Y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb, Hawliau Dynol a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol
Equality, Human Rights and Social Justice Committee
23/09/2026Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol
Committee Members in Attendance
| Elfed Williams | |
| Jane Dodds | |
| Jayne Bryant | |
| Joe Martin | |
| Laura Anne Jones | |
| Sarah Rees | |
| Steve Bayliss | |
| Zaynub Akbar | Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor |
| Committee Chair |
Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol
Others in Attendance
| Amelia John | Cyfarwyddwr, Cymunedau a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol, Llywodraeth Cymru |
| Director, Communities and Social Justice, Welsh Government | |
| Andrew Charles | Dirprwy Gyfarwyddwr, Cymunedau Cydlynus, Llywodraeth Cymru |
| Deputy Director, Cohesive Communities, Welsh Government | |
| Claire Germain | Dirprwy Gyfarwyddwr, Is-adran Trechu Tlodi, Llywodraeth Cymru |
| Deputy Director, Tackling Poverty, Welsh Government | |
| Lorna Hall | Dirprwy Gyfarwyddwr, Is-adran Cydraddoldeb a Hawliau Dynol, Llywodraeth Cymru |
| Deputy Director, Equality and Human Rights, Welsh Government | |
| Mike Conolly | Dirprwy Gyfarwyddwr, Is-adran Diogelwch Cymunedol, Llywodraeth Cymru |
| Deputy Director, Community Safety Division, Welsh Government | |
| Sioned Williams | Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a Gweinidog Cabinet dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Chydraddoldeb |
| Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Social Justice and Equality |
Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol
Senedd Officials in Attendance
| Ffion Jones | Dirprwy Glerc |
| Deputy Clerk | |
| Mared Llwyd | Ail Glerc |
| Second Clerk | |
| Rhys Morgan | Clerc |
| Clerk |
Cynnwys
Contents
Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Mae hon yn fersiwn ddrafft o’r cofnod.
The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. This is a draft version of the record.
Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor yn y Senedd a thrwy gynhadledd fideo.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:29.
The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference.
The meeting began at 09:29.
Bore da, bawb. Croeso.
Good morning, everyone. Welcome.
Good morning and welcome to the Equality, Human Rights and Social Justice Committee. The public items for this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv. The meeting is bilingual, with simultaneous translation available from Welsh to English. Just before we begin, just to let everyone know that Anthony Slaughter has sent his apologies as he can't make it today. Other than that, there have been no substitutions. Before we begin, are there any declarations of interest from Members at all?
I used to work in the third sector.
Yes, thank you. That's been noted.
Yes, the same for me.
Thank you. Anything else? No. Okay. Thank you.
I'm pleased to welcome the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Equality and Social Justice, Sioned Williams, and her supporting officials.
Today's session marks the committee's first general scrutiny session with the Minister and provides an opportunity for Members to discuss the Welsh Government's priorities, challenges and objectives within the portfolio. We're very grateful for the information provided in advance, but before we get into the questions, would you mind introducing yourselves for the committee?
Well, you've already introduced me—
—ond gwnaf i ofyn i'm swyddogion, efallai, a dechrau draw fan hyn.
—but I'll ask my officials to introduce themselves, starting over here, please.
Mike Connolly, deputy director of the community safety division. Good morning.
Andrew Charles, deputy director of the cohesive communities division.
Amelia John. Bore da. I am director of communities and social justice.
Bore da. Claire Germain, deputy director of tackling poverty.
Lorna Hall, deputy director of equalities.
Thank you, that's great. So, there are several topics that we'll be covering today. We'll start with child poverty first. For the first question, I wondered if you could give some insight into the progress when it comes to the new child poverty strategy and the key ways in which the Deputy First Minister envisaged how it will be different from previous Welsh Government strategies as well.
Diolch yn fawr, a dwi'n croesawu dod o flaen y pwyllgor y bore yma. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna waith pwysig iawn i'w wneud o fewn y portffolio yma.
Felly, i sôn yn benodol am dlodi plant, fel rhywun oedd yn arfer bod yn aelod o'r pwyllgor yma, dwi'n gwybod bydd rhai Aelodau yn ein cofio ni'n craffu ar y strategaeth tlodi plant ddrafft a oedd yn perthyn i'r Llywodraeth ddiwethaf, a hefyd, wrth gwrs, wedyn, yn dadansoddi ac yn dwyn sgrwtini ar y strategaeth bresennol. Dwi'n glir iawn nad yw'r strategaeth honno yn addas at y diben, os ŷn ni'n wirioneddol mynd i weld newid, y newid dŷn ni angen ei weld o ran cyfraddau tlodi plant, ac yn bwysicach, efallai, effaith y tlodi yna ar ein cenedlaethau ieuengaf ac ar ddyfodol ein cenedl yn y pen draw.
Felly, dwi yn barod yn gweithio ar y strategaeth newydd. Dwi'n defnyddio'r dystiolaeth a oedd wedi cael ei chasglu er mwyn ffurfio'r strategaeth ddiwethaf, a lot o'r dystiolaeth glywodd y pwyllgor cyn y pwyllgor yma yn y maes yna. Felly, tystiolaeth gan deuluoedd, tystiolaeth gan sefydliadau, rhanddeiliaid ac eraill, a theuluoedd dros y pedair blynedd ddiwethaf wrth i'r strategaeth flaenorol gael ei ffurfio, er mwyn sicrhau bod y strategaeth newydd yn ffocysu, yn dynn iawn, ar yr hyn sy'n bwysig iddyn nhw, a'r math o gymorth gallai fod yn gefnogaeth iddyn nhw wrth iddyn nhw brofi effeithiau tlodi, ond hefyd gweld sut dŷn ni'n gallu eu cefnogi nhw i gael eu codi allan o dlodi.
Felly, o ran y gwaith dwi wedi ei wneud, dwi wedi cwrdd â'r grŵp taclo tlodi allanol sydd gyda ni, sy'n cynnwys sefydliadau fel Plant yng Nghymru, Achub y Plant Cymru, y Child Poverty Action Group, Citizens Advice, ac yn y blaen. Mae'r arbenigwyr yma, yr arbenigwyr polisi yma, yn gweithio i'n helpu ni i sicrhau bod y strategaeth newydd a'r targedau—rwy'n grediniol iawn bod angen targedau a cherrig milltir ar hyd y daith arnom ni—i sicrhau bod y rheini'n addas at y diben. Felly, mae'r gwaith hwnnw'n digwydd.
Dwi'n gobeithio ymgynghori, wedyn, ar y strategaeth newydd a'r targedau yn gynnar y flwyddyn nesaf. Rŷn ni wedi bod yn glir iawn, fel Llywodraeth, o ran beth yw ein blaenoriaethau er mwyn targedu ein hymdrechion ni at y polisïau hynny fydd yn cael yr effaith fwyaf ar bobl yng Nghymru, a phlant mewn tlodi yn arbennig. Felly, wrth gwrs, bydd y strategaeth honno'n ein helpu ni i ffocysu ein gwaith o ran hynny o beth.
Thank you very much, and I welcome the opportunity to appear before the committee this morning. I think there is very important work to be done within this portfolio.
So, to speak specifically about child poverty, as somebody who used to be a member of this committee, I know that some Members will remember our scrutiny of the draft child poverty strategy of the previous Government, and then also our analysis and scrutiny of the current strategy. I'm very clear that that strategy isn't fit for purpose, if we truly are to see change, the change that we need to see in terms of poverty rates amongst children, and more importantly, perhaps, the impact of that poverty on our youngest generations and on the future of our nation, ultimately.
So, I am already working on the new strategy. I am drawing upon the evidence that was gathered to draw up the previous strategy, and a lot of the evidence that this committee's predecessor committee heard in that area. So, evidence from families, evidence from organisations, from stakeholders and others, and from families over the past four years as the previous strategy was formulated, to ensure that the new strategy focuses very closely on what is important to them, and the kind of support that could assist them as they feel the impacts of poverty, but also to see how we can support them to be lifted out of poverty.
So, with regard to the work that I've done, I've met with the external tackling poverty group, which includes organisations such as Children in Wales, Save the Children Wales, the Child Poverty Action Group, Citizens Advice, and so on. And the experts, the policy experts, are working to help us to ensure that the new strategy and the targets—I feel very strongly that we need targets and milestones along the journey—to ensure that they are fit for purpose. So, that work is being done.
I hope to consult, then, on the new strategy and the targets early in the new year. We've been very clear, as a Government, in terms of what our priorities are in order to target our efforts at those policies that will have the greatest impact on people in Wales, and children living in poverty in particular. So, of course, that strategy will help us to focus our work in that regard.
Diolch. Jane Dodds.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Bore da, Weinidog. Mae'n neis eich gweld chi. Dwi eisiau gofyn, os yw'n iawn, rydych chi wedi sôn am dargedau a gwnes i ofyn, hefyd, i'r Prif Weinidog ddoe am dargedau. A gaf i jest ddeall yr union gamau y mae'n rhaid i chi fynd trwyddynt? Rydych chi ar yr ochr arall rŵan, felly rydych chi'n deall mwy amdano fo. Yn fy mhen i, dwi'n meddwl bod lefel tlodi plant yma yng Nghymru yn 30 y cant, felly ydy o jest mor syml â dweud ein bod ni eisiau ei leihau i 25 y cant neu beth bynnag? Gaf i jest ddeall yn union beth ydy'r camau? Achos roeddem ni'n edrych ar y Llywodraeth yn yr Alban, ac fe wnaethon nhw gymryd jest 10 mis i ddatblygu targedau. Felly, dwi jest eisiau gwybod yr union gamau a'r amserlen, os oes gennych chi ryw syniad am hynny, a byddwn ni'n dod yn ôl at hynny. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Thank you very much. Good morning, Minister. It's good to see you. I want to ask, if that's all right, you've talked about targets and I also asked the First Minister yesterday about targets. So, can I just understand precisely what steps you will have to take? You're on the other side now, so you understand more about it. To my mind, I think that the child poverty level in Wales is 30 per cent, so is it a case of simply saying that we want to reduce it to 25 per cent or whatever? I just want to understand what the steps are exactly. Because we were looking at the Government in Scotland, and they just took 10 months to develop their targets. So, I just want to understand the exact steps and the timeline, if you have any idea about that, and then we will come back to that. Thank you very much.
Diolch yn fawr iawn am y cwestiwn a dwi'n gwybod am y diddordeb rŷch chi, Jane Dodds, wedi dangos yn hyn a dwi'n cytuno am yr angen am dargedau, a rŷch chi'n gwybod hynny. Felly, rŷn ni wrthi yn datblygu'r targedau yma. Mae yna nifer o ddimensiynau i dlodi, ac mae tlodi'n cael ei deimlo mewn ffyrdd gwahanol, felly dŷn ni eisiau gwneud yn siŵr ein bod ni'n cymryd ystyriaeth o hynny wrth i ni ddatblygu'r targedau. Fel roeddwn i'n dweud, mae'r arbenigwyr yn ymgysylltu â ni o ran hynny, o ran beth maen nhw'n ei feddwl byddai'r targed mwyaf ystyrlon. Achos, ie, gallwch chi gymryd un math o fesur tlodi a'i leihau o 5 y cant, dyweder, a buasech chi'n disgwyl y byddai hynny'n cael effaith, ond os nad yw hynny'n cael ei deimlo, efallai, gan y teuluoedd o ran yr effaith ar eu bywydau o ddydd i ddydd, ai dyna beth ŷn ni'n moyn canolbwyntio arno? Felly, rŷn ni'n trafod yr holl bethau hyn ar hyn o bryd.
Dŷn ni hefyd wedi bod yn cael sgwrs ar draws y Cabinet am hwn. Dŷn ni wedi sefydlu, a dweud y gwir, tasglu traws-Gabinet—yr un cyntaf i gael ei sefydlu yw'r un ar dlodi plant—ac fe wnes i gadeirio hynny ddydd Llun yma. Roedd hyn hefyd yn rhan o'n trafodaethau ni: pa fath o dargedau a fyddai'n fwyaf effeithiol? Achos dwi'n meddwl ei fod e'n bwysig i'r pwyllgor ddeall a chydnabod, hwyrach, fod yna ffyrdd gwahanol o fesur tlodi. Rŷch chi'n gallu meddwl am relative income poverty. Mae hwn yn rhywbeth sy'n cael ei ddefnyddio yn eang, ac mae e wrth gwrs yn bwysig, ond nid dyna'r unig fesur. Rŷn ni hefyd yn ystyried mesurau sy'n mesur caledi, pethau fel material deprivation. Mae hwn yn rhywbeth y mae Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol wedi bod yn edrych arno wrth iddyn nhw ddatblygu eu strategaeth tlodi plant nhw.
Ac wedyn, wrth gwrs, y deep material poverty, yn hytrach—. Dwi hefyd o blaid meddwl am dystiolaeth ehangach, hynny yw, fel roeddwn i'n dweud, sut mae pethau'n cael eu teimlo. Dwi'n cofio darllen, er enghraifft, adroddiadau gan bobl fel Sefydliad Bevan a oedd yn siarad am y ffaith nad oes yna ddigon o arian ym mhocedi plant i fedru, er enghraifft, mynd i'r theatr neu eu bod nhw'n methu mynd i barti pen-blwydd achos does dim arian i brynu anrheg. Felly, mae yna ffyrdd qualitative hefyd, dwi'n meddwl, o fesur effaith tlodi.
Felly, dwi yn meddwl bod yn rhaid i ni gydnabod nad oes yna ddim un mesur unigol yn mynd i ddal yn gyfan profiadau teuluoedd a phlant mewn tlodi. Ond, wrth gwrs, byddwn i yn dweud ac yn cydnabod hefyd fod yn rhaid i ni osod targedau uchelgeisiol ac, yn bwysig iawn, y cerrig milltir yna ar hyd y ffordd, er mwyn cadw'r ffocws yna ar ein gweithredoedd, gan wneud yn siŵr eu bod nhw—. Ac fel roeddwn i'n dweud, mae hynny ar draws y Llywodraeth, i sicrhau ein bod ni'n ffocysu ein polisïau a'n bod ni'n gwybod beth sy'n gweithio a beth sydd ddim yn gweithio.
Ac wrth gwrs, rŷn ni'n dod â rhai mesurau newydd i mewn, fel ehangu prydau bwyd am ddim, fel sicrhau ein bod ni'n gwella'r ffordd y mae budd-daliadau Cymreig yn cyrraedd teuluoedd, fel y peilot Cynnal. Felly, dŷn ni eisiau gwneud yn siŵr ein bod ni'n gallu mesur effaith y rheini hefyd. Felly, fel roeddwn i'n dweud, dŷn ni'n gwneud y gwaith yma. Byddwn i'n hoffi clywed barn y pwyllgor ar hynny, os yw hynna'n rhywbeth y byddech chi eisiau edrych arno o ran pa dargedau rŷch chi'n credu byddai'n fwyaf effeithiol a phriodol. Ond, fel dwi'n dweud, rwy'n disgwyl ymgynghori ar y strategaeth newydd a'r targedau, wrth gwrs, yn gynnar y flwyddyn nesaf.
Thank you very much for the question and I know of your interest, Jane Dodds, in this matter and I agree with the need for targets, and you know that. So, we are currently developing these targets. There are a number of dimensions to poverty, and poverty is felt in different ways, so we want to ensure that we consider that as we develop the targets. As I said, the experts are engaging with us on that, in terms of what they think the most meaningful targets would be. Because, yes, you could take one poverty measure and decrease it by 5 per cent, say, and then you would expect that that would have an impact, but if that isn't felt, perhaps, by the families in terms of the impact in their daily lives, is that what we want to focus on? So, we are discussing all of these things at the moment.
We have also been having a conversation across Cabinet on this. So, we've established a cross-Cabinet taskforce—the first to be established is the one on child poverty—and I chaired that on Monday. That was part of our discussions: what kind of targets would be most effective? Because I think it's important for the committee to understand and to acknowledge, perhaps, that there are different ways of measuring poverty. You can think about relative income poverty. That is something that is used very broadly, and of course it's important, but that's not the only measure. We also consider measures that evaluate hardship, things such as material deprivation. That's something that the UK Government has been looking at as they develop their child poverty strategy.
And then, of course, there is deep material poverty, rather—. I'm also in favour of thinking about wider evidence, that is, as I was saying, how things are felt. I remember reading reports, for example, by organisations such as the Bevan Foundation, that talked about the fact that there isn't enough money in children's pockets, for example, to be able to go to the theatre or that they can't go to a friend's birthday party because they don't have the money to buy a birthday present. So, there are qualitative ways as well, I think, of measuring poverty.
So, I think we have to recognise that there isn't one individual measure that's going to capture in its entirety families' and children's experiences of poverty. But, of course, I would say and acknowledge as well that we do need to set ambitious targets and, very importantly, those milestones along the way, to maintain that focus on our actions to ensure that they—. And, as I said, that's across Government, to ensure that we focus our policies and that we know what works and what doesn't work.
And, of course, we are bringing forward some new measures, such as expanding the provision of free school meals, such as ensuring that we improve the way that Welsh benefits reach families, such as the Cynnal pilot, for example. So, we want to ensure that we can measure the impacts of those initiatives as well. So, as I said, we are doing this work. I would like to hear the view of the committee on that, if that's something that you would want to look at in terms of what targets you believe would be most effective and appropriate. But, as I said, I do expect to consult on the new strategy and on the targets, of course, early on next year.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. A jest un cwestiwn arall yn fyr, os yw hynny'n iawn. Rydych chi wedi sôn am y camau a'r cerrig milltir, a oes gennych chi yn eich pen pryd fyddwn ni mewn sefyllfa pan fyddwn ni'n gwybod sut bydd y rheini'n edrych? A dwi'n gobeithio fy mod i'n gwybod yr ateb i hwn: ydych chi'n cysylltu efo Llywodraethau eraill, fel yr Alban—ac rydym ni hefyd wedi clywed o Finland a llefydd eraill—ac ydych chi'n edrych ar beth maen nhw wedi ei wneud a sut i gadw golwg ar wledydd fel ni, sy'n fach, er enghraifft?
Thank you very much. I just have one other brief question, if that's okay. You talked about the steps and the milestones, in your mind, do you have an idea of when we'll be in a situation when we will know what those look like? And I hope I know the answer to this: are you in touch with other Governments, such as the Scottish Government—and we have also heard from Finland and other places—and are you looking at what they've done and how to keep an eye on countries such as ours, which are small, for example?
Ydyn, yn sicr. Yn amlwg, fel rŷn ni wedi trafod yn y pwyllgor yma o'r blaen, mae yna wahaniaethau o ran grymoedd. Rŷn ni'n gwybod, er enghraifft, mai un o'r liferi mwyaf pwerus fyddai'n gallu codi teuluoedd allan o dlodi yw'r system les. Rŷn ni'n gwybod bod y system les fel y mae ddim yn addas at y diben, ond does gennym ni ddim y grymoedd hynny. Ond, rydyn ni yn meddwl, o fewn ein pwerau ni, fod yna rhywbeth y gallwn ni ei wneud. Felly, mae pethau sydd o fewn ein grymoedd. Rŷn ni yn sicr yn mynd i edrych ar y darlun rhyngwladol i weld beth sy'n gweithio. Mae Cynnal yn enghraifft berffaith, lle, wrth gwrs, rŷn ni wedi gweld sut mae hynny wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth yn yr Alban. Does gennym ni ddim y grym i fedru rholio hynny allan yn yr un modd â'r Alban, ond rŷn ni'n gobeithio, drwy'r peilot fyddwn ni'n ei gynnal ac wedyn drwy sicrhau ein bod ni'n gwerthuso'r gwahaniaeth mae hynny'n ei wneud, y bydd hynny'n medru dangos y ffordd i ni wedyn o ran sut gallwn ni fynd i'r afael â thlodi a sut gallai'r targedau adlewyrchu'r math o weithredoedd y gallwn ni eu cymryd. Ond, yn sicr, mae'r swyddogion yn cysylltu â gwledydd a rhanbarthau eraill.
