Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good afternoon. Can I welcome Members and the public to this afternoon's meeting of the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee? As Members know, we are operating in a virtual mode at this point in time, and as such, in accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I as Chair have determined that the public are to be excluded from today's meeting in order to protect public health. Of course, the public are able to watch the proceedings live on www.senedd.tv, and the proceedings are available in both English and in Welsh. In the event of me losing my connection to my broadband, which sometimes plays up, we have agreed that Huw Irranca-Davies will act as temporary Chair in my absence, either until I am reconnected to the meeting or the meeting ends, whichever is the first to be arrived at. At this point in time, does any Member wish to declare an interest? Huw.

I was trying to unmute myself there, Chair. Yes, just a standard declaration on the three committees that I chair for the First Minister with a European interest. Beyond that, nothing.

Thank you. We've also received apologies from Alun Davies this afternoon, and we welcome Jack Sargeant to the committee, who is substituting. I know Jack has been a Member of this committee before, so he'll be fully aware of the issues we'll be discussing. 

With that under control, we now move on to the next item on the agenda, which is a scrutiny session with the Deputy Minister in relation to the international strategy. Can I welcome Deputy Minister Jane Hutt to this afternoon's meeting? With her this afternoon are Andrew Gwatkin, director of international trade and relations; and Paula Walsh, deputy director of international relations. Welcome, this afternoon. We will go straight into questions if that's okay with you, Deputy Minister, because the international strategy was laid before us in the final version probably about a year ago now, just over a year, but since then of course we've left the EU, we've finished the transition period, and we're now in the direction of travel, which I think we want to explore with the Welsh Government, as to how it sees its position in the future. In the questions, therefore, we will be focusing very much upon that strategy and where that strategy will take us in the future. So, we'll start off with Dai Lloyd. Dai.

Diolch yn fawr, Dai, and of course, as the Chair's just said, the international strategy was actually published January last year, just before the events took over, which none of us would have been predicting, I expect, at that time. I have to say that, in terms of the past year, it has been a challenge, and the priority—. Very quickly, our officials and Ministers and my predecessor saw the need—and the First Minister—to use our international strategy to share learning, to help combat the virus and the impact in Wales, very much to show our global responsibilities, and I think that does come over in the report to the committee, which you received a couple of weeks [correction: days] ago, about the overseas offices and how they've played such an important role in terms of personal protective equipment and indeed ensuring that key people could come back to Wales.

But, just in terms of a bit of an overview, I would say that we've moved online, we've gone virtual on many of the activities that were planned for this past year, so physical events moved online. And, in fact, some of those, I would say—and we've all experienced this—have actually resulted in greater participation in many respects. For example, our annual Diwali celebrations, which I actually took part in because I'd taken on the responsibility at that point, they actually reached out to a far wider audience. We couldn't engage in the way we often do over at the Wales Millennium Centre, if you've all been there on many occasions. But also, the fact was that external events have been deferred, where we would have had a physical presence, such as the World Expo. I mean, that's been postponed until later on this year, and of course we've got plans to take part, with our partners, in that. But also, I think the action plans that we planned to publish, we did publish, and one of them is the all-important action plan on international relations through public diplomacy. It's what's called by some a 'soft power', but it's about international relations, isn't it, and how we engage culture, sport and diplomacy in our global contribution.

There are many things that are already happening today that are a culmination of a whole year of work, like the Wales-Ireland joint statement and action plan. But also, I was able to take part, as indeed was the First Minister, in the year-long Wales in Germany celebration campaign earlier on this year, in January. So, that was a very important indication that we spent the year that was last year, even through the pandemic, working to ensure that we had the Wales in Germany 2021 celebration campaign launched earlier on this year. So, many engagements with our priority regional relationships are being maintained through the pandemic and a number of calls and diplomatic visits have all gone online, including the First Minister meeting the President of the Basque Country last month. I'm meeting the State Minister for Baden-Württemberg later this week, but also I've met all four new envoys—I'm sure that you know and are aware of them—and I'm working with developing our diaspora.

I just want to perhaps finally say on this point, as we're in Fairtrade Fortnight, that, actually, I went to a climate change coffee morning on Saturday morning to celebrate the work of Jenipher, the coffee grower who came to Wales last year, and the story that she told about what life has been like for her over the last year was extraordinary—the impact of COVID-19 on her, her business, her country and her community. But, with our support, Jenipher's Coffi is now part of a very important Wales initiative, and I'm sure that you will all be drinking Jenipher's coffee and taking this forward, because we have our Coffee 2020 project. But also, we have moved, in the Wales and Africa programme, to give small grants, which have helped with responding to the pandemic.

So, I've cantered through it a bit, Dai, in terms of the work that we have been able to do, but I think getting those action plans published has been vitally important and it has shown that, actually, we can deliver on the international strategy; we have done and we've done it differently, but we've kept to what we aimed to do and have done it in a different way. 

As I hope I indicated in my opening response to your question, the strategy hasn't changed in itself. The aims and ambitions have not changed, and they mustn't. Surely, it was one of the most important demonstrations throughout the year that we did not move away from our global responsibility, our outward-looking Wales, our international strategy. And of course, I know that you have sought, as a committee, to ensure that we are sticking to what our aims and ambitions were, because it is about raising Wales's profile on the international stage. Of course, we've had to review, perhaps, and adapt the way we deliver that strategy, but the commitments that we've had to grow the economy by increasing exports, attracting inward investment and establishing Wales as a globally responsible nation have been clear in terms of our aims and ambitions.

