Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Diolch. The Football Association of Wales plays a significant role, I'd say, in elevating Wales's presence and reputation globally. Football is the world's most popular sport. If you look at the World Cup in Qatar in 2022, that engaged with around 5 billion people. The women's Euros in 2022 had around 365 million viewers. That was double for the previous tournament, and we're looking for a lot more this year as well—we're expecting record ticket sales and viewership for that.

I think, from our perspective as the Football Association of Wales, it's a responsibility we take very seriously. It sits at the heart of our Ein Cymru/Our Wales strategy, around putting Wales on the world stage, and doing that in a way that portrays Wales as a modern, progressive and confident nation that's underpinned by a clear set of values and our unique culture and language. So, it's something that we take very seriously.

We've got a really exciting few years ahead in light of that strategic planning that we have mapped out. As well as the women qualifying for their first-ever major tournament this summer in the Euros, which we're incredibly excited about, we're also going to be hosting the under-19 men's Euros in north Wales next year, which will enable every single local authority area across north Wales to play a part. We will be hosting the men's Euros in 2028, along with Ireland and the other UK nations, and we're hoping to be able to bid for the UEFA Women's Champions League final in 2029 and the Women's World Cup in 2035, in collaboration with the other UK nations. So, we've got a really exciting schedule of opportunities ahead of us.

Fantastic. Diolch, Helen. Did Abi or Tanni want to come in on this?

Thank you very much. So, you'd probably expect me to say that sport is incredibly important in terms of the international profile of Wales. Over the years, we've had tremendous success of Welsh athletes, either competing for Wales or competing for Great Britain at the Olympics and Paralympics. But the role of Sport Wales is very much about the facilitation of Wales on the world stage. So, we have funding relationships with international partners in developing world-class athletes, particularly in relation to the Commonwealth Games, the Olympics and Paralympics, but this is broadly done through the Welsh national governing body. It probably should be noted that a lot of our relationships are via the Welsh governing bodies, through to either UK or the international governing bodies. But those links are really crucial to what we're trying to do. So, the Sport Wales remit is largely for the development and promotion of sport in Wales, but we do quite a lot of other things, probably more informally, as part of that. So, it's more of a by-product of our remit rather than directly aligned to it, international development.

Diolch, Tanni. Abi.

Thank you. And I want to echo what both my colleagues have said. Actually, I think FAW is a brilliant example of best practice about how you can really elevate sport in an international context, and we're working really closely with our friends in FAW on quite a number of the activities that were being spoken about. Because what we also have is the stadium, which acts as an amazing kind of heart, as an asset in Cardiff, where we can bring lots of international events. So, I just want to echo a lot of what was said.

I think the other thing that we're doing, particularly this year, is working really closely with Welsh Government. We have our summer tour to Japan this year, which coincides with Wales in Japan, which is fantastic, and so we're working really closely with both the UK embassy over there, but also the consul in Wales, to ensure that we're able to support and help in any way we can. I'm going to be part of the team and delegation that is going over there, so that's just a really good example. And then, actually, quickly, it shows how rugby can transcend as well, because that's quickly followed by the British and Irish Lions tour this summer, where we have Wales representation as well. So, just two really good live examples of how sport can work with Government to promote Wales externally. And then we also know that there's going to be a summit in December, which is just shortly after our autumn nations series, and we're working with our colleagues in the Welsh Government to say, 'Who can we support? Are there invites we can put out there? Can we show them what we can do, and the absolutely amazing spectacles we can put on in the stadium?'

Then, I guess, finally, the other thing we do, to just add to comments from colleagues, is that we work really closely with a number of our sponsors who are international in nature, whether that's outward investment from Wales or inward investment to Wales, to support that as well. So, yes, it's kind of at the heart of what we do, the international piece of it, and we're just really pleased and proud to be able to contribute.

Thank you so much. I'll be turning to Lee in a moment, but before we do, Gareth has a supplementary.

Oh, yes. It was just in response to your comments about the Principality Stadium, Abi. 

Hello, Gareth.

Hi. How are you doing?

Lovely to see you again.

Yes, it's good to see you. My question is in terms of sustainability, in terms of preservation of the current ground at the Principality, and making sure that what we've got now and the power and the embodiment of the stadium are preserved. Because, obviously, I'm a Man United fan, and I've seen how, over recent years, stadiums like Old Trafford have gone from UEFA A licences to UEFA B and C, and have actually gone down the pecking order quite quickly if they're not invested in. So, are there any sustainability programmes from the WRU to look at the Principality, not just now, but in terms of the long-term sustainability of the ground?

