Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

If we move on, papers to note: we've got a few papers to note. Happy to note those papers? Yes, fantastic. Okay.

Lisa Bowkett, chief finance officer.

Ed Williams, director of resources.

Okay. Sam, do you want to come in?

Yes, thanks, Chair, and thanks for that, Llywydd. Essentially, you're making decisions based on—. You're acting on decisions made by Members of the Senedd at the moment and you're having to play out a majority view of what the Senedd wanted to take place, and, in some ways, you're just slaves to democracy in terms of the decisions you're having to make at the moment. I just wonder whether you feel you're getting—. A decision has been made by the Senedd to go through this process of expansion and that sort of thing; that's just the way it is. Do you feel like you're getting the same level of support from Senedd Members when it comes to some of the difficult decisions that are having to be made as a result of that overarching decision for expansion?

I think it's important to just stress again that the Bay 32 accommodation project is not in any way linked to Senedd expansion. We would have had to be finding a new landlord in 2032 whether we were 96, 60 or 36 Members. We have to find new office accommodation for the Senedd, and therefore that's progressing. It happens to happen reasonably with an overlap of time on the expansion of the Senedd, but it's not directly related, other than, of course—and I think you've made this point to me before—that it will accommodate 96 Members. But as we've said—as we know, actually—our current accommodation is able to accommodate 96 Members, so there's no change in that.

In terms of the point of whether we are a slave to democracy, then we are: the Commission is there to fund and provide the resource that the Senedd and the democratic decisions of the Senedd ask it to do, and that's by nature the work of the Commission, but to do that then—and that's the test you give us—in as financially prudent and value-for-money a way as we can as a Commission.

And if I may, Chair, just on that: do you feel that—whether things are related to Senedd expansion or not—Members of this place are providing the support and some of the decision making that best enables you to make decisions in a timely way? 

Well, I think Ed can remind us of how we got to the place where we were able to test the market on the accommodation that we wanted as a Senedd to have post 2032 and whether there were providers out there who could provide us with an offer on that. We did include Members and we did go through quite an extensive process with Members on what they would like office accommodation for themselves and their members of staff to be like, what were red lines for them, and what they were more flexible on. Ed, just to rehearse that process, if that's useful.

Absolutely. Thank you, Llywydd. Just to confirm, we established a Bay 32 Member reference group, which was a cross-party group, and it included ungrouped Members as well, where we undertook extensive workshops around options and user needs. And just to answer the point about the level of engagement, I would say that it was excellent. We had a rich variety of views and it certainly left us with some very clear information to work with about what Members wanted, what their needs were in terms of how they wanted the building to work for them and support them, and that was directly fed in, then, to our detailed set of user requirements against which we went to the market. So, I was very comfortable that we had a good data set in terms of user needs for Members.

I'm conscious of time, Chair. 

We might be able to go into some detail again in private afterwards on some of the more commercially sensitive aspects of the tendering process. So, we'll go through that afterwards.

Before I bring Rhianon in, can you remind us of the—? Within the budgetary process, because, obviously, you lay your budget every year, you suggest that this process, that the tendering process and preferred bidder and that aspect of things, should be done by the autumn. Will that be in time, then, to be able to reflect any costings that would be needed to lay your budget? And then, for subsequent budgets, have you started profiling what that might look like so that the successor committee would know in advance what you'd be potentially asking the Senedd to approve as part of the budgetary process?

'Yes' is my answer to that, but I just need to double check with—. And of course, there's been an allocation of funding that we've required for Bay 32 in this year's budget.

And that has been ring-fenced within that budget as well. 

Ring-fenced within that, in terms of professional advice and pre-development agreement funding. So, that's within the 2026-27 budget already, and then, of course, in presenting the next year's budget, obviously profiling any kind of allocation that's required will be in that budget, yes.

And I'd imagine that that will ramp up over time towards a peak at some point, because we'll possibly need some work doing or something—the winding up of a contract or coming to a new contract. Without straying into some of the commercial sensitivity stuff, just to understand how that would—

I'd say 'not necessarily'. I'm not sighted on it at the moment, but not necessarily. It will depend on the nature of the agreement and the eventual contractor as to what that profiling will look like.

But this committee, or successor committee, will be sighted on that as we go through the process.

Yes. Yes, definitely.

