Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

No apologies have been received today. Are there any declarations of interest? I see none. The meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Please can Members ensure that all mobile devices are switched to silent mode? Senedd Cymru operates through the medium of both the Welsh and English languages. Interpretation is available during today's meeting.

On to item 2, instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2. The Online Safety Act 2023 (Exempt User-to-User and Search Services) (Amendment) Regulations 2026. These regulations update the Online Safety Act 2023 by removing references to provisions of the Learning and Skills Act 2000 that have been repealed and replacing them with references to further education and training now falling under Estyn's remit. Senedd lawyers have identified no reporting points. Do Members have any comments or observations? I see none. Are we happy to agree the report? I see people nodding. Thank you very much. 

Instruments subject to the Senedd annulment procedure. The Social Care Wales (Proceedings before Panels) (Amendment) Regulations 2026. These regulations amend the 2016 procedural regulations to allow Social Care Wales to extend interim orders for up to 18 months without a hearing in specific circumstances, aligning the procedure with forthcoming changes to section 147 of the 2016 Act.  Senedd lawyers have identified no reporting points. Do Members have any comments or observations? I see they have none. Are we happy to agree the report? I see people nodding, so I take that to be a 'yes'.

The Cancellation of Student Loans for Living Costs Liability (Wales) Regulations 2026. These regulations allow up to £1,500 of a full-time undergraduate’s 2026-27 living costs loan to be cancelled after their first repayment is made, provided they meet eligibility requirements and have not previously received such a cancellation. Senedd lawyers have identified no reporting points. Do Members have any comments or observations? I see they have none. Are we happy to agree the report? I see people nodding, so we'll agree the report. 

Instruments subject to no procedure. The Code of Practice on Quality Assurance and Performance Management, Escalating Concerns and Closure of Regulated Care and Support Services (Appointed Day) (Wales) Order 2026. The Order appoints 21 March 2026 as the day on which the 'Code of Practice on Quality Assurance, Performance Management, Escalating Concerns, and Closure of Regulated Care and Support Services' comes into force. In her written statement, the Minister for Children and Social Care explains that the new code of practice will replace the 2009 guidance and aims to ensure consistent care across Wales. Local health boards and NHS trusts will be required to act in accordance with this following the issuing of directions on 4 February this year. Senedd lawyers have identified no reporting points. Do Members have any comments? I see they have none. Are we happy to agree the report? Yes.

Item 3, instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3. The National Health Service (General Medical Services Contracts) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2026. The regulations amend the 2023 National Health Service (General Medical Services Contracts) (Wales) Regulations to correct technical errors and add new definitions to the existing contractual framework. Senedd lawyers have identified five technical reporting points. A Welsh Government response has not yet been received. Firstly, we have Jen from our legal team. Would you like to run us through the reporting points, Jen?

Thank you, Chair. The first reporting point requests an explanation as to why these regulations apply in relation to Wales, whereas the 2023 regulations apply to Wales and to certain contracts. Two further reporting points request explanations as to the meaning of the term 'patient's personal health record', and also whether the use of the word 'will' should in fact be 'must'. There are also two defective drafting points noted in relation to confusion on the use of 'sub-paragraph' and 'paragraph'. 

Thank you, Jen. Have Members got anything to ask or add? No. Are we happy to agree the reporting points? I see that we are. 

Item 3.2, the Education (Student Finance) (Miscellaneous Amendments) (No. 2) (Wales) Regulations 2026. These regulations update student finance rules to extend eligibility to certain Afghan nationals with indefinite leave to enter or remain, and clarify that they must already hold that leave to qualify for support. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical reporting point, and a Welsh Government response has not yet been received. Jen, would you like to run through the reporting point?

Thank you, Chair. The point notes an inconsistency between the Welsh and English texts when describing the location of an amendment.

Thanks, Jen. On to Members, do you have anything to raise? I see that they have not. Are we happy to agree the reporting point? I see that we are.

Item 3.3, the Beavers (Wales) Order 2026, and a written statement by the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs. These regulations update wildlife legislation by reclassifying the Eurasian beaver as a native species and adding it to the list of European protected species. It also removes previous provisions treating the species as no longer present and revokes the 2015 Order that had placed it in that category. In his written statement, the Deputy First Minister recognises the Eurasian beaver as a protected species in Wales. It also establishes a regulated framework for future releases and ongoing management. Senedd lawyers have identified one merits reporting point, and a Welsh Government response is not required. Jen, would you like to take us through the reporting point?

Thank you, Chair. The point simply notes that the Deputy First Minister has issued a written statement, as you've previously referenced.

