Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Mick, you're on mute. Can we unmute Mick, please?

Sorry. Yes, my son's working as a freelancer within the creative industries at the moment.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mick. Thank you very much for that.

I'd like to ask some questions about the cultural recovery fund, and, first of all, why the full consequential of £59 million was not allocated to that fund.

In fact, the demand for the fund exceeded that. I think that the total demand we calculated was over £70 million and the allocation that we have made does not relate to the amount of funding that was given because we are continuing to make further allocations both from our own Welsh Government resources and from funding that we have received from the UK Government as a result of the Barnett consequential. All these funds are being distributed, as I said, by our agencies, the sports council, the arts council and Creative Wales.

I think £53 million was the actual figure that was allocated to that fund, though, Dafydd, wasn't it? And then the £18 million was a mix, really, of Sport Wales, as you describe, some money to be allocated by the Arts Council of Wales, but also included money from non-Government sources such as the National Lottery. So, it's quite a complicated picture to try and pick through, really, isn't it?

Well, I don't think it's complicated, because it is how we operate in arts, culture and sport, because we seek to maximise what we get both from UK Government and from the National Lottery and other sources and what we can produce from within our own internal resource. It's fair to say, I think, there was some £7 million that we repurposed from within our own funding. I'll ask Jason to take that further, if you will, Jason, if that's okay.

Diolch, Weinidog. Thank you for the question there. Just, I guess, to summarise it really, when we had the consequential on the back of the UK announcement, not everything that was announced in the total package from the UK Government actually triggered a consequential to us. So, the £59 million that we got was, effectively, the new money that the UK Government announced. But if you take the full package of announcements that we've made and take them together, we've gone well in excess of the £59 million. So, I would point to three figures, really, which come to a total of £85 million that the Welsh Government has provided for the sector: the initial £18 million that was discussed earlier, the £53 million that we have announced as part of the cultural recovery fund, and, earlier today, the Deputy Minister was able to announce a further £14 million for sport. So, the total amount that we've provided for the sector is £85 million, which is well in excess of the consequential that we've got, which shows the priority we've given the sector.

Okay, well, I think there's quite a lot of delving we might want to do on that, but we probably have got into the very fine detail now. Could I ask about that initial consequential, the £59 million? I hear what Jason has said, Dafydd, but it does represent less than a population share of the total UK funding, so are you satisfied that Wales received a fair amount of funding with that sum, and how exactly was it worked out?

No, I'm never satisfied, and I could keep you for longer than I should if I started talking about my relationship with the United Kingdom Government over the years. But I do think there is a serious problem here, that the United Kingdom Government makes announcements for England, some of which qualify for Barnett consequential, and it often takes even the clever people I've got working for me a few days, sometimes, and sometimes a week, to work out whether there is, in fact, a consequential and if there isn't, why isn't there. And I would like a much more progressive and understanding relationship with the United Kingdom Government. It should recognise that it is both a Government of the United Kingdom and the Government of England, in devolved matters in England. I very much support the line taken by my leader, the First Minister, who keeps talking about equal treatment between the four nations of the United Kingdom, and we are quite far away from that. But I think that, coming out of this crisis, we will have learnt a lot about the need to improve the inter-governmental relationships within the United Kingdom, which should be much more transparent. I'm not attacking any particular Government or anything in this matter; these are aspects of the United Kingdom constitution that are still covered in a fog, I think, more often than they should be. Jason, did you want to add something more on that?

Only two brief comments about it, if I could, Chair. One, I get the question about whether we're concerned that it's less than the pro rata rate, as you were saying. Technically, no, because the consequential was a technical matter there. We've got a consequential on the new money that was announced by the UK Government and that was properly Barnettised to us, so we had no concerns on the amount that came because that's the way the formula works. I make no comment on the formula itself. The Deputy Minister has done that. I would just say that there are still other considerations under way in terms of other funding that we can provide. We're also looking at other potential solutions for our national institutions that don't quality for support under the cultural recovery fund, so there are still active discussions in terms of the support we can provide.

I see. Okay. Well, if I move on, then, to the freelance operators in the cultural and creative industries, are you content, Dafydd, that £7 million is enough to support that workforce, and what sort of assessment have you made of the total demand?

I suppose I should declare an interest, because one of my sons works freelance, when he's able to, in the cultural sector.