The impact of COVID, of course, has had an impact on the outcomes. But, we've adapted our approach and I think our five action plans actually set out so clearly what it was that you should expect from us, what Wales should expect from us and what our partners across the world would expect from us. And, actually, we've also had the EU transition, haven't we, as well, to contend with through this, but our partners have worked with us to deliver that changed approach, and, also, to try and, as I said at the outset, make sure that we could play our role globally in terms of responding to the pandemic, not just through grant giving in Wales and Africa, but also, I think, as I said earlier on, some of those good examples from what our offices overseas have been able to achieve. 

Obviously, over the past year, leading up to leaving the European Union, a great deal of the work that I've already indicated that's taken place, particularly leading to the Ireland-Wales shared statement and joint action plan—that takes a lot of diplomacy, that soft power work, in terms of international relations, and, indeed, the Wales in Germany work as well, which, throughout the whole of 2020-21, is having such an important role to play. Of course, during the year, meeting with so many people, particularly in the Wales in Germany context—it's about the importance of us not just sustaining, but actually growing our relationships in the light of Brexit. Actually, throughout the year, last year, everything was couched in the prospect of exiting the European Union.

I think the work that we've done as well, in terms of soft power diplomacy, which is not just in terms of the EU, but across the world, with looking to our diaspora—and, of course, we've got an action plan on our diaspora in terms of engagement. It's critically important because of their role that they can play in promoting Wales across the world—and, also, the role of the envoys as well. The fact that we've got GlobalWelsh now developing a global business diaspora network has been crucially important as well. But I think the work that we've done, just in terms of the impact of the EU transition—again, it's very important that our ambitions haven't changed, and that we've been able to deliver on developing those quality relationships, regional relationships, which are so important as part of that action plan, and the fact that we have got work that is being undertaken with those particular regional relationships that we want to develop.

So, I think, if you look at the overview of the impact of the relationships and the work that we've done to recognise the end of EU transition, actually, there have been some very good results. We've got the Oracle data centre operations in Newport, investment from Blue Gem Wind and NoviOcean, and, also, the PerkinElmer expansion to increase COVID-19 testing capacity. These are all important, but we'll have to see, obviously, what is going to emerge as a result of the impact of EU transition and, indeed, the pandemic on investment flows. We'll see that as we look to the results that will come forward in June, in terms of inward investments, and see what impact there has been in terms of our relationships and that all-important development, recognising the impact of EU transition. But closer relationships with all of those sectors, priority sectors and centres of excellence have been a good indication of what we have been able to achieve. 

Well, of course, we had a plan. We were clear that we wanted to deliver a series of action plans. They are delivery plans, after all, in terms of the international strategy. We wanted to demonstrate what it meant for our partners and for the people of Wales. We had that plan to publish them before the end of the year. In practice, and as you look at the plans and consider and scrutinise them, most of the actions in the plans aren't affected by the EU-UK transition deal. I think what the plans do is lay out very clearly how we can build our relationships post EU with our EU partners and, of course, globally in terms of our partners across the world.

Diolch, Gadeirydd.

Thank you, Dai. We'll move on to some questions—Minister, you've actually covered many of the points in your opening answers, but some of them we may want to go into in a little more depth, so you may find some of those questions being asked again. Jack. 

Thank you, Chair, and good afternoon, Minister. As the Chair has stated there, we have talked a little bit about these issues today, but I wonder, Minister, whether you could a provide an overview of the impact of the pandemic and the end of the EU transition period on the international strategy's centres of excellence. 

I think the work that has been undertaken in terms of those priority sectors and centres of excellence I've already outlined, to a certain extent. I think, as I said earlier on, it is going to be difficult to see how the investment flows have been impacted for us in Wales and the economy as a whole. Quite clearly, there was uncertainty last year surrounding EU transition as well as the global COVID-19 pandemic. But, I think the fact that the impact of COVID-19, just focusing on that for a moment—it hasn't actually stalled the work, particularly the diplomacy and soft power work. That has been crucially important, and there's been a real willingness to develop those priority regional relationships and networks, not just from us but from our partners. I think I mentioned earlier on the fact that the relationship with the Basque Country—I think I might have, even, myself been looking forward to the prospect of a visit. A physical visit can't take place, but the fact is that the First Minister is meeting with the President of the Basque Country and I'm meeting, as I said, with the State Minister for Baden-Württemberg later this month, just to discuss a number of topics that are so important to the future and for the future of our engagement with EU countries and other priority regions. I think, also, that we've got to recognise that we've got to promote our sectors of strength and centres of excellence to ensure we do hit the ground running when the markets begin to recover and when we can see, from the statistics that come forth in June, the overall results for inward investment. But, we have to see that those notable successes are what we need to build on. We've developed further content in the particular sectors where we've got web platforms, we've got a comprehensive suite of inward investment propositions, and they will be used as part of the way we engage through the international strategy.

