Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

The meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual.

And I'd just like to welcome the other committee members here today. Committee members should note any declarations of interest now, or at the relevant point during proceedings.

We move on to new petitions. So 2.1, petition P-06-1554, 'Secure Fair Funding for Charitable Social Care Providers'.

'Anheddau Cyf is a long-established, not-for-profit charity supporting over 140 people with learning disabilities across North Wales. For 35 years, Anheddau has empowered individuals to live independently in shared homes, rooted in community life. Its commitment to high-quality, person-centred care has earned it a glowing rating from Care Inspectorate Wales in February 2025, and the trust of families across the region'.

Could I invite Rhys to discuss the petition and any actions you may wish the committee to take?

Yes, thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. We had a detailed response from the Minister, and the Minister recognises the incredible pressure on the social care sector. The Minister mentioned about the National Office for Care and Support and that they're in the process of looking at research recommendations from last month, and quite a substantial bit of further work is being undertaken on this. Because of the ongoing work—. Obviously, something is happening, things are moving forward, therefore, on that basis, I don't think there's anything that this committee can do at this point. It'll be a matter for the next Senedd to pick up on the responses from the National Office for Care and Support to the recommendations. So, I'd thank the petitioner and close the petition. Diolch.

Thank you, Rhys. And apologies, Rebecca. I should have mentioned that the petitioner's name is Rebecca Bugby, with 1,862 signatures collected for this. So, thank you, Rhys. Yes, social health care is so important, and I believe 55 per cent of Welsh Government funding goes on health and social care, and much of the funding that goes from local authorities goes into social health care as well. So, in light of what Rhys has said, we'll close the petition, but thank the petitioner for raising this important issue. Okay, thank you.

If we move on now to 2.2, petition P-06-1568, 'Return all the M4 to the 70mph speed limit, in Wales. Remove all lower speed limits forced on us'.

'The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY believe the Port Talbot 50mph is not required. This is likewise with the 50mph brought in around Newport. It is stiffling our ability to travel freely and causing unnecessary "snarl ups". The Government is here to serve the people and better their lives. This is a reduced speed limit, that is neither wanted or required. Modern cars are able to travel very safely with far superior braking distances to older cars when 70mph was the standard motorway speed limit.'

This was submitted by Robert Watkins with 3,323 signatures. Could I invite Lindsay to discuss the petition and any actions you wish the committee to take?

Well, thank you, Chair. Can I say that I sometimes sympathise with motorists, as especially when we're all in a hurry, we always want to travel as quickly as we can to our destinations? But nevertheless, I think with this particular petition, although people are very concerned about their travelling times, there must be also, I think, cognisance taken of, in fact, the pollution for the people who live next to the motorways. Port Talbot hasn't had, with the greatest of respect, a very good reputation for air pollution over decades, with the steel industry causing difficulties there. I can fully understand why, perhaps, this speed limit is in place, to reduce nitrogen dioxide, as we're told in our report, to look at the air quality and make sure that the people of Port Talbot and Newport actually do breathe in clear air.

Perhaps in the future, when electric cars, maybe, offer less pollution, with the steelworks becoming electrified now, maybe the pollution in Port Talbot will change and actually improve. I'm sure then that the authorities could revisit that, but, for now, I think possibly the wisest thing to do is to thank the petitioner and say that it doesn't look as though the Welsh Government's policy and rationale will change at any time, and this perhaps may need to be revisited in the future, but close the petition now.

Okay. Thank you, Lindsay. Joel, would you like to come in?

Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to put on record my agreement with the petitioner's petition, really, as someone who travels the M4 quite frequently, around Newport, I always shudder when I'm coming up to Newport because the traffic stalls around the Brynglas tunnels. You're doing 70 mph, then everyone starts hitting the brakes as they come into the 50 mph zone, and how there haven't been more accidents at that particular point, I just don't know.

But the only thing I also want to add, really, especially around Newport, is that we need an M4 relief road. We're the only party that I'm aware of that's committed to building that, so what I would stress to the petitioner is if they want to look at serious policy changes at the next election, they know who they have to vote for. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for your political party broadcast. [Laughter.]