Yes, certainly. Obviously, as we've discussed in this committee in the past, there are differences in terms of powers. We know, for example, that one of the most powerful levers that would be able to lift families out of poverty is the welfare system. We know that the welfare system as it currently stands isn't fit for purpose, but we don't have those powers. But, we do think that, within the powers that we currently have, there are things that we can do. So, there are levers that are within our powers. We are certainly going to look at the international picture to see what works. Cynnal is a perfect example, where, of course, we've seen how that has made a difference in Scotland. We don't have the power to roll that out in the same way as has been done in Scotland, but we hope that, through the pilot that we'll be holding and then by ensuring that we evaluate the impact that that has made, that that will be able to show the way forward for us in terms of how we can tackle poverty and how the targets could reflect the kinds of actions that we can take. But, certainly, officials are engaging with other nations and regions.
Diolch, a jest un cwestiwn arall. Pryd fyddwch chi'n gallu dod yn ôl i'r pwyllgor neu pryd fyddwn ni'n gweld pryd yn union flwyddyn nesaf y byddwch chi'n rhoi ymlaen y strategaeth a'r targedau?
Thank you. I have one other question. When will you be able to return to the committee or when will we be able to see when exactly next year you will be putting forward the strategy and targets?
Fel roeddwn i'n dweud, oherwydd y gwaith ymgysylltu sy'n digwydd ar hyn o bryd a'r gwaith mireinio, fe fyddwn ni'n gallu dod â'r strategaeth newydd a rhoi hynny allan ar gyfer ymgynghori yn gynnar y flwyddyn nesaf, yn 2027.
As I said, because of the engagement work that's currently under way and the refining process for the strategy, we will be able to bring forward the new strategy and circulate that for consultation early on next year, in 2027.
Diolch, Gadeirydd.
Thank you, Chair.
Diolch. I've got Sarah and then Laura.
Thank you, Minister. Two questions. Firstly, I wanted to ask not only how the targets are measurable—I think you've given us a lot on that—but what consideration have you given as to how these targets will tackle the underlying causes of poverty and are not just what we've heard previously of sticking plasters for short-term results? I'd also like to ask, on the Cynnal payments specifically, could you tell us a bit more about how the UK Government are co-operating on the roll-out of that Cynnal pilot? Diolch.
Diolch. Maen nhw'n bwyntiau rili bwysig, achos dwi'n meddwl—. Mae'r Llywodraeth yma'n benderfynol ein bod ni ddim yn mynd i lawr y trywydd o gynnig datrysiadau sydd jest yn mynd i'r afael â'r ffaith bod gennym ni dreian o'n plant ni mewn tlodi. Mae'n rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod ni'n creu gwydnwch, ac wrth gwrs eto mae hwn yn rhywbeth drawslywodraethol, mae'n ymwneud â'r economi, mae'n ymwneud ag iechyd, mae'n ymwneud ag addysg, mae'n ymwneud â'r agenda sgiliau. Felly, mae e'n rhywbeth—a mwy. Mae e ar draws y strategaeth fwyd hefyd o ran bwyd maethlon. Mae'n rhywbeth drawslywodraethol, a dyna pam dwi wedi cynnull ac yn cadeirio y grŵp Cabinet, traws Gabinet, ar drechu tlodi plant yn benodol, ac mae'n un o brif flaenoriaethau'r Llywodraeth. Felly, fe fyddwn ni'n edrych ar fesurau y gallwn ni eu defnyddio er mwyn nid yn unig ateb y galw, ac wrth gwrs mae angen ateb y galw am gefnogaeth yn y tymor byr, ond edrych ar y tymor hir yna. Felly, fe fydd y strategaeth yna yn cymryd golwg hirdymor ar bethau hefyd.
O ran Cynnal, fel rŷch chi'n gwybod, does gennym ni ddim y grymoedd i fedru gwneud yr un fath ag y mae'r Alban wedi ei wneud gyda thaliadau uniongyrchol i blant, oherwydd ein setliad datganoledig. Ond, rwyf wedi cynnull grŵp arbenigol. Rŷn ni wedi cwrdd pedair gwaith yn barod, ac mae'n rhywbeth rŷn ni wedi gwneud yn siŵr ein bod ni'n gweithio arno ar frys. A'r hyn maen nhw'n ei wneud yw rhoi cyngor ar ddyluniad a sut rŷn ni'n gweithredu'r peilot. Maen nhw'n edrych ar nifer o faterion sy'n ymwneud â'r peilot, yn cynnwys pethau fel pwy fyddai'n gymwys, sut rŷn ni'n mynd i gael yr arian yma allan at deuluoedd, sut rŷn ni'n mynd i godi ymwybyddiaeth amdano fe, beth fydd y mecanweithiau o ran cael y taliad allan. Ac, wrth gwrs, beth sy'n hollbwysig yw gwerthuso achos, yn amlwg, buasech chi'n meddwl y byddai rhoi'r taliad yma yn gwneud gwahaniaeth, ond mae’n rhaid i ni fod yn glir sut mae e’n gwneud gwahaniaeth. Felly, mae meddwl am y gwerthusiad yn rhan o’r gwaith—nid yn unig sut dŷn ni’n mynd i'w wneud e, ond sut dŷn ni’n mynd i'w werthuso fe a gweld pa dystiolaeth y mae hynny’n ei roi i ni.
O ran fy ymgysylltiad gyda’r Llywodraeth, mae hynny wedi digwydd ar lefel swyddogion, achos mae hi’n bwysig iawn bod gyda ni y tax and benefits disregard yna. Dŷn ni ddim eisiau bod plant a theuluoedd yn waeth off, ac mae hynny’n risg os nad ydyn ni’n cael cydweithrediad Trysorlys y Deyrnas Gyfunol ar hyn. Felly, dŷn ni’n hollol glir bod hynny’n hanfodol bwysig i’w gael. Felly, dŷn ni yn gobeithio—. Byddaf i’n siomedig iawn os na fyddan nhw yn gallu rhoi hynny i ni, hynny yw eu bod nhw yn ein helpu ni i ddefnyddio’r grymoedd sydd gyda ni at y diben gorau.
Dwi ddim yn gwybod, Claire, os ydych chi'n moyn siarad yn benodol ynglŷn a’r ymgysylltu sydd wedi bod yn fanwl, os hoffech chi gael y manylion yna.
Thank you. They're really important points, because I think—. This Government is determined that we aren't going to pursue a course of providing solutions that are just going to tackle the fact that a third of our children are in poverty. We have to ensure that we create resilience, and of course, again, this is a cross-Government issue, as it's related to the economy, it's related to health, it's related to education, it's related to the skills agenda. So, it is something—and more. It's across the food strategy as well in terms of nutritious food. It's a cross-Government issue, and that's why I've convened and I chair the Cabinet group, the cross-Cabinet group, on tackling child poverty in particular, and it's one of the Government's main priorities. So, we will be looking at measures that we can take to not just respond to the need, and of course we need to respond to the need for support in the short term, but also looking at the long-term picture. So, that strategy will take that longer term view on these issues.
In terms of Cynnal, as you will know, we don't have the powers to be able to do the same as has been done in Scotland with direct payments to children, because of our devolution settlement. But I have convened an expert group. We've met four times already, and it's something that we ensured that we worked on as a matter of urgency. And what they do is provide advice on the design and how we implement the pilot. They're looking at a number of issues related to the pilot, including things such as who would be eligible, how we're going to get that money out to families, how we're going to raise awareness of it, what the mechanisms will be in terms of getting the payment out. And, of course, what's most important is evaluating the process because, clearly, you would think that giving this payment would make a difference, but we need to be clear about how it's making a difference. So, we're evaluating as part of the work—not just how we're going to do it, but how we're going to evaluate the way that we do it and what evidence that provides to us.
In terms of my engagement with the Government, that has happened on an official level, because it is very important that we do have the tax and benefits disregard. We don't want children and families to be worse off, and that is a risk if we don't have that co-operation from the UK Treasury on this. So, we are entirely clear that that is crucially important to have in place. So, we do very much hope—. I would be very disappointed if they weren't able to provide that to us, that is that they help us to use the powers that we have for the best benefit.
I don't know, Claire, whether you want to speak specifically about the detailed engagement that has taken place, if you'd like to have those details.
Diolch. We've been engaging for a little while now at official level on this. The Deputy First Minister met with Baroness Sherlock, who is a Minister in the Lords, recently, to start that political engagement. We're making the case around Cynnal being disregarded. It's a clear part of us sharing the ambition around tackling poverty. We believe it's the right way forward, so we are doing that at pace with them and they recognise our desire to do that at pace.
Thank you. Laura, and then we'll move on to the next area.
It's following on from Sarah's question, actually. The root causes are really important. As well as throwing money at a problem, it's very important that we look at those, and it's very important that we do provide those jobs and opportunities in Wales, on people's doorsteps. I was just wondering how you're working across parties to achieve those goals.
But also, as well as directly and indirectly looking at this, have you looked at examples of best practices across the United Kingdom, in all parts, about what has worked in the past? And are you using that? Because I know it's a tradition, it seems, in Wales that we sort of reject what they're doing over the border, rather than just using that and Welshifying it and adapting it to what's happening here. So, I hope that that's the case.
Have we looked even further afield to that as well? Have you looked at other countries similar to ours, with a similar make-up, and seen what's working there? I'd be interested to know how you've come to the conclusion about what you think is best in your new strategy, and how you've developed it. Thank you.
I fod yn glir, dŷn ni ddim wedi datblygu—. Rŷn ni yn y broses o ddatblygu’r strategaeth newydd. Dwi’n meddwl bod yna rai pethau yn y strategaeth newydd sy’n werthfawr, ond beth dwi eisiau’i wneud yw ei mireinio hi a ffocysu ar y pethau a fydd wir yn gwneud gwahaniaeth—hynny yw, nid rhestr o’r pethau y mae’r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud, ond sut mae’n nhw’n gwneud gwahaniaeth. Dwi’n meddwl mai dyna’r brif wahaniaeth, byddwn i’n dweud, o ran fy ngweledigaeth i. Dŷn ni yn ymgysylltu, fel y soniais i ar y dechrau, gyda’r grwpiau a'r sefydliadau yna sydd yn arbenigwyr, sydd wedi gwneud ymchwil i hyn, sydd wedi tynnu ar yr enghreifftiau rhyngwladol yna.
Byddwn i’n gwrthod yr awgrym, yn sicr o ran y Llywodraeth yma—. Mae’r Llywodraeth yma yn hollol agored i’r syniadau gorau, o ble bynnag mae’n nhw’n dod, wrth gwrs. Dwi hefyd, yn fy nghyfarfodydd i gyda Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol, wedi cynnig, er enghraifft, o ran llais Cymru, ein bod ni eto yn cynnull grŵp pedair cenedl y Deyrnas Gyfunol er mwyn edrych ar y broblem yma yn holistaidd, ac yn rhannu’r arfer da yna, yn trafod y pethau a allai fod o fudd i ni, a sut mae’r rhyngberthynas yna o ran ein grymoedd ni, ond hefyd o ran arfer, yn gallu bwydo mewn i’r hyn y byddem ni’n gallu’i wneud yn fwyaf effeithiol.
Yn amlwg, mae’n rhaid i ni ystyried, wrth edrych ar yr enghreifftiau rhyngwladol yna, beth sy’n debyg. Gallwch chi edrych ar beth mae rhai cenhedloedd yn ei wneud, ond wedyn mae gyda nhw rymoedd a lefel trethiant uwch, efallai, mwy o adnoddau na beth sydd gyda ni. Felly, mae’n rhaid iddo fe fod yn addas i’n grymoedd ni, i’r cyllid sydd gyda ni, a’r math o systemau sydd gyda ni yma yng Nghymru. Ond dwi’n hollol glir y byddwn ni yn tynnu ar arfer dda o ble bynnag mae’n dod.
O ran y taliad Cynnal, yr Alban oedd yr unig genedl yn y Deyrnas Gyfunol, yn ôl yr adroddiadau diweddar rŷn ni wedi'u gweld, lle roedd hi'n edrych fel bod lefel tlodi plant yn mynd i lawr. Roedd e'n mynd i gynyddu ym mhob man arall yn y Deyrnas Gyfunol. Felly dyna pam dŷn ni wedi mabwysiadu hynny, achos rŷn ni'n gallu gweld ei fod e'n gweithio.
To be clear, we haven't developed—. We're in the process of developing the new strategy. I do think that there are some things in the new strategy that are valuable, but what I want to do is to refine it and to focus on the things that will truly make a difference—so that it's not a list of the things that the Government is doing, but how they're making a difference. I think that's the main difference in terms of my vision. We are engaging, as I mentioned at the outset, with those groups and organisations that are experts, who have undertaken research into this, who have drawn from those international examples.
I would reject the suggestion, certainly about this Government—. This Government is entirely open to the best ideas, from wherever they may come. And in my meetings with the UK Government, I have proposed, for instance, in terms of the Welsh voice, that we convene the group of quadrilaterals in the UK to look at this problem holistically, to share the good practice, and discuss what could be of benefit to us, and how that interaction works in terms of our powers, but also in terms of practice and how that can be fed into what we do in the most efficient way.
Obviously, we do need to consider, when we look into those international examples, what is similar. You could look at what some nations do, but perhaps they have powers and a higher level of taxation, and more resources than we have. So, it has to be suitable for our powers, and for the budget that we have and the type of systems that we have in place here in Wales. But I am entirely clear that we will be drawing on good practice from wherever it may come.
In terms of the Cynnal payment, Scotland was the only nation in the United Kingdom, according to the recent reports that we've seen, where it looked like the child poverty rates were going down. They were going to increase in every other part of the UK. That is why we have adopted that, because we could see that it worked.
Thank you. We'll move on to poverty more widely and the cost of living. Steve Bayliss.
Could I just add further on that? The Government paper says work has begun on child poverty targets and that it has refreshed the child poverty strategy. It also says Cynnal is being developed to provide a weekly payment for up to 15,000 children in universal credit households, with an expert group advising on delivery. What the paper does not provide is a baseline, target level, timetable, and a success criteria for Cynnal. You say work has begun on the child poverty targets. When will those targets be published? What baseline will they use? And by what date should the committee expect to see measurable reductions rather than simply evidence the programmes have been delivered?
Dwi'n meddwl fy mod i wedi ateb y cwestiwn yna i Jane Dodds yn gynharach. Yn gynnar y flwyddyn nesaf yw pryd fyddwn ni'n mynd â'r strategaeth allan ar gyfer ymgynghori.
I think I responded to that question earlier, in response to Jane Dodds. Early next year is when we’ll be taking the strategy out for consultation.
Thank you. I wanted to ask whether the Welsh Government plans to retain the existing tackling fuel poverty action plan and the 2035 targets. And if that is the case, do you plan on bringing any targets in the interim to check that progress is happening?
Diolch yn fawr am y cwestiwn. Rŷn ni'n gwybod nad yw'r arwyddion ddim yn rhai da ar gyfer y gaeaf. Felly mae tlodi ynni yn rhywbeth rŷn ni yn hollol fyw iddo fe. Mae e'n rhywbeth sy'n gymhleth. Mae e'n rhywbeth sydd â gwreiddiau dwfn. Mae yna nifer o ffactorau fan hyn. Mae yna ffactorau'n ymwneud ag incwm aelwydydd, incwm isel, mae yna hefyd y costau ynni uchel, rŷn ni'n gwybod. Ac mae'r rheini yn cynyddu unwaith eto. Ac yng Nghymru mae gyda ni'r effeithlonrwydd gwael yna o ran ein stoc tai yn gyffredinol.
Mae'r tirwedd wedi newid yn sylfaenol, byddwn i'n dweud, ers i'r cynllun yna gael ei ddatblygu a'i lansio yn ôl yn 2021. Mae yna, fel roeddwn i'n sôn, newidiadau mawr wedi bod o ran yr argyfwng costau byw. Mae yna newidiadau wedi bod o ran y pwysau economaidd ehangach a'r cynnydd mawr yma, y volatility dŷn ni wedi gweld o ran y farchnad ynni. Felly, dwi yn meddwl bod yr heriau sy'n wynebu aelwydydd nawr ychydig yn wahanol i'r rhai oedd yn bodoli yn ôl pan lansiwyd y cynllun gwreiddiol yn ôl yn 2021. Felly, mae fy swyddogion ar hyn o bryd yn asesu beth mae hynny'n golygu o ran y cynllun, o ran y targedau yn y cynllun, ac o ran y targedau interim yna. Felly, dyna lle rŷn ni arni ar hyn o bryd gyda'r cynllun yn benodol.
Thank you very much for the question. We know that the signs are not positive for this winter. So fuel poverty is something that we are entirely alive to. It's something that's complicated. It's something that's deep-rooted. There are several factors involved here. There are factors that are related to household income, low incomes, but also high energy costs. And we know that they are increasing once again. And in Wales we have that poor efficiency in our housing stock, generally speaking.
The landscape has changed fundamentally, I would say, since that scheme was developed and launched back in 2021. As I said, there have been great changes in terms of the cost-of-living crisis, there have been changes in terms of the broader economic pressures and, of course, this great increase and the volatility we've seen in the energy markets. So, I do think that the challenges that face households now are somewhat different to the ones that existed back when the original plan was launched back in 2021. So my officials are currently assessing what that means in terms of the plan, in terms of the targets within it, and in terms of those interim targets. So, that's our position at present with that scheme.
Jayne Bryant.
Diolch. Bore da, Minister. Last week, the Welsh Government announced some extra funding for emergency food aid for people in crisis and support to prevent poverty across Wales, which is obviously very welcome. You'll know that, from the index of multiple deprivation, relative deprivation in Wales is heavily concentrated in urban communities, major cities, the south Wales Valleys and specific coastal areas. In that announcement you also added extra to rural areas. Can you just explain why that was done, based on the fact that there's more poverty in urban areas? Out of income-deprived individuals in Wales, 77 per cent live in urban areas compared to 13 per cent in larger rural areas and 10 per cent in smaller rural areas. I know there is rural poverty as well, but I'm just looking at this particular point. Was that money that you've announced extra, or was it top-sliced off the way that you usually distribute funding across to local authorities in Wales? Is this something we can expect from future announcements as well?
Diolch am y cwestiwn. Ie, roedd y pecyn yna—y pecyn cymorth costau byw yna ar gyfer awdurdodau lleol—mae e'n rhywbeth sydd yn cynnig cefnogaeth i bob mathau o ymyriadau sy'n gallu mynd i'r afael â'r fath o gefnogaeth sydd ei hangen. Roedd e'n ymwneud â chymorth o ran bwyd yn benodol. Felly, rydyn ni'n siarad am fanciau bwyd, caffis cymunedol, sgiliau coginio, prosiectau sy'n darparu bwyd iach a maethlon i deuluoedd incwm isel. Ac yn yr un modd hefyd, rydyn ni wedi sicrhau, gyda'r pecyn yna, ei fod e'n cymryd golwg ataliol ar bethau. Felly, roedd gwasanaethau cynghori, gwasanaethau a gweithgareddau a sefydliadau cymunedol a fyddai'n gallu darparu cymorth a 'signpost-o' ar gyfer pobl y maen nhw'n ceisio eu helpu yn rhan bwysig o hynny hefyd, er mwyn ceisio atal argyfwng, nid yn unig cwrdd â'r galw, achos mae yna wastad balans yn fanna. Mae'n rhaid i ni gwrdd â'r galw pan mae pobl mewn argyfwng, ond mae'n rhaid i ni hefyd trio meddwl am y tymor hir, fel y gwnaethon ni drafod yn gynharach, a'n bod ni ddim jest yn arllwys arian mewn i'r ochr o gefnogaeth, er bod hynny, wrth gwrs, yn hanfodol ac yn bwysig, ond ein bod ni'n trio atal teuluoedd rhag mynd i argyfwng.