Okay. Thank you very much for that. I'm going to bring Rhianon in, now, with a couple of questions. Diolch, Rhianon.

Diolch, Chair. Moving to budget oversight, do you think that the current procedures and processes regarding the Commission's budget around planning, oversight and approval of the budget—do you think that the current status quo hits the right balance between optimum freedom for the Commission and also accountability, as was touched upon a moment ago, to the public and the Senedd? I don't know who would like to take that first.

Yes, I'll take it first and I'll ask others to contribute. I've only led on one budget for the Commission, and have come into this, in a very direct way, quite late in my time as Chair of the Commission. But I would say, on reflection, and actually looking back on 10 years of Commission budgeting, that the level of scrutiny now seems to me to be at the right balance. But it is quite intense, because our budget is scrutinised, of course, firstly by the commissioners themselves, who have the responsibility within the democratic set-up of this Senedd to present the budget and to scrutinise that budget internally before it's published. So, there's that level of scrutiny. There's the scrutiny that's provided by this committee on behalf of the Senedd, and the eventual scrutiny that's also provided, and has provided challenge as well, within the Senedd itself, in taking a budget and getting a majority for that budget in the Senedd over the years.

I'd say that one additional aspect that I think has been very helpful in providing greater ownership by the whole Senedd and all Members of the budget that the Commission does take through was an area of work that was started by Hefin David as he became Senedd Commissioner. He was very keen to ensure that more Members had an early ability to feed into budget asks within a Commission budget, and have views on some tightening, where some things could change, by involving the political groups. And that was a new venture by him, led by him, and I think has proved fruitful at the different times that groups have wanted to engage in that, and that level of wider consultation at the start of our process, rather than just people ending up with a draft budget laid in the Senedd and suddenly realising, 'Oh, I don't like this particular bit about it, I'm not going to vote for it.' That's the last stage. Members have been involved at a much earlier stage, or given the opportunity to be, and Hefin led on that. And I think that's been an additional part of this work that I hope a new Commission, and lead finance Commissioner, will want to take into the future. 

Thank you. 

Does anybody else—? Yes, Manon. 

Diolch. Thank you. If there is no further comment on that, I will move on. I think you've addressed the committee's statement of principles for DFBs, directly funded budgets, in that response, Manon. So, just briefly then, in terms of how the timing of the laying of your budget by 1 October needs to wait for Welsh Government's supplementary budget, and how that limits the information available and, obviously, around in-year certainty around funding, that has been highlighted. What would you like to see change in the next Senedd regarding the timing of presenting and approving Commission budgets? Who would like to take that first?

Who would like to take it?

I’ll start. I think we mentioned, in the last legacy session we did five years ago, that that is a challenge for us because we have to make estimates well in advance of certain indices being known, of certain comparators being public. We have worked closely with the independent remuneration board, who now are able to give us more accurate forecasts of their needs earlier in the process. That's helped us because there is that element of our budget that isn’t within our control, the expenditure that is directly handed over to Members, and obviously we have to make provision for whatever the independent remuneration board decide in the determination.

The danger of having to put building blocks for the budget together as early as the beginning of the summer recess is that we might end up having to present a lot of supplementary budget changes. I think our more sophisticated methods of forward planning now have minimised that risk. I don't know whether, Lisa, you want to come in on that as well. But I think we are working within those constraints, realising that there is a rationale for the directly funded bodies, particularly the Senedd Commission, going first before the Government's budget is put forward and scrutinised. So, within those constraints, we're trying to make it work as best we can.

Okay. Lisa, briefly, did you want to add anything?

No, not much to add. It is challenging to get it laid before 1 October, just because of the timings, as Manon said, but we've always managed to do it. And with our medium-term planning now as well, we plan for the unknown unknowns as much as we can, noting that if anything comes out that we weren't expecting, that we do have the facility of supplementary budgets to address that.

Okay. Thank you very much. I'll bring Sam in now then. Diolch.

Diolch, Chair. I guess, just briefly, we're all very conscious that, after May, for all sorts of different reasons, there will be a significant number of new Members in this place; two thirds of the Members will probably be brand new to the Senedd. I'm just wondering how you're preparing to support them in understanding your work—or the work of the Commission—and any sort of areas, such as fiscal literacy, that you would want to support them with, and how the experience of existing Members may be utilised to support them with that as well.

