Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Local Government and Housing Committee. The public items of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and all participants are taking part through video-conference. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation is available. The Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. Are there any declarations of interest?

Chair, can I draw Members' attention to my entry in the declaration of interests?

Thank you, Alun. Any others? Mabon.

Diolch yn fawr. Any others? No, okay. Let me just say, as well, that if for any reason I was to drop out of this meeting, the committee has agreed that Alun Davies MS will temporarily chair while I try to rejoin.

Okay, item 2 on our agenda today is an evidence session with the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales in relation to his report 'Homelessness Reviewed: an open door to positive change'. I'm very pleased to welcome Nick Bennett, the ombudsman, to committee this morning. Nick, I wonder if I might begin with a couple of general questions, and firstly by just asking you, really, what challenges you faced in carrying out this work during the pandemic. I've no doubt that would have created at least some difficulty. Perhaps you could just tell us what your experience was in that regard.

Well, it was challenging, Chair. But I think before I get into that, I would like to thank you, and you in particular, John, for actually providing the scrutiny for the 2019 Act, which actually gave me the powers to undertake this own-initiative study. It's the first in Great Britain—not the first in the UK; I'm afraid the Northern Irish beat us to it. But, obviously, that was a long process during the last Senedd. I'm grateful for the support that I had from you and other Members to make sure that we have these powers.

It was always my ambition to use those powers to give a voice to the voiceless—those people who perhaps don't know what their rights are, aren't aware of what they could do in terms of approaching our office if they experience maladministration or service failure. We felt that the homeless, perhaps during any period of time, deserved to be a priority in terms of looking at own-initiative issues, but particularly during the course of a pandemic, when we've had a lockdown, and the great importance to public and private health of people being able to have a front door. So, we felt it was appropriate that we looked at homelessness before we looked at any other area. 

Originally, we launched our consultation on this on Friday 13 March 2020. So, you can imagine it's taken quite a while for us to get where we are. We had to delay that consultation period. We were pleased we did get the support of Michael Sheen when we eventually did launch it in September of last year. Clearly, there was a nervousness amongst some of the authorities that we did investigate. We took a sample of local authorities in Wales. I hope that we've been able to demonstrate that we could reassure them that we were proportionate in the way that we undertook that work, but we did feel it was really important that it was done during the period of a public emergency because of the vulnerability that these individuals faced.

I'm grateful to the local authorities for the way in which they collaborated with us, but it did mean that there were some real issues in terms of methodology, in terms of data capture. So, the investigators, Bev Allen and Sarah Jones—Sarah gives her apologies, by the way; I'm afraid I'm on my own this morning. But they did a great job. They went over and beyond to make sure—they actually went into the offices of some of the authorities concerned to actually get the data files so that we could do a desk-based exercise. But we also had ambitions to actually get a lot more lived experience in the report, through focus groups and other methods. That wasn't possible because of the pandemic, but we're very grateful for the support that we've had from the likes of Llamau and Shelter, and there are a good deal of case studies and lived experience within the report. 

Okay, Nick. Thanks very much. As you said, it is a matter, when we're dealing with homelessness issues, of making sure that those without a voice are heard. And, as you said, you had particular difficulties, obviously, because of the pandemic. But, from what you say, nonetheless, you feel that you have had at least an adequate feeding in of views from those who are the service users, who are on the rough end of all of this, as it were. That's your view. 

Yes, and in the report—I think pages 46 to 50—you'll see some real-life experience there: a woman who couldn't go upstairs unaided put in a first-floor flat; a man who was sleeping on the floor who had to go through a review process and, eight weeks later, after the review, yes it's confirmed he is in housing need because he's still sleeping on the floor; a domestic abuse victim who was put to live near her abuser's family—a number of real-life experiences that I think reflect some of the issues. And I still think that this legislation is relatively new—2014. It's not that much older than my legislation. So, I think now is a good time for Government to be looking at what's worked and what hasn't worked so well in terms of the legislation. I've shared this report with the Minister, I've also shared the report with the auditor general so that he can take account of its findings in terms of local authority audits. But I was very, very keen to share it with you as a committee, to make sure that there is accountability and that this report helps inform the review of the legislation.

Yes. Okay. Thanks very much for that. Obviously, the committee was very mindful of the need to address these issues and that's why you're giving evidence today. We do take a very strong ongoing interest in homelessness and rough-sleeping in Wales, and we'll certainly stay on the case as far as that's concerned. Alun Davies.

Thank you very much, and thank you for the report. I'm very glad as well, by the way, that you've embarked on this piece of work; I think the powers that you now hold are important powers, and I very much welcome the work that you've been doing to deliver on the extension of those powers. I think that's a very, very good thing.