O ran y pwynt ar y ffaith wnaethon ni adlewyrchu yn y ffordd oedd yr arian yn cael ei ddosbarthu drwy awdurdodau lleol, roedd hynny'n rhywbeth wnaeth gael ei ffactorio mewn o'r cychwyn, felly doedd e ddim yn wir i ddweud ein bod ni'n cymryd arian o unrhyw le, roedd e'n rhywbeth wnaethon ni roi yn yr holl ffordd wnaethon ni ddyrannu'r arian yn y lle cyntaf. O ran tlodi, oes, mae tlodi yn bodoli, fel mae'r pwyllgor yma gobeithio yn gwybod yn iawn, ym mhob ward bron yng Nghymru. Mae e'n rhywbeth sy'n effeithio ar bawb, ond mae e'n effeithio ar gymunedau mewn ffordd wahanol. Ac mae tlodi gwledig, er enghraifft, yn ymwneud â'r ffaith bod pobl—. Mae'n costio mwy weithiau i bobl medru cyrraedd at wasanaethau cyngor, neu mae'n costio mwy i sefydliadau, er enghraifft, i gael y bocsys bwyd argyfwng yna mas i'w cymunedau. Felly, dyw hynny ddim wedi cael ei adlewyrchu o'r blaen ac roeddwn i eisiau adlewyrchu hynny, achos rydyn ni, fel Llywodraeth, yn cydnabod bod rhaid i ni wasanaethu pob rhan o Gymru. Dyw hynny ddim i ddweud ein bod ni ddim yn gwasanaethu rhai ardaloedd sydd ddim yn ardaloedd gwledig, ond rydyn ni'n edrych ar y darlun cyfan o dlodi dros Gymru ac yn sicrhau bod y cymorth rydyn ni'n ei roi yn adlewyrchu'r gwahaniaethau hynny sydd rhwng y gwahanol awdurdodau.
Thank you for the question. Yes, that package—the cost-of-living support package for local authorities—is something that provides support to all kinds of interventions that can help to tackle the support that is needed. It was related to support involving food in particular. So, we're talking here about foodbanks, community cafes, cookery skills, projects that provide healthy, nutritious food to families on low incomes. And by the same token, we've also ensured with that package that it takes a preventative approach. Advisory services, services with community organisations that would be able to provide support and signposting for people that they seek to support, were an important part of that to try to prevent crisis rather than meeting demand, because there's always a balance to be struck there. We have to respond to crisis, but we also need to look at the longer term picture, that we don't just pour money into the support side, although that's very important, but we also try to prevent families from going into crisis in the first instance.
In terms of the point on the fact that we reflected in the way that the funding was allocated via local authorities, that was something that was factored in from the very outset. So, it wasn't true to say that we were taking money away from any one place, it's something that we incorporated into the way that we were going to allocate the funding from the outset. But, yes, poverty exists, as this committee will hopefully know full well, in every ward almost in Wales. It's something that impacts everyone, but it impacts communities in different ways. And rural poverty, for example, is related to the fact that it costs more sometimes for people to be able to access advice services, or it costs more for organisations to get those crisis food packages out to communities. So, that hasn't always been reflected in the past and we wanted to reflect it this time because we, as a Government, recognise that we have to serve every part of Wales. That isn't to say that we don't serve some areas that aren't rural areas, but we are looking at that bigger picture of poverty across Wales and ensuring that the support that we provide reflects the differences between the different local authorities.
Sarah Rees.
I think one of the things, when it comes to poverty, that is often invisible is time poverty. I know that people who are working multiple jobs just to pay their bills don't have time, for example, to find or cook healthy food just on the fly. So, whilst you've said a lot about reducing food poverty and the food strategy, I'd be really interested to look at how we improve the availability and affordability of healthy food for families in poverty. Diolch.
Diolch am y cwestiwn. Dwi'n meddwl ei fod e'n bwynt rili pwysig. Felly, eto, rydyn ni'n gweithio ar draws y Llywodraeth ar strategaeth fwyd a rhan o hynny yw cymryd modd strategol o edrych ar leihau tlodi bwyd. So, nid yn unig y pecynnau cymorth brys yna sydd, wrth gwrs, yn anffodus, efallai, nes bod pobl yn cael eu talu digon a bod system les yna iddyn nhw, yn mynd i fod yn hanfodol, ond i sicrhau ein bod ni'n gwella'r mynediad yna at fwyd iach, fforddiadwy a rhywbeth sy'n faethlon. Mae e'n rhywbeth sy'n ganolog i'r strategaeth a'n huchelgeisiau ni fel Llywodraeth. Felly, wrth gwrs, mae gyda ni ein partneriaethau bwyd. Dwi'n meddwl wnaethon ni edrych ar hyn yn drylwyr yn y pwyllgor yma ac roedd yr adroddiad yna yn ddefnyddiol iawn. Dwi'n meddwl mai adroddiad diwethaf y pwyllgor diwethaf yn y Senedd ddiwethaf oedd hynny. Ac roedd yr adroddiad yna'n hollol glir bod taclo tlodi bwyd a sicrhau ein bod ni'n gwella allbynnau iechyd i bobl mewn tlodi yn mynd law yn llaw. Felly, dwi'n meddwl roedd y cyllid yna wnes i ryddhau yr wythnos diwethaf yn rhan o hynny. Wrth gwrs, roedd e'n fwriadol nawr, wrth inni, ar drothwy'r gaeaf, feddwl am beth sydd i ddod, a'r pwysau fydd dros y gaeaf. Ond roedd yna elfen hirdymor iawn i hynny. Felly, mae gweithio drwy ein partneriaethau bwyd lleol, a'r cydlynwyr sydd gyda ni sydd yn cael eu hariannu o'm portffolio i, yn rhywbeth sy'n mynd i fod yn helpu gyda hynny.
Byddaf i'n cael mewnbwn yn y strategaeth fwyd yna er mwyn sicrhau ein bod ni yn ateb y galw yna ac yn ateb yr isiw yna, sydd, mewn gwirionedd, wrth gwrs, wrth wraidd problemau iechyd. Fe wnaethom ni weld yr wythnos diwethaf, dwi'n meddwl, onid do, sut mae gordewdra, er enghraifft, mewn plant sydd mewn tlodi yn arbennig—yr allbynnau iechyd. Dwi'n cofio darllen adroddiad gan y Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health a oedd yn dangos bod y rhan fwyaf o bobl ifanc sy'n cael triniaeth wedi'i chynllunio neu driniaeth frys yn blant mewn tlodi. Felly, mae hyn nid yn unig yn rhywbeth sy'n dosturiol ac yn rhywbeth pwysig i'w wneud, ond mae e'n rhywbeth sy'n mynd i, yn y pen draw, arbed arian i ni fel Llywodraeth, heb sôn, wrth gwrs, am y gost ddynol.
Thank you for the question. I think that's a really important point. So, once again, we are working across the Government on a food strategy and part of that is taking a strategic approach of looking at reducing food poverty. So, it's not just those emergency support packages, which, unfortunately, are necessary until people are paid well enough and there's a benefit system there in place for them, which is going to be crucial, but to ensure that we improve that access to food that is healthy and affordable and food that's nutritious, too. That's something that's central to the strategy and our ambitions as a Government. So, of course, we have our food partnerships in place. I think we did look at this thoroughly in this committee and that report was extremely helpful. I think it was the last report of the previous committee in the previous Senedd. And that report was entirely clear that tackling food poverty and ensuring that we improve health outputs for people in poverty go hand in hand. Therefore, I think that that funding that I released last week was a part of that. Of course, it was intentional, as we're facing the winter and thinking about what's to come, and the pressures we will face in winter. But there was a long-term element involved in that as well. So, working through our local food partnerships, and the co-ordinators we have who are funded from my portfolio, is something that will help with that.
I will have input into that food strategy in order to ensure that we do meet that demand and respond to that issue, which, frankly, of course, is at the root of health issues. We saw, last week, I think, didn't we, obesity, for instance, within children who are in poverty exists in particular—the health outcomes. I remember reading a report from the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health that showed that the majority of young people who are getting planned or urgent treatment are children living in poverty. So, this isn't just something that's about being merciful and something that's good to do, but it will ultimately save us money as a Government, not to mention, of course, the human cost.
Diolch yn fawr. We'll move on now to social security and the Welsh benefits system. Joe Martin.
I was reading about the upcoming Cynnal payment scheme, so £10 for families on universal credit, per child, per week. I was interested to know, because, obviously, Reform had their conference earlier this month, and a big thing that Reform are passionate about is benefits going to British people as opposed to foreign nationals—. Obviously, Plaid Cymru are a nationalist party; they make a big deal about putting the people of Wales first. So, could we expect something like that from Plaid Cymru, where, if this Cynnal payment scheme's going to be trialled, it could go to just Welsh people or just British citizens and not foreign nationals?
Wel, rŷn ni'n trafod cymhwysedd, wrth gwrs, ar hyn o bryd gyda'r grŵp arbenigol, ac ar hyn o bryd dŷn ni'n edrych ar y ffaith taw teuluoedd sy'n derbyn credyd cynhwysol fydd yn gymwys. Wrth gwrs, mae hwnna'n golygu bod yna gymhwysedd o ran dinasyddiaeth ac o ran pa mor gymwys ŷch chi ar gyfer taliadau lles yn ymwneud â hynny. Felly, fe fydd rhaid ichi fod yn gymwys ar gyfer universal credit, mae'n debyg, er mwyn bod yn gymwys ar gyfer Cynnal.
Well, we are discussing eligibility, of course, at the moment with the expert group, and at present we are looking at the fact that it is families that are in receipt of universal credit that will be eligible. Of course, that means that there is eligibility in terms of citizenship and in terms of how eligible you are for those welfare payments in that regard. So, it's likely you will have to be eligible for universal credit in order to be eligible for Cynnal.
So, the UK currently spends—[Interruption.] Oh, sorry. Am I all right to come back? I do apologise.
Sorry, Jane wanted to come in, but we can come back.
Thank you.
I've got a point to make about what you've just said, which is that we're not supposed to be here as Members of parties, we're supposed to be here to scrutinise the Minister. So, I'd respectfully just ask you to think about that and not refer to your political party or conferences. Thank you.
Okay. I do apologise.
Thank you, Jane. Do you have another one you wanted to rephrase, or—?
Yes, just on that. So, we currently spend £12 billion per year on benefits for foreign nationals who are in receipt of universal credit. So, being in receipt of universal credit wouldn't preclude foreign nationals from receiving this particular benefit payment.
Wel, mae'r cymhwysedd ar gyfer credyd cynhwysol yn rhywbeth sy'n cael ei bennu gan Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol. Fel rŷch chi'n gwybod, dyw taliadau lles ddim wedi'u datganoli, felly byddwn ni'n edrych ar y cymhwysedd hwnnw. Os ŷch chi'n gymwys ar gyfer taliadau gan y wladwriaeth Brydeinig, byddwn ni'n ystyried bod y bobl yna, y plant a'r teuluoedd yna sydd angen ein cymorth ac mewn caledi, yn gymwys ar gyfer cymorth gan Lywodraeth Cymru.
Well, the eligibility for universal credit is something that is decided by the UK Government. As you know, welfare benefits are not devolved, so we would look at that eligibility. If you're eligible for payments from the British state, then we would consider that those people, those children and families who need our support and are in hardship, are eligible for support from the Welsh Government.
Thank you.
Thank you. I wondered if you could talk a bit about the devolution of the Welsh benefits system, and where we are with that and what you see this Government hoping to do over the next four years as well.
Diolch yn fawr. Yn barod mae gyda'r Llywodraeth yma, fel rŷch chi'n gwybod, uchelgeisiau o ran datganoli nifer o rymoedd lles. Felly, rwyf wedi yn barod, drwy ohebiaeth a hefyd drwy gael cyfarfodydd, wedi cael sawl cyfarfod gyda Gweinidogion yn Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol, sef yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol o ran gwaith a phensiynau, a hefyd y Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Minister for Transformation). Felly, rwyf wedi gosod mas, yn y cyfarfodydd hynny, ein huchelgeisiau ni o ran cael mwy o rymoedd dros ddatganoli, er mwyn ein bod ni'n gallu creu system sydd yn fwy addas i'r diben o ran y math o gefnogaeth rŷn ni'n moyn ei gweld i'n cymunedau a'n teuluoedd yma. Felly, wrth gwrs, mae sicrhau ein bod ni'n cael ein galluogi i beilota Cynnal yn rhan o hynny. Mae hynny o fewn ein grymoedd ni dan Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006, ond, wrth gwrs, fel roeddwn i'n sôn yn gynharach, mae'n rhaid inni gael cymorth i wneud hynny o ran y Trysorlys, i sicrhau nad oes yr un plentyn na theulu sy'n derbyn y taliadau hynny yn waeth eu byd oherwydd hynny.
Felly, rwyf yn meddwl bod yna fwy y gellid ei wneud o ran y system les. Dwi wedi meddwl, er enghraifft, yn y tymor byr fod yna fwy y gellid ei wneud o ran hynny, o ran sicrhau ein bod ni'n gallu rhannu data yn well, gan fod y DWP ddim wastad yn medru rhannu'r data, neu ddim yn fodlon rhannu'r data, gyda ni sydd ei angen inni fedru defnyddio'r data yna at bwrpas, i sicrhau bod yr hyn rŷn ni'n ei ddarparu dan ein grymoedd ni yn cyrraedd pocedi pobl mor gyflym ac mor hawdd â phosibl—y bobl hynny sy'n gymwys am y cymorth hwnnw.
Felly, rwyf wedi pwysleisio bod angen i Gymru gael llais yn y penderfyniadau yma, a bod yn rhaid i flaenoriaethau Cymru gael eu hadlewyrchu'n llawn pan mae'r penderfyniadau'n cael eu gwneud. Dwi wedi gwneud hyn, er enghraifft, gyda Syr Stephen Timms, sydd, wrth gwrs, fel y mae'r pwyllgor siŵr o fod yn ymwybodol, yn cynnal adolygiad ar hyn o bryd o daliadau PIP. Rŷn ni'n gwybod bod unrhyw newid yn mynd i effeithio'n anghymesur ar Gymru oherwydd nifer ein pobl ni sydd yn derbyn taliadau PIP, a phobl sy'n anabl. Felly, rwyf wedi dweud yn glir wrth y Gweinidog yna fod angen inni sicrhau bod llais Cymru a llais pobl anabl yng Nghymru a fydd yn cael eu heffeithio gan y diwygiadau yma yn cael eu clywed yn fwy clir. Mae yna dipyn o anfodlonrwydd wedi bod ar hynny, a dwi yn cefnogi yr anfodlonrwydd yna, ac wedi mynegi hynny.
Felly, rwyf yn edrych ymlaen at gael deialog bositif a chynhyrchiol gyda'r Deyrnas Gyfunol ar hyn, gyda'i Llywodraeth, achos mae hi'n agenda hollbwysig. Mae'n rhywbeth sy'n dylanwadu gymaint ar fywydau ac ar ansawdd bywydau pobl yma yng Nghymru. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod angen inni sicrhau bod ein safbwynt ni'n glir, bod ein llais ni'n cael ei glywed a'n bod ni'n gweithio gyda'n gilydd, wrth bwyso i gael y grymoedd yma wedi'u datganoli, a'n bod ni'n sicrhau ein bod ni'n gallu gwneud popeth y gallwn ni, er enghraifft medru rhannu data gyda'r DWP, er mwyn sicrhau bod yr hyn rŷn ni'n ei ddarparu yn gallu mynd at y teuluoedd yna mor rhwydd ac mor gyflym â phosib.
Thank you very much. This Government, as you know, has ambitions in terms of the devolution of a number of powers over welfare. So, I have already, through correspondence and also through meetings, had several meetings with Ministers in the UK Government, namely the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and also the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Minister for Transformation). So, I've set out, in those meetings, our ambitions in terms of receiving additional powers over devolution, so that we can create a system that is more fit for purpose in terms of the kind of support that we want to provide for our families and communities here. So, of course, ensuring that we can be enabled to pilot Cynnal is part of those discussions. That is part of our powers under the Government of Wales Act 2006, but, of course, as I mentioned earlier, we do need support to do that in terms of the Treasury, to ensure that no family or child that receives those payments is worse off as a result.
So, I do think that there is more that could be done with regard to the welfare system. I have thought, for example, in the short term that there is more that could be done in that regard, in terms of ensuring that we can share data better, given that the DWP isn't always able to share the data, or isn't willing to share the data, that we need in order to use those data to ensure that what we provide under our powers does reach the pockets of people as quickly and as easily as possible—those people who are eligible for that support.
So, I have emphasised that Wales needs to have a voice in these decisions, and that Wales's priorities need to be reflected in full when the decisions are made. I've made that clear, for example, with Sir Stephen Timms, who, of course, as the committee is probably aware, is undertaking a review at present of the personal independence payments. We know that any change in that regard is going to have a disproportionate impact on Wales because of the number of people in Wales who receive those PIP payments, and disabled people. So, I have said clearly to that Minister that we need to ensure that the voice of Wales and the voice of disabled people in Wales who will be impacted by these reforms are heard more clearly. There has been a great deal of discontent expressed in that regard, and I support that discontent, and have expressed that.
So, I do look forward to having that positive and productive dialogue with the UK Government on this, because it is a crucially important agenda. It's something that has so much influence on the lives and the quality of life of people in Wales. So, I do think that we need to ensure that our stance is clear, that our voice is heard and that we work together, whilst urging the devolution of these powers, and that we ensure that we can do everything we can, such as being able to share data with the DWP, to ensure that what we provide can reach those families as easily and as quickly as possible.
Thank you. Sarah Rees.
Thanks. I wanted to come to what's known as the Welsh benefits system, but I would like to say on record that, in my previous role at Oxfam Cymru, we were part of funding the Bevan Foundation with that research. And really, there has to be mention of the progress that was made by the previous Government on streamlining and simplifying that Welsh benefits system, but a lot more work needs to be done. So, I'd really like to know what actions you're taking to bring forward that streamlined and simplified Welsh benefits system, because that's truly what will ease the impact of poverty on Welsh families.
Rŷch chi'n hollol iawn. Mae'r siarter, fel y mae ar hyn o bryd, yn rhywbeth y mae pob awdurdod lleol wedi cytuno eu bod nhw'n ei chefnogi. Hynny yw, mae'r siarter yna'n ymwneud â cheisio sicrhau bod budd-daliadau Cymreig, fel rŷn ni'n eu galw nhw—y pethau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu gwneud er mwyn ceisio cefnogi teuluoedd yng Nghymru—yn cyrraedd pobl mewn ffordd fwy syml. Mae e'n gallu bod yn wahanol iawn ar draws awdurdodau lleol. Rŷn ni'n gwybod bod nifer o bobl sy'n gymwys ar gyfer y taliadau yma ddim yn hawlio amdanyn nhw—efallai oherwydd diffyg ymwybyddiaeth, efallai oherwydd ei fod e'n anodd ac yn gymhleth. Felly, mae'r gwaith yna wedi bod yn mynd rhagddo.
Dwi wedi bod yn glir bod angen i hynny hefyd fod yn ffocws ar gyfer y Llywodraeth yma. Mae angen inni—. Yn y 100 diwrnod cyntaf, fe wnaethon ni gomisiynu academwyr annibynnol o Brifysgol Caerdydd i edrych ar ein system Gymreig ni yn ei chyfanrwydd—i adolygu hynny. Mae'r dystiolaeth yna'n mynd i edrych ar draws 15 o raglenni o fathau o gefnogaeth, er mwyn asesu pa mor effeithiol yr ydyn nhw, a hefyd sut maen nhw'n cael eu delifro, beth yw'r cymhwysedd—yr holl gymhlethdodau hynny, dwi'n meddwl, sydd yn mynd i fod yn allweddol os ydyn ni eisiau gweld mwy o 'streamline-io' ynglŷn â'r system honno.
Felly, rŷn ni'n disgwyl yr adroddiad ar hynny i ddod mas erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn, ac fe fydd hynny yn ein helpu ni wedyn. Mae gyda ni rwydwaith sy'n edrych ar hyn, sy'n cynnwys pobl sy'n arbenigwyr yn hyn, ond hefyd awdurdodau lleol, i sicrhau ein bod ni'n gallu mynd at y gwaith yma. Dwi'n meddwl ei fod e'n hollbwysig ein bod ni'n gwneud yn siŵr, yn yr amseroedd yma, fod y cymorth sydd ar gael yn cyrraedd y bobl sydd ei angen. Dwi ddim yn gwybod, Claire, os ŷch chi'n moyn siarad tipyn bach ynglŷn â gwaith y grŵp ar hyn.