No, it is not sufficient, and I think it is only right for us to say that we tried to do what was possible, and we worked out a figure that was commensurate with what has happened in Scotland and in other nations and regions that have been operating a similar system. We looked at a figure of £2,500 that would reach 2,800 individuals. This is not sufficient, as I say, but what we have done is to develop a way of operating by establishing cultural contracts with individuals—and this applies to individual freelancers as well as institutions—so that, alongside the economic contract that other people in receipt of Welsh Government funding would of course sign up to, we can ensure other targets of our policies in fair work, in the detailed membership of boards and inequalities aspects, especially emphasising the importance of supporting the black and minority ethnic communities, and this has been part of our approach.

So, we haven't been giving money for nothing. We've been giving public funding and introducing at the same time more of the strands of equality. Not that we want to interfere in the artistic judgments; I distinguish here between the artistic judgments made by the people who are funding on our behalf. That is their decision and I believe very firmly in the arm's-length principle. In that sense, I am a bit old-fashioned, I suppose, in terms of arts policy, but then I was years ago a member of the arts council and a member of the British Film Institute. So I've done that work myself as a functionary of the arts system, and therefore the last thing I would have wanted when I was in receipt of funding was for some Minister to come round and say, 'This is how you should spend it.' We've tried to ensure—. Obviously, we have long discussions amongst ourselves with colleagues. I have a very successful, I believe, and intelligent team of senior managers in the three or four areas for which I have responsibility, and they are in constant discussion with the recipients of our funding, but it's not for us to determine, it is for the bodies, whether it's the sports bodies or whether it's the cultural bodies or the heritage bodies; it is for them to advise us how this money, this public funding, should be best spent. 

Okay. I wonder if I could just ask a final question on that cultural contract and the process involved and the level of engagement. The Wales cultural taskforce has called to be involved in designing the detail, and for its implementation to be delayed until April 2021. How would you respond to that?

Well, I don't believe in delaying the distribution of funds. We have received a communication—I think in August, we had a letter from that body. In fact, I have it somewhere. I have it here, and it was addressed both to the Minister, Eluned Morgan, and to Phil George, the chair of the arts council. I thought it was a very strange request, really, that public funding should be delayed so that people could comment on the form of distribution, when we have established bodies and senior officials who are very much in touch with all aspects of the sector, who undertake this work regularly. I believe we must have replied to this letter. I don't have a copy of the reply available to me, but we can make this correspondence available, if you want to see it. 

I'm sure that would be useful. 

That would be helpful, yes. 

Okay. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr. 

It's 5 August, the original letter from this organisation, and they describe themselves as 'Wales Cultural Taskforce (Emerging)'. I don't know what that means. 

We shall see. David Melding. And if I can just ask witnesses and Members to be aware that we've got a lot of areas we'd like to cover today, so if we can make our questioning and our responses as to the point as we can—not that I'm suggesting that we haven't done that so far, but the Minister has a lot of responsibilities and it's our job to scrutinise him on them all. 

And he does talk too much. That's one of the attributes of a culture Minister. 

I was not going to say that. [Laughter.] That wasn't what I meant at all, but we must try to get through as many of these as we can. 

Okay. I understand. 

David.

Thank you, Chair. I think my questions are quite focused, so no doubt the answers will be as well. If you look at the arts sector, what assessment are you making in your department of the closures and job losses, so that we have some idea about the capacity issues here and future potential for recovery? I know this is a difficult area, because that sort of analysis is not something necessarily at this scale you'd have done before, but in terms of all the expenditure we've just been talking about, we need some awareness of the immediate damage that's been caused to the sector in terms of closures and job losses and the mitigating measures then and an assessment of how adequate they are. 

That's a very difficult one, but what we've done and what I've discussed and instructed for the way that we operate within the department is that we depend on experts. For example, there's a group of people that we've recruited to assist us in evaluation. This is not a traditionally established ministerial taskforce, neither is it part of a quango, but there are representatives, obviously, of the arts council on that body. So, we get the quality advice, but alongside the quality advice, we rely on the processes of assessing each claim, and each business plan that we receive is assessed in relation to what we perceive to be the qualitative nature of the crisis that people face.

I think that it'd be very difficult to look for a statistical analysis that could actually give us the full extent of the damage that has been caused, because we are actually talking about closed buildings, people unable to work, audiences not able to turn up, except for those wonderful outdoor events that we've just been supporting quite recently—in the north, in Theatr Clwyd and also in Pembrey, and there was another one in Ynys Môn. So, we have supported events of that kind in the crisis, but we do it in response to people who are prepared to offer an event that we can support. 

Jason Thomas, did you want to come in there?