Thanks, Gareth. It's a really good question. Thank you so much for coming to visit us a couple of weeks ago, and you can't help but just realise what an iconic venue it is. But it's 25 years old now, and you're absolutely right, there's a real danger of it falling behind in terms of what it offers, when you see the most recent example, which is Everton's new stadium. There's lots of coverage around Fulham's new stadium, and then you've got Ajax and the stadiums in Spain, et cetera. So, we're doing two phases, really; one is—. And to agree that we need to absolutely catch up and stay ahead of the game to continue to attract world events.

First is that we are, at the moment, going out for procurement for our new partner in terms of delivering our hospitality and events there. We're hoping to announce that towards September of this year, and we're really looking, both working—. Our current partnership there is one of the bidders, but we're looking for real world-class and best-in-practice examples there, so that's phase one.

Also, now we have the finances of the Welsh Rugby Union in a much better position, we're looking to secure further investment going forward in a much more strategic redevelopment of the stadium, and that really kind of takes it forward over the next 25 years. So, that will be phase two and that will start to come next year, and we'll be working with—[Inaudible.]—to look at that, and I'll really appreciate and value the opportunity to engage people around this table on what the opportunities are there.

And then just a much smaller example on sustainability, really, but really important, is that we're out for procurement at the moment on solar panels for the roof. And that's sustainability in the real, proper sense of the word because, I mean, our energy bills—I mean, it won't surprise you—are absolutely huge and not where we want them to be from a carbon perspective. So, that's another example. But, yes, continuing to invest. Really exciting developments, so watch this space and we'll make sure we keep you updated.

Thank you so much for that comprehensive answer, Abi. If I could remind Members to try and keep the questions to the international strategy, but that was a very useful thing for us to hear, Abi, so thank you so much for that answer.

Thanks. I just wanted to pick up on the point you were making earlier—this is to Abi Tierney—about the opportunities you've flagged to the Welsh Government—and this applies to the others as well: are those taken up? Is the Welsh Government and others receptive to—? You know, are we leveraging sports diplomacy to its maximum or do you think there's more that we can do, and if so, what? Perhaps we can start with Abi and then ask the others.

Yes. So, I think that the relationships are really good with Government on this, and I think it's two-way, so where we see opportunities, we'll bring them in, and then also they will approach us where there are opportunities as well.

I don't think we are maximising it, and that's not a criticism of anybody, I just think there are so many more opportunities. And, particularly, one of the things that Tanni—and we're working with the FAW as well—is that, actually, we've got such a fantastic sporting heritage in Wales with the football, the cricket and the rugby, so it's also the power of the three and how we can work much more closely on that as well. So, I think it is really good and I think we're making opportunities. I think we could move from great tactical opportunities to, even stronger, that soft power side of it and much more strategic, and we'd really welcome that.

Before we go to any of the other witnesses, I think Mick wants to come in.

How do you evaluate the success of it, though? What are the examples you might be able to give of showing that this is something that has definitely changed as a result of that relationship and that strategy?

I don't know if—. I feel like I'm hogging this; I don't know whether Helen or Tanni want to come in on that and then I can give a couple of examples, but maybe Tanni or Helen would like to come in first.

Apologies, I missed the first part of the question, but, if possible, I just want to pick up on what Abi said about the connection between WRU, FAW, Glamorgan Cricket, and, very happily, Sport Wales sits in on those discussions, where we meet fairly regularly to talk about these things. I think that's incredibly important to use the power of the big sports because they will also have an influence on the smaller sports in Wales.

In terms of the role of Sport Wales, our remit is not directly for international work, however, we have lots of soft connections, which I think are really important, as well as the hard connections. So, with my role as chair of Sport Wales, I sit on UK Sport, and it's about having conversations there about international events. So, we have very regular conversations with Welsh Government about international sporting events, but UK Sport has funding to bid for some of these events as well, and it's really important that we bring as many of those to Wales as possible, bearing in mind, you know, there are the other home countries as well.

In terms of the soft connections, I sit on the newly formed soft power council, which is Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport and the Foreign Office. For the second meeting—very happy—they came to Wales; they came to the Principality and the Wales Millennium Centre because they felt that was important. I think, probably a little bit of frustration I feel is having to keep reminding Westminster that devolution is a thing. That's kind of my job to do that. But I do think there are probably more opportunities for us to have some of those harder links.