You're entirely right. The charter, as it currently stands, is something that all local authorities have agreed that they support. That is, that charter is to do with trying to ensure that Welsh benefits, as we call them—the things that the Welsh Government does in order to try to support families in Wales—reach people in a simpler way. It can be very different across local authorities. We know that many people who are eligible for these payments don't claim them—perhaps because of a lack of awareness, perhaps because it's difficult and complex. So, that work has been going forth.
I've been clear that we need for that also to be a focus for this Government. We need to—. In our first 100 days, we commissioned independent academics from Cardiff University to look at our Welsh system in its entirety—to review that. That evidence will now look across 15 programmes that offer types of support, in order to assess how effective they are, and also how they're delivered, what the eligibility is—all those complexities, I believe, that will be crucial if we want to see more streamlining in regard to that system.
So, we expect the report on that to come out by the end of the year, and that will assist us, then. We have a network that is looking at this, which includes people who are experts in this field, but also local authorities, to ensure that we can get to it on this work. I do think that it's absolutely essential that we make sure, in these times, that the support that is available reaches the people who need it. I don't know, Claire, if you want to speak a little about the work of the group on this.
Absolutely, yes. So, we've got a steering group in place, independently chaired by Fran Targett, who is previously of—you probably know Fran well—Citizens Advice, which is looking for that collective shared ownership of this work and driving it forward. The first phase, putting in place the foundations, did a lot of work in the last couple of years on that, but we think it was very clear, specifically to that group, that the push now is for pace, to move from discussion to delivery and seeing that turning into quite a practical route-map. They're currently working on their next phase route-map, hoping to look at that in October and share that with the First Minister to see what the next set of very practical steps are that show a move now to practical outcomes, and seeing a change in people's experiences of benefits. So, that's the next focus for the group: to translate the foundational work into practical action.
A dwi'n meddwl bod hwn yn rhan o'r agenda ataliol yna rŷn ni'n siarad amdano drwy'r amser, yntefe. Os ŷn ni'n gallu gwneud yn siŵr bod pobl yn cael mynediad rhwydd a phrydlon at y gefnogaeth sydd ar gael, fyddwn ni ddim wedyn yn gorfod gwario cymaint ar y gefnogaeth argyfwng, sydd ddim yn dda i unrhyw un. Ac rŷn ni'n gwybod, fel dŷn ni wedi siarad yn gynharach, am yr holl allbynnau, yr holl bethau a allai ddigwydd o hynny. Dwi wedi'i wneud yn glir bod yna ddim opsiynau oddi ar y ford fan hyn. Mae'r siarter ar hyn o bryd yn wirfoddol. Os nad ydyn ni'n gweld cynnydd, dwi ddim, efallai, yn mynd i beidio ag ystyried mesurau statudol i sicrhau bod hyn yn rhywbeth sy'n digwydd.
And I think that this is part of that preventative agenda that we're constantly talking about. If we can ensure that people get access that's easy and timely to the available support, then we won't have to spend so much on the acute support, which isn't good for anyone. And we know, as we said earlier, about all the outputs and all the things that could emanate from that. I have made it clear that there are no options that are off the table here. The charter at present is voluntary. If we do not see progress, then I may consider statutory measures to ensure that this happens.
I'd like to move on to the human rights Bill now. I wondered what the expected timeline for the Bill is, and how Welsh Government intends to keep the Senedd committee and civil society up to date on the progress.
Diolch. So, Hawliau i Gymru yw'n rhaglen ni ar gyfer datblygu a phrofi opsiynau ar gyfer cryfhau hawliau dynol yng Nghymru. Mae'n dod â grŵp arbenigol at ei gilydd, felly grŵp o bobl sy'n arbenigwyr cyfreithiol, sy'n academwyr, ymarferwyr. Mae hefyd gyda ni rwydwaith ehangach o randdeiliaid sydd â diddordeb mewn cryfhau hawliau dynol yng Nghymru. Gwaith y grŵp yma hefyd yw edrych ar wersi o jurisdictions eraill, i weld sut mae llefydd eraill yn y byd wedi mynd i'r afael â hyn. Ond beth rwyf i â diddordeb mewn gwneud yw datblygu model Cymreig sy'n uchelgeisiol, ond sydd hefyd yn ymarferol.
Felly, mae'r gwaith yna yn dechrau'r wythnos yma, achos yfory, fel mae'n digwydd, dwi'n cadeirio trafodaeth ford gron sydd yn ymwneud â—. Y bobl yn y cyfarfod yma fydd swyddogion o Lywodraethau eraill, a hefyd academwyr o ar draws y Deyrnas Gyfunol, a hefyd Ynysoedd y Sianel, lle maen nhw wedi dechrau meddwl am ddeddfwriaeth yn y maes polisi yma. Felly, fe fydd yr hyn rwy'n clywed o'r cyfarfod yna wedyn yn bwydo i mewn i'r cyfarfod cyntaf o'r panel y byddaf yn cyd-gadeirio yr wythnos nesaf.
Felly, rwy'n mynd i gyhoeddi aelodaeth y panel hwnnw. Unwaith ein bod ni wedi gwneud—. Rŷn ni yn y broses ar hyn o bryd o'u hapwyntio, felly fe fyddwch chi'n gwerthfawrogi bod yna brosesau sydd angen cael eu dilyn o ran yr apwyntiadau hynny, ond mae'r broses wedi hen ddechrau. Ond fel roeddwn i'n dweud, mae aelodaeth y grŵp yma wedi ei ddylunio o gwmpas yr hyn rŷn ni'n moyn i'r gwaith yma, i'r Bil yma, fod—meddwl am hawliau dynol, meddwl am ddatganoli, meddwl am y tirlun deddfwriaethol Cymreig, meddwl am y profiad cymharol yna, meddwl am bersbectif y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a sut byddwn ni'n gallu sicrhau newid.
Felly, mae hwn yn waith cymhleth. Mae e'n mynd i gymryd ychydig o amser i'w wneud, ond mae ein rhaglen llywodraethu wedi ymrwymo inni ddod â chynnig ar beth fydd y Bil yna, o bosib, y ddeddfwriaeth yna, yn edrych fel gerbron, yn amlwg, cyn diwedd y tymor. Ond fydd e ddim yn y rhaglen gyntaf o ddeddfwriaeth y byddwn ni fel Llywodraeth eisiau ei phasio, achos ein bod ni eisiau sicrhau bod hwn yn cael ei wneud yn iawn, a’n bod ni eisiau sicrhau ei fod e i gyd yn rhywbeth sy'n ffit i'r pwrpas ac o fewn ein cymhwysedd ni fel Llywodraeth.
Thank you. So, Hawliau i Gymru is our programme for developing and testing options for strengthening human rights in Wales. It brings together an expert group, therefore a group of people who are legal experts, academics, practitioners. We also have a wider network of stakeholders who have an interest in strengthening human rights in Wales. The work of this group is also to look at lessons from other jurisdictions, to see how other places in the world have approached this. But what I am interested in doing is developing a Welsh model that is ambitious, but that is also practicable.
So, that work is starting this week, because tomorrow, as it happens, I will be chairing a round-table discussion related to—. The people in that meeting will be officials from other Governments, and also academics from across the United Kingdom and also the Channel Islands, where they've started thinking about legislation in this policy area. So, what I hear from that meeting will then feed into the first meeting of the panel that I will be co-chairing next week.
So, I am going to be announcing the membership of that panel. Once we have made—. We are currently in the process of appointing the panel, so I'm sure you'll appreciate that there are processes that have to be followed in terms of those appointments, but the process has long since started. But as I was saying, the membership of that group has been designed around what we want this work, this Bill, to deliver, thinking about human rights, thinking about devolution, thinking about the Welsh legislative landscape, thinking about the relative experience, thinking about the perspective of public services and how we can deliver change.
So, this is a complex job of work. It is going to take some time to do, but the programme for government has committed to bringing forward a proposal for what this Bill, possibly, what this legislation, will look like before the end of the term, clearly. But it won't be in the first tranche of legislation that we as a Government would want to pass, because we do want to ensure that this is done right, and we want to ensure that it is all something that is fit for purpose and within our competence as a Government.
Diolch yn fawr. Sarah Rees.
Thanks. I used to sit on the human rights advisory group with Welsh Government, so I wanted to ask whether that group was going to be reinstated or whether there would be any sort of different group, to ensure that there are relevant organisations able to inform the work—for example, Amnesty International, who obviously have a lot of expertise in this area. I'm very aware, from all the work that Welsh Government did on that previous group, that the incorporation, and the progress of that incorporation, was slow because of funding constraints, time constraints. This is obviously really complex and detailed work, and I think it's important to flag and find out how complexity will be avoided whilst ensuring that we don't lose the nuance of specific conventions because, from my limited legal experience, the change of a word can have a huge impact. And I'd like to ask whether the Welsh Government has ruled out direct treaty incorporation. Thank you. Sorry, there's a lot in there.
Diolch, diolch yn fawr. Dwi'n meddwl gwnaethon ni weld o waith, o adroddiad, y legislative options working group, sef y grŵp a wnaeth ddod mas o HRAG, yntefe, yn y tymor diwethaf—. Fe wnaethon nhw ddarparu lot o arweiniad i ni, dwi'n meddwl, o ran y math o ymgorfforiad a fyddai, efallai, yn gallu gweithio i Gymru. Gwaith y grŵp hawliau i Gymru newydd—so, grŵp hawliau i Gymru sy'n edrych ar y sut, nid y pam—fydd gyda ni yn y tymor yma. Ac fel roeddwn i'n dweud, allaf i ddim datgelu aelodaeth y grŵp yna nawr, ond mae yna arbenigwyr cyfreithiol yn mynd i fod yn edrych ar sut gall y ddeddfwriaeth edrych yn rhan o hynny.
Felly, mae materion yn ymwneud ag ymgorffori uniongyrchol neu beidio, sef, wrth gwrs, rhywbeth roedd y LOWG yn ei drafod, yntefe, o ran y ddau treaty roeddwn nhw'n edrych arnyn nhw yn benodol. Mae hynny'n mynd i helpu, yn amlwg, gyda'n gwaith ni o hyn ymlaen. Ond dwi eisiau bod yn hollol glir: mae'r Llywodraeth yma yn credu taw deddfwriaeth sydd ei hangen. Felly, mae yna legislative options o ran hynny o hyd, ond mae'r grŵp penodol yna, hawliau i Gymru, yn mynd i fod yn edrych ar y sut.
Yn amlwg, yn rhan o hynny, fel roedd gyda'r human rights advisory group yn gynharach, fe fydd gyda ni’r grŵp ehangach yna o randdeiliaid, pobl fel Amnest ac yn y blaen, pawb, fel roeddwn i'n sôn yn gynharach, sydd â diddordeb yn y gwaith yma. Fe fyddwn ni’n cadw mewn cysylltiad agos ac yn bwydo'r hyn sy'n dod allan o drafodaethau’r grŵp hawliau i Gymru i mewn i'r trafodaethau gyda'r grŵp rhanddeiliad ehangach. Felly, dyna sut dwi'n gweld hwn yn gweithio mewn gwirionedd.
Thank you very much. Yes, I think that we saw from the legislative options working group's report, which is the group that came out of HRAG in the last term—. They provided a great deal of guidance and leadership for us in terms of the type of incorporation that could work for Wales. The work of the new hawliau i Gymru group—so, the hawliau i Gymru group is looking at the how, not the why—is what we'll have this term. And as I said, I can't reveal what the membership of that group is now, but there are legal experts who will be looking at how the legislation could look as a part of that.
So, there are issues to do with direct incorporation or not, which is of course something that the LOWG was discussing in terms of the two treaties that they were specifically looking at. That's going to help, obviously, with our work from now on. But I want to be entirely clear: this Government believes that legislation is what is required. So, there are still legislative options around that, but that specific group, hawliau i Gymru, is going to be looking at the how.
Obviously, as part of that, as was the case with the human rights advisory group, we will have that broader group of stakeholders, so people such as Amnesty and so on, everyone who, as I mentioned previously, has an interest in this work. We will be keeping in close touch with them and we'll be feeding what emanates from the discussions of the hawliau i Gymru group into the discussions with the broader stakeholder group. So, that's how I anticipate that working, in truth.
How can the Welsh Government ensure that this isn't a Bill for a Bill's sake, and it will actually make a tangible difference to people's lives—rather than being top-down, more bottom-up? What types of differences do you think it will make to people's day-to-day lives?
Wel, roeddwn i yn gadeirydd y grŵp trawsbleidiol ar hawliau dynol yn y Senedd ddiwethaf, ac fe wnaethon ni gynnal ymchwiliad, ac fe wnaethon ni gyhoeddi adroddiad, ynglŷn â sut, ar hyn o bryd, dyw pobl ddim naill ai yn ymwybodol o'u hawliau, neu ddim yn medru gweld yr hawliau yna yn cael eu gweithredu yn eu bywydau dydd i ddydd. Felly, fe wnaethon ni gymryd tystiolaeth gan bobl anabl, fe wnaethon ni gymryd tystiolaeth gan bobl a sefydliadau sy'n edrych ar hawliau merched; dŷn ni wedi edrych ar bobl o gefndir lleiafrifoedd ethnig. Roedd yna nifer o randdeiliaid, ac roedden nhw'n gallu rhoi enghreifftiau penodol lle'r oedd pethau'n mynd yn anghywir. Un o'r pethau oedd, er enghraifft—ac fe gawson ni dystiolaeth gref iawn amdano fe—yr ymgyrch Stolen Lives. Dyma enghraifft lle'r oedd yna bobl oedd gydag anableddau dysgu yn cael eu cadw, yn erbyn eu hawliau dynol, mewn ysbytai nad oedd yn addas iddyn nhw. Hynny yw, achos doedd yna ddim darpariaeth ar eu cyfer nhw i fyw'n annibynnol, roedden nhw'n cael eu rhoi a'u cloi mewn sefydliadau nad oedd yn parchu eu hawliau dynol.
Felly, beth dwi eisiau i'r Bil yma fod yw rhyw fath o fframwaith i helpu sefydliadau yng Nghymru i wneud y penderfyniadau cywir, i ddeall beth mae'r hawliau yna'n ei olygu i fywydau pobl o ddydd i ddydd, i helpu i godi ymwybyddiaeth ymhlith pobl sut y gallan nhw gael remedy pan fydd pethau'n mynd yn anghywir. Achos dŷn ni'n dweud bod Cymru wedi bod ar flaen y gad o ran y maes hawliau dynol o ran sut rŷn ni'n talu sylw i hawliau plant, er enghraifft, ond, yn aml iawn, dŷn ni hefyd yn gweld penderfyniadau'n cael eu gwneud gan gyrff cyhoeddus a'r Llywodraeth sy'n mynd yn erbyn yr hawliau hynny. Felly, dwi'n meddwl, mae'n jest ei wneud e'n glir i bobl beth gallan nhw ei ddisgwyl, ac mae meddwl am y fframwaith yna o treaties y Cenhedloedd Unedig yn ffordd y gallwn ni sicrhau bod yna ymwybyddiaeth, fod yna weithredu yn gallu digwydd. Ond dwi'n glir iawn fy mod i eisiau ei wneud e'n haws. Dwi eisiau stopio'r problemau yma rhag digwydd yn y lle cyntaf. Felly, dwi'n gobeithio bydd e'n rhoi arweiniad ac yn rhoi cymorth i sefydliadau cyhoeddus er mwyn iddyn nhw sicrhau nad ydyn nhw yn tramgwyddo hawliau dynol pobl, â'r holl mae hynny'n ei olygu i bobl yn eu bywydau dydd i ddydd.
Well, I was chair of the cross-party group on human rights in the previous Senedd, and we held an inquiry and published a report on how, currently, people aren't either aware of their rights or aren't able to see those rights being deployed in their daily lives. So, we heard evidence from disabled people, we heard evidence from people and organisations looking at women's rights; we looked at people from minority ethnic backgrounds. There were a number of stakeholders who participated, and they were able to provide specific examples of where things weren't operating as they should. We heard very powerful evidence about the Stolen Lives campaign, for example. This was an example where there were people who had learning disabilities being kept, in contravention of their human rights, in hospitals that weren't appropriate for them. Because there wasn't provision for them to live independently, they were being placed, and locked, indeed, in institutions that didn't respect their human rights.
So, what I want this Bill to be is a kind of framework to help organisations in Wales to make the right decisions, to understand what those rights mean for people's lives on a daily basis, to help to raise awareness amongst people about how they can receive remedy and redress when things go wrong. Because, we say that Wales has been in the vanguard when it comes to human rights in terms of how we pay attention to children's rights, for example, but we often see decisions being made by public bodies and by Government that contravene those rights. So, I do think it's about making it clear to people what they can expect, and thinking about that framework of the UN treaties is a way that we can ensure that there is awareness and that there is action. But I am very clear that I want to make it easier. I want to stop these problems from arising in the first instance. So, I hope that it will provide leadership and support to public organisations to ensure that they don't contravene people's human rights, with all of the implications that has for people in their daily lives.
Diolch. Laura Anne Jones.
Thank you very much. You talk about human rights, and you actually mentioned women's rights just then. I just want to ask you, in light of the Supreme Court ruling, which was back in April 2025 now, quite a significant amount of time ago—. It clearly defined the definition of sex in law and stated that a woman is a biological woman. Regardless of anyone's thoughts on that, that is the letter of the law. So, I was just wondering when this Welsh Government will enable women to have rights in Wales, to ensure that all policy areas, all action plans, will adhere to the law and uphold those women's rights, who have the right to single-sex wards, single-sex spaces and their own sports. Diolch.
Diolch. Well, as you'll know, the EHRC code of practice for services, public functions and associations came into force on 5 August. We are complying with our legal duties in respect of the Equality Act 2010, and all bodies and service providers must ensure themselves that they are complying with the law. We're absolutely clear on that. And so consistent application then requires consideration—careful consideration—of the guidance in each situation as regards those services that are being provided. And as you will know, the guidance provides examples—helpful examples—to bodies to help them apply the law in their particular circumstances. So, it's simple: the Welsh Government expects all organisations to comply with the law, and we've clearly stated that, but it is for the EHRC as the regulator to be able to monitor that.
Absolutely, so—. Sorry, Chair. So, this Government now has issued that guidance to all your relevant bodies, and your Ministers are adapting policies and the LGBTQ+ action plan, for example, to adhere to that, or is there more of a timeline, that we're still reviewing?
Well, just to be clear, it's not the Welsh Government's responsibility to issue the guidance. It's the responsibility of the EHRC to issue the guidance.
Yes, but it was held up last time, wasn't it, Minister, because the Welsh Government wanted to input into it and ensure that it had a Welsh angle to it? That was the hold up, I was told by the previous Government, if you remember, because you were in the Chamber with me. I'm just wondering—. So, there is no hold up now. That is what you expect as a Government, and you will be adapting your policies accordingly on what you do have responsibility for in line with the law.
The Welsh Government will be held to account by the regulator in the same way as the bodies that are in Wales are held to account by the EHRC. It is not for the Welsh Government to issue that guidance.
Yes, I know.
But, obviously, the Welsh guidance will be lawful, in that it will also adhere to that guidance.
Okay, excellent, that's good. So, when are we going to see those new action plans in place, just so everyone's human rights are upheld?
I don't know if—. Amelia, do you want to take that question as regards the work on that?
Yes, absolutely. In terms of the LGBTQ+ action plan, that came to an end at the end of the last Government term, so we're carrying out an evaluation of that to see what works, the barriers that exist et cetera. We'll be advising the Minister, then, next year on how to go forward in terms of actions around LGBTQ+ equality. The gender equality action plan actually lasted for longer than that and went over into this term as well. Again, we're reviewing what's working, what's not, the barriers facing women, so that we can again advise the Minister, who's been very, very clear that what she wants us to focus on is tangible impacts for people in Wales. So, it's about that, what are the greatest levers for driving gender equality.
Okay. A last quick question on that. So, as the equality Minister, you are going to take responsibility to ensure that all Ministers across all portfolios are adhering to that law and adapting, for example, NHS policy in Wales accordingly.