Thank you, Jen. Are we happy to agree the reporting point? Yes.

Item 3.4, the Marine Licensing (Exempted Activities) (Wales) (Amendment) Order 2026. These regulations update the Marine Licensing (Exempted Activities) (Wales) Order 2011 by revising and adding exemptions to marine activities that do not require a marine licence under the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. Senedd lawyers have identified two technical reporting points, and a Welsh Government response has not yet been received. Jen, would you like to run through the reporting points?

Thank you, Chair. The first point relates to defective drafting regarding the incorrect use of a defined term. The second point seeks further information from the Government to explain the term 'highest astronomical tide'.

Thank you, Jen. On to Members, do you have anything to raise? Are we happy to agree the reporting points? I see that we are.

Item 3.5, the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 (Review of Maps) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2026. These regulations extend the maximum interval for Natural Resources Wales to conduct reviews of maps of registered common land and open country from 15 to 20 years. Senedd lawyers have identified one merits reporting point, and a Welsh Government response is not required. Jen, would you like to run us through the reporting point?

Thank you, Chair. The reporting point simply highlights the Welsh Government's reasons for extending the review period, which is to avoid Natural Resources Wales expending unnecessary time and resources on a review process that's currently awaiting legislative reform to introduce a continual review process.

Thank you very much. Are Members happy? And are we happy to agree the reporting point? Yes. Okay.

Item 3.6, the School Teachers’ Pay and Conditions (Wales) Order​ 2026. These regulations implement the Independent Welsh Pay Review Body’s recommendation to move additional learning needs co-ordinators onto the leadership pay scale, ensuring that uplifted pay applies retrospectively from 1 September 2025. In her written statement, the Cabinet Secretary states that she recognises the importance of moving additional learning needs co-ordinators onto the leadership pay scale as a way of valuing and rewarding their contribution to the education system. Senedd lawyers have identified one merits reporting point, and a Welsh Government response is not required. Jen, would you like to run us through the reporting point?  

Thank you, Chair. The point flags the costs that arise from the effect of this Order and how the Welsh Government proposes to mitigate the impact of this, and it also notes the limited consultation that was carried out in relation to this instrument, which resulted in a mix of positive and negative comments.

Thank you, Jen. Members, do you have anything to raise? I see that you have not. Are you happy to agree the reporting point? I can see people nodding, so I'll take that to be a 'yes'.

The Independent Review of Determinations (Adoption and Fostering) (Wales) Regulations 2026. These regulations update the Independent Review of Determinations (Adoption and Fostering) (Wales) Regulations 2010 to modernise and clarify how the independent review mechanism operates for adopters and foster carers in Wales, streamlining how individuals can request a review of a decision made by a fostering or adoption service. In her written statement, the Minister for Children and Social Care states that she has launched a public consultation on revised codes of practice for Part 6 and special guardianship, reflecting engagement from 2025. The Minister also notes that new regulations on adoption, fostering and kinship care will come into force on 1 April 2026 as part of wider reforms to strengthen services for children and families. Senedd lawyers have identified two technical and two merits reporting points. A Welsh Government response has not yet been received. Jen, would you like to take us through the reporting points?

Thank you. One technical point notes defective drafting regarding an incorrect cross-reference, and another requests further explanation as to what constitutes a qualifying determination. No response is requested in relation to the two merits reporting points, the first of which notes the detail of the consultation carried out for these regulations, and the second notes that the regulations will be subject to an initial post-implementation review within two years, and ongoing annual monitoring and a full review within three to five years.

Thanks, Jen. On to Members, do you have anything to raise? Are we happy to agree the reporting points? I see we are.

Instruments subject to the Senedd approval procedure. The Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act 2022 (Consequential Amendments and Transitory Provision) Regulations 2026. These regulations make amendments to primary and secondary legislation following the implementation of the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act 2022, including transferring funding and local curriculum functions from the Welsh Ministers to the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research, Medr. The written statement by the Minister for Further and Higher Education explains that a small number of consequential amendments to UK legislation are required as the next phase of the Act comes into force in April 2026. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical and two merits reporting points. A Welsh Government response has not yet been received. Jen, can you run us through the reporting points?

Thank you, Chair. The technical reporting point requests a further explanation from the Government regarding the fact that the wording that is amended by these regulations is not yet enforced, and so seeking confirmation as to when it will be brought into force. The first merits points notes that it has not been possible to find a copy of the the Saint David’s Catholic College Incorporation Order 2005, which is amended by these regulations, on legislation.gov.uk or any other legal subscription websites, which raises an issue regarding accessibility of the law, and seeks an explanation for this. And then, in relation to the final merits point, no response is requested as it simply notes that no consultation was carried out for this instrument.