Sorry, just picking up as well, Brian Davies, my chief executive officer, he was able to attend the Paris Olympics last year on a programme, so that's making connections with international bodies that we wouldn't normally connect with because of our role in Wales. So, being able to sit down with the Canadian team and the Australian team and the New Zealand team to talk about our vision, to talk about the well-being of future generations, and those kinds of links are really important in terms of politically, with a small 'p', putting Wales on the map, because a lot of those conversations would normally be UK, not Wales.

Diolch, Tanni, and just before we come to Helen, if you wanted to reiterate your question as well, Mick.

It was really just how we evaluate. I understand that, obviously, your responsibility isn't the economic opportunities and so on that arise from such a global strategy, but it's really how we evaluate whether we're actually making any success in this area, because I was at one of the meetings with the soft power council, the one in Wales, which I thought was very well represented, but there's a danger of being just swallowed within a larger UK global strategy. I suppose my question is how we actually evaluate what successes we are achieving and whether, I suppose, we are doing what we can to assert that specific Welsh identity. I have some questions on this later on that I particularly want to ask, but it's something that's concerned me, arising from that last meeting.

Abi.

I'll go, and then maybe Helen will come in. I do think that, as you say, it's the job of officials, I think, to measure the impact of the international strategy. One of the things we do is look at the economic impact of the stadium and what that brings. And if you imagine the events that we have, I was doing some research recently, and the UEFA finals in 2017—just an example where a large majority of the people coming were from outside Wales—it generated £45 million for the local economy. That is really, really significant, and that's going into local businesses. And as part of that, most of our major events—and we have some really big ones, not just sport, this summer, whether that's Oasis or whoever—can bring £30 million to £50 million to the local economy for every event. And all of those events, we have lists of international people who are there, who we are making connections with, who are seeing Wales's culture and identity and everything that is unique about Wales, and really feeling that. It's something that I love about my job. So, that just gives you some big examples there, but it is very much—. I know that, as part of Wales and Japan year, that we're very actively engaged in those specific measures, looking at what that's going to bring in terms of inward investment into Wales, but that won't be on us to measure that. Our job is to do our best to contribute to it.

Yes. So, to answer Mick's question, we work very closely with the Welsh Government. We have regular meetings, for example, in relation to the Women’s Euros this summer, in relation to the Euros in 2028, and more generally as well. But I do feel that what's lacking at the moment is that higher level strategy that maps out all of the opportunities in the longer term and looks at how those can be built upon, rather than moving from one tournament or one fixture to the next.

In Laura McAllister, we've got one of the most senior governance positions in world sport, as a Welsh women sitting there. So, there are lots of opportunities that that brings as well, as she's often meeting world leaders, from the political world, from the corporate world, and the sporting world. So, there are lots of opportunities there, and I feel that, while a lot of opportunities are being taken, there's a lot that are potentially being missed, because the structures that we have in place at the moment don’t enable us to fully capitalise on those. We’ve called previously, and we continue to call for culture and sport to be a full Cabinet position.

We’d also like to see senior leadership within the civil service around sports diplomacy, with that resource behind that as well, so there’s that real expertise there that can take the opportunities and potential of sport across all Government departments, so that it’s not kind of restricted to sport, or the economy or the international departments. We’ve got real opportunity, for instance, with the women’s Euros this summer to tackle a lot of the negative discourse that there is in society at the moment around women and gender equality. So, there are elements of that with the education department and the equality department that, maybe, aren’t being considered at the moment in terms of sport. So, I think that, while we are gaining a lot at the moment from it, there’s a lot more that could be gained, with the right infrastructure and the right resource.

In answer to you, Mick, UEFA and FIFA do carry out a lot of evaluation and monitoring around all the tournaments. So, we’re currently looking to bid to host the UEFA Women’s Champions League final in Cardiff in 2029. We’re hoping to do that in collaboration with the WRU and use the stadium. And when I was looking at the evaluation of last year’s final in Bilbao, that brought an 18-times return on investment to the city of Bilbao. So, these are huge opportunities for Wales that are relatively low cost, providing the expertise and resource is there to make the most of them.