I've noticed that on other roads around Wales there are these 50 mph speed limits, because on the other side of the road, across the fence, there are communities there. For example, in Shotton in Queensferry, there are two schools that are very close to that road, and air pollution is a significant issue, and that's why these have been introduced, as it said in the report, to reduce nitrogen dioxide pollution. I'd like to thank the petitioner. We've got different views, and the report explains why the Welsh Government has introduced this: it's regarding air pollution, really, not just the safety of speeding traffic and residents; it's to do with air pollution as well. And close the petition. Okay, thank you.

That brings us on to 2.3, and, actually, we've got two very similar petitions here. So, P-06-1551 and P-06-1557 both concern reform of dental services. The Cabinet Secretary has provided a single response for both. If I just read them both out, and then we can discuss them together. The first one, 2.3, is petition P-06-1551, 'Stop the Welsh Government’s Harmful Changes to NHS Dentistry'. The petition reads,

'We call on the Welsh Government to halt proposed changes to NHS dental services that will dramatically affect access to care, especially for people with disabilities, those with mental health conditions, and individuals with a fear of dentists.'

This was submitted by Jeff Goodwin, with 571 signatures collected.

And then the other petition is under 2.4, which is petition P-06-1557, 'Introduce guaranteed NHS dental treatment for the population of Wales'. The petition reads,

'Ensure that NHS dental treatment coverage is available for all residents of Wales.

'The Welsh Government should ensure that NHS dental coverage is available throughout Wales, be it provided by an NHS dentist or a service that is bought in from the private sector at the same fee level.'

And that was submitted by Douglas Russell, with 779 signatures collected. Joel, would you like to discuss these two petitions and any actions you think the committee should take?

Thank you, Chair. And yes, with your permission, I would like to discuss the two petitions together. And I need to probably declare some sort of interest to you, because my dentist has now gone private and cited the NHS contract as a reason, really. So, that's an extra bill that—. I can weather that bill, but there are other families within the catchment of my dentist that will struggle to meet that extra bill.

The frustration is that we're coming to the end of the Senedd term, but I definitely think as a Petitions Committee we need to write to the health committee and say, 'This is something that really needs to be looked at', because, from my correspondence with dentists throughout Wales, this is decimating the industry, actually, and I do worry that, in a couple of years' time, you just won't get an NHS dentist.

Okay, anybody else like to comment? Yes, Lindsay.

Yes, thank you, Chair. I totally agree with Joel, actually. This is getting out of hand now. I have been inundated—I'm a new Member here, but I have been inundated—this last few weeks with people in the Caerphilly constituency, and I'm sure many other Members across the whole of Wales are suffering similar numbers of e-mails as myself. People can't afford this extra burden, and that's what it is.

The NHS has always been free at the point of delivery, and, in all of the correspondence I have had, people are more concerned with their children's health than their own and these are good parents who ensure their children have good dental care, and yet they simply cannot afford it.

I don't know how many of us on this committee will be coming back after May, but I know one thing: if I am back, this is something that I will be pursuing with whatever Government is in charge of Wales after May, and it's something that needs a rethink, I believe.

I have a lot of concern with not having NHS provision, but also the variance of private providers. Some will tell you one thing's needed, and another not. I know of one person that was told that he needed four fillings, at a cost of £850, but went somewhere else and then was told he didn't need the fillings, and the cost of going private varies so much that you need to ring round. So, there's no standard of pricing or care offered, which is really worrying as well, so it's about trust as well. So, yes.

But, going forward, we are nearly at the end of our Senedd term, and we'll thank the petitioners—it is a really important issue and I'm sure it will be something that will be picked up by the seventh Senedd—and thank them and close the petitions going forward.

That then brings us to updates to previous petitions. And item 3.1 is petition P-06-1464, bringing back again 'Allow Welsh families who have experienced Baby loss before 24 weeks to obtain baby loss certificate'. This was submitted by Angharad Cousins with 749 signatures. Rhys, would you like to talk about this?

Diolch, Cadeirydd, and, as for many of us, this is an important petition to me, an important matter to me, a matter that I've raised on a number of occasions on the floor of the Senedd and through letters and written questions. It's the sixth time this has been in front of the committee, and we've kept it open because I think, nearly every time we've spoken about it, we've thought we've been very close to having a conclusion, because it's been in place in England since February 2024, and a similar provision has been in place in Scotland since 2023. Now it appears that the bilingual nature of the certificates in Wales is proving a problem. Personally, I can't understand that, but I need to take these things at face value.