Just quickly to say that the engagement that we've got across the sector is really strong. We knew right from the start that the impact had been severe and, obviously, awful impacts on everybody working in the sector because, ultimately, they've been closed for large parts of the crisis. We know there's around 85,000 people working in the sectors that this committee is covering here today. One thing I would say is that the true impact of this is likely to be held back from us in many ways, because of the impact that the job retention scheme has had. When the JRS ends, it's likely that the impact will become much more apparent to us, but we do work really closely with all our sectors, and what I would say is that because that engagement is so strong, we get a good sense of what the impact is out there. The Deputy Minister and officials meet with these people nigh on daily, so we get a good sense of it.  

Thank you. David. 

Okay. Thank you, Minister. I think we understand how difficult it is to get that level of analysis at the moment, but I think it's fair for me to summarise that the qualitative side is stronger than the quantitative at the moment, and at some point we're going to need a bit of the quantitative analysis as well, which no doubt is a matter for the committee to look at at some point. In terms of the cultural recovery fund, then, and reflecting on your qualitative contacts and works, do you think that what already has been designated is going to be adequate? In terms of this crisis, I think it's fair to say that in the spring, we had some hope that things would have moved on quite considerably by the autumn. That was a reasonable best-case analysis, but that was what was the hope, I think. Now, that's clearly shifted to next spring, it seems to me—

Oh, and beyond. 

And beyond. So, are we going to need cultural recovery fund mark 2, or is the current one going to be adequate, at least to reduce the worst aspects of the impact?

When this pandemic first hit us, because of having some historic knowledge of cultural crises in the past, I was always warning that, first of all, we need to look at the public health position and keep that as the front issue at all times. And then, we examined the cultural impact. And then, we look at the possibility of recovery. I'm still very pessimistic about the way recovery is likely to happen. I don't think it's a matter of months; I think it'll be a matter of years, and that applies to, I'm afraid, all the four sectors for which I have responsibility. Jason, would you like to comment further on that? 

I can give you some live numbers, really, in terms of applications for the fund. It's been open for about 24 hours now, and we've already had 121 applications in there, coming to a total of just under £4 million. 

It's £4 million this morning, is it? Goodness me. 

Yes. We know from experience with the economic resilience fund that there's obviously a spike in the early days, and then there tends to be a spike towards the end of the window. But this is probably tracking slightly above what we were expecting. I think the answer to your question, though, is that we hope that the funding that we've provided with the CRF will be adequate to sustain a large number of organisations and livelihoods across Wales. We've said throughout that it's not going to protect every job—it's not enough to do that—but we do think it will be significant. It's the most significant package for the cultural sector ever, so we believe it will go far and wide. But then, looking beyond to next year, obviously, everything will be at play then when we come to the budget discussions, which will be in December. We will have the insight then when we go into those discussions to see how we've made an impact with the CRF, and whether or not we need a CRF2 in the next financial year. 

That's very helpful; thank you. That is candid and useful, I think, for the committee to hear. If we look at the situation we are in, where even a fairly modest reopening, which we were perhaps hoping for in the autumn, is not going to occur, at least only to a tiny extent around the margins, and it could well be next spring before there's any significant activity—. And the Welsh Government have been very clear that, when it comes, that reopening will be in the world of COVID. It will be with a disease that's controlled, but not fully suppressed, or certainly not eliminated in terms of its danger to public health. So, I just wonder, are you satisfied that the sector is going to be in that shape to accommodate this very, very different form of working and receiving audiences and the like?

Thank you for the way that you asked that question, because what we are convinced of is that there has to be a total change of attitude on the part of events organisers, promoters of any activity, even within the 30 that are currently permitted outside. We have to have a new priority, a new way of understanding, and part of this is the cultural change that has already happened among the population, although, obviously, not everywhere, otherwise we wouldn't be having the spikes that we've already seen, and we are still seeing. And the notion that we have a social responsibility not to infect each other has to be central, absolutely central. That's the strong public health message that we have given to all our cultural organisations, and that is without compromise. There can be no trading off of reviving activity that might damage the public health necessity. And that's something that we're very clear about, because what's the point of having art or sport if people are sick? 

Thank you, Minister. That is quite a stark and appropriate message and I think it's right that you make it. 

My final question: these are vast sums of money, and given in extraordinary circumstances. Are you confident that you're able also in making these expenditures to drive the sector forward in the direction that, when we're out of the crisis, is going to bring wider benefit, because, obviously, it will be a very changed world for our arts sector, but also, around the UK and internationally, and the state of the industry then will be very different from what it was before this crisis, and I just wonder how you're trying to get the sector fit for that?