Just on your point about the practical things you think we might recommend, I take your point that it would be better if there were more people and there was more cross-Government working on this. Taken as a given that there aren’t more people for the moment, what more can we be doing within similar resource? Your point about forward planning, horizon scanning future events, rather than moving from event to event, was very interesting. Are there other things like that you think that could be done relatively easily?

Yes, I think it is that horizon scanning. It’s looking at what is coming up in the future, both what we will be hosting here in Wales and what we are likely, or potentially going to be qualifying for abroad. The women’s Euros this summer is a good example. I’m not convinced that that was really kind of factored into the Government’s thinking until the point of qualification, whereas I know that people from other organisations, broadcasters, were already talking about the potential of a summer of women’s sport for Wales this year, with the women’s rugby, the women’s Euros and the golf as well. So, that was already being factored into their planning two years ago, whereas it felt like the Welsh Government machine kind of kicked into action once qualification has happened, which has then limited the ability of other organisations to really make the most of it, I’d say.

Okay. Is that just a lack of alacrity amongst the people involved, do you think? What’s the barrier there?

I do think there’s a distinct lack of resource, which I know can’t be addressed immediately. But I think that it is about that, and that sports diplomacy expertise as well of seeing the potential opportunities that there are beyond the immediate sporting or tournament opportunities. I think, as well, there’s a lot that goes on with sporting events and sporting tournaments that isn’t necessarily on the pitch. I know, for instance, with the Berlin Euros last year, I attended a conference around sustainability in sport, focusing on environmental sustainability, and there were stakeholders from around the world in sustainability. That would have been a fantastic opportunity to really showcase what we’re doing here in Wales and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and it’s about capitalising on those opportunities as well.

Thank you. And you mentioned—just briefly from me—the Euros. I’m just conscious that there are some things specifically mentioned in the last strategy that were meant to happen. So, you’ve mentioned that—feel free to add—but, with the WRU, it was mentioned that the Rugby World Cup tournaments were intended to enhance Wales-Japan relations. I’m just wondering if you feel that the most was made of that.

[Inaudible.]

Sorry, Abi, you are muted currently. If you could just—

Yes, could we unmute Abi, please? 

Sorry. Thank you. It was always going to happen once. [Laughter.]

Yes, I think we were kind of adopted in Japan in the 2019 world cup, and built some really strong relationships at not just a sport level but, as Helen was describing, almost at that local community level as well. As a result, when we go back there this summer, we've actually received some investment from the Government over there to do community activation when we're out there, which will give us a real opportunity to promote Wales, promote the brand and be part of that whole Wales in Japan year and working really closely with the consul as well as the UK ambassador on that.

What I think is really interesting is how that stood the test of time over a six-year period. Because it was before my time, I'm not sure on the actual financial numbers and whether there were specific investments and partnerships that were built as a result of that. But I certainly look at the trade missions that are happening this year as part of Wales in Japan, and a lot of those seem to have been as a result of relationships that were built and have continued to be built over this period. We had the Japanese ambassador visit the stadium earlier this year as part of that work as well. So, it does feel like there is real opportunity, building on 2019, and taking it into the tour this year. 

Diolch, Abi. I'm going to bring Alun in on a supplementary and then, after Alun's supplementary, I'm going to go to Heledd because I think her questions might make more sense straight after these, and then I'll come back to Alun for his further questions. But, I'll go to Alun first for his supplementary. 

Yes, it's to develop a point about the relationship with the Welsh Government that I really want to press you a little further on. Tanni, you will, with Sport Wales, have a relationship with the Government, which is about the sponsoring department and which is about accountability and the rest of it. We understand that here. But I'd like to press you a little further, if I could, on the relationship that you have with the Government around some of the forward planning matters that we've been discussing. When you're talking with the Government, do you have conversations about the international strategy, about teams that are touring overseas and overseas teams that are touring in Wales? Do you have that richer conversation about how both organisations can work together in order to develop the forward-looking programme that we were discussing earlier?

Yes, but within the remit of what we're able to do as Sport Wales. So, I'd say that the relationship and the discussions are really helpful. We have quite regular conversations both with direct officials and the Minister, but also I talk regularly to the events team in terms of what they're bidding for. I would love for us and for Sport Wales to get more involved in international strategy, but that's currently not within our remit. So, we've got to be really careful that we don't overstep in terms of what we do. But, what I'd like to see in the next iteration of the Welsh Government's strategy is more focus on sport. I think that others have said that there's not a huge mention of sport. I think it's a really powerful thing to be able to use, and I think that we can do more, absolutely.