The report makes worrying reading at different levels. You say at one point that you thought that the role of staff in local authorities during the pandemic was exemplary; I think that's the word that you used. And at the same time, you said that there was a reasonable suspicion of systemic maladministration, and I was wondering how both those statements could be true.

That's a great question, Alun. Thank you. Am I trying to have the penny and the bun? No. I think there is a consistent line there. As I was saying earlier, this legislation is relatively new; it was ambitious at the time. If we look at the work that has been undertaken by local authority homelessness teams, particularly during the period of the pandemic, when effectively, priority need was suspended—I think Wrexham referred to a trebling of the work that they had to deal with during that period—then clearly, they have done an exemplary job. But if you look at the cases and the overall system—and I think that's what I'm trying to convey in terms of the report—then I don't think there's any inconsistency between celebrating what's been done, but also calibrating the system to make sure that where there's been maladministration or shortfalls, those are corrected in the future.

I think whilst those teams have done a great job within the system as it stands, there's a great deal more that needs to be done in terms of improving legislation, in some ways. I think an awful lot of this, though, actually, is about the culture that exists not just within those local authorities, but across a small country of three million people. We saw more work that could be done in terms of improving communications, processes, unacceptable delays. This inconsistency across the three local authorities that we investigated—I can't believe that if we've found this level of inconsistency within three local authorities, it doesn't exist, if we'd had the time to extend the investigation, in the other 19. There are issues there around human rights and equality as well, which I think are really important. So, whilst I think those teams have done a great job under very challenging systems, I think it's for all of us that are involved in trying to improve public policy to see what can be done to help drive out inconsistency, improve best practice, and remove—[Interruption.]

The dog is anxious to get onto the transcript—[Interruption.] Can I take you back on to some of those things? You didn't say there was maladministration; you said there was systemic maladministration, or reasonable suspicion of, and that's a different thing, of course, to maladministration that might be quite limited to one department or one process. And I'm interested, therefore, in that difference.

I'm also interested in where you think, or where you would assess, that problems lie. Is this about management? Is it about the local authorities? You've already described inconsistency. Inconsistency of delivery implies to me poor management, if I'm honest with you. Or is it a policy failure, where you've got a lot of good people trying hard to deliver policy that can't be delivered because the policy, the place the policy's been placed, is wrong?

I don't think it's necessarily an issue of poor management, but I do think that there are certainly issues there when it comes to good people who are perhaps faced with what they have found to be ambiguous guidance or legislation. So that's why, perhaps, the emphasis is more on systemic than individual areas of maladministration. And to be honest, I don't think that just emanates from the investigation that we did. I think if you look at other documentation, I think there's a reference there in terms of the homelessness action group, and the need for a greater level of partnership working between national and local actors. I think there is broader acceptance that for this policy area to be delivered more effectively, we have to iron out some of the inconsistencies that have emerged over the last six or seven years since the legislation was passed.

It's where that inconsistency lies, and where the point of failure lies, that is my concern. Because there are two leadership roles within local government—there's the professional leadership and there's the political leadership. If there's inconsistency of delivery, one of those must be responsible for that, or the structure in which local authorities are being asked to deliver the policy has to be the problem. And the more granular analysis that you've delivered, which I think is excellent in terms of its approach and its understanding, tells us that the issue is not about a single department or a single local authority. Therefore, it says to me that the reasons for this failure, such as it is, lie with the law, potentially, which is the responsibility of the Welsh Government, or they lie with the policy framework and the guidance given to local authorities, which again is the responsibility of the Welsh Government. I'm interested to understand where, with your experience and having undertaken this report, you would place responsibility for us to understand where you believe the problems lie. 

The structure of local government is the structure of local government that we currently have. It's not appropriate for me in this forum to make any comments about that. But I think, as you know, I tried to make my contribution to that in a previous existence. We are where we are. Some of these inconsistencies I certainly do think can be corrected with legislation. So, we've raised the issue of having a regulator. There are those who think that local government is regulated enough, thank you very much. I'm a localist. If we're going to have 22 local authorities, I think it's very important that there is freedom within those local authorities to reflect local priorities when it comes to perhaps tourism, leisure, economic development. We don't need 22 local economic development strategies that are the same. But when it comes to services, services for the most vulnerable, we wouldn't expect that level of inconsistency when it comes to cared-for children, we wouldn't expect it for the old and the vulnerable either, and I don't think it's acceptable it exists when it comes to homelessness services.