Thanks, Jen. Do Members have anything they wish to raise? I see they have none. Are we happy to agree the reporting points? I see we are. Thank you.
 
On to item 3.9, the Infrastructure Consent (Fees) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2026. These regulations amend the 2025 fee regime to allow Welsh Ministers and specific public authorities to charge fees for applications seeking to change or revoke an existing infrastructure consent Order. They sit within the Infrastructure (Wales) Act 2024 framework, which establishes a unified application and consenting process for certain significant infrastructure projects. Senedd lawyers have identified two merits reporting points. A Welsh Government response is not required. Jen, would you like to run us through the reporting points?

Thank you, Chair. The first merits point notes that the fees relating to an infrastructure consent Order are payable to the Welsh Ministers. The second point notes that the fees are documented on a Welsh Government website rather than on the face of the regulations, which appears to be permissible under the Act, but means that fees can be changed without further Senedd scrutiny or approval.

Thanks, Jen. Members, do you have anything to raise? Are we happy to agree the reporting points? I see we are.
 
Item 3.10, the Road Traffic (Vehicle Emissions) (Fixed Penalty) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2026. These regulations update the 2003 regulations to replace the fixed £20 penalty for leaving a vehicle’s engine running when stationary on a public road, known as stationary idling, with a new flexible range of £75 to £150, allowing each local authority to set its own fixed-penalty point. They also require that any money raised from the penalties is used locally to enforce idling offences and support measures that improve air quality or reduce exposure to transport emissions. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical reporting point. A Welsh Government response has not yet been received. Jen, would you like to run us through the reporting point?

Thank you, Chair. Just to note that a Welsh Government response was received in relation to these regulations this morning. The point that was identified in the report relates to defective drafting due to confusion between what is a paragraph and a subparagraph when identifying the location for an amendment. The Welsh Government's response has noted this and confirmed that a correction will be made using the correction prior to making procedure.

Thanks, Jen. Do Members have anything they wish to raise? I see they have not. Are we happy to agree this reporting point? I see we are.

The Infrastructure Consent (Compensation for Changing or Revoking Infrastructure Consent Orders) (Wales) Regulations 2026. These Regulations set out how and when claims for compensation can be made if an infrastructure consent order is changed or revoked without an application being made. They support the unified process created by the Infrastructure (Wales) Act 2024 for major infrastructure projects. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical and one merits reporting point. A Welsh Government response has not yet been received. Jen, can you take us through the reporting points? 

Thank you, Chair. The technical reporting point notes that terms that have been defined in the infrastructure Act haven’t been defined again in these regulations, which they should be in line with the Legislation (Wales) Act 2019. An inconsistent approach has been taken to definitions in this regard. The merits point simply notes the consultation that’s been carried out in relation to these regulations.

Thank you, Jen. Members, anything to raise? Are we happy to agree the reporting points? I can see we are.

Instruments subject to no procedure. The Building Act 1984 (Amendment of Commencement Order No. 1) and Building Safety Act 2022 (Amendment of Commencement Regulations No. 6) (Wales) Regulations 2026. These regulations correct an error in the Welsh text by replacing placeholder text with the correct coming into force date, ‘1 Gorffennaf 2026’. These regulations address errors identified by the committee in previous reports. Senedd lawyers have identified one merits reporting point. A Welsh Government response is not required. Jen, can you run us through the reporting point?  

Thank you, Chair. It just reflects what you've just said in that the regulations address errors that were identified by the committee.

Are we happy to agree the reporting point? Yes? Thank you.

Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standard Order 21.2 or 21.3, previously considered. The Healthy Eating in Schools (Nutritional Standards and Requirements) (Maintained Primary Schools) (Wales) Regulations 2025. The committee considered this instrument at its meeting on 26 January and laid its report the next day.  Members are invited to note the Welsh Government response to the report, which has since been received. Jen, do you have anything to raise from the Welsh Government response?

Thank you, Chair. The Government has provided the requested explanation, so nothing further to add from me.

Members, do you have anything to raise? I see that you have not. Are we happy to note the Welsh Government response? I see we are.

The Building (Higher-Risk Buildings Procedures) (Wales) Regulations 2025. The committee considered this instrument at its meeting on 26 January and laid its report the next day. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government response to the report, which has since been received. Jen, do you have anything to raise from the Welsh Government response?  