Thank you, Minister. Just two points from me. One you may not want to go into—you may have already covered it, substantially—but whether or not you'd like to provide a further progress update on the short-term activities intended for 2020-2021, as outlined in the diaspora engagement plan. And whether you can just confirm, Minister, whether the Welsh Government does intend to publish a separate action plan for its priority country relationships that you've mentioned.

There are some exciting things emerging, some of which come out of the short-term activities and some that come out of the St David's Day activities. For example, in our diaspora engagement work, we're going to have a Welsh personalities initiative. We're talking about personalities rather than celebrities, but they are many of our Welsh celebrities. So, for example, Matthew Rhys, Luke Evans and Cerys Matthews—they're actually participating in activities to raise our profile internationally. They're part of the St David's Day campaign. Actually, we are looking to ways in which we can involve some of our Welsh celebrities in the cultural and sporting arena as well, with the Euros, the Olympics and the Rugby World Cup—depending on what happens this year in terms of some of those activities—and then into 2023 for the Rugby World Cup, of course.

There are very important short-term activities in the diaspora engagement plan. Our Welsh envoy initiative—I've met with all four of our envoys, who all played an important part last year. Again, we met virtually. What they've been doing is things like talking to the Seren network conference, and that's great for our young people, who actually get that international connection. There's the Emerging Tech Fest 2021, trade missions, of course—virtual trade missions that are taking place, all doing St David's Day activity. And, of course, quite a lot of worldwide Welsh business diaspora networks will really be taking off this week. Those are the sort of short-term but big-impact events that are taking place.

Thank you, Chair. No more questions from me, just to add how timely it is to build on the back of the excellent victory on the weekend. So, happy St David's Day to all.

Thank you, Jack. Minister, before I move on, you mentioned the three centre of excellence areas as cyber security, if I remember rightly, semiconductor wafer production and the creative sectors. Now, two of those, you could technically argue, COVID and EU transition have not badly affected, but the creative agenda definitely has been affected, both by COVID and by the fact of the agreement restricting some of our musicians from being able to travel across Europe. So, are you rethinking the way in which you can support those sectors, particularly that creative sector, as part of the international strategy, so that we can help it come out of COVID but, at the same time, look at the issues affecting the ability of some our excellent performers to be able to actually work in Europe?

That's a really important point, Chair. I might bring Paula in at this point to comment on that. What's been so interesting is that, for example, the Wales in Germany celebrations have included a lot of cultural events. What's very hard is that we know, or we're beginning to learn, that you can't sing well over Zoom, can you? Last year, we were supporting—and I'll ask Paula to comment on this—the Urdd and Alabama young people singing together. It was a really important event, and they still were managing to do some things virtually, but it's very, very limited compared with—. For our artists and our creative sector, internationally and globally renowned, they just haven't been able to not just perform, travel, perform, but also it's their livelihoods, isn't it? It's their careers, their prestige.

So, we've been able to do some soft, virtual work in the creative and cultural sector, and it's an unknown in terms of the sporting sector as well, even for this year, what will happen and what we can do. I think we just have got to be very grateful, in a sense, that those priority sectors that are critical to us have been performing very well. You know, I've mentioned them already in terms of the Oracle data centre, et cetera—cyber security is crucial. But then, the marine energy in Pembrokeshire as well: Blue Gem Wind and NoviOcean. So, I will ask Paula if she would like to add anything on the creative, cultural sector front.

I think just to say that we've been working really closely with our stakeholders. An example of that is for our Wales in Germany initiative we created back in July a stakeholder group that was very strongly represented with the cultural sector, as well as business and science innovation, and talking about how do we deliver in this different environment, and we've been working with them around what that looks like. So, we've been talking to Wales Arts International, for example, around the strategic relationship that at the moment is looking at virtual, but is looking ahead to the future about what that looks like and how do we work more closely together to deliver more impact.

But we've seen a lot of the cultural organisations working with us for these initiatives online. The Minister mentioned the Urdd as well as the Urdd-Alabama initiative. It was launched in November, but again with St David's Day it was happening as part of the festival this weekend. They've also been part of the launch of the Wales-Ireland statement with TG Lurgan. Clearly, it's challenging. There are different ways of doing things. But we are working virtually, working digitally with those stakeholders, and talking just really closely to them about how do we work around this and how do we work through this and what does that support look like into next year as well.

Thank you for that, Paula. Minister, one of the questions that I asked was also about the ability to travel across Europe, and with the agreement that came through between the EU and the UK it could be one of the issues in people not being able to do that and perform. Are you in discussions with the UK Government to look at how you can get that amended to allow musicians and other performers to actually travel across Europe and actually undertake what is their life and their livelihoods?

Well, I haven't engaged myself in these issues, but I will obviously share this with the First Minister, particularly, to see, because this is very much related to how we move out and recover from the pandemic, isn't it, and how we also work on a four-nations basis as well, in terms of these challenges. We have got to see this as part of our recovery, because of the hugely adverse impact that it's had on that sector, on the creative industries sector in particular, and the fact that—. I mean, I've mentioned some stars today who are actually doing things. They'll be doing things virtually for us to celebrate Wales across the world. But we just need to ensure that our artists, our singers, our musicians, our actors, our producers, that they can take advantage and travel across the world as soon as it is safe to do so within the recovery from the pandemic.