Okay. Tell me what more you can do. 

So, what more could we do?

You said, 'We can do more', and I said, 'Tell me what'.

Yes. So, I think it would be helpful if it's in the strategy. I don't want the remit letter to be rewritten, but I think that there are better conversations that we can have with the UK. I think that we're trying very hard to make sure that Wales is not forgotten as part of that, in terms of what they're bidding for, because UK Sport's mission is to bring events to the UK, not necessarily to Wales. So, we have to make sure that that's not forgotten as part of that. I don't want to see all of the international events come to the UK and just sit in England, because I think that there's a lot that we can do. We've started those conversations between the governing bodies. I think that what Helen was saying about that master plan of events is really important, and I think that there's definitely more that we can do on getting Welsh people, or enabling them, to stand for office. So, Professor Laura McAllister being on UEFA, that was done through Wales, which is amazing, but, again, the wider UK slightly forget or don't talk to her. So, again, UK Sport has a remit to get British people onto international governing bodies. We need to think a bit more about how—. That would require funding and it would require a different strategy to get more Welsh people onto international federations. And I think that would be very helpful. It's not easy; it's complicated and it will require funding, but I think that would give us a better focus. As the UK, they don't utilise Professor McAllister's experience anywhere near as much as they should do.

And, Abi, the team is travelling to Japan next month, and you mentioned some work that you've outlined whilst you're out in Japan. Have you discussed the tour with the Welsh Government, and has the Welsh Government contributed to that? And do you set clear objectives for what you're seeking to achieve whilst you're in Japan?

Yes, we've had a number of conversations more broadly on Wales and Japan year and how we can contribute our part in that, of which the tour was one. And so, yes, those conversations have been really productive. There's a whole programme, including, obviously, Japan coming back and playing in the autumn nations series as well. So, there have been a number of really critical touch points this year that we've been able to work with the Welsh Government and agree. So, we had the ambassador to Japan visiting the stadium; we've had the UK ambassador to Japan being one of our guests. And when we do that, we also make sure that we're building a really good relationship—it's been a long-standing relationship and has strengthened even more. Sony UK, which is based in Wales, we've been having conversations with them. There have been lots of different things that have come out of the conversation, but, yes, it's very much a collaborative one. And I think, to reiterate everything that Tanni and Helen are saying about, 'Could we do more?', absolutely, and I think, if there were more resources, that would be fantastic. But I think we're doing well with what we've got, and it's been a really good year for Wales and Japan all coming together in a way that really works. So, it's definitely collaborative with clear goals and outcomes there.

The development of the strategy predates my time at FAW, so I wasn't part of that myself. I have spoken to a few colleagues who say that some discussions took place, but, potentially, they could have played a greater role in the development of that strategy. I think that we do work very closely with the Welsh Government around activities that are part of that strategy and the action plan around it. But I would like to see, going forward with the development of future strategies, really clear, structured collaboration with national governing bodies and other partners, stakeholders within the sporting world, to really make sure that sports diplomacy is at the heart of it, with that kind of planned, structured approach that would enable the Government then to be more agile and fleet of foot and respond to opportunities.

Forgive me, if I may, there has been an updated plan for the next 12 months. Were you able to help shape those at all, because there's been a focus on sports diplomacy, specifically on that?

We are not convinced or aware that we were formally part of a consultation process around it, but, that said, the elements that are relevant to us, we have collaborated with the Welsh Government on. 

Yes, and I'll give a very similar answer to Helen, which is that the original strategy predated my time, Heledd. We have not been formally consulted, but we're aware and have contributed through our conversations to the action 6 and the sport diplomacy side of it.

I was just reflecting then when Helen was talking, and particularly also the story about Laura McAllister and what she represents. And actually, Tanni, you do an amazing job, I have to say, as a diplomat for sport and for Wales globally in your role as well. I do think we could make a lot more of when we are all out and we go out and we work hard on these international opportunities.

It's just struck me that I think we could all see about how we could be sport diplomats in a more intentional way. I think we do it because we're passionate about it, as opposed to maybe being as intentional as we could be about it and as structured as we could be about it. So, that's certainly something that I will take away and have more of a think about.

Are you not surprised that you haven't formally been part of developing this, considering the FAW and WRU and the partnership working that is taking place? Would you not have expected—or anticipated in future—that you would have a more proactive role?