Well, as I said before, it is for the EHRC to monitor that. Obviously, for those things that are—. For instance, health—the responsibility for that then lies with the governance structure of the health boards, the people who deliver health services. The Government doesn't deliver health services. The boards that do the services and the public services that do provide those services, they are the ones who are responsible for making sure that they are compliant with the law, and the EHRC will give them guidance and monitor them on that.
Thank you. Sarah Rees.
Just a follow-up question on that. One of the roles of the EHRC is to help organisations to understand their legal rights when it comes to some of these processes. This is something that is so complex that one of the advice points from the EHRC is, if you don't understand it, to get legal advice, which seems to be counter to why they're there in the first place. Is that something that you're questioning them on, or is that something that this committee could question? Is there any consideration being made to—we've got a number of protected groups in law—how we ensure that they have access to services, given the complexity of this and how people are then having to go and get their own legal advice to make sure that they're doing the right thing?
Again, as I said, it is the EHRC's responsibility. The committee could have a view on how helpful or not that guidance is. I would suggest that that is something that the committee could explore, because I know there are concerns, but that isn't a role for Government.
Thank you.
Thank you. We're about halfway through, so I was going to suggest a couple of minutes' break, if that's okay—happy, everyone? Thank you.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:28 a 10:38.
The meeting adjourned between 10:28 and 10:38.
Okay, we'll move on to the next topic on the agenda. So, we'll start with equality and social justice. Joe Martin.
I brought something up at First Minister's questions, but I didn't receive an answer that I was satisfied with, so I just wanted to raise it with you again as it falls under your purview. There's a scheme called the ethnic minority initial teacher education scheme, and that pays £5,000 to ethnic minority students who want to become teachers. Now, that money isn't available to them if they have the wrong skin colour. So, if they're white, then they can't have that money. Now, that plainly, obviously, discriminates according to skin colour. It's by definition, therefore, racist. Now, I understand that you want a level playing field for people regardless of their skin colour, but that's being achieved—if it is being achieved—with racial discrimination. So, I don't know why this Government thinks it's okay to discriminate in accordance to skin colour. And would you be able to shed some light as to why you think that's okay?
Wel, dwi'n gwrthod yr awgrym bod y Llywodraeth yma yn discrimineiddio yn ôl tras ethnig rhywun. Beth rydyn ni yn ei wneud, a beth mae'r cynlluniau gweithredu cydraddoldeb sydd o fewn fy mhortffolio i a fy nghyfrifoldebau i fel Gweinidog, sydd, wrth gwrs, wedyn yn mynd ar draws y Llywodraeth, er enghraifft mewn addysg, yn ei wneud yw sicrhau bod y rheini sy'n wynebu'r rhwystrau mwyaf yn eu bywydau yn cael eu cefnogi fel ein bod ni yn sicrhau bod yr anfantais mae pobl yn ei brofi—ac mae gennym ni lot o dystiolaeth o ran hynny y gallaf i ei darparu i'r pwyllgor os yw rhai Aelodau ddim yn ymwybodol o'r dystiolaeth honno—ein bod ni'n sicrhau bod y bobl yna yn cael y gefnogaeth sydd ei hangen er mwyn gwneud y llawr yn wastad iddyn nhw.
Well, I reject the suggestion that this Government discriminates according to someone's ethnic background. What we are doing, and what the equality action plans that fall within my portfolio and responsibility as a Minister, which then run across the Government, for instance into education, do is to ensure that those who are facing the greatest obstacles in their lives are supported so that we do ensure that the disadvantage that people experience—and we have a great deal of evidence of that, which I can provide to the committee if some Members are not aware of that evidence—that we ensure that those people receive the support that they need in order to make things equal for them.
Thank you. Sarah Rees.
Thank you. I think that what Joe was maybe clunkily referring to is positive action that's being taken to tackle barriers to equality. So, I'd be really keen to hear what actions the Welsh Government is taking to tackle gender inequality and whether you have—I'm not sure whether it comes into your portfolio—had any evaluation of—it was quite delayed—the previous work that the Welsh Government did on gender budgeting pilots and to see if that will be taken forward at all.
Sorry, I missed the last part of your question.
The last part was as to whether you've taken any consideration of the delayed evaluation of the gender budgeting pilots that were done in the previous Government. I'm not sure whether that part comes under your portfolio, but if it does, then maybe you could come to that. That would be fantastic. Thank you.
Diolch. Wel, jest i ddweud yn gyffredinol bod ein rhaglen lywodraethu, a gafodd ei chyhoeddi ddoe, wrth gwrs, yn adlewyrchu ein penderfyniad ni a'n nod ni fel Llywodraeth i weithio gyda phobl, yn enwedig pobl sydd â phrofiad byw, o ran sicrhau cydraddoldeb. Mae ein ffocws ni, fel rydyn ni wedi sôn yn barod, ar ddelifro allbynnau real y mae pobl yn gallu eu teimlo yn eu bywydau bob dydd a chryfhau, wedyn, wrth gwrs, delivery o'r cynlluniau sydd gennym ni er mwyn sicrhau hynny. Felly, er enghraifft, o ran cydraddoldeb rhywedd, rydyn ni'n gwneud hwn ar draws nifer o'n cynlluniau cydraddoldeb, ond mae cydraddoldeb rhywedd, wrth gwrs, yn hollbwysig yn y gwaith yma, ac mae sicrhau ein bod ni'n gwneud—. Rydyn ni'n gwybod, er enghraifft, am y gender pay gap, onid ydym ni? Mae hynny'n rhywbeth sy'n arddangos yn glir fod yna bell o ffordd i fynd ar y gwaith yma o sicrhau cydraddoldeb rhywedd. Wrth gwrs, yn fy mhortffolio i, mae gennym ni'n cynnig gofal plant. Dwi'n gobeithio y bydd yn gwneud gwahaniaeth. Bydd yn sicrhau bod mwy o ferched yn gallu ymgymryd â gwaith, neu gynyddu eu horiau gwaith neu'n gallu ymgymryd â hyfforddiant ac addysg, ac yn y blaen, fydd yn eu galluogi nhw i ddod dros y rhwystrau sydd yna ar gyfer mamau yn enwedig.
Ac wedyn, wrth gwrs, o ran yr economi a sgils yn fwy cyffredinol, mae sgiliau yn rhywbeth y mae Gweinidogion eraill yn yr adran addysg a hefyd yr economi yn edrych arno o ran ein nod ni o sicrhau bod yna fwy o gydraddoldeb o fewn y cynlluniau gwaith, prentisiaethau ac yn y blaen, sydd gennym ni. Fe glywon ni dipyn am hynny gan y Prif Weinidog ddoe, felly wnaf i ddim ailadrodd hynny.
O ran y gender budgeting yn benodol, efallai y gwnaf i basio at Amelia ar hynny.
Thank you. Just to say in general that our programme for government, which was announced yesterday, reflects our determination, our objective as a Government to work with people, particularly those people who have lived experience, in terms of ensuring equality. And our focus, as we've already mentioned, is on delivering outputs that are real, tangible, that people can feel in their daily lives, and strengthening, then, the delivery of the programmes that we have to ensure that that happens. So, for example, in terms of gender equality, we do this across a number of our schemes with regard to equality, but gender equality is, of course, vital in this work. And ensuring that— . We know, for example, about the gender pay gap, don't we? That's something where it is clearly obvious that there is further work to be done when it comes to ensuring gender equality. And in my portfolio, we have the childcare offer, which I hope will make a difference and will ensure that more women can enter the world of work or increase their working hours, or can undertake training and education opportunities and so on that will enable them to overcome the barriers that do exist for mothers in particular.
And then, of course, in terms of the economy and skills more generally, skills are something that other Ministers in the education department and in the economy department are looking at in terms of our objective to ensure that there is greater equality within the work and employability and apprenticeship programmes that we already have. And we heard about that from the First Minister yesterday, didn't we, so I won't rehearse those comments.
In terms of gender budgeting specifically, perhaps I'll pass you over to Amelia on that.
Thank you. That does fall within the remit of the Cabinet Minister for Finance, and there was, indeed, as you'll know, a group that advised the previous administration around gender budgeting. I know that they had some really excellent pilots and reports from that, there was lots of learning from that. I'd be very happy, if the Minister's happy for us to do so, to get an update from our Treasury colleagues on this and write to the committee around those gender budgeting pilots and the advice that's now going forward to the Cabinet Minister for Finance.
Thank you very much. Just following up from that, whilst it does seem a long time ago to many, the closure of Chwarae Teg—. I was someone who benefited from support from Chwarae Teg when I was setting up a social enterprise. I know that, at some point, we'll be coming to the impact of funding for the third sector. Since Chwarae Teg has disappeared, we've got fewer women's equality organisations in Wales, and less—. The impact—there was so much that Chwarae Teg did to address income for women in Wales. I think it was over £1 million that they brought to women's incomes in Wales. So, it would be interesting to learn what could be done across portfolio to support women in the economy. Thank you.
Diolch. Ie, dwi’n cymryd y pwynt. Fel roeddwn i’n sôn, mae yna ffyrdd o sicrhau ein bod ni’n ymgysylltu nid yn unig ar draws y Cabinet, ond hefyd gyda Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol, ble mae nifer o’r grymoedd economaidd a’r ddeddfwriaeth sy’n ymwneud gyda’r gweithle, er enghraifft, yn eu dwylo nhw. Ond beth rŷn ni’n ceisio’i wneud, drwy’r cynlluniau sydd gyda ni—ac maen nhw'n bennaf, fel roeddwn i’n dweud, yn yr agenda sgiliau, ond hefyd yn yr agenda yn ymwneud â thwf economaidd, a’r productivity mission sydd gan y Llywodraeth—yw ein bod ni'n edrych yn benodol. Ac fe fyddaf i’n cadw llygad barcud ar hynny a sicrhau bod yna elfen a lens rhywedd yn cael ei gymryd i’r cynlluniau hynny.
Thank you. Yes, I take the point. As I was mentioning, there are ways of ensuring that we engage, not just across the Cabinet, but also with the UK Government, where several of the economic powers and legislation relating to the workplace, for instance, lie in their hands. But, what we are seeking to do, through the schemes that we have—and they are, mainly, as I said, part of the skills agenda, but also the agenda around economic growth, and the productivity mission that the Government has—is that we look at this specifically. And I will be keeping a close eye on that and ensuring that there is a gender element or lens that is applied to those schemes.
One of the things that I know that Steve is passionate about is support for fathers as well, and there was an action during the end of the summer with a parent protest that was really calling on the UK Government to support shared parental leave and better leave for fathers and non-birthing parents. I wondered if there's any conversation that you're having with the UK Government on some of those policies that sit at that UK level that can really improve gender inequality.
Wel, dwi’n agored iawn i wneud hynny. Dydyn nhw ddim yn bethau, fel rydych chi wedi cydnabod, sydd o fewn ein grymoedd ni fel Llywodraeth. Ond rŷn ni, wrth gwrs, yn ceisio annog cyflogwyr yng Nghymru i fod yn flaengar o ran eu polisïau nhw. Dylanwadu rŷn ni’n ceisio’i wneud, ac, wrth gwrs, mae gyda ni’r bwrdd partneriaeth gymdeithasol, a dyma’r mathau o bethau y gallwn ni fod yn eu trafod yn hynny. A gwaith teg—mae hynny, wrth gwrs, yn ymwneud hefyd â thegwch i’r gweithlu, yn yr ystyr eu bod nhw'n teimlo, oherwydd eu bod nhw’n rhieni, er enghraifft, nad ydyn nhw'n cael y chwarae teg sydd ei angen arnyn nhw.
Felly, dwi’n agored i hyn. Mae hwn yn rhywbeth sydd yn eistedd yn fwy o fewn y portffolio economi, ond dwi’n agored iawn i sicrhau—ac yn cefnogi’r galwadau hynny—ein bod ni’n cael tegwch i rieni, i famau ac i dadau, a gofalwyr eraill.
Well, I'm open to doing that. They aren't things, as you've mentioned, that are within our powers as a Government. But we do seek to encourage employers in Wales to be progressive in terms of their policies. We seek to influence. We have the social partnership board, and these are the kinds of things that we could be discussing in that forum. And fair work—that, of course, relates to fairness for the workforce, in the sense that they feel, because they are parents, for example, that they don't receive the fair play that they need at present.
So, I'm open to this. This is something that sits more within the economy portfolio, but I'm very open to ensuring—and I support those calls—that we receive fairness for parents, mothers and fathers, and for other carers.
Thank you. Laura Anne Jones.
Diolch, Chair. Minister, just firstly, I'd like to ask—. You obviously inherited a lot of action plans—equality action plans—from the last Government. I was just wondering which ones you were going to adopt.
Secondly, I think we took big strides in terms of equality in the last Senedd. And I don't know about you, Minister, and Jayne, but I was very proud to be a part of that. And that was, of course, the British Sign Language (Wales) Act 2026. I thought that was a wonderful thing that we managed to achieve in the last Senedd—I'm sorry, and Jane over there as well. I'm just wondering where you are with the implementation of that. Diolch.
Ocê. Mi wnaf i gymryd rhan gyntaf y cwestiwn cyntaf. Rydych chi’n iawn, mae yna sawl cynllun gweithredu cydraddoldeb o fewn y portffolio yma. Fel roeddwn i wedi sôn, mae rhai ohonyn nhw wedi dod i ben—er enghraifft, y cynllun gweithredu LHDTC+. Ond mae yna rai sy’n parhau, wedi parhau, y tu hwnt i oes y Llywodraeth ddiwethaf—er enghraifft, y disabled people’s rights plan. Felly, mi oedd gwaith mawr wedi mynd mewn i’r cynllun yna, lle roedd yna lot fawr o bobl oedd â phrofiad byw wedi bwydo i mewn i hynny. Dwi’n glir iawn nad ydw i eisiau i’r holl egni a’r holl ymroddiad yna gael ei wastraffu, achos dwi yn meddwl bod yna bethau gwerthfawr tu hwnt yn y cynllun yna, ac, mewn gwirionedd, fe ddaeth e’n hwyr iawn—y cyhoeddi—yn oes y Llywodraeth ddiwethaf. Felly, dwi’n meddwl bod yna gyfle nawr i ni ddechrau gweithredu yn hytrach na jest creu’r cynllun. Felly, dwi ddim eisiau cymryd oes y Llywodraeth yma yn creu mwy o gynlluniau cydraddoldeb. Dwi’n meddwl bod lot o bethau gyda ni y gallwn ni adeiladu arnyn nhw; mae’r cynllun hawliau pobl anabl yn un ohonyn nhw.
Ond beth dwi wedi gofyn i fy swyddogion wneud, ac i’r rhanddeiliaid sy’n ein cynghori ni ar y cynlluniau yma, yw edrych ar—. Rŷn ni’n edrych ar beth ddylai’r ffocws fod nawr wrth symud ymlaen—blaenoriaethu pa weithredoedd fyddai'n cael yr effaith fwyaf ar fywydau pobl. Mae'r un peth yn wir am yr 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. Mae hynny, ar hyn o bryd, yn cael ei werthuso. Felly, mae'r gwaith yna yn mynd i—. A dwi'n glir iawn fy mod i eisiau edrych ar beth fyddai'n gwneud gwahaniaeth i fywydau pobl yn hynny. Pam mae rhai anghydraddoldebau dal yn bodoli? Pa ymyriadau fyddai'n gwneud y gwahaniaeth mwyaf? Felly, mae adroddiad ar hynny, interim report ar y gwaith gwerthuso yna. Mae disgwyl i ni gael hynny yn y gwanwyn flwyddyn nesaf.
Felly, dwi'n meddwl hefyd, wrth gwrs, eich bod chi'n gwybod—. Dŷn ni wedi creu y dashboard sydd wedi cael ei gyhoeddi yn yr haf, ac fe fydd mwy o ddata yn dod trwy hynny wrth i fwy o ddata ddod ar gael. Felly, dwi'n glir iawn nad ydw i eisiau dechrau gwaith o'r newydd jest er mwyn dechrau gwaith o'r newydd. Dwi'n meddwl, yn sicr o ran rhai o'r cynlluniau yma, fod yna yn sicr bethau y gallwn ni adeiladu arnyn nhw. Beth dwi'n glir arno fe yw fy mod i eisiau gweld gwahaniaeth yn cael ei wneud i fywydau pobl. Nid jest rhestr o beth rŷn ni'n ei wneud, sy'n glodwiw ac yn dda, ddylai cynlluniau fod, ond pethau sy'n arwain at newid ym mywydau pobl.
Okay. So, I'll take the first part of the qusetion first of all. So, you're right, there are several equality action plans within this portfolio. As I mentioned, some of them have come to an end, for instance, the LGBTQ+, but others have extended beyond the age of the previous Government, for instance the disabled people's rights plan. So, major work went into that scheme, where there were a great deal of people with lived experience who had fed into that. I am very clear that i don't want all that energy and all that commitment to be wasted, because I do think that there are extremely valuable things in that plan, and, frankly, the announcement was quite late in the time of the previous Government. So, I think that we have an opportunity now just to act rather than create a plan. So, I don't want to take the whole of this Government to create more plans in terms of equality. I think we have a great many things that we can build on; the disabled people's plan is one of them.
But what I've asked my officials to do, and the stakeholders who are advising us on these plans to do, is to look at what the focus should be now as we progress, to prioritise what actions would have the greatest impact on people's lives. The same is true of the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. That is currently being evaluated. So, that work is going to—. And I'm very clear that I want to look at what will make a difference to people's lives in relation to that. Why do some inequalities still remain in place? What would make the biggest difference there? So, there's a report on that, an interim report on that evaluation work, which we expect to see next spring.
So, I also think, of course, you will know—. We have created a dashboard that was published over the summer, and there will be more data coming through on that as more data becomes available. So, I am very clear that I do not want to start something new just for the sake of starting something new. I think, certainly in terms of some of these plans, there are certainly things we can build on. What I am clear about is that I want to see a difference being made in people's lives. Plans should not just be a list of the actions that we take, which are praiseworthy and good, but things that lead to a change in people's lives.
And if you could just comment on my second question.
Oh, yes, on British Sign Language.
Roedd e'n garreg filltir ofnadwy o bwysig, onid oedd e? Dwi'n meddwl, nid yn unig y mae'r ddeddfwriaeth yma yn mynd i wella cefnogaeth a pharch at bobl sy'n defnyddio BSL, ond hefyd mae e'n rhywbeth, dwi'n meddwl, sydd really wedi codi ymwybyddiaeth. Dwi'n cofio, eto, bod yn rhan o'r pwyllgor yma a oedd yn craffu ar y ddeddfwriaeth, a'r arweiniad yna gawson ni gan Mark Isherwood. Roedd e'n rhywbeth fydd yn aros gyda fi am byth. Dwi'n siŵr y bydd Jane, efallai, fel cyn-aelod o'r pwyllgor, yn cytuno. Jest i ni werthfawrogi, fel pobl sy'n medru clywed ac sydd ddim yn defnyddio BSL, beth yw'r rhwystrau a beth yw'r rhwystredigaethau hefyd o ran pobl sy'n defnyddio BSL—.
Felly, o ran hynny, o ran y cynnydd dŷn ni wedi ei wneud, wrth gwrs, fe ddaeth e i rym jest cyn diwedd y Senedd ddiwethaf, diwedd Ebrill, ac ers hynny, ers i hynny ddod i rym a bod ar y llyfr statud, mae swyddogion wedi dechrau gwaith ar strategaeth genedlaethol BSL ac, wrth gwrs, y canllawiau statudol oedd yn rhan o'r hyn roedd y Ddeddf yn gofyn amdano, ac mae'n rhaid i'r ddau beth yna gael eu cyhoeddi o fewn 18 mis i basio'r Bil. Felly, mae'r gwaith wir wedi dechrau ar hyn. Rŷn ni wedi cael sesiwn gyda grŵp rhanddeiliaid BSL i gael eu barn gychwynnol nhw ar beth ddylai’r strategaeth yna edrych fel, ar beth ddylai’r canllawiau edrych fel, ac rŷn ni hefyd yn bwrw ymlaen gyda recriwtio yr ymgynghorydd BSL. Fe gofiwch chi, roedd hynny'n rhan bwysig iawn o'r Ddeddf, ac roedden ni'n glir iawn fod rhaid inni gael yr ymgynghorydd yna mewn lle cyn gynted ag y bo modd er mwyn arwain y gwaith, wedyn, o sicrhau ein bod ni'n hwyluso ac yn cefnogi defnydd o BSL yng Nghymru.