So, I think some of this is structural, some of it is legislative. Actually, to misquote Peter Drucker's 'culture eats strategy for breakfast'—and this is a bit rich for me given I made quite a fuss to get my own legislation—there are occasions, I think, where culture eats legislation for breakfast. I think a lot of work could be done here to make sure that there is a greater understanding of what's expected of the local authorities within the current and any future changes to legislation, to iron out some of these inconsistencies when it comes to the current system. Actually, that shouldn't take too long. But clearly there's evidence within this report of where that has been different in the three local authorities that we investigated. 

I completely concur with the points that you raise. We know each other from past days, and you know my views aren't very different to yours on many of these matters in terms of local government. But I'm anxious to answer the 'So what?' question, the 'Where next?' question. So, we have this report, which is an excellent report. It's an expansion of your role, which is also excellent, and I think we all appreciate and value that. But as politicians, of course, as a committee, we have to answer the question, 'What do we do with it—where do we go next?' I was actually quite impressed with the policy approach that Welsh Government seemed to be taking in the last 18 months. I think it's the Finnish example, isn't it, that they're using in order to approach this. I'll raise the quotation level to Aneurin Bevan—it's what I always go back to, of course—and what he said when he was a housing Minister was that the real test of policy isn't in the speeches of politicians, but the impact on the person in the street. And what you seem to be saying is that the rhetoric is good, the policy is fine, but the implementation doesn't deliver. Is that a fair summation? 

Look, I don't want to have a quotation dust-off here, but I think it was Lloyd George who said that there's no greater eloquence than action, Alun. So, I would say, looking at our recommendations here, many of them are action based, and some of them are not rocket science. Thirteen of the recommendations that we've made in this report are to local authorities to improve actions when it comes to better communication, processes, training. We've invited the other 19—we can't do more than that legally, because of statute—but we have invited the other 19 to take action now to improve consistency with the review process, to look at how they can work in partnership to further improve services, and also make sure that they're doing what they should be doing in terms of human rights and equalities. And I do invite as well the Welsh Government to review the Housing (Wales) Act 2014. I think they've indicated through their publication yesterday that that is going to happen through the high-level action plan. 

But there are things that can be done without waiting three or four years to review that legislation, and I think that's where the point about culture comes in. We talk in this report—. Others talk about a trauma-based approach, a psychologically informed approach. I'm sure you might feel, as a former Minister for local government, and other members of the panel as well who've had lots of local government experience, perhaps we need a psychologically informed approach between local and national actions here, because I don't think in a small country of 3 million people we have to wait too long to make sure that we review the appeal process, that we assess what needs to be done in terms of having a regulator in place. But, certainly, the standardisation of review documentation does not require primary legislation. 

No, you're absolutely right. Can I—

[Inaudible]—A brief question then, Alun. 

No, what I was going to suggest, John—I'm very content with all of that—but I think, as a committee, we need to have a conversation after this session with Nick about how we take these matters forward, because I think Nick has raised some very important points in the evidence he's given to us and in his report. And I think, as a committee, we need to consider how we wish to take that forward. 

Yes, we can certainly discuss that later in this meeting, Alun. Okay. And Sam Rowlands. 

Thanks, Chair. Morning, Nick. Thanks for your time so far this morning. I won't be attempting to quote Bevan, George, or, indeed, Drucker, as I think you did earlier. I was quite surprised to hear that this morning, but all good. You touched a moment ago on the high-level action plan Welsh Government published yesterday. I'm just wondering, in your opinion, how much of that will address the issues that you observed initially. 

I'll quote all morning, if you like. Wasn't it Zhou Enlai—'What was the impact of the French revolution? It's still too early to tell'? I haven't fully absorbed the high-level action plan that was published yesterday, but I have had a look at it. I certainly think there's nothing in there that would make me feel that it's impossible to do anything that's in this report but, as I say, there are a number of actions here that I think are simple, straightforward. The three local authorities that have been investigated have agreed to them. I've invited the other 19 to fully consider them as well. I think there are some actions for Government. Some of them do not require legislative action. Some of them clearly do. There's the commitment in that high-level action plan to do that, so I'm very pleased to see that there. 

Clearly, the creation of a regulator is a political question for Government—it's not a question for me—but I've raised it on the back of the evidence that we've seen from this report as one particular way forward. And when we launched the report on 6 October this year with the Chartered Institute of Housing; we had about 60 professionals from the world of housing. Mabon was there on the panel, and we also had Sam Parry from Conwy council as well. I felt that, to some extent, you're in the lion's den; we've published this report, we've referred to systemic maladministration. But I think, actually, most homelessness professionals, clearly they've been through a lot, done a lot of work. I think they welcome the fact that there's a torch being shone in this area and that we can see some further action that improves the systemic environment within which they operate.