Thank you, Chair. The response notes the points raised by the committee. In the majority of cases, the Government considers that the meaning of the provisions is sufficiently clear, even where the Government notes that there are clear errors. In three instances, the Government has stated that it will consider addressing issues when the regulations are next amended.

Thanks, Jen. Members, anything to raise? I see there are none. Are we happy to note the Welsh Government response? I see we are.

Item 4.3, the Building etc. (Amendment) (No. 2) (Wales) Regulations 2025. The committee considered this instrument at its meeting on 26 January and laid its report the next day. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government response to the report, which has since been received.  Jen, do you have anything to raise from the Welsh Government response?  

Again, the response notes the points raised by the committee. In the majority of cases, the Government considers the meaning of the provisions is clear, even when it is noted that there are clear errors. In three instances, the Government again states that it will consider addressing issues when the regulations are next amended.

Do Members have any comments? I see there are none. Are we happy to note the Welsh Government response? I see we are.

Item 4.4, the Adoption Support Services (Adoption Support Agencies) (Wales) Regulations 2026. The committee considered this instrument at our last meeting and laid its report on the same day. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government response to the report, which has since been received. Jen, do you have anything to raise from the Welsh Government response?  

Just to note that the Welsh Government has provided an explanation where requested and noted that an incorrect indentation has caused issues with definitions, which it is seeking to correct with Westlaw and the statutory instrument registrar.

Thank you, Jen. Members, anything to raise? No. Are we happy to note the Welsh Government response? I take that to be a yes.

Item 4.5, the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Regulations 2026. The committee considered this instrument at its meeting on 2 February and laid its report the same day. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government response to the report, which has since been received. Jen, do you have anything to raise from the Welsh Government response?

Thank you, Chair. The response notes that the cross-referencing issue in the regulations will be addressed using the correction prior to making procedure. The response also provides an explanation regarding the impacts of the regulations, and the Welsh Government has confirmed it will update the explanatory memorandum to explain how the application of the duty has been extended and the policy rationale for doing so.

Thank you very much, Jen. Do Members have anything to raise, or are we happy to note the Welsh Government response?

Item 4.6, the National Health Service (Direct Payments) (Wales) Regulations 2026. The committee considered this instrument at its meeting on 2 February and laid its report the same day. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government response to the report, which has since been received. Jen, do you have anything to raise from the Welsh Government response? 

Simply to note that the Government has confirmed it will address all of the points raised by the committee using the correction prior to making procedure.

Thanks, Jen. Members, anything to raise? I see they have not. Are we happy to note the Welsh Government response? I see we are.

Item 4.7, the Building Safety Act 2022 (Consequential Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2026. The committee considered this instrument at its last meeting and laid its report the same day. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government response to the report, which has since been received. Jen, do you have anything to raise from the Welsh Government response?

Thank you, Chair. The Government acknowledges that the headnote to the regulations is incorrect, but states that it's not an operative provision. A typographical error is also noted, but again, it's not considered an issue. And it's also noted that there is an error in the Welsh text that the Government says would not cause confusion in practice. The Government also confirms that the cross-referencing issue identified is not an error.

Thank you very much. Is there anything that Members wish to raise? I see that there is not. Are we happy to note the Welsh Government response?

The Higher Education (Fee Limits) (Wales) Regulations 2026. The committee considered this instrument at its last meeting and laid its report the same day. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government response to the report, which has since been received. Jen, do you have anything to raise from the Welsh Government response?

The response states that the regulations can be understood without reference to the definitions of 'qualifying persons' and 'qualifying courses'. It goes on to say that these regulations are intended to set out the fee limits themselves, while separate regulations on qualifying courses and qualified persons will determine how those limits are applied. As such, the Government states that the two instruments serve distinct purposes and it wasn't essential for them to be laid simultaneously.

Thanks, Jen. Are we happy to note the Welsh Government response and do Members have anything they wish to raise? I think that we are happy to accept it.

Item 4.9, the Non-Domestic Rating (Amendment of Definition of Domestic Property) (Wales) Order 2026. The committee considered this instrument at our last meeting and laid its report the same day. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government response to the report, which has since been received and is in the supplementary pack. Jen, do you have anything to raise from the Welsh Government response?

Thank you, Chair. The response notes that the approach noted in the committee's report seeking to achieve clarity on when the new provisions will come into force would produce unwieldy legislation. The Welsh Government therefore considers that the approach taken to setting out when these regulations come into force achieves the most accessible result.

Regarding the merit point that was raised in the regulations regarding incorrect cross-references in the explanatory note and explanatory memorandum, the Government has now laid a new explanatory memorandum to rectify the point.