That was a very important milestone, wasn't it? I think that not only will this legislation improve respect and support for BSL users, but also it's something that has really raised awareness. I remember, once again, being a member of the committee that was scrutinising that legislation, and the guidance that we received from Mark Isherwood. That was something that will stay with me for life. I think that Jane, perhaps, as a fellow former member of that committee, will agree. It was just about us appreciating, as hearing people, as people who do not use BSL, what the obstacles are and what the frustrations are as well for people who use BSL.
So, on that and on the progress we have made, of course, it came into force just before the end of the previous Senedd, at the end of April, and since then, since it's come into force and gone onto the statute book, officials have started work on the national strategy on BSL and, of course, the statutory guidance that were a part of what the Act was calling for, and those two things have to be published within 18 months of the passing of the Bill. So, the work has truly started on that. We've had a session with the BSL stakeholder group to get their initial views on what that strategy should look like, what the guidance should look like, and we are also now recruiting the BSL adviser. You'll recall that that was a very important part of the legislation, and we were very clear that we needed to get that adviser in place as soon as possible so that they could lead the work, then, of ensuring that we facilitate and support the use of BSL in Wales.
Brilliant, thanks. Diolch.
Okay. If there are no more questions on equality and social justice, I'm happy to move on. So, the next topic we're covering is violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. Sarah Rees.
Thank you. Minister, I'd like to ask how the findings of the completed violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy review will shape the new strategy that's due by summer 2027, and how we address implementation gaps that have been identified by the national adviser and specialist stakeholders. And would you be sharing the review of findings and recommendations with the committee?
Diolch yn fawr. Roedd hwn yn un o'r meysydd gwaith o fewn fy mhortffolio y gwnaethon ni ddechrau arno yn gyflym o fewn y 100 diwrnod cyntaf. Rŷch chi'n gwybod, wrth gwrs, ei bod yn ofyniad statudol i Lywodraeth newydd adolygu y strategaeth ar ôl dod i rym, ac fe wnaethon ni benderfynu bod hwn yn mynd i fod yn un o'r pethau cyntaf y byddem ni'n ei wneud. Byddwch chi efallai yn cofio fy mod i'n gadeirydd y grŵp trawsbleidiol yn y Senedd ddiwethaf ar drais yn erbyn merched a phlant, felly mae hwn yn rhywbeth roeddwn i'n angerddol iawn yn ei gylch ac yn gwybod bod yn rhaid inni edrych ar y bylchau sydd yn dal i fodoli o ran y strategaeth.
Felly, fe wnaethon ni wneud adolygiad statudol cyflym o fewn y 100 diwrnod cyntaf. Roedd yr adolygiad yna'n cynnwys goroeswyr, pobl sy'n darparu gwasanaethau arbenigol, partneriaid, wrth gwrs, sy'n delifro elfennau o'r strategaeth i ni, ac, wrth gwrs, yr ymgynghorydd cenedlaethol, Jo Robinson. Felly, fe fydd casgliadau'r adolygiad yna nawr yn bwydo i mewn i'r strategaeth genedlaethol newydd.
Felly, ddydd Llun, fel mae'n digwydd, fe wnes i drafod hyn yn y Cabinet. Mi wnes i fynd â phapur i'r Cabinet am y strategaeth a beth fydd yr amserlen o ran y strategaeth newydd, ac fe wnes i bwysleisio yn fanna bwysigrwydd bod hyn yn cael ei weld a'i ddeall ar draws pob portffolio er mwyn dod â VAWDASV i ben. Felly, maen nhw'n rhannu'r uchelgais, mae'r holl Lywodraeth yn rhannu'r uchelgais, fod rhaid i hwn fod yn ddull Llywodraeth a system gyfan. A dwi wedi cael dau gyfarfod buddiol iawn a phositif iawn ers dod i'r rôl yma gyda'r ymgynghorydd cenedlaethol, Jo Robinson, ac rŷn ni wedi bod yn trafod yr hyn sydd angen ei wneud.
Felly, o ran yr hyn rŷn ni wedi'i weld yn barod—ac fel dwi'n dweud, rŷn ni'n dal nawr yn ymgynghori ar hyn a'n gweld sut yn union y bydd hwn yn cymryd siâp o fewn y strategaeth newydd—dwi'n meddwl taw un o'r bylchau y mae'n rhaid inni eu hystyried o ran y strategaeth newydd yw niwed arlein. Mae hwn yn rhywbeth sy'n dod i'r amlwg fwyfwy ac yn rhywbeth sydd, efallai—. Dyw e ddim yn newydd erbyn hyn, ond mae e'n rhywbeth sy'n dal i ddatblygu, gyda deallusrwydd artiffisial ac yn y blaen. [Anghlywadwy.] Ie.
Thank you very much. This was one of the areas of work within my portfolio that we started work on very swiftly within the first 100 days. You'll know, of course, that it's a statutory requirement for a new Government to review the strategy after being elected, and we decided that this was going to be one of the first things that we would do. You'll perhaps remember that I was chair of the cross-party group in the previous Senedd on violence against women and children, so this is something that I felt very passionately about and I knew that we needed to look at the gaps that continue to exist in terms of the strategy.
So, we undertook a very swift statutory review within the first 100 days. That review included survivors, people who provide expert services, partners, of course, who deliver elements of the strategy on our behalf, and, of course, the national adviser, Jo Robinson. So, the findings of that review will now feed into the new national strategy.
So, on Monday, as it happens, I discussed this in the Cabinet. I presented a paper to the Cabinet about the strategy and what the timescale will be in terms of the new strategy, and I emphasised there the importance of this being seen and understood across every portfolio in order to bring VAWDASV to an end. So, they share the ambition, the entire Government shares the ambition, that this has to be a whole-system and cross-governmental approach. And I have had two very positive and beneficial meetings since entering this role with the national adviser, Jo Robinson, and we have been discussing what needs to be done.
So, in terms of what we've already seen being done—and as I said, we're still consulting on this and thinking about how this will take shape in the next strategy—I think that one of the gaps that we need to consider in terms of the new strategy is online harm. This is something that is becoming increasingly prominent and is something that, perhaps—. It's not new, but it is something that continues to develop with artificial intelligence and so on. [Inaudible.] Yes.
One thing I was going to mention on that specifically was social media and the increase in misogyny and whether that's being considered.
So, hynny—. Ie, abuse trwy tech, yntefe, drwy gyfryngau cymdeithasol, trwy ymddygiad—coercive and controlling behaviour. Rŷn ni'n gwybod bod hwn yn rhywbeth sydd efallai heb gael y sylw na'r gydnabyddiaeth ei fod e'n fath ddifrifol iawn o gam-drin domestig. Mae stelcio, post-separation abuse—mae hwnna'n rhywbeth sy'n gallu digwydd—ac, wrth gwrs, trais rhywiol.
Felly, y prif beth arall sydd wedi dod mas yn gryf hyd yn hyn yw'r angen i gael atebolrwydd gwell ar gyfer y cyrff hynny sydd i fod, o dan y Ddeddf, i ddelifro ar eu dyletswyddau VAWDASV. Felly, mae'r ymgynghorydd cenedlaethol yn glir iawn, a dwi'n cytuno â hi, fod yna fwy sydd angen ei wneud o ran sicrhau bod y dyletswyddau statudol yna o dan y Ddeddf yn fwy amlwg, a bod yna rôl arweiniol gryfach o fewn y cyrff hynny, yn enwedig, efallai, o ran awdurdodau lleol a byrddau iechyd. Ac rŷn ni'n gwybod bod iechyd yn chwarae rhan bwysig iawn yn y frwydr yna i ddod â thrais yn erbyn menywod a cham-drin domestig i ben.
So, that—. Yes, abuse via tech, through social media, through behaviour—coercive and controlling behaviour. We know that this is something that perhaps hasn't received the attention or the recognition that it warrants, that it's a very serious kind of domestic abuse. There's stalking, post-separation abuse—that is something that can happen—and, of course, sexual violence.
So, the other main thing that's come through very strongly in this is the need for better accountability for those bodies that are meant, under the legislation, to deliver on their duties with regard to VAWDASV. So, the national adviser is very clear, and I agree with her, that there is more that needs to be done in terms of ensuring that the statutory duties under the Act are more prominent, and that there is a stronger leadership role within those bodies, particularly, perhaps, in terms of local authorities and health boards. And we know that health plays a very important role in that battle to bring violence against women and domestic abuse to an end.
And I think this is maybe where we see the connection with a human rights Bill for Wales, particularly when we consider children. Is there any consideration of that cross-over? I'd like to ask whether you will respond to the review's findings on children's needs and recognising children as victims in their own right when it comes to domestic abuse and violence against women.
Dwi'n meddwl bod angen i hynny fod yn ystyriaeth ganolog o ran y strategaeth newydd. Mae yna waith yn digwydd drwy'r children and young people blueprint work stream ar hyn o bryd, sydd yn cynnwys ymgysylltu gyda phlant a phobl ifanc ar draws Cymru—mapio'r gwasanaethau arbenigol sydd ar gael ar eu cyfer nhw a chryfhau'r llwybrau yna, wedyn, ar gyfer eu lles a'r gefnogaeth sydd ar eu cyfer nhw. Ond mae'n rhaid i ni, dwi'n cytuno'n llwyr, sicrhau bod y strategaeth newydd yn cael ei ffurfio gan eu profiadau nhw a'n bod ni'n sicrhau bod y gefnogaeth yna, a fydd, wrth gwrs, yn briodol i oedran, yn rhoi eu lleisiau nhw, eu hanghenion nhw a'r allbynnau iddyn nhw, y canlyniadau iddyn nhw, wrth wraidd hynny. Achos dyw plant ddim jest yn dystion i gamdriniaeth, a dŷn ni'n gwybod bod lot o dystiolaeth mas yna ynglŷn â beth yw canlyniadau hynny. Ond maen nhw hefyd yn ddioddefwyr ac yn oroeswyr yn eu hawl eu hunain. Felly, dwi'n ymroi i sicrhau y bydd y strategaeth newydd yn rhoi y lleisiau yna yng nghanol hyn. Dwi ddim yn gwybod, Andrew, a ŷch chi'n moyn ychwanegu at hynny.
I think that that needs to be a central consideration in the new strategy. There is work that is currently taking place through the children and young people blueprint work stream, which includes engaging with children and young people throughout Wales—mapping out the specialist services that are available for them and strengthening those pathways, then, for their welfare and in terms of the support available to them. But I fully agree that we have to ensure that the new strategy is shaped by their experiences and that we ensure that that support, which has to be age appropriate, of course, will put their voice and their needs and the outputs and results for them at the root of that. Because children aren't just witnesses to abuse, and we know there's a great deal of evidence out there about what the results of that can be. But they're also victims and survivors in their own right. So, I do commit to ensuring that the new strategy will put those voices at the heart of it. Andrew, I don't know if you want to add anything.
Yes, just to add that we're doing some work at the moment with Swansea University and Media Academy Cymru to look at how do we engage children and young people in the conversation about the strategy. Because a really important thing that's come through the review is how do we engage the voices in that strategy. So, that work is just about to start. As we now have concluded the review, we're now on to the policy development phase, to develop the options and the actions that will come up in the new strategy next year.
Thank you. And just finally on that from me, I've spent a lot of time in my constituency with Vale Domestic Abuse Services, and one thing that comes from them, and people across the sector, is that these are charities that are trapped in funding cycles, and we should not ever be turning any woman away from a service. So, what consideration is being given to the impact of funding cycles and funding cliffs for these essential services?
Mae hynny yn rhywbeth rŷn ni wedi'i glywed, ac wedi'i glywed ers blynyddoedd maith. Roedd ein maniffesto ni yn ymrwymo, ac mae'r Llywodraeth yma yn ymrwymo, i sicrhau ein bod ni'n amddiffyn y cyllid ar gyfer y gwasanaethau arbenigol hollbwysig yna. Felly, rŷn ni'n mynd i fod, fel rhan o'r gwaith yma, yn edrych ar y ffordd y mae'r cyllid yna yn cael ei ddyrannu. Mae hynny yn gwbl ganolog, achos nhw yw'r bobl sy'n gwneud y gwaith hanfodol yma. Felly, mae cyllid yn rhan fawr o'r trafodaethau ar hyn.
That is something that we have heard, and we've heard it for several years. Our manifesto commits, and this Government commits, to ensuring that we protect the funding for those crucial specialist services. So, we are, as part of this work, going to be looking at the way that that funding is allocated. That is at the heart of this work, because these are the people who do this vital work. So, funding is a major part of the discussions on this.
Jane Dodds.
Mae yna gymaint, onid oes, y gallwch chi ei roi yn y strategaeth yma—mae e mor bwysig. Ond dwi jest eisiau rhyw fath o sicrwydd wrthych chi, os yw hynny'n iawn, fod y strategaeth am gynnwys pobl sy'n ffoaduriaid, menywod efo anabledd, pobl sy'n ceisio lloches, er enghraifft—dyna un peth. Menywod sy'n mynd i mewn i'r carchar—dŷn ni'n gwybod, onid ydyn, eu bod nhw, fel arfer, wedi cael profiadau, yn anffodus, o drais.
A'r peth olaf, roeddwn i jest eisiau dilyn i fyny hefyd—. Dŷn ni'n gwybod, onid ydym, ei fod o mor bwysig i atal hyn, a hynny yw gweithio efo bechgyn a dynion ifanc. A allwch chi jest roi rhyw fath o sicrwydd ynglŷn â'r ddau beth cyntaf, ac wedyn jest dweud tipyn bach am y gwaith sy'n mynd ymlaen, neu sy'n cael ei ddarparu, efallai, ar gyfer bechgyn a dynion ifanc trwy addysg? Diolch yn fawr iawn.
There's so much that you could put into this strategy—it's so important. But I just want some kind of assurance from you, if that's all right, that the strategy will include people who are refugees, women who have disabilities, people who are seeking asylum, for instance—that's one thing. Women who go into prison—we do know that, usually, they have had experiences of violence, unfortunately.
And finally, I just wanted to follow up as well—. We do know, don't we, how important it is to prevent this, and that is working with boys and young men. Could you give us some assurance about the first two things, and then talk a little about the work that is going on, or is being provided, for boys and young men via education? Thank you very much.
Diolch yn fawr. Rŷch chi'n hollol llygad eich lle. Rŷn ni'n gwybod bod rhaid inni gymryd approach intersectional at hyn. Rŷn ni'n gwybod bod yn rhaid inni ddeall a chadw ar flaen ein meddyliau ni, gyda datblygiad y strategaeth newydd hon, sut mae nodweddion eraill fel tlodi, fel hil a chefndir ethnig, fel oedran, fel anabledd, ac yn y blaen, sut mae'r rheini—. Dyw pobl ddim yn profi camdriniaeth yn yr un ffordd, ac mae'n rhaid inni adlewyrchu hynny yn ein strategaeth, a sicrhau bod y math priodol o gefnogaeth a chymorth ar gael iddyn nhw. Felly, dwi'n cydnabod hynny yn llwyr.
Dyw goroeswyr ddim yn un grŵp, ydyn nhw? Mae eu profiadau nhw yn amrywiol iawn, mae eu sefyllfaoedd nhw yn amrywiol iawn. Felly, fel roeddwn i'n dweud, rŷn ni wedi ymroi i sicrhau ein bod ni'n gwrando ar y profiadau hynny, yn dysgu wrthyn nhw, y bobl yna sydd ddim jest yn un math o grŵp, er mwyn sicrhau bod ein polisïau ni a'n gwasanaethu ni yn adlewyrchu y gwahaniaeth hwnnw.
O ran atal, wrth gwrs, mae atal yn un o'r pethau rŷn ni'n defnyddio i arwain ein holl waith ar draws y Llywodraeth, a dwi'n cytuno'n llwyr, eto, ynglŷn â phwysigrwydd y gwaith yma. Rŷch chi siŵr o fod yn ymwybodol ynglŷn â'r rhaglenni sydd gyda ni—y Sound campaign—lle rŷn ni'n defnyddio rolau model gwrywaidd, ac mae hynny wedi profi yn llwyddiannus, felly rwyf wedi parhau â hynny. Fel roeddwn i'n dweud o'r blaen, er ein bod ni'n Llywodraeth wahanol, dwi eisiau parhau â'r pethau sydd yn gweithio, ac mae hynny wedi profi ei fod e'n effeithiol, ac fe fyddem ni'n hoffi adeiladu ar hynny, a chael mwy o syniadau o'r math yna o weithgaredd. Rŷn ni'n gwybod bod y perpetrator programmes hefyd yn bwysig iawn yn hyn o beth. Felly, gallaf i yn sicr ymroi bod yr elfen yna yn mynd i fod yn rhan greiddiol iawn o'r strategaeth newydd.
Dwi ddim yn gwybod, Andrew, a ydych chi'n moyn rhoi mwy o fanylion i ni ar y rhaglenni atal—y rhai addysg.
Thank you very much. You are entirely right. We know that we have to take an intersectional approach in this regard. We know that we need to understand and keep at the forefront of our minds, with the development of this new strategy, how other characteristics such as poverty, such as race and ethnic background, such as age, such as disability and so on, how they—. People don't experience abuse in the same way, and we need to reflect that in our strategy, and ensure that the appropriate kinds of help and support are available to those different people. So, I recognise that entirely.
Survivors aren't a single group, are they? Their experiences are very diverse, their situations are very diverse. So, as I said, we are committed to listening to those lived experiences, to learn from those people who aren't just one homogenous kind of group, in order to ensure that our policies and our services reflect that diversity and difference.
In terms of prevention, of course, prevention is one of those guiding principles for all of our work across Government, and I agree entirely with you, again, about the importance of this work. I'm sure you'll be aware of the programmes that we have—the Sound campaign—where we use male role models, and that has proved to be very successful, so I have continued with that. As I've said already, although we are a new Government, I want to continue with those things that are working, and that's proven to be effective, and we'd like to build on that, to gather further ideas of that kind of activity. We know that the perpetrator programmes are also very important in this regard. So, I can certainly give you an assurance that that element is going to be a core part of the new strategy.
I don't know, Andrew, if you want to provide further details on the preventative programmes—the education ones.
Yes. I think there's a lot, because, under the legislation, prevention is one of the key requirements for setting a new strategy. So, a lot of the conversations we're having now—. The importance of prevention came up quite strongly in the review conversations back in July, so that's going to be feeding into the new strategy. But a lot of the conversations we're having now are across Government. We're starting to talk to colleagues around what they can do to tackle this agenda and what role they can play. But prevention is a really key part both of the commitment in the programme for government and also a key part in the legislation. As the Deputy First Minister said, that strong theme around supporting men and boys, and the Sound campaign, is a really important part of that approach.
Only to say, obviously, it doesn't fall within your portfolio, Gweinidog, but I know, in education, a lot of work is going on around respectful relationships in schools, et cetera. I'm sure education colleagues will be able to provide more information about that.
Ac roedd hwn yn rhywbeth a ddaeth drwodd yn gryf iawn yn y Cabinet pan oedden ni'n trafod hyn. Wrth gwrs, fy swydd i yw sicrhau bod yr ymwybyddiaeth, y ddealltwriaeth a'r cyfrifoldeb yna yn cael eu rhannu. Felly, mi oedd hynny, er enghraifft, y cyfleon sydd yna drwy addysg cydberthynas a rhywioldeb, yn hanfodol bwysig ac yn greiddiol i hynny.
And this was something that came through very strongly in the Cabinet when we were discussing this. Of course, my role is to ensure that that awareness, understanding and responsibility are shared. So, that, for instance, those opportunities through relationships and sexuality education, was essentially important and core to that.
Diolch.
Thank you.