Yes, I think that's fair. And then just coming back to your observations around culture, I'll ask a slightly different question later on, but, around culture, would it be fair to say that you think that—? Some of your observations are around ownership and perhaps people, individuals, being passed from pillar to post. And do you think, therefore, addressing ownership and responsibility would tackle a lot of the issues that you observed?

That's a great question. I think—. Some people might call it ownership. I'd like to think of it as empowerment. So, for example, the case example that I gave you earlier, where—. There's an overreliance on the review process, to some extent. Who is driving the reviews? Quite often we found that individual clients weren't aware of the review process, but it was officers making sure they were going down that route, because that was the easiest thing for them to do. If somebody presents and they're sleeping on a floor, why—why—make them go through a review process for another eight weeks? Surely we should have a system that empowers people to make those decisions earlier, rather than leave somebody in that position for another two months.

Okay, that's helpful. If I may, Chair, just a slightly different kind of question. So, looking ahead, obviously one of the challenges that, I suppose—. You mentioned Sam Parry earlier, but, housing officers and professionals, one of the challenges they have, of course, is finding suitable accommodation, appropriate accommodation, for people to move into on a more permanent basis. I'm very conscious of the laudable strategy Welsh Government are taking to ensure that all those moving into permanent accommodation are moving into EPC category C, so, you know, those higher energy-efficient properties. But just looking ahead, did you pick up any issues there with what further challenge that will present to those housing officers trying to move people into that permanent accommodation, because actually their pool of accommodation, which is already quite small, will actually become even smaller? Do you think that's something that should be addressed in a different way?

Yes, we've had a supply crisis for so long, and suitability of accommodation was, I'd say, probably the biggest driver in terms of the review process. It brings into question a number of issues, not just about environmental sustainability, but individual circumstance, people's support networks, a whole range of issues, and I think, again, scope to look at best practice, because whilst stock availability is restricted, we did come across some good practice in terms of choice-based lettings and other innovations in some of the authorities that we investigated, and I think that is relevant going forward, because clearly there was evidence there as well of people feeling that they had to accept what they felt was unsuitable accommodation, because otherwise they would receive nothing at all.

Thanks, Nick. Thanks, Chair.

Thank you very much, Sam. And Mabon.

Diolch yn fawr. And Carolyn.

Thank you, John. Can I just go back a little bit and just ask how the views of people with personal experience of homelessness fed into the investigation? It was pre pandemic, about three or four years ago, I volunteered through the church, I think it was with Housing Justice Cymru, working with the homeless to provide them with shelter over winter and food. It was with the homeless from Wrexham, and they were saying that they wouldn't use the night shelter there because it didn't feel safe. These were grown men. And also, they were concerned, if they were provided with accommodation, how they would be able to afford it in the future because universal credit didn't cover enough for them to maintain it and it was really difficult to get a job. It was the whole package they were concerned about, and support, at that time. So, that was pre pandemic. I saw from your study that there were some case studies there that were good, but I was really concerned about listening to the voices of people that are experiencing it at the time.

And then my questions—and just suitable accommodation as well. When I used to work as a postwoman and deliver mail around flats and accommodation, I saw some of them where people sometimes—the only single bedroom accommodation that they could be allocated was really poor and not suitable. There would be mothers, single mums with children, with prams and pushchairs and they couldn't get them up the steps, there was no room for storing items, and they were housed amongst people who had issues as well. Escaping that is really, really difficult. And then Sam and I were in a meeting recently with local authority leaders in north Wales and they were raising concerns about, again, having suitable accommodation for people, so I guess it's going over that. It's just the two-way feeding it in all the time for people that are struggling, but also, I don't know—so, it's just really raising that as a question.

My questions that I've been allocated today are about legislation and guidance. So, the complexity of homeless legislation and the challenges this presents for applicants and local authority officers, and how homeless legislation and the review process in particular can be improved, and how Welsh Government guidance can be improved. So, there seems to be a lot of firefighting at the moment, and I know it's really important.

Thank you, Carolyn. Actually, you started off with issues there about lived experience and then ended it on the question of improving legislation. Actually, those are very, very closely tied together, in my view, anyway. In the report, from pages 46 to about 50, we do include a lot of lived examples. We would have wanted to have more in there, and we did have ambitions to have focus groups and other issues, but because of the pandemic we couldn't do that. Shelter Cymru were absolutely fantastic; Llamau as well, they gave very good examples.

You'll see there issues like: Mrs X, who was able to climb and descent stairs only in a seated position, was placed in a first-floor flat, and, despite her health and safety concerns, she was informed that requesting a review would take another eight weeks so she had to stay there for that period; a client who fled domestic abuse was placed in accommodation near the family of her ex partner where she had to stay despite the fact she was living in fear; a single mother with a single son who'd been associated with an undesirable group were put to live next door to a member of that group despite the fact the police had been involved and all the rest of it.