I've been very struck, very impressed by the level of understanding across all the activities I have some responsibility for of the situation we are in. And I think it's heartening to see that people have a strong sense of responsibility and, in practical terms, are thinking of new ways of working. And I've already highlighted what happened outdoors in Mold recently. These kinds of activities are what can bring a bit of joy to people, even as they observe all the stringent precautions that we have to observe. And that is what art and culture is all about, isn't it? But it's not escapism; the pandemic isn't going to disappear because people are enjoying some sporting or cultural or any other activity. 

And this is how I would emphasise the other important part of all this—people taking individual exercise as much as possible, in order to ensure that they remain healthy. Now, you know that we are of an age, David—I'm actually older that you, I think—so I'll be keeping up my routine outdoors here in Riverside, in the parkland around Llandaff, and it's very important that people should be doing that, because we also have a responsibility for our own health even in this situation, and maintaining a level of fitness is something for each individual, not collectively, but individually as well.

Jason, do you want to come in on that? You've heard this sermon so often. [Laughter.]

Thank you, Minister. You walk the walk with that as well, don't you, with your own personal exercise? So, I commend you on that.

I'll come back just to the point about what we could hope to achieve through these significant amounts of money. So, at the heart of this is the cultural contract that we've put in place. There's a tricky balance that we've had to understand here, which is, ultimately, that the scale of the funding is there to try and protect livelihoods and to get the sector to a place where it can thrive again in the future. 

We've been really conscious, and I know the Minister has, of, I guess, attaching too many conditions to our funding, because ultimately it is there to sustain livelihoods. But what we've done is we've worked so closely with organisations, particularly with trade unions, which have been absolutely fantastic throughout this in the way that they've engaged with us, representing workers, and we felt that we did have this, I guess, once-in-a-generation opportunity, if I can put it like that, where we can use our money to bring about much wider good.

There have been some really perennial challenges that we face in this sector that you've covered as a committee for many years: representation on boards, low pay, zero-hours contracts—all these sorts of things. We felt that by having a cultural contract, we can make it a condition of our funding that if you've used Welsh public money to be sustained throughout this crisis, then when you emerge at the other end, you need to emerge as an organisation that has these values at your heart. And if organisations, ultimately, don't want to do that, then they don't have to take the money. I know, like I said, that's a really tricky balance to be made, but we feel like we've got the sector with us on this, and we've had really overwhelming support for the approach that we're taking.

Thank you. I'm going to have to move on now to Mick Antoniw's questions. I don't think we are going to be able to cover everything today.

So, Mick, creative industries. Mick Antoniw.

Yes. Can I just say, Jason, I think those comments you made actually reflected some very strong comments we've had from the chair of the arts council a while back, which I thought were very robust and very important? Can I say, Dafydd, as a fellow state pensioner, how I fully endorse the comments with regard to personal fitness? If only I could get away from some of these Zoom meetings that we seem to have one after the other, non-stop.

In respect of the creative industries, you referred a little bit to the length of time it's going to take for recovery and I think a lot of us are thinking along very, very similar lines, how it's going to be. What is your assessment of the extent to which there have been any perhaps green shoots of growth back again within the creative industries? Are there any indications there in terms of the money that's being used or the industry preparing to re-engage in different ways of working, et cetera? What's your assessment of that?

You will have noticed, I'm sure, that there were two areas where we moved as quickly as we could. One was the area of film and television production, and maybe we can say something more about that later on. But the first area we invested in was £400,000 to 22 grass-roots music venues. This was very important to us because we felt that this was an area that had been neglected and that was the feeling in Creative Wales itself. And I have to say, of course, that establishing a new public body alongside Cadw and the arts council, establishing Cymru Greadigol Creative Wales, was not easy and I would pay tribute to Gerwyn Evans who has been able to do this and to generate strong confidence in the sector. We have not yet, at least not to my knowledge, appointed all members of the board or the chair, but we will be doing this very soon—and I'm looking to Jason to correct me on this—in a matter of weeks. So, Creative Wales will be operating fully, and it's a very important new body in Wales because it means that it will be able to work closely alongside the creative sector, and I'm very confident that this will make its mark in the future in the same way as the other bodies I've mentioned, which are longer established bodies. I think there's a very important place for Creative Wales, after all, it was part of the Welsh Labour Government's manifesto at the last election, and I only wish we could have set it up more quickly.

Are there any indications that filming is beginning to start up again within Wales? I know there's a lot of development work that's taking place. But there was a lot of filming taking place pre COVID—it was a success area. Any indications that that is beginning to happen again?