The Minister mentioned a report on timeline in the week commencing 2 March, the day of our next committee meeting, so we'll be very unlikely to have anything that day. Hopefully, we might have something for our final committee meeting on 16 March. I am not minded to recommend that we close this petition. We've come so far with it. If we don't get a response on 16 March, I hope that this will be a petition that a successor Senedd petitions committee, or whatever form it might take, would take up and would carry on pushing, because we are so close. We have had a commitment from the Government and I think that, by closing it now, we'll be letting down families who have been in touch with all of us and the petitioner. So, I know we've spoken about it six times, but it's an important topic. And I think Vaughan Gething has mentioned before when we've discussed this that not all parents want this certificate, but for those who have and for those who have been through this trauma and want that official recognition that their child did exist, I think it's important for them that we keep this open. Diolch.

Yes. Thank you, Rhys. It sounds like the Government is committed to doing it, but the bureaucracy of it—it's really hard to get your head around, isn't it?

It's incredible.

They've been advised by the NHS Business Services Authority that the current system was not developed to deliver a bilingual service—but we deliver bilingual services all the time—

Of course. Quite.

—and it must comply with Government digital standards, and it sounds like there needs to be a period of research. Is there consultation on it? I don't know. For us not to understand the bureaucracy, I mean—. For the petitioner it must be really, really difficult as well to get her head around it. But I do want to also keep it open, in a way, so that we can keep pushing right to the end, because I know other Members have been raising questions in the Chamber, but it's something I feel that we've really pushed with and, I don't know, held it as our own. So, yes.

I'd like to second the motion that we keep the petition open. I find the excuse, quite frankly, lamentably weak—

Yes. I don't understand.

—and totally unacceptable. 

Okay, so we'll keep—

And for the record, this isn't a criticism of the Minister, because I've spoken to personally with the Minister and I know how committed she is to it, but something is causing this logjam, and it's certainly not her. So, I want to make that clear, Cadeirydd. 

Yes. Thank you, Rhys. Yes, in fact, she's said to us at times, 'Please do write in again and help support me.'

Yes, quite. We're probably breaching confidentiality saying that, but, yes, the Minister has said that on a number of occasions. 

And that's what we've done. So, okay, we will keep that open. 

Colleagues, before we go into the next one, what I didn't capture on the previous petitions regarding dentistry was—. We were going to close the petition, but can we also just write to the Health and Social Care Committee, which is what was proposed by committee members, but I didn't capture that then, just outlining the petitions to them? Thank you. Okay. Apologies.

Okay, so we've got, again, two petitions that are very similar—so, items 3.2 and 3.3 both address school travel. Item 3.2, P-06-1533, 'Review and update Provisions 2-10 of The Learner Travel Measure (Wales) 2008'. This was submitted by Rebecca Smart, with 2,185 signatures. And then the other petition is P-06-1555, 'To review all guidance on Home to School Transport for all of Wales. Free access to an education.' That was submitted by Tina Collins with 11,790 signatures. And we debated this in the Chamber. We had a really good debate on it. So, we're going to discuss the two together. Could I invite Lindsay to discuss the petitions?

Thank you, Chair. I have great sympathy with all of the petitioners, both Rebecca Smart and Tina Collins—I thank them for organising this petition—one of them collecting quite a significant number of signatures, I see. But this is an issue that's going to affect the whole of Wales for many years to come. As local government suffers financial cutbacks, then local councillors are going to be forced into making these decisions, which affect schoolchildren's literally every day walk or drive to school.

What's going to happen now, I believe, is that we'll have more traffic on the road, more congestion around schools—and heaven knows we've all got enough of those anyway. I really think that this is something that we perhaps will need to look at in the future. I don't quite know what action we can take now as a Petitions Committee. It has been debated, as you say, thoroughly. It's an extremely emotive issue. I speak as a grandfather who is always concerned about his own grandchildren's safety, and I fully understand parents and grandparents throughout Wales being concerned about this. So, I think that all we can do for the moment is to thank the petitioners, and maybe the next Senedd will review this again, I don't know.

I'm sure we will, yes. Transport is always raised as one of the biggest issues amongst young people, isn't it? Whether it's education or post-16 to college and university, getting around, it's such an important issue, but the cost of transport has also risen significantly. I remember being on the Local Government and Housing Committee, and we were taking evidence and they said that the cost of school transport had increased by 40 per cent post COVID. If you haven't got increased funding coming through to local authorities to cover that as well, then it's a big issue. And is it 25 per cent of the education budget is taken up on school transport as well in some authorities? So, again, this is the issue. We need to ensure that public services are properly funded, including this. This is where it comes under. And if they're not, then it means that cuts have to happen somewhere. Okay. So, we had a really good debate in the Chamber on this. I'd like to thank the petitioner. I know she's going to keep going with this.