So, actually, these lived experiences take us back to some of the questions you're asking about the legislation. We needed to see more overt evidence that human rights and equalities considerations were being taken account of by casework officers when it came to the suitability of accommodation. These examples demonstrate where that wasn't happening, so I do think there's a case, going back to Alun's previous challenge as well, for improving the legislation so that there is an overt expectation on local authorities to be doing more of that.

But, again, I want to emphasise that for me it's not about allocating—to quote Tom Jones—praise or blame, but I do think it's about making sure that we can stand back strategically, take stock of what was ambitious legislation seven years ago, see what's working and what isn't working so well, and make sure that the system is as good as it possibly can be for the future for this very vulnerable section of society.

So, sorry, just to go back, somebody is allocated, it has ticked a box and they're suitably homed. Even having housing officers or just somebody going there, just ensuring that everything is still fine once they're in that accommodation, is such an important issue then, isn't it, so they've got that—just to make sure that they're okay and they are suitably housed?

Yes, and I think as well that one of the issues that the report touches on is about support services. Again, I think this is something that's been raised in the high level action report yesterday. I think the phraseology is something like, 'The right people in the right homes with the right support'. Great—you know, we'd all agree with that, but I think the challenge now is to make sure that that is delivered. Going back to the challenges of Alun Davies, Lloyd George and Aneurin Bevan, where is the action going to be to make sure that that policy ambition is real?

There were examples of that happening. Shelter services are fantastic. One of the investigated authorities has developed a hub where, through partnership working—again, 'partnership' is policy language, but this was policy action, so you did have practical arrangements within a community on a hub basis that were making sure that people were receiving the support that they required, dependent upon their circumstances.

So, again, if it can happen in one local authority, can we make sure that that level of support is available to the vulnerable in all 22 to make sure that that high level action plan is delivering real support to really vulnerable people across Wales?

Can I just ask you one final question? Do you believe that the cuts to universal credit and, also, the bedroom tax have created an issue of supply because there's a shortage of single-bedroomed accommodation? You can't provide the two-bedroomed accommodation for a single person, because there's just not enough funding to cover that.

Well, I'm going to have to discipline myself here. I might have views on universal credit and the bedroom tax, and other issues, but we didn't investigate it in that case. We're veering into politics there, so I'm going to restrict my views to what we investigated, but I hope you understand why.

Okay.

Okay, that's fine. Joel.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Nick, for attending today's evidence session. I just wanted to pick your brains, really, on the recommendations you've made in your report. I know earlier in the questioning you mentioned that they were straightforward and achievable, but I must admit I was quite surprised by some of them—and it's no criticism of you now—but by how obvious or basic some of the recommendations were, like easy-to-read factsheets and making sure the signposting was clear and effective for everyone. I was just wondering what your initial thoughts were on that. Were you surprised by that lack of the basics there, or is that something that just comes with local authorities, sometimes—the basics just aren't what's thought about, if that makes sense? I just wanted to pick your brains on that, to start with.

Yes, I guess creating an easy-read version of some guidance isn't the highest level recommendation I've made in the last seven and a half years, Joel, to be honest. It does appear quite basic, but I think, a number of the issues for local authorities were about making sure that there was effective communication with the client group because of some of the barriers that they faced. So, that's why those issues are in there.

There are other issues that we've raised as well, which I do think are higher level in terms of rights, human rights, equality issues, other issues as well. Some issues there as well for the other 19 in terms of making sure there's an all-Wales level to discuss consistency in the review process. Gwyn Alf Williams—I'm flying out the quotes today—'We are a community of communities.' What must it take to make sure that some of these issues be they basic, or slightly higher level, are exercised across the 22 local authorities in Wales? Why is it sometimes that good practice is such a bad traveller? 

Since I published this report, I've had contact from Chris Field, who's the ombudsman for Western Australia. And he's going to now undertake this—inspired by Wales, Welsh good practice. He's going to undertake a similar review of homelessness in Western Australia. If we can make sure there's an exchange of good practice at that level, then surely we can make sure that everybody is undertaking an easy read, in all 22 local authorities. 

Well, with that in mind then about sharing best practice, and you mentioned that it's a difficult travel companion—

Traveller.

Yes. How do you think that could be best achieved then, in the sense of sharing that practice? Is it having that all-Wales board to discuss it, or more on a local level, like regional, Cardiff and the Vale, Rhondda Cynon Taf? And I should declare I am an RCT councillor, so I brought them in, so, sorry about that. And is it better that way then, on a more regional level?