Yes. War of the Worlds in Newport was one of the biggest ones to restart. I don't mean literally in Newport, but the filming of that was one of the first in the UK. I understand that for Keeping Faith  3 filming is in fact completed. Rownd a Rownd is expanding its activity in the north. It's taken over the whole of the main street of Porthaethwy/Menai Bridge I gather, as well as half of Llangefni. And, of course, A Discovery of Witches, I think that is also near completion of filming. So, this activity has been resumed and I think this is very good news for the existing companies that we have—for Bad Wolf and for the other major companies that are now very well established—and we look forward to further announcements in this field in the next few months, hopefully.

But the energy that was there in the film and tv sector—. I should have mentioned, obviously, the other aspects of the BBC and ITV's activity. In the same context, I should like to mention in particular the importance of the quality of news coverage. I won't single ITV out particularly, but both ITV and the BBC and the other news media have been very, very effective in maintaining proper, responsible public coverage of the pandemic, and I think that's an aspect of media activity that we ought to praise when we see it. Jason, do you want to add any detail on that?

If I could, Chair. Just to come back, I think you obviously asked about green shoots, so, across the Deputy Minister's portfolio, throughout the crisis we've had to face organisations across it that have been in real difficulties, as you know, but when we talk about the creative industries, I think there's probably been more hope and, I guess, a belief that they're going to come through this stronger, more than in any other part of the portfolio. As the Minister said, film and tv has started up. The inquiries that we are getting for film and tv production in Wales are significant, and we have some incredible projects in the pipeline that are commercially sensitive at the moment, but if we can get those over the line, they are big news for Wales.

Also, the digital sector within the creative industries, I wouldn’t lose sight of it, and that has been less impacted by the crisis than other sectors. So, that's strong, as is gaming. But there are still other bits of the creative industries portfolio, particularly live music, where there is still little sight of a reopening, that are still struggling. That's why we've focused our support towards individuals in those sub-sectors, really.

But there is a lot of optimism, I would say, broadly, in the creative industries and, thankfully, as the Minister said, now that we've got Creative Wales established, there is a focal point for everybody there to work through.

And the last thing I’ll say is: the interviews for the chair are next week. So, [Inaudible.]—

Sorry, I forgot to mention the most import one in my life: I'm a Celebrity at Gwrych Castle. Not me, but the programme. [Laughter.]

Are you revealing something, Deputy Minister, that we ought to be told? [Laughter.]

No, I'm not revealing anything. I'll be in trouble again. No, not yet. [Laughter.]

Mick.

One of the issues that we'd identified a while back, of course, was the issue of insurance and the inter-relationship with safety and COVID and so on, and with obviously members of the public. Does that still remain an industry? Is that coming across your desk or—? I mean, we had the UK Government film and tv production restart scheme. How has that worked?

Again, Jason, we have some news about the importance of the statements that have been made by the insurance industry. Insurance has always been a very difficult issue in live tv and filming and I think we now have a better understanding among the market supporters of the insurance industry and the investors about the needs of the sector. Jason, do you want to—[Inaudible.]

Yes, I think—well, not think, I know—we had really good engagement with UK Government officials right up to this announcement. So, the £500 million announcement that you mentioned was really welcomed by the sector. We actually hosted DCMS virtually in Wales for sessions in and around this, so it was really well received. I think that the current issue, if I could call it an issue, is now around the timing of getting that funding out, so we continue to put pressure on UK Government to try and expedite that funding so it can get to the people that need it. 

Well, that's really helpful. One final thing—and I'm aware of time—in terms of live events, obviously incredibly difficult. I'm in Rhondda Cynon Taf and we are in a partial lockdown—I know you're not supposed to use that term but I'm not quite sure what other word adequately describes it. But obviously it's a very difficult and volatile situation at this particular moment. Any indications as to how the issue of live activity might begin to take place or is this something really that we're putting on hold until next year?

We've taken a lot of interest in live sport activity, obviously, especially—I'll mention Merthyr Town and other football sides that play in what are basically the English leagues and the fact that because there were different rules in Wales and England there might have been issues. But we've been able to develop a lot of understanding. I should mention Bala Town, of course, as well: the famous international side that has been doing really well. Now, these issues, when we deal with the FAW and we deal with individual sports governing bodies as well in football, they understand the issues, and I must pay tribute and give thanks to the very loyal fans who understand that they can't all go rushing off, although somebody apparently did—or some people apparently did very recently. They can't go rushing off to places and stopping by pubs on the way in the situation we're in at the moment. But that's something that we will continue to do, and the quality of advice that the sports council is able to give to the sports governing bodies is something that is very helpful to us. Jason.

I'm really sorry, Jason, I'm going to have to pause you there. We've got at least—. We've got more fields—

I'm finished. I've asked all my questions.