Can I ask you just—? I appreciate that, but please remember also that part of this is the EU-UK agreement issue that we're talking about here, and how that didn't allow that to happen, in Europe, where a lot of our performers, individual musicians tend to perform an awful lot.

Well, obviously—

I'll move on now to Nick.

Diolch, Cadeirydd, and afternoon, Minister. Just building on from some of the questions that Jack Sargeant asked regarding priority regional relationships, can I ask you for clarification on the position regarding Quebec? Is that now—? I've got it on the chart in front of me, and I see that one of the medium-term objectives, in terms of Quebec, is to promote and share learning on the Welsh Government's approach to implementing sustainable development and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. So, if you could just give us a bit more information about the place of Quebec in your strategy.

Thank you very much, Nick. Of course, I didn't mention this at the beginning, but I was very glad to play my part as a member of this committee a couple of years back, and I remember with yourself, Chair, particularly, and possibly any of the Members going and discussing in Brussels with our colleagues from Quebec how important our relationship would be. And, of course, the international strategy sets out our intention to prioritise certain relationships within those three European Union regions of Brittany, the Basque Country and Flanders. But, also, notwithstanding other international networks as well—priority for Europe—and that picks up the earlier point that the Chair's just made in terms of acknowledging the challenges that we've got with the UK Government. But also looking at that growing relationship with Quebec, the Welsh Government, obviously, in Montreal and the signing of the declaration of intent. It did make sense for us to add Quebec as a fourth priority region when we were developing the action plan. I think that's another reason why it was so important to progress with those action plans and publish them when we did later last year. 

So, our plan for our co-operation is quite clear in terms of the three European regions, but the declaration of intent with Quebec is strong and firm, and what's good news is that we've just completed a joint Wales-Quebec call for projects. And that's actually supported by collaborative funding from both sides, and significant opportunities have been identified. So, there's a real appetite for close working and shared learning. So, that, I hope, gives you some indication not only just commitment, but progress in terms of Quebec becoming a fourth priority region. 

Great, thanks. And turning to the relationship between the UK and the EU and the trade co-operation agreement, I understand there's a review going on into the impact of that at the moment. Can you update us on where that review is, and when you expect it to be completed?

Well, we're engaged as a Welsh Government in a range of international networks, and it's all about providing ways in which we can raise our profile. But I think it's important that we do look at where we put the emphasis on our networks, what we can really influence internationally, and, of course, the review is important in terms of those partnerships. Of course, we participate in a number of networks from EU regions, but also from third countries, and we are participating in those networks even though the UK has left the EU. And I was just referring again to some of those important networks that we engage with, which you have played a part of in terms of those international networks. I remember meeting with some of them when we were, of course, visiting our partners in Brussels. And I think it might be helpful perhaps, either Andrew or Paula, if you just came in on some of those networks that we're engaging with. 

Thank you, Minister. Yes, absolutely, we are looking at all of our contacts and our relationships in that respect, but carrying on some of the very good work that's been done over many years. We were chair of the Vanguard Initiative in 2020, we're still part of the Conference of Peripheral Maritime Regions, we're an associate member of the Four Motors for Europe, and we've been engaging most recently as well with the European Cyber Security Organisation. So, we're looking at all of those different ways of interacting and keeping those contacts going. There are many more that we've been involved in, and our Brussels office in particular has been leading the way in that respect. So, very important to us, as the Minister's already mentioned. Some of those we're now entering as a third country, but that is possible, and where that's possible we've been continuing that.

Good. Thank you. Turning to the pandemic and the effect—. It's affected all areas, hasn't it? But in terms of the Welsh Government's development of international relations, has there been a particular impact on that? Or, actually, have you found that discussions with other countries have probably been a little bit more focused because of the pandemic?

I've commented on this quite a bit in terms of earlier questions because, in many ways—. And I think it does go back to the report on the work of our overseas offices. I mean, everyone's been focused, globally, on this. It's been a global response, and that's why it's been very important that we haven't changed aims and ambitions, but perhaps we've adapted in terms of immediate responses and priorities as a result of the pandemic. But the priority regional relationships and networks action plan, it does specifically mention how our priority relationships are in the context of COVID-19, because, of course, by the time they were published, we could reflect on that—mindful of the limitations, but important in terms of the relationships.

Of course, the travel restrictions have paused a lot of work and some of the international activity that was going to take place. We've been able to keep those relationships going virtually through official and ministerial work. I think, also, not just mentioning some examples earlier on with the Basque Country and not just the First Minister meeting the President, but also our Minister for Health and Social Services met his Basque counterpart health Minister to share expertise and knowledge of the vaccine roll-out programme. And today, we're launching a two-week virtual trade mission to the Basque Country. Last year, we had also not just the joint call from the Quebec Government and Welsh Government for a focus on COVID and recovery—that was very much focused around the COVID-19 pandemic. Actually, the President of Brittany has already spoken, I believe, today, on Brittany's international work on climate change and partnership with Wales, and that's all part of the lead-up to COP26, and the President's meeting the First Minister to discuss the Wales-Brittany memorandum of understanding and action plan.