I would certainly like to see these key national governing bodies like the FAW and the WRU playing a more proactive role in shaping those strategies going forward, and as I said previously, I would like to see a specific sports diplomacy strategy as well within that, rather than just a section of the strategy.

We do have very regular meetings with the Welsh Government on a number of different issues, but I would really like to see a more formal structure put in place where the Welsh Government and national governing bodies could come together more regularly to forward plan, to map out the opportunities that are coming up, so that we can understand the Government's strategic objectives in relation to those opportunities, and they can understand ours so that we can develop that collaborative, strategic approach that will maximise the opportunities.

Thank you. I'm aware that I haven't brought Tanni in yet. What was your involvement in terms of the forward-looking 12-month plan?

Thank you. Could I just start by saying that, with events, there's quite a few different layers to it? If it's hosting an event, it's hosting an event well. If it's competing at an event, it can be not necessarily winning, but being those inspirational moments. And then there's diplomacy and legacy that come out of that. At Sport Wales, we're conscious of all those things. We've had quite a lot of discussion with the Welsh Government and partners to utilise certainly the two significant women's sporting events in 2025 to magnify the importance and encourage the growth of women's sport.

But there are also other events next year: Welsh Fire, Tour of Britain, Netball World Youth Cup. There are lots of things going on. We've been involved in discussions around the Women's Euro 2025, have a place on the steering group established by the Welsh Government. Actually, the FAW as the funded partner is probably best placed for some of these activities, but we're part of the working group. I'd say with the Women's golf open, our role is still developing as part of that, but we have directed specific funding to Wales Golf to enhance women's golf facilities in Wales as part of that legacy work. So, that's the lots of different layers that are available to us. I'm pretty happy with the conversations that we've had. 

I think we fed into it, yes.

I think there's a lot that could be gained domestically from investment in sport. There are obvious societal benefits in terms of things like public health, physical health and mental health. Sport does a lot to improve those, but also in terms of things like tackling racism, tackling gender inequality and other inequalities.

I know that the Government at the moment is looking at behaviour in schools. Sport can play a huge role in supporting in those kinds of things. Again, in order to be able to capitalise on those things, a strategic approach needs to be taken. Sport, whether it's football or rugby, is emotionally embedded in pretty much every household across Wales, and it's something that people feel. People trust their sporting clubs and their communities, and the way that we can influence through sport is much more sustained than other types of influences.

The Welsh Government does work with us, and, I know, with the WRU and others as well too, to develop those campaigns and policies around things like toxic masculinity, around healthy eating, around tackling gender-based violence. But, again, I think that those tend to be on a kind of as-they-come-up basis, as opposed to taking that longer term, strategic view around it and working with us more collaboratively to develop those campaigns and opportunities.

Diolch.

Diolch, Helen. I've got two requests for supplementaries, so I'll go to Mick first, and then I'll go to Gareth, because then we'll lead into Gareth's questions. Just to remind Members, we've got around 17 minutes left of this session. I'll go to Mick first.

Just following on, Tanni, from your involvement in the Soft Power Council, I made the comment earlier about how I was quite impressed with the breadth of Welsh representatives across the board, from sport to culture to media to digital and so on. Do we have any equivalent like that within Wales? Should we have an equivalent? Because just perhaps to reiterate the comment I made, my one feeling was that, of course, there is a broader spectrum of engagement, but the real danger of Wales being swallowed within a much larger structure, and that we needed something that specifically maintained the Welsh identity. Do you feel that there should be a Welsh equivalent that specifically draws together all those Welsh elements, and would that be a benefit?

Probably quite a short answer is yes, I think it would be a benefit, without adding lots of layers of committee. Who sits on it is really important, but probably a slightly more formal set of conversations around how we can use Wales as a soft power. A lot of those things happen informally and with a different degree of regularity. One thing that's been useful sitting around the table at the Soft Power Council is, actually, there are lots of people who have worked in sport, who are now doing other things, and those connections are quite helpful. I think that in the next iteration of the strategy, that might be something worth looking at, but it's got to be useful. It can't just be something that's another talking shop. It's actually got to help deliver the Welsh Government strategy, but I'd be really interested in talking about it.

Diolch. We'll go to Gareth. Just to remind Members we're into our final quarter of an hour. We're keen to be able to cover two areas if we can.