We've got at least two more that we need to cover and I think, John Griffiths, you've got some questions on sport, so that leads on well from the Minister's point, so perhaps, Jason, you'll be able to come in in response to some of John's questions. John.

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. First of all then, the new fresh-off-the-press, as it were, £14 million sport and leisure fund, Dafydd. I wonder if you could tell us whether that is additional funding over and above previous allocations to leisure and sport.

Yes. I'm very grateful to Sport Wales, which redirected 8.5 per cent of the funding that we had given it itself, on its own volition, and that we've also given an extra £200,000 to Sport Wales already, and this £14 million announcement that you refer to will be part of a renewal scheme for sports and leisure, and that includes leisure centres and other sports activities. Some of it is for local authorities. And of course, we must be aware of the mixed economy—the leisure centres, the leisure industry—and we are very confident that Sport Wales will be effective administrators of this fund, the £14 million. And this is another example, as I said at the beginning, of how we like to work, by using these strongly established public bodies that we have accountable to us, who are experts in their own field, people like—I'll mention Brian Davies by name, because he has been doing so much of this detailed work with the individual groups since the pandemic attacked us. So, it's good to have those kinds of experts, who are not part of Welsh Government, they are part of an independent body, but their expertise is very helpful for us in working with these various sectors.

Thank you. Jason, I think you wanted to add to that.

Yes, two quick points if I could. One is in terms of the £14 million; yes, absolutely new money from Welsh Government on this. I think it's fair to say that we were criticised at the time the large consequential came to Wales, the £59 million that we talked about earlier; there was criticism at the time that we hadn't given the full amount over to the sector. I think this is just another good example of how Wales has gone beyond everybody else. You know, our £14 million there, as I mentioned at the start of this week, has now taken us up to £85 million in terms of the amount that we've provided to our sectors and there are other discussions under way for other support as well, so we do want to make kind of a big deal about this.

Then, the second point I'd briefly make is just the engagement that we've had with the sporting stakeholders, as the Minister alludes to, through Sport Wales, but I would also mention the Welsh Sports Association, the WSA, all the different governing bodies and everybody who's been on the very detailed working groups throughout this. Without their support and interaction, we would not have been able to get to this £14 million announcement. It's been a real team effort.

Thank you. John.

Just to be clear, then, this is a fresh allocation; this is new money for sports and leisure. I thought Dafydd was referring to a reallocation of money that had been allocated to Sport Wales.

No.

No, they did that at the beginning. That's something that they did at the beginning of the crisis. So, what I'm saying is that there has been existing funding that has been repurposed. That was at the beginning. This is new money.

Okay, thanks very much. In terms of the use of the money, then, Dafydd, how would that relate to the committee's recent report on sport, when we were talking about the socioeconomic difficulties in terms of people becoming active and having the health benefits that you referred to recently, some of the gender gaps as well, and the opportunity now to have a public health push?

We're very much looking to supporting street games, street football. We're funding boys' and girls' clubs. And these specifically operate in areas of deprivation, and what we're trying to do is to emphasise the role of physical activity in the recovery of communities and individuals, which is something I alluded to earlier. But we are very much aware of this as a priority, and we've been working with Sport Wales to ensure that their overall survey and review of the needs of Wales and of the needs of improved physical activity—the way in which Government can stimulate that. And I'm very positive that this priority will still be with us for the future, because, clearly, if we don't prioritise access to physical activity and sport by people who are not currently participating—and that includes women, young girls, and it also includes an age group of young men who, if they're not active in sports teams in early manhood, as they grow up, they may not be doing anything physical at all and that will show its effects later on in life, obviously. So, this is a major health prevention issue that we have before us.

Thank you. John.

Yes. Could I mention as well the leisure trusts? The local authorities have many of them at arm's length now, and I know there are different models. They're absolutely key, aren't they, in terms of their capacity to deliver on this agenda. So, how are they likely to feature in terms of this new money?

Well, they will be in the same position to apply to this fund as any other bodies that are within local government, but in fact there will be equal treatment between all leisure facilities. I think we've ensured that in the way that this is structured. So, there will be funding that will be expected to come from local authorities where they still deliver those responsibilities directly, but there will also always be consideration of each of the providers, whatever their governance, wherever they are—in the public or private sector or third sector.

That's helpful. Jason, did you want to add to that, briefly?

Just a clarification on how that funding works. So, the £14 million that we've announced there, I think there's a written statement or press release gone out this morning that covers that in detail. For those trusts that are local authority run, there is a separate hardship fund that is led through the local authorities that they can bid into and access. So, we now believe that we've, effectively, got a comprehensive package that leaves nobody on the outside in terms of trying to access funding. We've recognised that there's a need for this across the sector, really.