So, we've adapted in terms of the impact of COVID-19 on our ability to develop relations. Actually, it's helped us develop relations. I think, going back to some of the points we've made about what has been able to progress and where we can focus on issues that are ongoing despite the pandemic, when I meet the State Minister for Baden-Württemberg, we are going to be discussing issues like managing COVID-19, but we're also going to discuss the UK's new relationship with Europe and Wales's new relationship with Europe. We're also going to discuss issues around compound semiconductors, med-tech and automotive, because that's where our mutual strengths are. So, it has had an impact, but it's perhaps geared us towards addressing globally the pandemic, but it's also helped, even through that, develop our relationships and specifically where we have got expertise.

So, I think planned activity has been affected. We haven't travelled and maybe in some ways we'll never travel in the way that we did before; we can do so much virtually. But we will reschedule much of that face-to-face contact, which is so important to international relationships and the development of soft power and diplomacy, let alone the much harder economic engagement. But I think we have demonstrated that we can deliver on our international relations strategy over the past year, despite, and because of, the pandemic.

And very finally from me, and you've already touched on this, you mentioned that planned activity is obviously curtailed this year, for obvious reasons. You mentioned the—. You touched on the World Expo earlier, in Dubai. Are there any planned activities for that, whether live or virtual or otherwise?

There's a lot of planned work going on to prepare for World Expo 2020, which will take place from October this year. Of course, it will take place in the UK Pavilion—very specific Wales-related activity. There's a number of Welsh participants already confirmed for the business programme. There's Welsh content in the UK business programme; Scotland and Northern Ireland were also involved. I was able to discuss this when I met the Welsh envoy earlier on this year in Dubai. But, obviously, we are preparing for this all-important event, because it is about our chance to promote Wales as a modern, confident, high-tech, creative and sustainable nation on a global platform. We're also clearly taking the opportunity, through the St David's virtual programme this week, to raise Wales's profile and reputation across the world, and, of course, we've got COP26 at the end of the year. We just had an event lunchtime, as I've mentioned, with Brittany, our colleagues in Brittany, but we're also making sure that that year-long Wales in Germany programme delivers on events and activities that will have an impact.

Diolch.

Thank you, Nick. We move on to questions now from Huw.

Thank you, Chair, and good afternoon, Minister. Minister, I was tempted to open today, on St David's Day, with a question of what can be done to restore good diplomatic relations with our biggest trading partner to the east of Offa's Dyke, with England, after the bonus-point win on the weekend, but that would be unfair, and I think the Chair would rule that out, so I won't touch on that at all.

What I do want to ask is about how we actually measure this soft power, because it's tempting to talk about soft power in broad and general terms. But you've given us some specifics this afternoon and, of course, one of the ways we can measure it is through the Anholt-GfK soft power index. We know that the UK has moved up from fourth to second position in the rankings, behind Germany, which is good to see. I'm wondering if we have an update now on Wales. Do we have that data—do we know how Wales is doing?

Well, thank you very much, Huw, and we will be publishing the results of the Anholt Ipsos—. It's a nation brands, I think, index; we'll be publishing that at the end of May. But I think we do regard this as a way of measuring Wales's international reputation, when the report is published. It's not just about a soft power index; it's actually a real opportunity to take stock of what our international reputation is globally. So, that's the power of soft power, if you like, just in terms of—. We look forward to those results, because it is where do we stand in the world and what do people think of us, and are we making an impact.

Thank you, Minister. And could you just confirm that, as Scotland does, Welsh Government will be publishing a full report of the findings so that they can have a good going over, not just by us as a committee, but in the public domain as well?

Well, unless Andrew or Paula can contradict me there, I would hope we would be able to publish in full, alongside the Scottish way of reporting. Andrew.

Same as you, Minister, I've no reason to not be able to do that. I'm sorry, I can't say categorically that will happen, but it would make absolute sense to, I fully agree with you.

So, we'll make sure—. We'll let the committee know if there's any other—. I can't see there'd be any other reason not to do so.

Okay. Thank you there. We're going to take that as a 'yes'. We're in a good mood today, and I think we're going to take that as a 'yes'. [Laughter.] 

One of the things you mentioned earlier on was the engagement that you'd had with fair trade—and we're in the middle of Fairtrade Fortnight—and Jenipher, who many of us have met, from the Ugandan workers co-operative and the activity she's doing at the moment virtually online. And that is an example, I have to say, of how relatively small engagement and investment by Wales goes a long, long way. And I'm delighted—. Ignore Mick Antoniw, Minister, when he says this is being produced and packaged in Pontypridd; it isn't, it's in Pontyclun, in my constituency, with Ferrari's coffee—a partnership between Ferrari's, Welsh Government, Jenipher and so on. But I'm wondering, Minister: how do you monitor Welsh Government impact across Wales across its Wales and Africa activities? How do you monitor it? How we do we see that we're having real impact?

Well, that's very important, and having been, myself, very involved with a local charity, a partnership with sub-Saharan Africa, and I know others here—Nick and others—are as well, it is monitoring what impact are we having and is it a mutual impact and a mutually-beneficial impact. This is about us learning and benefiting with our partnership and with our funding. Is it empowering? Is it needing longer term impacts and outcomes? So, obviously, all our small grants—and they are between £5,000 and £15,000—awarded to projects, for example, in Africa, they're very closely monitored, with reports on impacts on completion of projects, but also regular meetings, targets that are appropriate for the size and length of the project, progress at regular interviews determined by length of the project. And those are the learning components built into grant offers. We all know that all our grant funding—. We have a centre for grants excellence in the Welsh Government for monitoring and evaluation to ensure that is undertaken in partnership.