Thanks, Chair. I just wanted to pick up on the subject raised around diplomacy. Where do you draw the line with diplomacy and the need to win? Because our goal, whatever sport it is, whether it's football, rugby, cricket, whatever it is, men's or women's, is to win at all costs and whatever that takes. Where do you draw the line at diplomacy? Can that overintensification of diplomacy lead to complacency in the long run, and to forgetting the goal that we're trying to actually achieve here, in terms of promoting our credentials as a winning nation, if you like?

I know it's quite an existential question, in a way. If I could ask for answers to not be too long on this, because there are some other areas we want to cover. But I realise that it’s quite a big question.

Sport Wales has changed its vision for sport in Wales, so we don’t demand medal counts; that is a by-product of having a really good system. If you get the system right, the medals will come. But actually, the public also connect to amazing moments, not just gold medals or winning a match. They connect to the underdog, or hearts on the sleeve. There are all sorts of complications. Winning helps, definitely, but it’s not everything. I think it’s competing with integrity that is really important, as well, which I think Wales is known for. The medal table is the ultimate soft power, but I think in Wales, we do more than that, because it’s also about how we have a fit and healthy nation. But that could be a very long answer.

From my perspective, I would say that it's the job of the players on the pitch, Rhian Wilkinson this summer, as their manager, and the structures that we put in place around that in the FAW to make sure that we have a high-performance environment, which, again, is another key pillar of our strategy.

Our main aim is to succeed on the pitch and to win matches, to qualify for major tournaments, and to do well once we get to those major tournaments, and a huge amount of our work is focused on that. I would argue that it's then the job of the Government and other stakeholders around that, with the support of us in the FAW and other sporting bodies as well, to do the sport diplomacy side.

I would like to see delegations from the Welsh Government going out to sporting tournaments and making the most of the relationships and diplomatic activities that can happen around those tournaments, but I don't think that we can rely on Government Ministers to score the goals on the pitch for us.

But you've also got to beat those people you're having diplomacy with; you've got to beat them as well. You talk about Wenger and Ferguson, for example—they hated each other. Wenger and Mourinho hated each other. But sometimes that rivalry and going post to post with people will get us where we need to be.

I don't think there's a conflict. My previous role had an international slant to it. I've had some of the best conversations since I've taken on this job, because you're united by a common passion, and the conversations you can have while cheering on, even if you're cheering on different teams, the quality of those I think is amazing. So, I don't think there's a conflict. I think, in some ways, it can actually spur it on, because you've got this common shared passion for something that is beyond what's on paper or in policy. So, I think you can make them work together. That doesn't lead to complacency—in fact, it makes you want to win more.

Were there any other questions you wanted to ask, Gareth?

Yes. I just wanted to go on to what your view is on pooled resources in terms of the international activity and whether that collaborative approach that we've spoken about can actually present itself in financial and collaborative terms, in terms of getting thoughts, ideas, budgets and finances together across the board.

Helen, do you want to go first?

Yes. I think what has worked really well in the way that the Welsh Government has approached sporting opportunities is bringing people together under that 'team Cymru' banner and enabling us to take Wales to the world, showcasing our uniqueness in terms of our culture, our language, as well as the sport and aiming to win on the pitch. We've got that happening this summer with the women's Euros. We've got a workshop this afternoon, actually, of all the different organisations working together. So, while we will be developing a number of programmes using the Welsh Government's funding, we're also working really closely with the other organisations who will be in receipt of that funding to make sure that we can pool those resources and come together, doing things like having football festivals across all of Wales, events in communities across all of Wales, sending out packs to schools, so that it can become part of the curriculum for kids this summer so that they can feel inspired. But, again, you won't be surprised to hear me saying that I would like to see the Government putting more resource into that. We were disappointed with the level of funding that was allocated to this summer's Euros, and I think that to really be able to get the most out of these opportunities there does need to be more resource behind it.

What do you specifically seek from the Government then in terms of resources and support, funding, et cetera?  

Well, in terms of this summer's Euros, there is the partner support fund, which was open to any organisations who wanted to run activities around the Euros in line with a set of specific objectives. That was similar to what happened in Qatar in 2022—a lot of cultural events. We would have liked to have seen equal funding for this year's Euros as was allocated in 2022 for the world cup. While I recognise they're very different tournaments, women's football is obviously one of the biggest growing sports in the world and presents huge opportunities. So, we would have liked to have seen that.  