Thank you. We'll move on now to community cohesion and safety. Jayne Bryant.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. Community cohesion is something that's all our responsibility, but, obviously, Government has to take a lead as well. The previous Government did seek to strengthen community cohesion through its community cohesion programme. I know that you, in your priority statement, have committed to progressing the recent community cohesion expert group's recommendations. So, I'm just wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about that work, how it's likely to be measured, and how, as a committee, we can keep up to date with the work of the recommendations group.
Diolch, Jayne. Ie, dwi'n cytuno, mae gyda ni sylfeini cadarn iawn o ran y gwaith yma yn ymwneud â chydlyniant cymunedol. Eto, roeddwn i'n falch o fod yn rhan o'r pwyllgor blaenorol, a oedd wedi cadarnhau hynny mewn gwirionedd. Rŷn ni'n gwybod bod nifer yr adroddiadau, er enghraifft, am droseddau casineb yn cynyddu, ac wedi cynyddu dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, a bod polareiddio o fewn ein cymdeithas ni yn dwysáu. Dwi'n meddwl roedd nifer o argymhellion y grŵp arbenigol yn tynnu sylw yn gadarn iawn at hynny.
Felly, mae gyda ni nifer o fentrau ar waith ar hyn o bryd i helpu i feithrin cysylltiadau da, i atal casineb ac i roi cymorth i bobl sy'n profi y math yna o gasineb. Maen nhw'n cynnwys y rhaglen cydlyniant cymdeithasol, Mae casineb yn brifo Cymru—yr ymgyrch honno—ac, wrth gwrs, Canolfan Cymorth Casineb Cymru, ac, wedyn, fentrau ehangach sy'n ceisio meithrin gwytnwch yn wyneb rhai o'r naratifau niweidiol yma. Fe wnes i sôn yn gynharach ynglŷn â'r cyfryngau cymdeithasol. Wrth gwrs, dyw'r rheini ddim yn bwerau sydd gyda ni i reoleiddio ar hyn o bryd, ond dŷn ni'n edrych ar ffyrdd o adnabod naratifau ffug sy'n niweidiol a gweithio gyda phartneriaid wedyn i sefyll yn erbyn hynny.
Mae'n rhaid i ni hefyd feddwl am y pethau ehangach o fewn y portffolio. Llefydd—dwi'n grediniol bod angen i ni gael llefydd lle mae pobl yn gallu dod ynghyd, lle mae pobl yn gallu gweld ei gilydd fel pobl, ac nid eu rhoi nhw i mewn i flychau, lle mae pobl yn teimlo nad ydyn nhw'n gallu uniaethu â phrofiadau ei gilydd. Mae'n bwysig iawn ein bod ni'n uniaethu â phrofiadau ein gilydd. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod gan y sector gwirfoddol rôl fawr i'w chwarae yn hyn o beth—dod â chymunedau at ei gilydd, cryfhau'r cysylltiadau yna rhwng pobl o wahanol gefndiroedd a gwahanol brofiadau i gynyddu'r ymdeimlad yna o gynhwysiant, o berthyn ac o empathi. Dwi'n meddwl bydd hynny yn helpu efallai i leihau rhai rhaniadau, lleihau'r teimlad yna o ddatgysylltu oddi wrth ein gilydd sydd, dwi'n meddwl, yn niweidiol iawn ar gyfer ein cymdeithas. Dwi ddim yn gwybod, Andrew, os oeddech chi eisiau dod i mewn yn sydyn ar y polisi yna.
Thank you, Jayne. Yes, I agree, we have very firm foundations to build upon in terms of this work with regard to community cohesion. Again, I was very pleased to be part of the previous committee, which affirmed that, truth be told. We know that the number of reports, for example, about hate crimes are increasing, and have been increasing over the past few years, and that polarisation within our society is intensifying. I think that a number of the recommendations of the expert group drew attention very firmly to those developments.
So, we have a number of initiatives in train at the moment to help to foster positive connections, to prevent hate and to provide support to those people who experience those kinds of hate crimes. They include the community cohesion programme, Hate hurts Wales—that campaign—and, of course, the Wales Hate Support Centre, and wider initiatives that try to foster resilience in face of some of these damaging and harmful narratives. I spoke earlier about social media. Of course, those aren't powers that we have to regulate at the moment, but we are looking at ways of identifying false and fake narratives that are damaging and harmful, and then working with partners to stand against those narratives.
We also have to think about those broader matters within the portfolio. Spaces—I believe that we need to have spaces where people can come together, where people can see each other as human beings and not place them in silos or boxes where people feel that they can't identify with each other's experiences. It's very important that we do identify with each other's experiences. So, I think that the voluntary sector has a major role to play in this—bringing communities together, strengthening those connections between people from different backgrounds and different experiences to foster that sense of cohesion, of belonging and of empathy. I think that that will help, perhaps, to decrease some of those divisions, to decrease those feelings of disconnection from each other, which I think is very harmful to our society. Andrew, I don't know if you wanted to come in briefly on that policy.
Just in terms of an update on the work, the expert group reported in March, published its recommendations, so we're currently considering those recommendations as part of the ongoing work with the Deputy First Minister, and we'll be making, I'm sure, a response to that report in due course. But, over the course of that expert group, we also worked with the expert group to define and set out a set of cohesion principles, which are on the website, and that describes what cohesion looks like in Wales and how these principles would help organisations and Government understand what it looks like. So, that work is in train. There are a number of recommendations that have already been delivered, but there's work to be done on what the full response is.
We're always keen to get dates in due course. It sounds like way down the line, but, yes, it'd be good for us as a committee to maybe follow the work that you're doing on that point as well. So, I'd be very grateful if we can follow that. It's really important work.
You mentioned tackling misinformation and I think that's absolutely crucial. We've touched on social media, haven't we? But there's so much around trying to get in quite early around that misinformation that can easily get around and really cause some community cohesion issues.
I know that, on a different scale, the UK Government announced today a new agency that's going to be established. And I'm just wondering, this isn't just—. Obviously, this will be a cross-Government responsibility about how we tackle misinformation. I'm just wondering what more we can do, what you're doing in that space as well, and how you can bring people together to make sure we're tackling misinformation at source as effectively as possible.
Ie, dwi'n cymryd y pwynt ac rwy'n cytuno gyda'r pwynt. Fel roeddwn i'n dweud yn gynharach, dyw nifer o'r grymoedd y byddwn ni'n gallu eu defnyddio i reoleiddio sut mae'r camwybodaeth yn cael ei ledu ddim gyda ni. Ond, fel rwy'n dweud, dwi'n meddwl bod yna bethau y gallwn ni eu gwneud i wneud cymunedau yn fwy gwydn i wrthsefyll y camwybodaeth yna. A dŷn ni, yn amlwg, yn gweithio'n agos iawn gyda phartneriaid sydd yn gweld effaith hyn drwy'r trydydd sector a'r sector gwirfoddol, a fyddai'n gallu rhannu gyda ni syniadau a sicrhau ein bod ni'n gallu cefnogi nhw yn y mentrau sydd gyda nhw er mwyn ceisio mynd i'r afael â hyn. O ran yr asiantaeth newydd, byddai'n sicr gen i ddiddordeb i ymgysylltu gyda hynny.
Yeah, I take that point and I agree with it. As I was saying earlier, many of the powers that we could use to regulate how this misinformation is spread are not available to us. But, as I said, I do think that there are things that we can do to make communities more resilient to be able to withstand that misinformation. Obviously, we work very closely with partners who see the impact of this through the third sector and the voluntary sector, who could share with us their ideas and ensure that we are able to support them in the work that they're doing in terms of trying to tackle this. In terms of the new agency, I would certainly be interested to engage with that.
Diolch. And I just wanted to ask about the national crime prevention agency for Wales. Obviously, crime prevention is something that our communities care very deeply about. We need to make sure that we are finding some practical outcomes for communities with this. And I just wonder if you could perhaps talk a little bit about that agency and what it's expected to deliver. Again, we're keen on timelines, as I know you were on this committee, Minister. So, we're keen to have more of an idea about that.
Ie, wrth gwrs. Y syniad tu ôl i hyn yw meddwl am fodd newydd o edrych ar atal troseddau. Rŷn ni'n gwybod bod troseddu mewn nifer o wahanol ffyrdd—. Er nad oes gyda ni rym dros gyfiawnder troseddol a heddlua, mae ein pobl ni yng Nghymru yn teimlo effaith, yn amlwg, torcyfraith a throsedd. Felly, beth rŷn ni'n moyn ceisio wneud drwy weithio mewn partneriaeth yw edrych ar sut gall Cymru atal y niwed yna sy'n cael ei brofi gan gymunedau, drwy ddod at ei gilydd dystiolaeth ac arbenigedd o nifer o sectorau cyhoeddus.
Ffocws yr asiantaeth newydd yma yw sicrhau ein bod ni'n mynd i'r afael â'r hyn sy'n achosi torcyfraith yn y lle cyntaf—edrych ar ymyriad cynnar, edrych ar weithio mewn partneriaeth gryfach, fwy effeithiol, cael rhyw fath o approach sydd wedi’i gydlynu yn well ar draws y gwasanaethau a'r asiantaethau hynny, rhai ohonyn nhw sydd wedi'u datganoli a rhai ohonyn nhw sydd yn asiantaethau sydd wedi’u cadw yn ôl, fel yr heddlu, er enghraifft. Felly, yr hyn rŷn ni'n ceisio edrych arnyn nhw o ran allbynnau gyda'r gwaith yma yw cydlynu gwell trwy ein cymunedau a thrwy'r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yma yng Nghymru, defnyddio data a thystiolaeth yn fwy effeithiol er mwyn adnabod y risgiau yn gynharach, a sicrhau ein bod ni'n targedu’r ymyriadau yn fwy effeithiol ac yn gynharach.
Wedyn, rŷn ni'n gwybod bod arfer da arbennig yn digwydd mewn rhai mannau. Bydd rhai ohonoch chi wedi clywed am y Cardiff model, er enghraifft, lle edrychwyd ar le oedd yna dorcyfraith o fath arbennig yn digwydd mewn rhai ardaloedd. Ac wedyn fe ofynnwyd, 'Wel, pam? Pam mae yna ddwyn yn digwydd o'r siop yma ar y stryd yma, a ddim o'r siop yma ar y stryd yma? Beth yw'r ffactorau?', gan edrych, wedyn—. Mae'n gallu bod, er enghraifft, yn bethau sy'n ymwneud â golau ar y stryd. Mae'n gallu ymwneud â'r ffaith nad oes camera CCTV gerllaw. Mae'n gallu ymwneud ag i ble mae'r stryd yn arwain. Ydy e’n rhywle mae'r heddlu fel arfer yn ymweld â fe, ac yn y blaen? Mae yna nifer fawr o wahanol ffactorau. Yn yr un modd, diogelwch merched. Mae yna rai llefydd lle mae yna ymosodiadau yn gallu digwydd, er enghraifft, yn benodol ar ferched. Ac rŷn ni angen edrych ar y seilwaith cymunedol, nid yn unig y ddaearyddiaeth a phethau fel golau stryd ac yn y blaen, ond hefyd a ydyn ni'n darparu mynediad diogel at ein gorsafoedd bysiau a thrên, er enghraifft. Felly, meddwl am y cwestiynau yma er mwyn ymyrryd a gwneud penderfyniadau a fyddai yn y pen draw yn gallu atal torcyfraith rhag digwydd. Felly, mae hwnna jyst yn rhywbeth ymarferol. Felly, dyna beth yw nod y peth.
Felly, ar hyn o bryd, o ran eich cwestiwn chi ynglŷn â sut mae'r gwaith yma yn mynd ymlaen, rŷn ni'n gweithio gyda phartneriaid, rŷn ni'n barod wedi cael cyfarfod gyda'r mathau o bobl—academwyr, cynrychiolwyr o'r awdurdodau lleol, cynrychiolwyr o'r gwasanaeth iechyd, cynrychiolwyr o’r heddlu yng Nghymru—i sgwrsio am hyn. Mae yna gefnogaeth fawr iddo fe. Felly, dŷn ni ddim eto wedi—. Dyna le ydyn ni ar hyn o bryd. Felly, allaf i ddim rhoi dyddiadau pendant eto, achos ar hyn o bryd beth rŷn ni'n ei wneud yw penderfynu beth fydd diben, remit a strwythur yr asiantaeth yma. Felly, cyn ein bod ni'n penderfynu hynny—ac rydyn ni'n trafod hynny ar hyn o bryd—mae'r gwaith yn digwydd, a dydyn ni ddim eto wedi dod i gasgliad ynglŷn â hynny.
Yes, of course. The idea behind this is thinking about a new way of looking at crime prevention. We know that crime in a number of different ways—. Although we don't have powers over criminal justice and policing, people in Wales do feel the impact, clearly, of offending and crime. So, what we want to do by working in partnership is look at how Wales can prevent that harm that is experienced by communities, by bringing together evidence and expertise from a number of public sectors.
The focus of this new agency is to ensure that we tackle the causes of crime in the first instance—looking at early intervention, looking at working in stronger, more effective partnership, having that more co-ordinated approach across those services and agencies. Some of those have been devolved and some are agencies that are reserved, such as the police and so on. So, what we are trying to look at in terms of the outputs of this work is better co-ordination and cohesion through our communities and these public services in Wales, using data and evidence more effectively to identify the risks more swiftly and to ensure that we target interventions more effectively and earlier.
We know that there is excellent practice in some areas. Some of you will have heard about the Cardiff model, for example, where they looked at where there was crime of a particular kind happening in specific areas, and then they asked, 'Well, why is that happening? Why are there thefts from this shop on this street and not from that shop on that street? What are the factors?' Well, it could be, for example, things related to street lighting. It could be to do with CCTV being present, or where that street leads and whether it is somewhere the police patrol often. There are many different factors at play. By the same token, women's safety. There are some areas where there are attacks that can happen specifically on women, and we need to look at the community infrastructure, and not just the geography and street lighting and so on, but also whether we provide safe access to bus and train stations, for example. So, it's thinking about those questions to make those interventions and make decisions that would ultimately be able to prevent crime in the first instance. That's a practical response. That's the aim of the project.
So, in terms of your question in terms of how this work is progressing, we are working with partners. We've already had a meeting with certain kinds of people—academics, representatives of the local authorities, representatives of the health service, representatives of the police forces in Wales—to have conversations about this. There is very wide-ranging support for this initiative. So, that's where we are at the moment. I can't give specific dates yet because what we are doing at the moment is deciding what the remit and structure of the agency will be. Before we decide that—and we are discussing that at the moment—that is the work that is being done and we haven't yet reached a conclusion on that.
Diolch. I'm sure we'll want to keep up to date on that as well. Diolch, Gadeirydd.
Thank you, Jayne. Laura Anne Jones.
Diolch, Chair. In regard to community cohesion, I was just wondering about—. I'm interested in the cost of those programmes and how you're measuring success. But also, I think that—and I've banged on an awful lot since being a politician—sport is often very underestimated in terms of, as well as the physical, the mental health benefits of it. It's an enormous leveller and enabler in terms of ensuring community cohesion, actually, and it's something that we don't perhaps use enough. So, how are you working—my question is to you—cross-Government to ensure that you re-emphasise the importance of community cohesion and use what we've already got in place to help with that?
Absolutely agree with you. Absolutely agree with you as regards sport. I think it's something we probably all have seen in our own lives. I know, for instance, my son, when he was playing football and now rugby, would meet people not only from different schools, so he's extending the people and the families he's coming into contact with, but also the types of families he's coming into contact with. I absolutely agree with you that sport plays a crucial point here.
One of the things that this Government really wants to do is work cross-portfolio. I see many, many opportunities within culture and sport to support the social justice agenda, specifically, as you mentioned, on cohesion, but in many other ways, too. I see it, again, as essential—being able to provide children who grow up in poverty with access to those opportunities. We know, very often, when you haven't got a lift to get to that away game, then that can cause you problems, and if you can't afford the kit, et cetera. My Cabinet colleague Heledd Fychan and I are having those conversations, and I would very much want to make sure that sport is something that we address within cohesion.
One of the things that we do within cohesion—I was talking about volunteering in the third sector—is the community facilities programme, and that's really important in this. We provide capital grants to community organisations, to enhance their facilities, of all types, which includes sporting organisations, because we recognise, although sport isn't—. When I was first looking at it, I was thinking, 'Oh, why am I giving money to sports clubs?' I completely understand why I'm giving money to sports clubs, because they are absolutely essential to this agenda. I don't know if, Andrew, you just want to give a little bit of detail around the community facilities programme, because it does come to that broader point on cohesion as well.
Yes. So, the community facilities programme is a rolling capital programme that we've had for a number of years, and it provides capital grants to community groups to bring back buildings into use, improve facilities, but also to extend their use. And a lot of this actually is to do with some of the challenges that community groups face in terms of income generation, because some of these facilities can allow them to generate more income. There's quite a widespread criteria that we have for those facilities programmes, but they are delivered across the whole of Wales in communities. And the one thing that's really obvious from the programmes that we're seeing is that they are able to get match funding from other organisations, including generating their own funds, which shows you the kind of level of commitment that communities have in that programme. We currently have a £10 million programme. It's a rolling programme for facilities, and we publish all the relevant projects on the Government website, as and when they are agreed.
Jest i ddweud ar hwnna, gyda'r gyllideb atodol, fe wnaethon ni roi mwy o arian i mewn i'r rhaglen yma yn y gyllideb atodol yna, achos dŷn ni'n cydnabod gwerth y rhaglen yna o ran yr holl bethau mae'n gallu eu cyrraedd ar draws y portffolio yma.
Just to say on that, with the supplementary budget, we did put greater funding into this programme in that supplementary budget, because we recognise the value of that programme in terms of all the things it can reach across that portfolio.
Thank you. The final topic we'll be going on to is the voluntary sector. Just to check now, would you be able to stay just a couple more minutes?
I do have a really important meeting at 12:00—
We'll be done in time—
—but this is very important too. So, just a couple of minutes, perhaps another five minutes, if that's okay.
That's fine.
Because I need to prepare for that one.
That's okay. Before we go on to the voluntary sector, Jane Dodds.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae hyn yn mynd ar draws y pwnc nesaf, i ddweud y gwir. Yn anffodus, yn ystod y chweched Senedd, roedden ni'n clywed am brofiadau mudiadau oedd yn cefnogi ffoaduriaid, er enghraifft. Dwi jest eisiau siecio a chlywed gennych chi sut ŷch chi wedi ymestyn allan i'r mudiadau a'r sefydliadau yna, er enghraifft, y cyngor sy'n gweithio yma yng Nghymru efo ffoaduriaid—jest i glywed tipyn bach am hynny, dyna'i gyd.
Thank you very much. This touches on the next topic as well, to be honest. Unfortunately, during the sixth Senedd, we heard about the experiences of organisations that support refugees, for example. I just wanted to check and to hear from you how you have reached out to those organisations, for example, the council working here in Wales with refugees—just to hear a little bit about that, that's all.
Rŷn ni, wrth gwrs, yn barhaus—mae'r swyddogion yn barhaus—yn ymgysylltu â'r mudiadau yna, o bob math, sy'n delifro ar ein rhaglenni gwaith. Dwi wedi mynychu, ers dod i'r swydd yma, y fforwm lle mae Cyngor Ffoaduriaid Cymru yn rhan ohono fe, felly dwi wedi clywed yn uniongyrchol ganddyn nhw ynglŷn â'u profiadau nhw yn hynny o beth. Ond, wrth gwrs, rŷn ni, fel Llywodraeth ac fel swyddogion, yn sicrhau ein bod ni'n clywed nôl ganddyn nhw am unrhyw beth sy'n ymyrryd â'u gallu nhw i ddelifro ar yr hyn maen nhw'n ceisio ei wneud i gefnogi ein cymunedau.
We, of course, are continually—officials are continually—in touch with those organisations, of all types, who deliver on our work programmes. I have, since coming into post, attended the forum where the Welsh Refugee Council is a member, so I have heard directly from them about their experiences in that regard. But, of course, as a Government and as officials, we are ensuring that we hear from them about anything that interferes with their ability to deliver with what they're seeking to do to support our communities.
Diolch, Gadeirydd.