I fully understand that.

I met her afterwards. It's such an important issue, and although we can't do any more now—we're coming to the end of our term—we've had the debate, we'll have to close this petition, and I look forward to her continuing to work on this, and I'm sure it'll be spoken of a lot in the seventh Senedd. So, thank you.

Moving on to item 3.4, P-06-1550, 'Place the drug Xonvea on to the formulary for the management of nausea and vomiting in pregnancy', this was submitted by Sarah Spooner, with 1,091 signatures. I remember us discussing this initially and reading all the letters from people that had suffered terrible sickness during pregnancy. Joel, would you like to discuss the petition?

Thank you, Chair. Yes, you're quite right—this is a very emotive petition. I well remember some of the examples where people had terminated their pregnancy because they couldn't continue with the issues that they were under. I note from our report that the All Wales Medicines Strategy Group is currently looking into this, and they are quite optimistic that something could be done in the near future. But I know the petitioner has raised some other concerns about that, and with the committee's permission I would like to forward them on to the strategy group and keep this open for the next petitions committee, really, because it's something that really needs to be sorted, because you can't have people going through what these people have gone through.

Anybody have any other views here?

Well, I would agree entirely. I really do hope that this petition is kept open until a suitable response is received. I've never heard such heart-rending stories. This was one of the first petitions I heard when I first joined this committee, and I don't think this drug is expensive at all. And I've spoken with people I know who are medical practitioners, and you can get it in England. There are six health authorities in England, as I recall, who use this drug quite regularly. There is no logical reason why it should not be available here in Wales. It's not silly money at all, and it should be available for women who need this. Women shouldn't have to go through some of the issues that we've heard about—absolutely tragic, I thought, some of the stories. And I hope that this drug, Xonvea, will be available to everybody who needs it, I really do, and it should be. 

Somebody wrote to me regarding a case, and it seems really complicated and messy the way it's delivered, or not, and there's a lack of consistency. And she says that there appears to be a serious gap between hospital-initiated treatment and community prescribing arrangements, leaving vulnerable patients without access to essential medication. But she said that her daughter had an in-patient stay at Ysbyty Gwynedd, and she commenced Xonvea there. It was prescribed on a green community prescription and administered on the ward, but then they were advised by the hospital doctor that although Xonvea could not be dispensed directly from Ysbyty Gwynedd pharmacy, it could be given on the ward if they obtained it from Boots in Llangefni. And then her daughter was discharged with instructions to obtain any further prescriptions from her GP, but then her GP surgery informed her that they could not prescribe it as it's not on the local formulary, as we've heard. They were then advised to return to the early pregnancy gynaecology unit at Ysbyty Gwynedd for a community prescription. The emergency gynaecology unit prescribed a further two weeks of it, which Boots dispensed on that occasion on their behalf. It's really complicated and inconsistent. But now they've been informed that they will not dispense it again due to its non-formulary status. It just doesn't make sense. 

No. 

It doesn't add up, does it. It's total inconsistency. But I'm glad that the all-Wales, the AWMSG—which is the acronym—

Yes, it's quite a—

—are looking at it. I think that, with the petitioner raising it, it got coverage as well, didn't it, on one of the tv channels.

On BBC Wales, yes. 

Yes, and, Lindsay, you spoke on it as well, I believe. 

I did. 

So, there's been lots of coverage on it, and I think we need to carry on with the momentum, don't we.

I think that's spot on, Chair. 

Yes. 

This cannot be allowed to continue. 

No. 

It really can't. It's inhuman. 

Yes. Okay. So, we'll agree to keep the petition open and write again to the AWMSG with the petitioner's additional detailed questions. I could go forward this case as well to them, because it just doesn't seem to make sense. If I could forward that to the clerk to pass on to them, that would be helpful. Thank you.

So, moving on to 3.5, P-06-1553, 'Increase investment and action in nature-based flood management to protect Welsh communities'. This was submitted by Menna Roberts, with 285 signatures. Could I invite Lindsay again to discuss the petition? Would you like to discuss this one, or anybody else?