Thanks, Jen. Members, do you have anything to raise? I see you have not. Are we happy to note the Welsh Government response? I see we are.

That takes us to item 5, notifications and correspondence under the inter-institutional relations agreement. We have a number of notifications this week of inter-ministerial group meetings taking place.

Firstly, the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales informs us that a meeting of the Interministerial Group for Transport took place on 5 November. The main topics included road safety, the decarbonisation of heavy goods vehicles and the vehicle emissions trading scheme.

Secondly, the Deputy First Minister's letter notifies us that the Interministerial Standing Committee due to take place on 5 February has been postponed. He will notify us when a new date has been confirmed.

Next, we have a written statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government as well as a letter from the Deputy First Minister in relation to the meeting of the inter-ministerial group for net zero, energy and climate change. The focus of the meeting was on the UK Government's Warm Homes plan.

The Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning attended the Celtic forum in Glasgow to strengthen the collaboration between Celtic nations and regions across areas such as economic co-operation, cultural exchange and renewable innovation.

Next, the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government attended the Inter-Ministerial Group for Housing, Communities and Local Government, which took place on 4 February. The focus of the meeting was on housing strategy development, increasing supply across all tenures and creating sustainable communities.

The Deputy First Minister sets out the key discussions and agreed next steps from the 5 February 2026 Inter-ministerial Group for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs meeting, which discussed funding allocations, UK-wide policy developments and shared concerns, as outlined in his written statement and accompanying letter.

Finally, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language notifies us that the inter-ministerial standing committee for finance will take place on 19 March. Do Members have any comments? I see they have none.

On to item 5.2, correspondence from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on the REACH (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2026. The  Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs informs us of his intention to consent to the UK Government making these regulations, which revise transitional registration deadlines under UK REACH—regulations relating to the registration, evaluation, authorisation and restriction of chemicals—to support the introduction of the new alternative transitional registration model. Do Members have any comments? I see that they have none.

Item 5.3 is correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning on the Interministerial Group on UK-EU relations. The Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning has responded to our letter, confirming that the Welsh Government continues to work closely with the UK Government on negotiations covering issues such as food safety standards, emissions policy and youth mobility. She adds that the upcoming Senedd election period may affect the timing of the negotiations and legislation, and that work to understand Wales's alignment with the European Union is nearly complete. Do Members have any comments? I see they have none.

That takes us on to item 6, papers to note. Written statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government on the recommendation of the Pembrokeshire community review. The Cabinet Secretary provides an updated position following a statement she made in October 2025 regarding a review of community arrangements in Pembrokeshire. She states that, upon further consideration, some of the recommendations made as a result of the review do not fall within its scope. They will therefore not be included in a forthcoming Order to implement the other recommendations resulting from the review. Do Members have any comments? No.

A written statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language: agreement to consult on devolution of powers for a vacant land tax in Wales. The Welsh Government and UK Government have agreed to hold a joint consultation on devolving powers for a vacant land tax. The Welsh Government argues the tax would incentivise timely land development and unlock additional housing, building on existing planning reforms. Do Members have any comments? I see that they don't have any.

We'll move on to the next item, a written statement by the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on the Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Act 2023. The Deputy First Minister provides an update on the Welsh Government's timetable for implementing the second phase of banning single-use plastic products. This phase is intended to cover plastic single-use carrier bags, polystyrene lids for cups and takeaway food containers, and oxo-degradable plastic products. The Deputy First Minister states that due to the outcome of the UK Government's review of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, and the commitment to make common frameworks the key mechanism to agree exclusions under the Act, it is no longer viable to agree and enact an exclusion under the Act in time to implement the remaining phase 2 bans this Senedd term. Do Members have any comments? I can see they have none.

Item 6.4 is correspondence from the Welsh Government: the Welsh Government’s response to the committee's report on the Welsh Government's supplementary legislative consent memorandum, memorandum No. 3, on the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill. The Welsh Government has responded to our report on the supplementary legislative consent memorandum on this Bill. It has accepted the majority of our recommendations, except for one. The response clarifies that only the key amendments judged relevant to devolved matters were assessed at this stage, and that further memoranda will be provided if additional agreed amendments affect Welsh competencies. It also notes that the Senedd's consent applies only to the amendments listed, and that the UK Parliament may still legislate regardless of the Senedd's decision. The Government highlighted that practical impacts in Wales will depend on future decisions about the service model and commencement of specific provisions. Do Members have any comments? I've only got one, that we're looking to agree something before it goes through the House of Commons and the House of Lords, and I think that's a dangerous practice.