Well, as I say, there is an array of different fora there, I think, at regional and at national level. So, I just think it's important that, whatever level, this then happens, that it's rolled out, that the learning is there. Perhaps some of these differences were more obvious to us because we took one local authority from north Wales, one from west Wales, and one from the south. You might think there's a greater level of consistency within region—we're not saying that that's impossible—but I do think that, really, a lot of this is not rocket science. It should be possible to make sure that this is shared wisely.

I sometimes worry as well; this was a point, I think it made Mabon laugh when we launched this back in October. There are only two things that the Welsh hate—success and failure. People are almost scared of, you know, tall poppy syndrome or whatever else. But, I think, if a local authority is doing well, communicating well and dealing effectively with this vulnerable group, delivering social justice, they have a duty to make sure that that good work is being shared with others, because, ultimately, it's not about local authority rivalry or whatever else; it has to be about a culture of continuous improvement and making sure that the best service is available to the most vulnerable. 

Perfect. With that then, what's been the initial response from the local authorities or stakeholders to your recommendations? Do they see it as achievable? Do they see them as achievable, or has there been some reluctance to do it, or what's been your feeling?

It's been positive, Joel. The three investigated authorities have responded positively. We've also had a positive response from the housing Minister. And, as I alluded to earlier, and Mabon is here as my witness, we did launch this in front of 60—it was a virtual launch, but it was done in front of 60 professionals from across Wales, and again there, I think they had an opportunity—Mabon, I think we were there for a good two and a half, three hours, where they had ample opportunity to raise any issues that they had either with our methodology, our findings, or indeed, our recommendations. 

And I think there's an issue there as well in terms of perhaps a further conversation, in terms of where this ambiguity or variation or lack of consistency arises across Wales. We do try and work with bodies in jurisdiction when it comes to our recommendations. I'm not going to impose recommendations on a public body, particularly during a COVID crisis, that are absolutely pie in the sky, that are unachievable, that can't be delivered. And that doesn't just apply to this own-initiative, but any public interest report we do, any other recommendations that we make. We make sure that they're realisable and that we're not putting anything up there that's going to mismanage the patience of the complainant, of the service user or, indeed, of the relevant public body. And I think that type of approach is about culture again, isn't it, in terms of, how can we work together at a local and a national level to make guidance as consistent as possible. How can we make sure that there's a human rights approach? How can we make sure that equalities are fully considered? What can we do to make sure that choice, as far as possible, given the that restrictions exist, are rolled out to this vulnerable group? How do we communicate most effectively? These are issues that require sharing but action.

We've only got a couple of minutes left, I'm afraid, Joel, but do you want to quickly raise the issue of a possible regulator?

Yes, funnily enough, that's what I was going to come to, given Nick's comments just then. And I'm conscious you said earlier in the discussion that it wasn't necessarily a question for you; it was more of a political decision or discussion. But what are your thoughts on something like a possible housing or homelessness regulator? What would you see as the benefits of that, then, and the potential role that they could have?

Well, it doesn't have to be a regulator—I'm not absolutely married to that concept. It's a political question, but on the back of what we've seen in this report, we need some action to make sure that local and national actors are held to account, that there is support and challenge and more consistency. A regulator is one way of doing that. There may well be other solutions, but I think it's the solution that is the most important. If we look at local government services, there's certainly ample regulation around other statutory services, and it would not be inconsistent with the way in which other services are currently regulated in Wales.

Okay. Thank you, Nick, and thank you, Joel. Nick, thank you very much for giving evidence to committee today. You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy, in the usual way. And thank you for demonstrating the good use of your powers to undertake own-initiative reports, Nick, because I think most people would agree homelessness and rough-sleeping are huge challenges for us, and it's right, I think, that you recognise their significance and used your powers to examine better ways of delivering vital services for people in that position. Can I also wish you all the best, because I know that your extended tenure, Nick, comes to an end in the spring of next year? So, thank you very much for your work in the role over the years.

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you for your support and your challenge, and thank you to all the committee for listening to me this morning. Do you want me to go now, or do you want me to stay? I think Alun mentioned having a further conversation; is that for now or—?

No, we'll have a further discussion as a committee later on, Nick, and then we may well write to you, or get in touch in some other way as a result of that. But, no, that's fine for now, Nick. Thank you very much.

Okay. Right.

Diolch.

Okay, before we break, we have item 3 on our agenda today, which is the motion to resolve to exclude the public from items 4, 7, 8, 9 and 10 of this meeting, under Standing Order 17.42. Is the committee content so to do?

Yes. I move, Chair.

Okay. Thank you very much. We will break briefly, and resume at 10 o'clock—five minutes. Thank you very much.