One of the interesting things this year is we've talked quite a lot as well with our partners in the sub-Saharan diaspora panel, for example, and also with our partners in Hub Cymru Africa, about development, looking at development through the eyes of understanding Black Lives Matter, for example, and the impact on empowering and sustainability. 

I just want to quickly mention the fact—. I don't know if I've said it already today, but I think the First Minister announced today that 15 million trees have been planted out of the 25 million. I think he might have announced that earlier on today. Certainly, as part of the fair-trade coffee morning I went to on Saturday morning, the recognition of the impact of climate change, the landslides in Uganda—. Jenipher and her coffee from Mount Elgon—there are landslides. When she came here last year—and she came to Barry, I'm sure she probably went to—. We met her in the Senedd at different meetings. She was coming to tell us and show us what the impact of climate change and landslides had on her community and her business. But the Size of Wales's tree-planting project is going well: 25 million—that's the projection; 15 million already planted. That's the news today. 

I always think it's very important, when I have the opportunity, to say that, every time a child is born in Wales, a tree is planted in Africa and a tree is planted in Wales. And some of you will have friends, relations, even yourselves, with children born in recent times, and they suddenly find a certificate comes through the door that says, 'There's a tree being planted in Africa, and there's a tree being planted in Wales.' I certainly was delighted when that happened when my grandchild received this certificate. So, I think we've just got to see this as a real opportunity. Sorry, that moved me a bit away from monitoring and governance, but it's very good. Can I also say they did mention the fact that—on Saturday—Ferrari's has made such a difference to the quality of Jenipher's coffee? The roasting is all in good coffee.

Well, as a—. Sorry, other coffee makers are available. [Laughter.] No, but it is really good to see, because I think that collaboration with Wales, with our manufacturers, our producers, what they can add as well in the fair-trade movement is good, but it is that thing on St David's Day, it's y pethau bach—the little things add up, they really do, whether it's trees or manufacturing excellence and so on, it really makes a difference. But that issue of governance and monitoring is something I'm sure we'll come back to, Minister.

One of the concerns that were raised at a UK level with the merger of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office with the Department for International Development was the age-old concern that, when you bung those two together, you lose the focus on the reciprocity, the mutual assistance, the mutual support, and it becomes much more of a simple trading issue; it's less to do with the wider ethical issues and so on. Now, we were told that you had raised that as a Welsh Government—your concerns—with the UK Government and how that might affect the action plan here in Wales. So, could you give us an update on that? Have you had reassurance from the UK Government that this will not knock our plans off kilter?

Well, I'm grateful for that question, because my predecessor, Eluned Morgan, as you will, I'm sure, as a committee, know, wrote to the Foreign Secretary—last June in fact it was—when that announcement was made about the merger of the Department for International Development and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. She wrote in that letter about the importance of DfID, which was created 22 years ago, and the impact of it. Millions of people have been lifted out of poverty as a result of the support: children into education, vaccination, all of the development work in terms of tackling climate change. In fact, DfID had been regarded as a world leader in international development and aid, and that was in her letter to the Foreign Secretary.

I think, following that announcement back in June and the letter from Eluned Morgan, we expressed concern about the merger, but I think one of the key points that I wanted to make here was we got a response. Eluned Morgan, the Minister, got a response from Dominic Raab at the time. One of the points that we made was that we wanted to get absolute assurance that it wouldn't result in a reduction in the budget, which, of course, had been so important, in terms of the 0.7 per cent. That's been something that we've recognised and respected the Conservative—and the coalition before—Government for actually delivering and keeping to that.

When the Foreign Secretary replied to Baroness Morgan, he actually did say, 'Our commitment to spending 0.7 per cent of our national income on aid is enshrined in law, and we will continue to be guided by responsibilities under the International Development Act, including a commitment to poverty reduction.'

Now, sadly, we know that in November that went, that commitment went, was lost, and the loss of that commitment to that 0.7 per cent was condemned widely, including by the former Prime Ministers David Cameron and Gordon Brown, and so many others who were so disappointed, as we were, about that cut to the international aid that has been so important and such an expression of UK Government global responsibilities.

I think the merger itself, it won't have an impact on our work in this area. We continue—even though it's not devolved, it's all about priorities, and there are huge pressures on the Welsh Government budget, but we continue to invest around £1 million every year in our international aid budget for Wales. But it is important that—. I don't know if the committee's been able to comment on this up until this point today, but it was a very sad day when that commitment was lost by the UK, was rejected by the UK Government.

I won't abuse my own position on the committee here and express my own personal view on that, but I think it was well articulated at the time, widespread across society and across different Governments as well, because of the importance. It's not just the symbolism; it's the importance of saying, 'Here we have a tangible—'. If you take the Welsh rugby team, you have a line that you do not step back from. You defend it hard when times are hard. Anyway—.

I appreciate those assurances. Let me turn to something entirely different, which is the target that Welsh Government had put on increasing the contribution that exports make to the Welsh economy by 5 per cent over the next five years. We just want to know as a committee, is that still the target you are relying on, and that you're sticking by, and if it is, then have you had to make any adjustments in how you're going to achieve that because of where we are with EU transition and where we are with the pandemic as well?