I'll leave it to Manon, I think. She will be the one leading that exercise and preparing for it now, obviously.

We've been preparing for a while, and we realise that there is an awful lot of information that we need to convey to new Members. We will have more brand-new Members than usual and, therefore, we have been drawing on our experience, and the experience of my colleagues who have been here through several transitions, to devise a programme that phases the information that is given to new Members. It will start on the day that they come here or to another place to take their oath, and thinking carefully about what information they need at different stages, what they need immediately before they get their passes and so on. And, then, other important information, including information on their fiscal responsibilities and their information governance responsibilities, their employer responsibilities and so on.

We will be drawing on partner organisations to help with that, the standards commissioner and the auditor general. Our aim will be to make sure that each Member knows where to turn for advice. We have created a hub, which will be a one-stop shop, which has now been physically completed on the first floor, and we have teams of colleagues who are preparing now to staff that and make sure that Members are supported throughout that journey of getting used to their onerous new responsibilities.

Thanks, Chair. I'm just going back to this point about the newly elected Members: do you think you're prepared as a Commission, if there's a significant cohort of newly elected Members to this place who simply don't want this place to exist or would want to see structures within this place being significantly different to how they have been since devolution? Do you think you're prepared to manage that? And I've gone back to the point made very much earlier about being slaves to democracy. Ultimately, a democracy will have its way, so you'll have to respond to that. Is that within your thinking at the moment, and how are you prepared to respond to that if that comes up as an issue?

Well, without straying into—

I will have no idea how officials are planning for that scenario. It's probably not a scenario to share with the politician. The politician, of course, and as chair of the Commission currently, would say that there have been Members along the time of this Senedd who've had different views. I remember back—because I was there—in 1999, there were Members elected who, at that point, wanted there not to be an Assembly and were elected in that context. Therefore, we've always had different voices as to where priorities should be and whether there should be priorities at all, and that's the politics of this place. Twenty-seven years later, I'm absolutely confident that this Senedd is now robust enough, in all its various components, to be a Senedd that is there to allow the political voice of the people of Wales to contribute, and whatever that voice is and those various voices are, but that the Senedd itself is robust enough to deal with whatever's thrown at it by the people of Wales or their representatives.

Thanks, Chair. Thank you for that. And then, just on a specific point, just going on to some of the costs that we're looking at for future years, I'm just trying to understand if I'm interpreting some of the numbers correctly in terms of where the Commission budget was in 2024-25, through to where it's indicated to be four years later in 2028-29. So, if we were to strip out costs that were expected as, perhaps, one-off costs or as a result of some of the changes around Senedd expansion, I'm interpreting the budget in 2024-25 was set at around £41.5 million, or the cost of delivering services in this place, £41.5 million, and that's, four years later in 2028, going up to £50.5 million. That's a 20 per cent increase in the budget, once we've stripped out all the things that are either one-off or as a result of Senedd expansion. Am I interpreting that correctly, do you think? Is that a justifiable increase in the spend of this place of a 20 per cent increase over four years, do you think? 

I don't have the figures in front of me to look at the figures you've been quoting, but just in terms of process and how we develop the budgets to date, as you know, we've developed by having discrete budget lines for the growth budgets that we've been undertaking, as Senedd expansion and Senedd reform and Bay 32, and those have been discrete budget lines on top of business as usual. As we move on to the next stage following Senedd reform, they become business as usual. Running the new Senedd of 96 Members, with political staff and with Commission staff, that becomes the business as usual. So, I suspect that part of the comparison you're making there is, as we move from being a Senedd of 60, with work streams that are additional to the business as usual around preparing for Senedd reform to being a Senedd of 96 Members and, it's quite obvious, financial implications. I don't know whether something else can be added to help you with the exact details.

Yes, fine. Sorry, I don't have the exact numbers with me either, but, yes, there will be a point at which our assumptions for Senedd reform will become business as usual. At the moment, there are still a number of decisions to be taken by the seventh Senedd where our budgeting is based on assumptions—so, around the scenarios we were presented with in the RIA. We have to fund pay awards within the budget, and, also, a lot of our non-staff spend is related to contracts, which are subject to annual increases. So, where we've provided forward looks at figures, they're based on reasonable assumptions around pay inflation and non-staff inflation, as well as probably reflecting some of the assumptions around Senedd reform, which are yet to be defined for us.