Okay, we move on to item 5 on our agenda today: our inquiry into second homes and evidence session 2. I'm very pleased to welcome to committee this morning councillor Dafydd Meurig, deputy leader of Gwynedd Council; Heledd Fflur Jones of the planning policy team—the leader of that team for Anglesey and Gwynedd joint planning policy unit; and Gareth Jones, assistant head of department of the environment department of Gwynedd Council. Thank you for coming along to give evidence to committee today.

Perhaps I might begin with some general questions before bringing in other committee members. Firstly, I wonder if you could set out to committee what you see as the cultural, social and economic impact that holiday homes, second homes and short-term lets can have on rural communities. Who would like to being? Dafydd.

Diolch yn fawr, Dafydd. I'm sorry, I should have invited you, really, to introduce your report. Is there anything further you'd like to say, Dafydd, or indeed Gareth or Heledd, in terms of the report itself and what you'd like to bring to the attention of committee?

Yes, please, Heledd.

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd. There is much there that I know members of the committee will reflect upon and ask questions on as we move through this session. Just a couple of other questions from me before I bring in other committee members, and it may be that, perhaps, Dafydd might offer some views on these matters. First of all, the economic benefits that holiday homes can bring. We know, don't we, that it can reach a tipping point, which I think is a phrase that's often used, where the pressures and the negative impacts on local communities of too many second homes, too many short-term holiday lets, they can get to that tipping-point stage where it's obviously very negative for local communities in many ways. But, short of that, do you see economic benefits that can come from holiday homes in a local area?

Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Dafydd. That's very clear. I wonder if I might ask as well about some of the wider challenges, really, for local authorities in delivering affordable housing for their local communities, and sustaining their local communities by having an adequate provision of affordable housing, because obviously, there are widespread challenges involved there that are more general, perhaps, than the particular issues that we're dealing with today.

Diolch yn fawr, Dafydd. Let me bring in Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Absolutely.

Diolch yn fawr, Gareth. Mabon, are you content for the time being, or—?

Yes, Heledd, please.

Gareth.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Gareth. Okay, Mabon, we'll move on to Sam Rowlands then. 

Thanks, Chair. Thanks Heledd, Gareth and Councillor Dafydd. We appreciate your time this morning and the presentation as well. The comments just made there, actually, Gareth, segue quite nicely into what I want to pick up on, which is about where you think best policy should be made, as in, at which level. Should it be at a Welsh Government level, local authority level or somewhere else? So, it's where you think policy should be created, and then perhaps where policy should be acted upon and implemented, at which level. Reading through your report, the six recommendations that you produce in the report, I was wondering, with those in mind, where you think that decision making sits best in terms of policy, and then acting upon that policy.   

Okay, who would like to begin? 

Heledd. 

Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Heledd. Gareth, did you want to come in?

Diolch yn fawr. Sam.

Thanks. I'll just go a little bit further on that, because there's obviously local as in local authority, and there's hyperlocal, isn't there? The example that is often and rightfully shared is the Abersoch challenge—you know, close to around 50 per cent holiday homes, and then the broader definition of holiday and second homes—whereas in Caernarfon, it's 0.5 per cent. Whilst in Gwynedd there may be challenges across some areas in the county, it's clearly not anywhere near the same, equally distributed across the county, and actually there may be an argument to actually encourage some holiday homes in Caernarfon to support those tourism businesses there—obviously, the castle et cetera, and the history that's there. So, it's understanding how hyperlocal you think some of the decision making should be as well, and policy implementation. But perhaps that's something else just to come on to.

In terms of another question, obviously within all this, there is this—. Councillor Dafydd mentioned the benefits, also, that holiday homes in particular can bring to communities and the jobs they sustain, the supply chain they support, the businesses that are established because of them. I was just wondering how you think we best get the tone right in terms of implementing and—. From a local authority level, how do we get the tone right in terms of the future implementation of some of these potential policies, and how do we maintain that welcome that we love to give people in Wales?

Yes, please.

Thanks for that. Is it immoral, then, that I stay in a second home in Cardiff during my week?

Thank you, Chair. 

Okay, Sam. I think Gareth just wanted to come in. Gareth.

Okay. Thank you very much, Gareth, that's very useful. Joel.

Thank you, Chair, and thanks, everyone, for today's evidence session. I've got to apologise, I've been having issues with my internet connection in the office, and at one point I did disappear, so apologies if you've already answered these questions. I know it's already been touched upon, about taxation and the second homes policy, and I just wanted to touch upon what the point of it is, if that makes sense. I know Councillor Meurig said earlier in the discussion that the increased council tax on second homes doesn't raise enough to help with affordable housing, really—it doesn't really raise enough to deal with that issue. So, what, necessarily, then, is the point of having that increase? Is it just to dissuade people from purchasing a second home, in the hopes then that it'll price them out of the market, if that makes sense? I just wanted to pick your brains about that first.