I agree. Can I just say I entirely agree with that? I think it's unnecessary as well, given that we have some time available to at least give us a greater opportunity of seeing if there will be further progress, which would give us a better a context within which we can make an informed decision.

Thank you. Anybody else? Mark.

Yes, I endorse—. Is there sound? Yes. I endorse the comments by both yourself and Adam Price. The final item on this agenda—I don't want to jump too far ahead, but it directly relates to this—includes a legal advice note that states that, as of 12 February, memoranda 3 and 4 related to matters that have still not been agreed in the House of Lords. Can I confirm that that is still the case—or whether that is still the case?

You can ask, Mark; I don't know whether anybody else can confirm it or not. I look around the room. Gareth.

I believe that is the case, yes. I will double check, but the House of Lords has been in recess as well last week.

Thank you very much.

Alun.

Can I raise a point? I agree with other Members; I think there's unanimity on this committee on this matter. I have raised this with different people, and the advice that I expect the Government to follow in the Chamber tomorrow is that the timing makes little difference, because there is no substantive amendment left that can make a significant difference to the structure, architecture or nature of the legislation. I would like advice from lawyers as to whether that is the case, because it's not my reading of the situation facing us.

Or mine, Alun, but does any lawyer want to respond? Yes. Thank you.

Sorry about that. I was having trouble with my laptop then. I'm afraid I only heard part of that question, but if you could repeat the question I'm happy to respond. But, apologies, I didn't hear it properly because I was having laptop problems.

Alun.

If it was my question, there were a couple of questions there.

Apologies. Yes, it was.

That's no problem at all. When I've challenged Government on this, the Government line, the Government position, has been that the date of the discussion of the LCM is of little relevance, because the substantive amendments left to be debated in the Lords do not make any significant change to either the structure, the architecture or the nature of the legislation or affect what would be required under an LCM—i.e. the subsequent amendments still to be debated do not affect the clauses for which legislative consent is being sought.

I see. Well, obviously, we're aware that over 1,200 amendments have been laid, but we don't have anything before us formally as to whether or not they have been analysed in detail to confirm or disprove that. So, I'm afraid we haven't been provided the analysis to know if that's correct, that all of the amendments relate to detail rather than the architecture of the Act. The Welsh Government's position in the latest LCM is that it wouldn't have been pragmatic to do a full analysis of the 1,200 amendments.

I've got some sympathy with the Government on that matter. It does seem that these amendments are more procedural issues to slow down progress, rather than to actually improve the legislation. But the LCM, of course, is a technical process by which consent is granted for the UK Parliament to deal with and dispose of matters relating to devolved competences. So, if none of these 1,200 or whatever amendments still to be debated do not affect at all the clauses that have impact on devolved competences, then clearly they would not be included in an LCM and would not be matters that the Senedd would need to debate or discuss.

But I think, without a formal confirmation that the 1,200 have been considered and dismissed on that basis, it's not possible to comment or say whether or not that description of them—that they're detail rather than affecting the architecture of the Act—is correct, because we just haven't been given that. The information is they've only analysed in detail the Bill sponsor's amendments that relate to the small number of clauses that the Welsh Government consider within competence. So, without a more formal position, we couldn't say whether or not the 1,200 amendments are detail or relate to the architecture of the Bill.

Could I just come in there? Because I think it's obviously a very pertinent question that Alun raises, but there are at least a number of amendments that I'm aware of that relate more generally to the question of devolution itself. There are amendments, which I believe are in the name of Lord Thomas, and others, that change the substantive powers proposed under the Bill for Welsh Ministers. Now, those are pretty—. And they relate to these clauses and to other relevant clauses. That's a pretty fundamental change in the architecture of the Act as far as Wales is concerned, is it not? They haven't been debated yet. They've been referred to earlier in general discussions, but they haven't actually, those amendments, been arrived at.

Again, apologies, but my understanding is they at least haven't been formally analysed, and we haven't been given a formal position on them. 

Mark. 

I'll just comment in this context that, at an event I co-hosted in the Senedd a few weeks ago, two of the authors of these amendments, Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson and Baroness Ilora Finlay, endorsed the comments Alun's just made, that a number of these amendments did relate to the impact on the devolution settlement, and they were insistent that a proportion of these amendments were more than procedural and they were substantive in intent and purpose.