Thank you. Anything further, John?

I wonder if I could be just a little parochial, but I hope it's indicative of wider Wales problems, Cadeirydd, and that's Newport Cricket Club, where they've done really well on girls' cricket teams, women's cricket teams and youth cricket, but they've got particular difficulties now because the local leisure trust has taken over an area of their own premises that was used for winter cricket schools for a socially distanced gym. So, they've got particular problems, so, presumably, this fund might be of help to a grass-roots organisation like that that's meeting the agendas we want to see met.

Presumably they are in contact with Cricket Wales, which is very powerfully led at the executive level by one of the most significant women's cricketers that I've certainly met. So, I think it would be really good for them to have a full discussion with Cricket Wales, and Cricket Wales obviously is part of the structure, the governing bodies, related to the sports council and also to us as a Welsh Government. So, we would be very interested in looking at ways in which women's cricket—and I know the area you're referring to, I've been there, and I think it would be really important to maintain that club and the work that they do there.

Thank you, John. We're going to have to move on now to—

I don't know if Jason wanted to add anything.

Really quickly, there is support available direct to grass-roots sports organisations so they can go in themselves. I would just quickly say that we know that there's a good tradition in terms of Newport cricket and supplying cricketers at the elite level to Glamorgan, et cetera, so we would certainly want to encourage them to bid for the support that's out there.

Thank you. We're going to have to move on now to David Melding, and some questions on heritage museums and archives. David.

Thank you, Helen. I'll try and combine these and get through them quickly. [Interruption.] Sorry.

We have a little space for this, because we're going to write to the Minister on the journalism and local media questions.

Oh, I beg your pardon, I thought—

So, you've got a little bit of—you've got a bit of breathing space.

Okay. We know the national museum has been—and all its sites, I think, have been—reopened now for a little over a month, and I just wonder what the numbers have been like in terms of the level of capacity that they've been able to deliver in a COVID-safe way. And then, where the national museum is leading, are other parts of the heritage and museum and archive sector opening up as well?

Yes, we had quite an emotional morning at St Fagans when it reopened; I was very pleased to be able to join them there. And I'm pleased to know that one of my other old stomping grounds, the National Library of Wales, opened its reading room on 1 September. Most—I think I'm right in saying; Jason will correct me—most of the museums that are related to local authorities or independent local museums have either reopened or in are preparation to reopen. We are aware that a number of the independent museums are still closed, some of them because they're in historic buildings that are difficult to manage in the regulations on social distance. We estimate that something over 35 of accredited independent institutions are still closed at the present time. We suspect that some of these will remain closed at least until the late spring of next year. 

But I'm pleased to say that the local archive services are either open or about to open in the next few weeks. Obviously, there's a limit on the number of people who can go and do research and appointments have to be made in advance, but what I was told from the people in the national library and the national librarian, Pedr ap Llwyd—I was talking to him; we had a formal meeting, in fact, a few days ago—the appointment system is working very well and scholars are quite happy. They think the service has improved by having that sort of appointment system. And of course, there are things like that coming out of the crisis that have been positive.

David.

And what sort of capacity levels are we seeing? You've talked about St Fagans—presumably, that's the upper end of what's possible, because so much of it's open air. And then I suppose the national museum, in terms of its covered sites, they are usually quite large spaces, aren't they? But, are we seeing a third, or is it a quarter, or what?

I would link that with our estate of Cadw. Clearly, income in August was down 90 per cent on our Cadw sites. The number of visitors in August, again, was 80 per cent down—48,000 this August, compared with 260,000 last August. These are the kinds of figures that we've seen, but what hasn't changed—and I was determined to get this in— is the investment programme, the capital programme, that we're taking on with Cadw.

Obviously, what we are going to be doing in Caerphilly castle is now on hold, but that capital investment will be invested when that's possible, and so too will the major investment in Caernarfon. What is going to happen in Caernarfon will transform what is one of the most distinctive medieval towns in northern Europe. There will be a walkway around all the areas of the town wall, which will be linking the yacht club with the castle and right through. It will make Caernarfon a brilliant attraction and there will be also developments within the castle itself in the entrances and also in the catering, which, obviously, is a key feature of Cadw's offer.

Just before I bring Jason in—I think you wanted to add some detail to that, Jason—with regard to Cadw sites, are most of the sites open now? Jason, perhaps you can answer that with the other points you wished to raise.