Dafydd.

I don't know who this might be better aimed at, but I know in one of the previous evidence sessions we had Dr Simon Brooks give evidence. He's done a report for the Welsh Government looking at this issue. One of the things that he touched upon was whether or not self-catering businesses should be exempt from small business rates relief. I was just wondering what the view is, then, of the panel, as they say, on that—whether or not that would actually have an impact. I suppose that one of the issues that has been raised in the discussion is that movement of properties between council tax and business rates, and that seems quite fluid in some cases. I think Gareth mentioned there new properties coming onto the market that are automatically snapped up for holiday lets—not new properties, but affordable properties in affordable areas coming on to the market that are automatically snapped up for holiday lets. I just wanted to pick people's brains about that as well, then. Sorry. 

Okay. Dafydd.

If I could just come back in there on taxation, and I'm speaking with my RCT councillor tax hat on, I know that they've brought in changes in terms of empty homes, in the sense that there used to be in place here—I'm losing the term now—where you had like a discount where for first six months you didn't pay any council tax whatsoever. That's what RCT have recently brought in, but I know in some local authorities, if it's an empty home, some don't actually charge council tax at all. And I was just wondering what sort of steps you've taken there in terms of empty homes as well. Obviously, it's a linked question, I suppose, but in a different field. I'm just wondering what your views are, and the steps you've taken there then as well.

Thank you. 

Okay, Joel. Thank you very much. And, Alun Davies. 

Dafydd.

'Yr Hen Ffordd Gymreig o Fyw', 'Derwen Gam'.

Okay. As a committee, I'm sure we'll follow up with a letter, in any event, to gauge evidence. Okay, thank you very much. We move on, then, to Carolyn.

Thank you. This has been really useful. Thanks for the presentation, Heledd and Gareth. Good to see you again, Dafydd. I met with Partneriaeth Ogwen in Bethesda, and they were looking at having a scheme where the community owned lets. They said, 'If we're going to have Airbnb, we might as well have accommodation that we could let out', and then any funds could stay within that community, or the social partnership. And I put them in touch with Welsh Government. Do you know, Dafydd, if that's been taken forward as a project, as a pilot? And if not, perhaps some of the funding that's been made available could be used for that as a pilot.

Also, Simon Brooks said in his report that by restricting the amount of houses for holiday accommodation—I don't just mean in your area, but across Wales—then you're growing the value of that accommodation, so that people—. Is it fair for people that own their own homes, that they might not have such a value? So, just your views on that, please.

And also, I've got just a few questions regarding the data again. Heledd, your presentation, all the amount of work that's gone into this is amazing, so it was really, really useful. But just to ask, please, if there is sufficient data modelling on the economic impact of second homes on the local economy, tourism jobs, house prices, et cetera, and how the pandemic and Brexit have affected the debate about second homes, and how real are counter-urbanisation pressures where people have moved from urban to rural areas?

So, I know price increases have gone up rapidly, not just I think on second homes, but just the availability now of houses; people have moved also from urban areas maybe across the border into Wales to live in a rural area, because the pandemic's changed where they want to live, where they can work from home in beautiful surroundings in Wales, and I've seen the price rocket in north-east Wales by 40 per cent as people want to live in rural or semi-rural areas. And then what Wales can learn from other parts of the UK and other parts of the world affected by the issue. So, quite a bit there, sorry.

Okay. Thanks, Carolyn. We are over time, I know, so if it is possible to answer very succinctly, please do.

Okay. Heledd. 

Okay. Thank you very much. Okay, Carolyn, thanks very much. Okay. Well, it just remains for me to thank all three of you—Dafydd, Heledd and Gareth—for coming before the committee to give evidence this morning. It's very, very useful, and we do understand that you are at the sharp end, as it were, of these issues. So, thank you very much. You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in due course. Diolch yn fawr. 

Okay, the next item before committee today, then, is item 6, papers to note. Paper 1 is a letter from the Minister for Climate Change to the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee in relation to the legislative consent motion on the Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Bill. Paper 2 is also a letter from the Minister for Climate Change in relation to the same LCM. Paper 3 is a letter from Jonathan Edwards MP in relation to incomplete housing estates and the outsourcing of building control. And paper 4 is from Rhys ab Owen MS in relation to cladding and the LCM on the Building Safety Bill. We will be discussing these matters in due course today. Are Members content to note the papers for now? You are. Thank you very much. 

In that case, we will move to private session, and we will get confirmation shortly that that is the case.