The approach that the Government have taken in all of the memorandums really, but particularly memorandums No. 3 and No. 4, is complicated by the fact that it's a private Member's Bill and that the Standing Orders only require a memorandum to be laid if an amendment is tabled by or supported by a member of the Government. So the amendments that have been covered in memorandums No. 3 and No. 4 don't fall into those categories and therefore don't trigger a requirement under the Standing Order that the Government lay memorandums under. So the Welsh Government have elected or chosen to lay memorandums No. 3 and No. 4, and the explanation they give in the memorandum is that they have chosen to focus on amendments laid by the Bill's sponsor that are to clauses that they've previously identified as being within competence. But it means that we are reliant on that almost voluntary approach, and it also is contained or constrained by their original analysis of that only the six clauses identified in LCM No. 1 have regard to devolved matters—so, nothing outside of the narrow basis upon which competence was approached in memorandum No. 1. And then also the narrow basis of only looking at the Bill sponsor's amendments to those, and not all of the other members of the Lords, means that we are looking at a very small selection of amendments in these memorandums.

A simple question from me: is there any reason why this has to be dealt with before it completes its way through the House of Commons and the House of Lords? 

The practical answer—. It’s more of a practical issue I think, in that otherwise we would be voting after legislation had been made. So, the Senedd would be expressing its view after the legislation had been enacted, if it isn't done, potentially. Because we don't have any knowledge or influence over the later timetable, and if it goes back to the Commons and is dealt with very quickly, particularly because of recess, it could be that, if a vote was left later in the Senedd, the legislation would have been enacted.

Is that a problem?

I think it's a serious problem, but I am persuaded that we need to vote on this matter before dissolution. That is clearly the case, given the collision of different timetables with ourselves and Westminster. So, I am persuaded that we need to vote on this before the end of next month. What I'm not persuaded by is the Government argument that we're in a position to take a reasoned approach to this today, or tomorrow, and I'm not persuaded by the Government arguments there. I'm also not persuaded by the Government arguments that they have a reasoned position on the impact on the Bill of amendments yet to be disposed of. I don't think they're in a position to do that, and certainly that's not the position I've adopted. And finally, I'm not persuaded that the Government has properly analysed the impact of the amendments available to be passed by the Lords, essentially, on the devolution settlement. So, I don't know if we're in a position to provide consent tomorrow.

Chair, I was wondering if I, through you, could ask our clerk to provide any advice they are able to share in relation to this, really, the very issue that Alun raises, why—. Because we do have some time available to delay, to some degree, the decision, which would at least avail us of the opportunity to have some further work done ourselves on a more detailed analysis of the interrelationship between the amendments and the clauses, and also there will have been further time in the House of Lords committee stage. There is a provision in Standing Orders that allows any Member to propose a procedural motion to refer a matter back to committee. I'm wondering if the clerks could advise: could that be moved before discussion of the LCM, what's the procedure around that, in order for us to just gain some time to do some further work? We're not losing anything, are we, but we are gaining some time to do some further consideration to see if there is further progress in the committee stage in the House of Lords and to what extent that helps us as well. Maybe, Chair, if you just allow, I think the committee would be interested to hear whether that is a possibility.

I'm sure the committee would.

If I can come in, Chair, thank you. So, under Standing Orders, as Adam has said, there are certain matters that may be proposed in procedural motions, including the referral of a matter to a committee, but that's a matter for the Presiding Officer to determine, and I would want—. And before giving any formal advice, I think it's more appropriate for clerks in the Table Office to give that advice. So, I will happily liaise with them afterwards.

In terms of some of the other points that have been raised, if I may, in their response to the committee's report and recommendation 8, the Government say:

'Consent applies only to the provisions identified in the memoranda before the Senedd.'

So, in relation to memorandum No. 3, it says:

'the Senedd would have consented solely to the amendments included in Memorandum No. 3.

'Any additional amendments having regard to devolved matters would require further memoranda.'

So, I think that means that, if amendments were subsequently agreed, they would require further memoranda.

I think it's also important to say that, as has already been alluded to, given the nature of the Bill, my understanding is that committee proceedings in the House of Lords are scheduled to finish on 26 April, though that could happen earlier, and, of course, that would be in dissolution. These Bills, as far as I'm aware, again, cannot be carried over into a new Parliament. So, there is a possibility, as Claire has said, that the Bill could be passed in Parliament while the Senedd is in recess. So, that would suggest that it would be appropriate for a debate to take place, as Alun has suggested.

Alun.

Is there a procedural means by which a Member or Members may seek leave of the Presiding Office that this debate be postponed to an alternative date, to a later date?

There are provisions in Standing Orders, so that would be Standing Order 12—

Sorry, Gareth. We're testing you here now. I apologise for that.