Obviously, this is something that was a very key target set at the launch of the international strategy. This is very much led by the economy Minister, Ken Skates, in terms of our work on exports, and of course, over the past year, such a significant impact on exports from the pandemic, and such a significant impact on our businesses, and also coming to terms with the changes as a result of EU transition. We won't see, in fact, the actual impact on goods exports until the end of this month into next month of looking at the impact in the past year. But actually, provisional results ending September 2020 for the previous twelve-month period did show a decrease of almost 20 per cent on the previous year, so it's a firm ambition for us to improve the contribution that exports make to the Welsh economy, and we will stick to that firm ambition, and that's why the export action plan last December focused on the practical ways that we can support Welsh exporters, and that's really what you want to know: how can we help them recover and rebuild from the pandemic, how can we ensure there's a new environment for trading with the EU and other markets?

Well, Minister, I thank you for that, and it's interesting to see the impact now, but if that target is retained, that 5 per cent over five years, then to get it back on track is going to take quite some heft. So, are you expecting there to be quite a rebound in the economy that will assist with that, or are there other levers that you're going to use to assist Welsh exports to get back up to that target? Because 'ambition' you mentioned there, but it isn't an ambition, it is a target.

I think the export action plan was looking at practical steps to ensure that we can not just have an ambition, but actually make that target a reality. Never would we have expected that challenge, would we, without the pandemic? I don't know, Andrew, if you want to come in to give some examples of those practical steps that you think will help us bounce back.

Thank you, Minister. Yes, exactly as you say. Within the export action plan, we've set out a series of measures to work with Welsh exporters to assist them both in existing and new markets. That's an increased number of advisers, so practical advisers that can go virtually—or in reality—to a business and help them. Many of those people are members of the institute of exporters and often come with a background where they've been exporters themselves, so we've got some really practical and good people there to support. We're doing far more webinars and seminars where we are getting the one-to-many effect, so we've got information, whether it be on markets or information on ways of doing things, so that we're getting to more businesses in that way. We're doing, as we've already heard today, our virtual trade mission programme now, rather than physically flying somewhere. So, exactly as the Minister's already said, we launched this morning a trade mission to the Basque Country, a life sciences focused trade mission, and that's got some really great Welsh businesses involved. And we've done that with our Basque partners, so that's really linking up the businesses and the opportunities in the two regions.

That is just one example of a series of trade missions. We've had a trade mission recently to Japan, and our envoy assisted us with that as well, so we're really trying to join up all of the different ways in which we can support our activity internationally. So, those very practical steps are about doing everything we can with exporters, and there is an element of that that is helping exporters through the new relationship with Europe, but then there's also looking at new markets, and looking further afield, and it's important to be doing that also. So, yes, these are challenging times, absolutely, but particularly when looking at this morning, and our virtual trade mission, there are so many great Welsh businesses that are looking to do more activity, and are looking for assistance in that. It's really encouraging—I always, genuinely, find inspiration from working with businesses, because they're out there solving the problems, and getting out there and doing business, and they're living what we're trying to achieve, which is growing Wales's profile internationally and growing the trade.

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Huw. We move on to questions from David Rowlands. David.

Yes, fine, thank you. Good afternoon, Minister. I'm very mindful of the time now, so I'll try, in the few questions that I have, to cover a thread that runs through them all. So, could you provide an overview of the work of the Welsh Government's overseas offices during the COVID-19 pandemic? I think you have touched on that earlier on, but just a very quick overview.

Thank you very much, David. You did have a report outlining the important role that they played, particularly during the pandemic. We issued that last week. It's about repatriating Welsh citizens, procuring PPE using local contacts, supporting central Welsh Government COVID technical advisory cell teams as well, gathering intelligence from other Governments. I think the First Minister's actually mentioned that, often, in First Minister's questions, that our overseas offices have been liaising and engaging. Again, learning from the experience of lockdown and easements, our chief medical officer is always coming back with comments and evidence from other parts of the world. So, I think one thing, finally, I'd just say is that we were very proud—and you will all remember the publicity—of the part that our team in India played when we were able to secure the return of our senior ICU consultants, one of our senior consultants, to ensure he could come back to work and treat COVID patients. I know he was desperate to come back, and they got him back.

Yes, so they'll be very important in that soft approach, won't they? There's no doubt about that. Could you outline how the UK-EU trade co-operation agreement has changed the Welsh Government's approach to engagement with the EU, and EU institutions and member states, and regions of the EU? Bearing in mind comments by Professor Catherine Barnard and Sir Emyr Parry Jones with regard to how we ought to focus not on direct relationships with the EU states, apart, of course, from Ireland, and we heard now, very lately, of the agreement that's come about. So, perhaps you could expand on that agreement that's come about with Ireland and on the other items that I've just mentioned.

Thank you very much. I think the committee will have been aware and seen the letter that the First Minister wrote to the Commission President, President von der Leyen, in January of this year. He was then outlining our vision, Welsh Government's vision, for positive and constructive engagement between Wales and the EU. It was about how we share our fundamental values and policy goals, but wanting that continued co-operation with EU regions and countries, particularly participating in European programmes, and active membership of EU networks—we mentioned those earlier on—which are progressing well. But also, he did in his letter, the First Minister, highlight the importance of Wales's role as a devolved administration in the governance of the trade co-operation agreement. Now that's concluded, we've got a clearer basis for continuing and building engagement with EU partners, institutions, member states and regions, particularly channelled through our Brussels office. 