Thank you, Chair.
Diolch. Elfed Williams.
Diolch. Weinidog, mae gennyf dri chwestiwn, ond dwi eisiau gwneud ychydig o sylwadau cyn dod i'r cwestiynau. Dwi'n siŵr y byddech chi'n cytuno bod y trydydd sector yn sector bwysig ofnadwy, yn sector broffesiynol sydd yn bwysig i'r maes ataliol. Mae gennyf brofiad dros 20 mlynedd o weithio yn y sector yma. Buaswn i'n licio tynnu sylw at ddarn yn y pecyn, tudalen 17, y voluntary sector—yn anffodus, y copi Saesneg dwi wedi dod â fo i lawr efo fi. Fe wnaf i jest darllen allan y paragraff cyntaf. Mae'r sector yma yn
Thank you. Cabinet Minister, I have three questions, but I want to make a few comments before coming to my questions. I'm sure that you would agree that the third sector is a very important one, a professional sector that is important to the preventative agenda. I have over 20 years of experience of working in this sector. I would like to draw attention to a piece in the evidence pack, page 17, on the voluntary sector—unfortunately, it's the English copy that I brought down with me. I'll just read out the first paragraph. This sector is
'facing pressures from rising cost, demand for services, recruitment and retention of staff and volunteers and uncertainty over funding.'
Mae hynny'n hollol wir. Mae gen i brofiad, fel roeddwn i'n dweud, o 20 mlynedd. Mae dibynnu ar grantiau byr dymor yn broblem arw. Dwi eisiau ffocysu heddiw fwy ar y maes tendro yn y sector yma. Roeddwn yn edrych neithiwr ar y code of practice. Fe wnaf ddarllen allan cwpwl o glipiau o'r code of practice ar yr 'Appropriate funding mechanism'.
That is entirely correct. As I said, I have 20 years of experience of working in this sector. Depending on short-term grants is a very serious problem. I want to focus more today on the matter of tendering in this sector. I was looking last night at the code of practice. I will read out a few clips from the code of practice on the 'Appropriate funding mechanism'.
'Ensure funders consider all options and choose the appropriate mechanism(s) that will effectively deliver agreed outcomes throughout the funding period.'
Buaswn i'n dweud nad yw'r system funding yn ffit i bwrpas fel ag y mae hi ar hyn o bryd. Fe wnaf roi enghreifftiau o'r profiadau sydd gen i yn y maes. Roeddwn i'n rhedeg gwasanaeth eiriolaeth am dros 12 mlynedd. Yn y cyfnod yna, fe es i drwy dri tender process. Doedd yna ddim codiad yn unrhyw un o'r prosesau tendro yna yn yr arian roedden ni'n ei dderbyn. Roedden ni'n gorfod trio—er mwyn codi cyflogau a phethau felly, roedd rhywun yn gorfod edrych ar sut roedd rhywun yn torri costau eraill. Yn y diwedd, roedd wedi cyrraedd y pwynt lle roedd yn andros o anodd i dorri chwaneg o gostau. Mae'r sector yn wynebu hynny bellach, ar ôl 15, 20 mlynedd o ddiffyg ariannu i mewn i'r sector. Mae o'n rhoi'r pŵer, a dweud y gwir, i'r corff neu'r mudiad sydd yn rhedeg y tendr i safio arian. Dydyn nhw ddim yn gorfod codi—. Mae'r code of practice, a dweud y gwir, yn dweud na ddylai hynny ddigwydd, ond ar lawr gwlad mae o yn digwydd.
Y cwestiynau sydd gen i ydy: a fyddech chi fel Gweinidog yn cytuno o bosib i edrych ar fodelau gwahanol o ran sut ŷn ni'n mynd i ariannu'r sector yma? Contractau mwy parhaol. Mae'r system dendr yn iawn i archebu toilet roll neu wella ffyrdd neu beth bynnag, ond dwi ddim yn meddwl ei bod hi'n ffit ar gyfer y sector yma. Allwch chi edrych sut gall y sector, pan fydd yna gontractau, os mai dyna sydd yn mynd i fynd ymlaen, sut bod yna uplift yn digwydd yn flynyddol? Dwi'n gwybod am fudiadau sydd wedi cael dim uplift mewn 10, 15 mlynedd. Ac, er mwyn cael bach yn fwy o olwg i mewn, mae'r sector eiriolaeth yr oeddwn i'n gweithio ynddo wedi bod yn trio cysylltu efo Gweinidog i ddod i mewn i gael sgwrs am sut mae hyn yn amharu arnyn nhw. Fyddech chi'n fodlon cyfarfod efo nhw? Byddai hynny'n rhoi golwg nid yn unig ar y sector yna, ond yn ehangach ar sut mae hyn yn effeithio ar y sector.
I would say that the funding system isn't fit for purpose as it currently stands. I will give examples of experiences that I've had in this area. I was running an advocacy service for over 12 years. In that period, I went through three tender processes. There was no increase in any one of those tender processes in terms of the funding that we received. We always had to try—in order to increase salaries and so on, one had to seek cuts to other costs. In the end, it got to the point where it was very hard to find those further cuts. The sector is facing that situation more broadly now, after 15, 20 years of a lack of funding into the sector. It gives the power, truth be told, to the organisation running the tender to save money. They don't have to increase—. The code of practice says that that shouldn't be happening, but on the ground it is happening.
The questions that I have are: would you as a Cabinet Minister possibly agree to look at alternative models for how we're going to fund this sector? More permanent contracts. The tender system is fine for ordering toilet roll or for road improvements and so on, but I don't think that it's fit for purpose for this particular sector. Will you look at how the sector, when there are contracts, if that is the ongoing situation, how an uplift can be made on an annual basis? I know of organisations that haven't had an uplift in 10, 15 years. And, to provide greater clarity, the advocacy sector that I worked within have tried to contact a Minister for that Minister to come in and discuss how the situation is impacting them. Would you commit to meeting with them? That would give clarity not only on this sector, but also how it's affecting the sector more broadly.
Diolch yn fawr. Mae'r trydydd sector yn rhan gwbl hanfodol o gefnogi'r holl waith rŷn ni wedi ei drafod y bore yma. Byddaf i'n siarad gyda fy nghydweithiwr yn y Cabinet am hyn. Mewn ychydig o wythnosau, fe fyddaf yn mynd â phapur i'r Cabinet yn ymwneud â hyn yn benodol, achos mae'n rhaid i ni ystyried y berthynas i'r dyfodol a fydd rhwng y Llywodraeth a'r trydydd sector, a sut ŷn ni hefyd yn meddwl am wirfoddoli ac yn y blaen. Wrth gwrs, mae hwn yn rhywbeth sydd wedi ei danlinellu gan ein dyletswyddau o fewn Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006. Felly, dwi eisiau rhoi yn glir ar y record fy mod yn cydnabod pa mor hollol hanfodol a phwysig yw'r berthynas yna a'r sector yna i waith y Llywodraeth.
Rwy'n cydnabod, a dwi'n siŵr bod pob un ohonom ni o gwmpas y bwrdd yma yn medru dod ag enghreifftiau o le mae pethau yn galed i'r sector. Un o'r heriau yw'r her gyllidol, a'r her yna o ran gorfod mynd drwy'r broses o fynd am grantiau neu gyllid, sy'n gallu bod yn rhwystr i allu y sefydliad yna i fedru bod yn llwyddiannus ac yn effeithiol. Felly, dwi jest eisiau eich sicrhau fy mod i'n cydnabod ac yn deall hynny. Dwi yn meddwl bod yn rhaid i ni gael gwared ar y rhwystrau, gan y byddai hynny'n galluogi'r sector yma i fod yn un ffyniannus a llwyddiannus, ac mae rhai pethau pwysig yn digwydd yn barod o ran hyn.
Yn y flwyddyn ariannol 2026-27, sef y flwyddyn ariannol bresennol, fel rhan o gytundeb tair blynedd—fel rŷch chi'n dweud, sydd ddim wastad yn rhywbeth mae'r sector yn ei weld—rŷn ni'n rhoi dros £9 miliwn i Third Sector Support Wales i helpu grwpiau lleol i fedru delio â chodi arian ac yn y blaen, a llywodraethiant ac yn y blaen, a phethau maen nhw angen eu gwneud i fod yn llwyddiannus. A hefyd, er mwyn galluogi pobl yn y sector yma a'r sefydliadau yma i ymdopi'n well gyda'r gofynion, efallai o ran llywodraethiant neu dendro, ac yn y blaen, sydd arnyn nhw, mae gennym ni raglen o'r enw Newid, sy'n rhaglen £1.5 miliwn sydd yn bartneriaeth rhwng y WCVA, Cwmpas a ProMo Cymru, sydd yn ceisio rhoi cefnogaeth o ran hyfforddiant, mentora a phethau—beth yw'r gair—gallu digidol, i'w helpu nhw yn ddigidol i geisio gwella'r sgiliau sydd eu hangen ar gyfer y byd rŷn ni ynddo.
Ond dwi'n derbyn y pwynt yn llwyr, fel rwy'n dweud, o ran meddwl am beth allwn ni ei wneud. Mae'r cod ymarfer cyllidol y gwnaethoch chi gyfeirio ato fe yn enghraifft, mewn gwirionedd, o'r dymuniad yna sydd gennym ni i fedru sicrhau bod y gwariant yn fwy effeithiol, yn fwy ystyrlon ac yn haws i gyrraedd ato. Felly, dwi'n ymrwymo—. Bydd angen i ni a byddwn ni yn ymgysylltu â'r sector i glywed ganddyn nhw ac i ddysgu ganddyn nhw am y rhwystrau a'r heriau presennol, fel rŷch chi wedi eu disgrifio, i sicrhau, wrth inni ddylunio a chyflwyno'n polisïau ni, ac unrhyw gyllid neu arian sy'n rhan o'r polisïau a'r rhaglenni yna, ein bod ni'n defnyddio'r dulliau ariannu cywir ar gyfer y sefydliadau yna rŷn ni'n disgwyl bydd yn delifro ar y rhaglenni hynny.
Felly, mae'r pwynt yna'n hollbwysig, ac rwy'n diolch i chi am ei godi fe. Ac os oes gan y pwyllgor yn ehangach unrhyw farn neu unrhyw dystiolaeth y bydden nhw'n hoffi ei rhannu gyda ni ar hynny, wrth inni nawr ddatblygu'r berthynas newydd yma, fel roeddwn i'n sôn, yn drawslywodraethol gyda'r trydydd sector, fe fyddem ni'n ddiolchgar o dderbyn hynny hefyd.
Thank you very much. The third sector is an absolutely essential part of supporting all the work that we've discussed this morning. I will be talking to my colleagues in the Cabinet about this. In a few weeks' time, I will be taking a paper to the Cabinet that deals with this specifically, because we have to consider the future relationship between the Government and the third sector, and also how we think about volunteering and so on. Of course, this is something that is underlined by our responsibilities under the Government of Wales Act 2006. So, I just want to state clearly for the record that I acknowledge how absolutely essential and important that relationship is, and that sector is, to the work of the Government.
I do recognise, and I'm sure that all of us around this table could give examples of where things are tough for the sector. One of the challenges is the funding challenge, and that challenge of having to go through the process of seeking grants or funding, which can be an obstacle to the ability of that organisation to be successful and effective. So, I just want to assure you that I do acknowledge that and understand that. I do think that we have to get rid of those obstacles, as that would enable this sector to be prosperous and successful, and some important things are already happening in terms of this.
In 2026-27, the current financial year, as part of a three-year agreement—which, as you say, is not always something that the sector sees—we are giving over £9 million to Third Sector Support Wales to help local groups, so that they are able to deal with fundraising and so on, and governance and so on, and the things that they need to do in order to be successful. And also, in order to enable people in this sector and these organisations to better cope with the requirements, perhaps in terms of governance or tendering, and so on, which they face, we have a programme called Newid, which is a £1.5 million programme that is a partnership between the WCVA, Cwmpas and ProMo Cymru, which seeks to offer support in terms of training, mentoring and—what's the word I'm reaching for here—digital ability, to assist them in the digital sphere to try to improve the skills that they need for the world that we're living in.
But I fully accept your point, as I say, in terms of thinking about what we can do. The code of practice for funding that you referred to is an example of that desire that we have to be able to ensure that we spend money more effectively, more meaningfully and that it's easier to access. So, I do commit—. We know that there is a need and we will engage with the sector to hear from them and to learn from them about the barriers and challenges they currently face, as you've described, in order to ensure that, as we design and roll out our policies, and any funding or money that's backing those policies and projects, that we use the right financial methods for those organisations that we expect to deliver on those programmes.
So, that point is absolutely vital and I do thank you for raising it. And if the committee more broadly has any views or evidence that they would like to share with us on that, as we develop this new relationship, which as I mentioned, which is cross-Government with the third sector, we would be grateful to receive that also.
Gaf i jest ddod nôl i'r trydydd cwestiwn? Mae'r sector yma wedi bod yn trio cysylltu efo'r Llywodraeth ers dros ddwy flynedd, a heb gael unrhyw sylw, ac maen nhw'n gofyn a fuasai'n bosibl i gyfarfod efo'r Gweinidog, jest i roi ymlaen y ffordd maen nhw'n gweithio a beth maen nhw'n ei weld yw'r trafferthion yn y sector.
May I come back to the third question? This sector has been trying to contact the Government for over two years now and hasn't received any attention. They ask whether it would be possible for them to meet with the Minister, just to put forward the way that they work and what they see are the difficulties in the sector.
Yn amlwg, fel oeddwn i'n dweud, byddaf i'n mynd—. Bydd y Cabinet yn ymrwymo, fel Llywodraeth, cyn bo hir—. Fe fyddwn ni'n cael trafodaeth ar hyn yn yr wythnosau nesaf am yr union reswm hynny. Mae'n rhaid i ni, fel Llywodraeth, ddiffinio ein perthynas ni gyda'r trydydd sector. Wrth gwrs, dwi yn ymgysylltu bob dydd gydag aelodau o'r trydydd sector, a phobl fel y WCVA ac yn y blaen. Felly, fel Gweinidog, dwi'n llwyr ymwybodol ac wedi dweud ar y record fy mod i'n cydnabod pwysigrwydd y sector yma, ac felly fe fyddwn i, gobeithio, yn gwneud yn siŵr bod y berthynas yn un effeithiol. Dwi ddim yn gwybod a oes yna unrhyw beth penodol arall sydd angen ei ychwanegu at yr ymgysylltu yna gyda'r trydydd sector.
Obviously, as I was saying, I will be taking— . The Cabinet will soon be committing, as a Government—. We'll be discussing this over the next few weeks for that exact reason. We, as a Government, need to define our relationship with the third sector. Of course, I do engage every day with members of the third sector, and with organisations such as the WCVA and so on. So, as a Minister, I am fully aware and have stated on the record that I acknowledge the importance of this sector, and so I would hope to make sure that that relationship is an effective one. I don't know if there's anything else specific that needs to be added on engagement with the third sector.
Can I just to add to that? We've currently got the third sector partnership council, which has been established for many years, and that's the main partnership kind of relationship that Government has with the sector, and the sector then feeds into those discussions. That includes concerns about the application of the code, but also wider concerns that the third sector may have. So, that's the infrastructure that we've got in place for those kinds of strategic issues to be raised, and that involves a conversation with the Deputy First Minister, but also conversations with Ministers on portfolio matters.
Thank you. Just a really quick final question before we finish. Sarah Rees.
Quickly on that, I'd just like to know if there's any consideration of the attendance of Ministers and the effectiveness of TSPCs. And maybe it's something you want to come back to in future, Minister, but I'd like to ask whether there's been any assessment of the previous Welsh Government strategy on volunteering, and whether you've considered any link between the increased pressures in terms of the cost of living and the decrease in volunteering. Thank you.
Mae'r rhain yn bethau byw iawn. Dwi'n clywed, wrth gwrs, fod nifer o'r rhaglenni sydd gen i yn fy mhortffolio—. Fel dwi wedi sôn, rydyn ni yn llwyr ddibynnol ar y trydydd sector, ac ar wirfoddoli hefyd, a dwi wedi cydnabod—. Roeddwn i'n siarad yn y gynhadledd Gofod3 yn gynharach eleni ynglŷn â fy ngwerthfawrogiad a fy nealltwriaeth hefyd a fy awydd i i gydweithio yn effeithiol gyda'r trydydd sector a gwirfoddoli yn enwedig. Mae pethau wedi newid, onid ydyn nhw? Rŷn ni wedi gweld llai o bobl am bob mathau o resymau, a dwi'n meddwl ei fod e wedi cyflymu rhywfaint ers COVID, er gwnaethon ni weld lot o wirfoddolwyr yn ystod COVID ac roedd lot ohonom ni, dwi'n siŵr, o gwmpas y bwrdd yma, yn rhedeg grwpiau o wirfoddolwyr. Ac wedyn, yn sydyn, fe wnaeth y byd jest newid eto, ac mae pwysau ar bobl hefyd o ran eu hamser, a chostau byw eto yn dylanwadu ar hyn, dwi'n meddwl. Felly, fe fyddwn ni, fel roeddwn i'n dweud, yn diffinio ein perthynas. O ran y TSPs, fe fyddwn ni'n trafod ein perthynas, a bydd gwirfoddoli yn rhan o hwnna. Dwi ddim yn gwybod, Andrew, os wyt ti eisiau jest ychwanegu at hynny.
These are very live issues. I hear that a number of the programmes that I have in my portfolio—. As I mentioned, we are entirely dependent on the third sector, and on volunteering as well, and I have recognised—. I spoke in the Gofod3 conference earlier this year and shared my appreciation and understanding and my desire to collaborate effectively with the third sector and volunteering in particular. Things have changed, haven't they? We have seen fewer people for all kinds of reasons, and I think it's accelerated since COVID, although we saw a great deal of volunteering during COVID, with many people around this table, I'm sure, running groups of volunteers. But the world changed very swiftly again, and there are pressures on people in terms of their time, and the cost of living again has an influence in this regard, I think. So, we will, as I said, be defining our relationship. In terms of the TSPs, we will be discussing our relationship, and volunteering will be part of that. Andrew, I don't know if you wanted to add to that.
Yes, just to update. The volunteering policy existed in 2015. In the last couple of years, there was a voluntary sector cross-sector leadership group that looked at that volunteering policy. It concluded that it needed to be updated, and so, last year, 'A new approach to volunteering' was published. The conversation we're having now is around what does that look like over this Senedd term, given the Ministers' and the Government's commitments. And as the Deputy First Minister has said, that conversation is happening with Cabinet shortly and with officials. But I just want to put on the record the recognition of that work.
I think you're right; volunteering has changed significantly over those 10 years—very different pressures on volunteers—and therefore the response from Government and the sector needs to change. And that has been a really important part of this work, working with the county voluntary councils, which are actually a really important part of the third sector and volunteering infrastructure in Wales.
Diolch. Okay. That brings this scrutiny session to a close, then. Diolch yn fawr, Deputy First Minister, for your evidence this morning. A transcript of proceedings will be shared with you to check for accuracy. Thank you once again for attending, and for your time.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. A dwi'n edrych ymlaen at glywed ac am rannu yng ngwaith y pwyllgor wrth inni fynd ymlaen. Felly, bydd diddordeb mawr gen i weld eich rhaglen gwaith a'r ymchwiliadau y byddwch chi'n yn eu gwneud, ac yn edrych ymlaen at ymateb i'r rheini. Diolch yn fawr.
Thank you very much. And I do look forward to hearing from you and sharing in the work of the committee as we proceed. So, I'll be very interested to see your work programme and the inquiries you'll be undertaking, and I look forward to responding to them. Thank you.
Diolch yn fawr. Thank you.
Okay. So, we will move on, then, to item 3 on the agenda, which is papers to note. So, hopefully, you will have seen that there are seven papers before the committee today. Are Members content to note the papers? Yes, happy. Thank you.
Cynnig:
bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) a (ix).
Motion:
that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix).
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Moving on to item 4, which is a motion to go into private for the remainder of today's session, I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix), that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content to do that? Yes. Thank you.
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:38.
Motion agreed.
The public part of the meeting ended at 11:38.