Which petition, sorry, did you say?

So, this one is about flood prevention—

Oh, right. Sorry, I wasn't aware I was taking this one as well.

—and nature-based solutions. Vaughan was going to lead on it, but with him not being here—

Right, sorry. Okay. Yes, that's no problem at all. 

But, no worries—I don't mind starting off, if you like. 

I think, obviously, the environment is important to all of us. And I think that the climate ambassadors' note has said that we are very strong on environmental legislation, and we have a commitment to future generations, and that is important. Clearly, with parties setting out their position on climate change in election manifestos, this is going to be high on anyone's agenda, really, and I don't think there's much more that we can say other than this is one that will be revisited. With the wettest January and February we have ever seen in Wales, flooding is now almost an everyday occurrence or a worry for many people across the length and breadth of Wales. More work needs to be done on our rivers, more work needs to be done on flood prevention, more work needs to be done on drainage. There's a whole raft of employment out there for people, and who knows how long this will take. In my opinion, I believe it will take a decade to resolve all of the issues that Wales is suffering from with flood prevention at the moment. But, nevertheless, if you don't start now, then when will you start? But, for now, I think that's all we can do is thank the petitioners and look forward to seeing them again in the next Senedd, I guess.

When I arrived by train this morning through Hereford, either side of the railway line was just flooded. The fields were just flooded. They were like lakes everywhere. I was just so relieved that work had been done to protect the line. I know we've discussed this at our Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, and asked the Government questions as to, I think, the small amounts, we thought, proportionately, that are spent on nature-based solutions, which is what the petitioner is highlighting. I think it's 2.5 per cent that is spent on flood alleviation for natural solutions compared to hard infrastructure. I know the Government have got projects such as the seagrass one, which I know Joel is very interested in as the seagrass champion. On peatland restoration, I was talking to somebody at an NRW event where the peatlands have been been restored and retain moisture, but it also stops the spread of wildfires, which we get then in the summer, don't we, when it's really dry, alternatively. There's tree-planting in river catchments, and then the reintroduction of beavers has been announced, hasn't it, as well—lots of things. But I think they would like more to be spent on these solutions, and it's something that we can keep pushing for at the committee.

So, we could highlight the petitioner's comments to the Cabinet Secretary again, and then copy in the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee to the petition, just for awareness. And, as you said, parties will be setting out their positions on climate change resilience and management in their election manifestos. This is something that we said we would add to the legacy document, didn't we, as well—flood alleviation and water pollution. So, if we can do that, thank the petitioners, and close the petition, but we'll keep it as a hot topic. Thank you.

That leads us then on to 3.6, P-06-1565, 'Continue funding Technocamps to provide the support that schools and teachers across Wales rely on'. That was submitted by Beti Williams MBE, with 4,133 signatures. Lindsay again, sorry.

Thank you, Chair. It's 22 years since this Government first started investing in Technocamps and, in that time, 5,000 workshops have been held. I think, obviously, thousands of teachers and pupils have benefited from that service, and at times when Welsh universities are struggling, I think this is a slap in the face for Swansea, to spend £1.4 million in York university. I'm opposed in principle to Welsh public money being spent outside of Wales when a perfectly adequate service has been provided here in Wales. What worries me is that—I read it and I can't quite clarify with the information I've received from Swansea and the information I've seen in this report—15 people have been made redundant now. So, jobs have been lost as a result of this decision, and yet York university say that they are employing two people to do the work of 15. And then I read somewhere that another two have been taken on to handle the issues of the Welsh language. Well, that can't be right, that two people can handle 80 per cent of the work and two people can handle 20 per cent of the work, because of the differences in the languages. So, it's the quality of the provision that I would question that York university are providing. This is a hugely trusted network. I think they've—I did read somewhere, and looked at it—yes, they did a survey of all of the people who have used Technocamps. As I've said, 5,000 workshops held, and 94 per cent of those users said it was essential for their work, and that scares me. It scares me considerably. I don't think we should close this at all. I think that, quite clearly, the Minister is entrenched in her position. I'm not so sure whether there will be a new Minister or not after May, but my guess is that there would be, and I would like this petition to go forward for the next Senedd as well, if we can do that, please, because it's quite clear that Swansea University has been treated rather shabbily, in my opinion.

I wonder if they sought feedback as to why they weren't given the grant at the time.