Standing Orders 12.34 and 12.35, but these relate to a motion—. Sorry, 12.35 is a motion to adjourn an item of business, but that can only be proposed by the Member in charge of the item of business, another Member nominated to the Presiding Officer in advance by the Member in charge of the item of business, or in the case of Government business, a member of the Government. So, I'm not sure whether that would be possible. Again, I would need to seek advice from clerks in the Table Office on that particular point. That would be my initial viewpoint.

Mark.

Could I ask that Gareth be asked to do that?

Yes.

Thank you.

In pure layperson's terms, does the motion currently tabled for tomorrow seek the Senedd's consent to amendments that have not yet been debated or agreed by the Lords, or not?

I will just look at the motion. I believe it does, because, if my recollection is correct, I believe the motion makes reference to clauses 'to be amended'. So, that would suggest that those amendments have not yet been considered by the House of Lords.

And does that include elements of memoranda 3 and 4?

Yes, it would. Yes.

Thank you.

Adam.

I was just going to say that I think it may be useful that Gareth does that work. And I think, possibly, we can return to this in our further discussions later.

I think a general point I would make is that we've heard the proposers of the Bill saying that they would interpret a result tomorrow, even on this more narrowly focused motion, as a general instruction to take Wales out of wider areas of the Bill. So, I think that's a reason, really, to delay a decision on these amendments, and if there is a further LCM, to take it altogether, because there certainly is the likelihood that whatever the decision tomorrow would be applied not just to these clauses, based on what we've heard from the proposers of the Bill, but as a general position. So, I think that's another reason to give us some time and to have that debate in a broader context.

Okay, thank you, Adam. Of course, if I remember rightly, we were able, as a Senedd, to come back after we were in an election period to vote on something in a previous Senedd because of the urgency of it. So, I think that—

No, that's not the case, Mike. We are able to come back in recess, but not after dissolution.

Well, we postpone—. All right, I'll rephrase it. We postpone the dissolution to the last possible day—not the one we've got now—in order to allow us to come back.

Dissolution is determined in law, I think. But I don't think we—. We can come back within Easter recess, but there's only a week of Easter recess before dissolution, isn't there?

Yes. But I think, Alun—I've pointed this out continually on this; I'll just finish on this—we did, before the last Senedd, move dissolution later, as in not four or five weeks, but down to two weeks or so in order to allow us to do certain actions. But that's a matter of fact and one of us is right and one of us is wrong.

So, we move on to the next item, which is item 6.5, the Law Commission's scoping report on agricultural law in Wales. At the request of the Welsh Government, the Law Commission is undertaking a project on agricultural law in Wales. The report in our papers is a summary version of a report it has published at the conclusion of a scoping stage to identify potential issues with the law and possible solutions to those issues. The Law Commission states that

'Agricultural law applicable in Wales is voluminous, fragmented and, in places, difficult to understand.'

It has identified various items of primary and secondary legislation that are suitable for inclusion in a prospective code of Welsh law on agriculture, and proposes that the relevant primary legislation could be consolidated and reformed within four Acts of the Senedd. The Welsh Government is anticipated to provide an interim response to the report within six months, and a full response within 12 months. Do Members have any comments? I see they do not.

Item 6.6 is a written statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language on the review of the Welsh Tax Acts etc. (Power to Modify) Act 2022 and the consultation response report. The Cabinet Secretary's written statement explains that the review of the Welsh Tax Acts etc. (Power to Modify) Act 2022 confirms that primary legislation remains the preferred route for tax changes, but that flexible powers are still needed to respond quickly to external events affecting devolved taxes. He intends to lay regulations to extend the Act’s sunset clause to 30 April 2031, allowing the next Senedd time to determine the most appropriate long-term mechanism for amending devolved tax law. Do Members have any comments they wish to make? If no, we’ll move on.

Item 6.7 is correspondence to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language on the Development of Tourism and Regulation of Visitor Accommodation (Wales) Bill. The committee has written to the Cabinet Secretary noting that, while an interim response to the committee’s report was provided ahead of the general principles debate, the majority of the committee’s recommendations and all conclusions in the report remain unaddressed. The committee emphasises the expectation of a full and timely Welsh Government response. Do Members have any comments? No.

Correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Education on the supplementary legislative consent memorandum, memorandum No. 4, on the Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill. The Cabinet Secretary for Education responds to our letter on the status and scrutiny procedures of all amendments referenced in memorandum No. 4, noting that a further supplementary legislative consent memorandum will incorporate newly tabled Welsh-specific amendments. To ensure the Senedd can scrutinise a more finalised version of the Bill, the consent debate has been rescheduled for 17 March. Do Members have any comments? I see they have none.

Can I move a motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting? Is that agreed? Yes, thank you.