From what I can understand, Chair, the total budget is going to go from £72 million up to £103 million. But, as I say, stripping out the changes that are on the way, it goes from £41 million up to £50 million—a 20 per cent increase. I have been looking at and comparing with other parliaments. The Scottish Parliament, for example, over the same period, their budget also increased at about 20 per cent across that period, and total public sector cost over that same four-year period at about 17 per cent. So, I guess it's probably fair to say that the Senedd is broadly in line with increases in both other parliaments in the UK and, perhaps, other public sector expenditure, which I think is worth reflecting on as well, Chair.

Okay. Diolch, Sam. I'll bring Mike Hedges in. I know we've gone over the first half hour, but we have an hour in total, so we'll crack on, and I want Mike to be able to have a couple of questions as well. Diolch, Mike.

I'll be very brief. Since the original impact assessment for Senedd reform was calculated, has the impact of advances in technology, improved processes and remote working changed your estimates of these costs?

I'll ask others to contribute in detail to that. Remote working was a feature before we costed the Senedd reform, so I doubt if remote working will have made a significant change since the RIA was developed. An RIA is always based on costings, and the actual spend can be different to an RIA—so, when you come to actual budgeting and then actual spend. So, there are aspects of that that have changed during that time, but, on the whole, the overall budget will have been kept to, but there may well have been changes within that. Some of it, Mike, may relate to some of the issues that you've just referred to there, but, very often, it's because some of the budget estimates we get when we actually go out to tender on some of this work is different to what the costings and the RIA would have foreseen.

I don't know whether you want to say anything around remote working or AI in how the budget for Senedd reform has gone.

I'm happy to say we have a distinct work stream about artificial intelligence and how we're going to use that as a Commission to support the Parliament and to aid more efficient working. That's a live work stream—I couldn't say more. In terms of the estimates for Senedd reform, as the Llywydd said, we are broadly within that original envelope. Project costs have been higher within that envelope than anticipated. A lot of that is down to the inflation that we've experienced—significant inflation—in terms of labour and technology. So, the new technology comes with a cost, because even a basic laptop, for example, is now significantly more expensive than it was a few years ago. So, project costs are higher. The original staffing estimates are lower, but we are broadly within that envelope, and, yes, we continue to—. We have, as I say, a dedicated strand of work around AI and emerging technology as well.

Mike.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. How will the number of additional posts for the Commission plus additional Members and their staff due to Senedd reform impact on the floor space need and use, going forward? 

I'll ask Ed to lead on that. As I said in my earliest answer, we are able to accommodate 96 Members and their political staff and the offices within Tŷ Hywel, in the accommodation space and floor space that we have currently. We will be able to do that within the asks of the accommodation contract that we enter into for long-term accommodation post 2032.

Yes, just to confirm, the Tŷ Hywel 2026 project had a dedicated work stream to plan for accommodating staff, Members, Member support staff and Welsh Government space, contractor space, as a result of Senedd reform. That's been delivered. That project is complete and Members will be able to see evidence of that in the building. And then the Bay 32 project then takes that as the starting point, and the Llywydd alluded to that earlier. That's not within the Senedd reform ring fence, or the Senedd reform project sphere.

And if I can probably link back and circle back to Mike's original question, of course, we have been able to accommodate 96 Members and political staff in our current office accommodation building because of the change, as a result of COVID, to remote and hybrid working. So, the pattern of use of office space has changed significantly in our office accommodation, as it has in all office accommodation, and the requirement for floor space has changed as a result of that. So, that has helped us immensely, I would say, in terms of the public purse and in terms of how we accommodate 96 Members and staff in the floor space that we've always had as a Senedd since those early days of 1999.

Keep up the good work. [Laughter.]

Sam, did you want to come in on this point before Manon answers? 

No, that's fine—[Inaudible.]

Fine, okay. Diolch. 

Sam, did you want to—?

Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to acknowledge, in particular, the Llywydd in picking up these budgeting issues of recent times and acknowledge the leadership that the Llywydd has shown as well. We may disagree on matters and we may provide appropriate scrutiny and challenge, but I just, whilst we're in public session, recognise those difficult circumstances and the leadership you've shown in picking this up. So, thank you from me and, I'm sure, from the committee.

Sorry, Mike. Yes. Sorry. 

Mike, did you want to come in?