I believe they have. I believe it was—I didn't bring that particular note with me—said that it was put out to open tender and it wasn't part of the public services. It's in your notes, if I can quickly find it, Chair. It's in your notes in the back there, for the reasoning from the Minister.

Yes, I saw that. Yes. So, it's a dispute, really, between the Welsh Government and the organisation. We've had a response from the Cabinet Secretary, as you said, as to why the grant wasn't given back to Technocamps. So, any other views from committee members?

Thank you, Chair. I note that the petitioner has come back very strongly against this committee, actually, in the work that we've been doing and that we haven't really scrutinised the decision as effectively as we could have, in their opinion. I know they also make reference to the Cabinet Secretary making a number of falsehoods with regard to this, especially in terms of bilingualism, if I remember rightly. So, I don't know if there is scope to actually go back to address that. You know, it's a serious accusation against the Government. I think maybe we should look to cast some light on that.

I think, Chair, the Minister has actually said that the Curriculum for Wales grant support programme is a grant scheme and therefore it's not part of the public procurement exercise. So, it wasn't let under the procurement legislation and therefore not covered by the provisions in the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023. Well, I guess there will be an argument there because of what has happened for the last 22 years, I would suggest, because it can't suddenly just change, surely. And as for the bilingual reasoning, it's beyond my comprehension how two extra members of staff are required for the bilingual, but only two members of staff are covering this legislation in York university, and yet Swansea loses 15 staff posts. There's something clearly wrong, isn't there? And £1.4 million of Welsh money is now going to York university, not Swansea University.

So, as you said, with public procurement, if it was procurement, there would be the social value element maybe weighting towards Wales, if that was part of it, as opposed to going across the border. But it wasn't; it was under grant funding and they weren't successful. We could keep it open, but I'm not sure what else can be gained by keeping it open, or what other questions we can ask of the Government, because the Government has responded and drawn a line under it. So, that's my concern here. So, we could, I don't know—. We could write again, but I don't know what will be gained by writing again to Government. I understand the concerns of the petitioner. So, I think it's something that perhaps can be taken forward again.

I just think it's weird, Chair, that the Welsh Government would bring forward legislation to bring in a local element in terms of procurement and then not really care about it in terms of grants or awards. I think it's another example of virtue signalling, really, from this Government, if I'm honest. I think it worries more about the headlines than, actually, the implementation.

Well, going forward, then, we could write again and ask what the difference is between the grant funding or the procurement. But I still don't think there is much to be gained, at this point, regarding it, and it may be something for a future Government to do. So, I'm minded to close it.

Do we know if this is an annual grant? I don't know. How long is the contract for? I don't know.

I don't know. That's not a detail that I would know. It's—

Yes, I'm not asking you for the—

We are the Petitions Committee, as opposed to—. It's a contract between the Government and whoever they go out to for grant funding.

I believe many teachers throughout Wales are expressing their concern at the loss of this facility. When we're spending £1.4 million, whether it be in York or Swansea, we shouldn't be losing. Why are teachers expressing their concern at the loss of the facility when the money is still being spent? I don't think it's being spent wisely, because I don't think, with the greatest respect to the people in the University of York, they know much about the systems here in Wales and the networking systems that have built up. You can't run 5,000 workshops over 22 years without building up an incredible network of local knowledge that is local to every individual area of Wales. That's where every university in Wales is going to lose out, and, possibly, thousands of teachers and pupils. It's simply not on.

Perhaps you could have a meeting with the Cabinet Secretary, and understand a little bit more of the detail, going forward.

That might be a good idea.

That might help. It might be helpful, then.

And maybe get these two parties together. Perhaps, with respect, the Petitions Committee doesn't need to meet—. Maybe the people in Swansea need to meet with the Minister and find out exactly what is needed. It's good to talk, as they say.

Absolutely, yes. I think that that could be a solution, going forward. Perhaps we could write to the Cabinet Secretary and ask if she would meet with the petitioner, going forward. I know that this has been discussed at the Children, Young People and Education Committee as well in the past. The Chair possibly may have met with Technocamps as well, but I'm not sure. So, we could do that, and then I think we can close the petition. Okay. Thank you.

Thank you.

Right, that brings us to papers to note. Are committee happy to note the papers there, under item 4? Okay.

That brings us to item 5 and concludes the public business. I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay. Thank you.