Thanks, Chair. Yes, most of the Cadw sites are open now. Unfortunately, we had to close Caerphilly again, but most of them are open, and I think the Minister was spot on with the numbers. We're broadly at around 30 per cent across the Cadw estate in terms of numbers through the door. In terms of the museum, they're severely under capacity as well. We'll get a note from them in terms of their actual numbers, but I would guess that they would be broadly similar to Cadw in terms of operating capacity.

Thank you. Before I bring David back in, Mick, you have a supplementary question.

Just a very short point that, following on from those, we've got a number of smaller similar sites—the Nantgarw pottery, and of course you've been to the Llantrisant Guildhall—and they are of course experiencing very, very similar problems. Is there any assessment being done of those, because they are still a vital part of that overall network, aren't they?

Yes. Jason.

The cultural recovery fund has a heritage strand to it, because we recognise that there are going to be many institutions just like the ones you've said that won't be able to open and are struggling, so they'll be able to bid into the cultural recovery fund for some support there. And we have guidance in place to support those who do want to look to reopen, but we recognise that there are massive challenges and constraints to that.

Thank you.

Thank you. David, have you anything further?

Yes, thank you, Chair. The reduction in visitor capacity, you know, is an essential way of ensuring that the sites are COVID-secure. Is that being actively managed, or is it just like a natural process in that there's less propensity amongst the population to visit these sites? And if it is being managed, are we prioritising certain groups, the obvious one being schoolchildren who are suffering a terrible loss of educational experiences, and at least, if we've got a ration, they ought to be ahead of the queue, I would've thought?

I think the arrangements that Cadw makes with visiting parties, especially from schools, remain—well, I think it's been restored now, hasn't it? I think I'm right in saying that.

Jason?

Yes—

I can check with Gwilym Hughes, the director of Cadw. I can check exactly what the position is and let you have a note.

That would be very helpful. Jason.

It's quite a topical intervention, actually, because this is on the agenda for the historic environment group later on this morning—

Oh yes, the next meeting.

—when we'll be looking across the sector, basically, at how we could target all of that. I think the simple answer to the question, though, is, yes, it is being managed. I can speak for Cadw, obviously, as the accounting officer there. We've got a really detailed system of managing all the bookings through, and then we can make judgments then on whether we need to tailor our marketing if things aren't working. But there are scary numbers here. Cadw's income, as I've spoken to this committee about many times over the years now, has been on an upward threshold for a long time now. We were forecasting £8 million revenue this year. We believe that that's going to be £5 million down, so the scale is enormous. 

An appropriate note, I think, to draw this session almost to a close, as I think it does remind us of how serious the situation is, but we've also been very pleased to hear some good news. Deputy Minister, we did have some questions on journalism and local media that we will write to you about, because I'm very conscious of our time.

But there's one specific question in that field that I just wanted to pick up on—a commitment that you made to the Plenary on 15 July that you would get in touch with Reach and with the National Union of Journalists, the unions, with regard to the issues there. I just wondered if you had been able to hold those meetings or discussions and if you have a brief update for us, and you could always write to us with more detail.

Yes, we had a formal meeting—well, a video-conference of this kind—both with Reach in terms of the management and also with the National Union of Journalists in relation to what has been going on. What we have emphasised is that we are trying to look at the situation where Creative Wales might be able to become an arm's-length body that could support further independent publication. Because I'm very conscious that there has existed in the Welsh language, and, indeed, in the English language as well in relation to literature, periodicals and publications, a managed market—a publicly funded and well-supported market in reading material that has not necessarily been extended in a similar way to all the relevant Welsh, as opposed to Welsh language, publications. I've asked Creative Wales to look at this and I hope that we will be able to bring forward a scheme that could offer arm's-length support. Because I'm very keen not to be seen as a Government that funds journalism, because there's a very important arm's-length principle, I think, to retain the independence of the journalism media. I don't know if there's anything else that you can usefully add at this stage, Jason.

Jason, do you have anything to add?

Yes, there's a really quick, important point I'd like to make. I think what led to the Plenary discussion around Reach and the NUJ was, obviously, the announcement of potentially 90 redundancies at Reach. So, we've had those meetings; they were robust meetings—myself, the Deputy Minister, other senior officials were there. And I think this has come out now, but Reach have confirmed that, following consultation, lengthy consultation with the staff, that number has now come down from 90 to 21. You know, any job losses in this sector are not welcome in Wales at a time when we need better coverage of everything. But I think there has been, if I could call it a positive outcome—it feels like a positive outcome, going from 90 down to 21.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you, both, very much.

Diolch yn fawr.