We've got to recognise that the TCA is so important to Wales's economic future, obligations that we still need to follow, understanding how the EU will develop its policies, its rules, the impact of those and how important that is to us here in Wales. Yes, it's interesting to hear those comments from Professor Barnard and Emyr Parry-Jones in relation to where we focus our efforts because, obviously, international strategy is about raising Wales's international profile, growing our economy, as we've discussed all afternoon, through exports and inward investment, and our global responsibilities.

So, we have to develop relationships and partners, and we've talked about a number of countries and regions, our overseas offices' work, but also where we are developing priority relationships. Many of those are because of long-standing economic and cultural links with Wales, but we recognise that 60 per cent of Welsh exports go to the EU. Our largest economic partners are Germany and France, consistently ranking as the top two export destinations. Germany is Wales's largest inward investor after the United States of America. That's crucially important that that work not only continues, but flourishes. 

I think you commented quite rightly and fortunately today, David, on the Ireland and Wales shared statement that was launched earlier on today. A lot of work has gone into that, and the fact that that's led not just to our shared statement but, actually, a joint action plan. I think that was published earlier on today, so you will have seen it. When you look at that, the priority actions that are outlined in the statement today, I'll just comment on a couple of them, not just increasing relations, visits, biannual meetings, summits, et cetera, which we do have through the British-Irish Council summit, but also exchanging learning on progress in terms of implementing sustainable development, goal sharing, policy and approaches for joint collaboration for a green recovery, the impact of COVID-19, identifying and promoting opportunities for academic and student collaboration, mobility.

And also many actions that are important, and this committee has been so engaged in in terms of the successes of the Ireland-Wales European territorial co-operation programmes. Many of you have parliamentary links, research, and there are so many levels of engagement with Ireland that will be very beneficial as a result of today. I think that partnership will go from strength to strength and, in fact, we have later this week an event at the United Nations with Ireland, 'Small nations, big ambitions, building better tomorrows'. 

Very good. Diolch yn fawr, Minister. Thank you, Chair. 

Thank you, David. Minister, while we very much appreciate the publication of the joint statement between the Welsh Government and Ireland, unfortunately, it came out very late—we haven't had a chance fully to analyse that statement or the actions yet because it literally came out, I think, just before the meeting started. So, we will look forward to seeing what that means for the international strategy in Wales. Clearly, I think it's important to reflect upon the progress that's been made, and I also appreciate very much that COVID has changed perhaps not the strategy, but the way in which the strategy may be achieved, which are issues you pointed out. But I suppose what we want to highlight at the end is that we appreciated very much the strategy being published—I will say this—eventually, because we had pressed very much for a strategy. We now appreciate that it is there, and we hope that the ambitions of the Welsh Government continue to grow with this strategy, because our future definitely is in partnership with various regions across the world, and more than perhaps the ones already identified, there will be others out there who will want to do business with us. We look forward to continuing to scrutinise those agreements, those memoranda of understanding, and those discussions you're having in Baden-Württemberg as well, and to see how we could perhaps work together as two regions with common interests as well.

So, I very much thank you for that time. May I thank you and your officials for your evidence this afternoon? We appreciate that. As you know, you will get a transcript from the meeting; if there are any factual inaccuracies, please let us know as soon as possible and we will get them corrected.

Diolch yn fawr. 

Members, we'll move on to the next item on the business, which is agenda item 3, papers to note. The first one is correspondence from the Counsel General and Minister for European Transition to the Chair, regarding the common frameworks. This came in just before the session with him last week. Are Members content to note the paper? I see they are.

The second one is on the food and feed safety and hygiene provisional common framework—a response from Hybu Cig Cymru to our call for evidence on that particular one. Are Members content to note that paper as part of our work? I see they are.

The third one is a paper that was provided to the committee on the performance of the Welsh Government’s overseas offices, which the Minister highlighted in her response to us this afternoon. That came in too late for us to actually have an analysis in our briefing, but it was part of our papers for consideration. Are Members content to note? Thank you for that.

The next item of business, item 4, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of today's meeting and from the meetings on 8 March and 15 March.

Before I go to that, I just want to put on record that this is probably our last scheduled public meeting of the committee before the end of the fifth Assembly—or the fifth Senedd, as it is now. Can I put on record, please, our thanks to all the witnesses that have come before the committee in the work we have done in the consideration of the impact of the decision to leave the EU on Wales, and subsequently the international strategy and other aspects of where Wales will now move forward? Could I also put on record my huge thanks to the clerking team and all the teams that serve the committee? Without their hard work and their support, I think our job would have been much more difficult. I could mention many names, and I'll mention, obviously, our clerk, Alun, and Nia Seaton who has been directing all our work on European issues, but I also want to put on record Gregg Jones, who was the predecessor of Nia before he left the Commission, who also gave us a lot of help and support. So, I'd like to put that on record.

Are Members now content to move into private session? I see they are. Therefore, we will now move into private session for the remainder of the meeting and exclude the public from this session.