I'm so sorry, because of time we're going to have to move on. I'm going to just going to ask Abi and Tanni if they'd like to come in on this briefly and then we'll move on to the final set of questions. No, neither of you wanted to come in.

I think—

Oh, Abi did. 

One of the areas that we often are grappling with across cricket, football and ourselves is, when we do bid for some of the big events, we have seen, understandably, that the Welsh Government budget in that space has had to be reduced, alongside other things. And so when we're competing against some cities where the Government has the ability to back the bids and make it more competitive because of the £45 million, £50 million, whatever economic benefit, plus the chance to put it on an international stage et cetera—. So, that's very tactical, but that's quite hard for us at the moment, because we're struggling to compete with other cities in those bids.

Thank you. Can I ask the witnesses: would you be free to stay with us for an extra five minutes, until 10:35? Would that—? Okay. Abi.  

I won't be able to, just because I've got a taxi picking me up at 10:30, Delyth. But I will—[Inaudible.]

No, that's understandable. 

If there are any for me, if they could be done before 10:30, I'd be really grateful. Thank you. 

Okay. No problem. 

May I ask one quick question, Chair?

Very quickly, then, please.  

Would you be able to clarify, Helen, just how much of a discrepancy there was between the funding for the Euros and Qatar? Is it half the funding?

I think it's near enough half the funding. 

If you'd like, you could write to us with the—. 

I'll write to you. But I think it was around £1.8 million for Qatar, and I think around £1 million for this summer's Euros. 

Diolch.  

Mick, if there were any questions you wanted to ask.

Most of the points have been answered. There were just two points that emerge. One is whether you feel that there are any really good examples in terms of other countries—perhaps equivalent countries to Wales, but not necessarily—that we could actually learn from, where some of the things that we want to achieve are actually being done, so, best practice that we could look at.

I suppose Tanni—

So, when we talk—. I'll go first.

Whoever, but—. 

No, that's fine. When I think about equivalent countries to Wales, and you think about the brand side of it and how that is used as such a heart of the nation and for sports diplomacy, I would look to New Zealand and the All Blacks from a rugby perspective. I think they have been able to capture the essence of what it is to be New Zealand and all of the heritage that comes with that. Then when you look at how they promote that and leverage it both across men's and women's sport I think it's fantastic, and in their sevens as well as in their fifteens et cetera. So, I think, as a small nation, they punch way above their weight in that. I recognise their winning track record really helps do that as well, so we have to step up and do that too, but that would be one I would point to.

Anyone else want to come in? Helen.

Yes. There was the report from 2020 by Gavin Price and Dr Stuart Murray, 'Towards a Welsh sports diplomacy strategy', I think it was called. That had a number of really good case studies in there of other countries that do this well. New Zealand is the obvious example, especially in terms of its size and population. Australia and France were also referenced in that report. I anecdotally as well understand that Ireland do a very good job in terms of using those networks around sporting tournaments to really benefit their economy, inward investment, and the export market as well.

Mick, over to you.

I don't know if Tanni wants to—

Tanni, was there anything? You wanted to come in.

I was just going to say that this is where the Commonwealth Games is really important to us in Wales. I slightly envy New Zealand, because they only ever compete as New Zealand. A lot of our most talented athletes in a lot of sports will compete for Wales, but also GB. So, I think it's how we—. Team Wales are doing a great job, but it's how you utilise the success to encourage others and to do more. But, yes, I feel slightly envious of New Zealand, because of the brand they have.

Can I just follow on, one further thing? We've, inevitably, focused on the big sports, and the economics of that are absolutely clear, but we have quite a large number of very successful smaller sporting organisations. The one that comes to mind is the world cheerleading championships. The Team Wales Adaptive Abilities team won the gold medal, I think, again—world champions in America, particularly in an area where—. What they say in their press release is, 'challenging outdated perceptions of what disability looks like in sport', and they're ambassadors for inclusivity and so on. Do we really make enough of some of these smaller—? Do they not just sort of get bypassed a bit, and we should be focusing more in terms of the opportunities that arise from some of these successes, Welsh successes?

I think, at Sport Wales, we recognise success in lots of different ways. The big sports will get more media coverage. In terms of a sport like cheer, it's only very recently gone through the governance process and been accepted as a national governing body. I think sports like that can do an amazing amount to change perceptions, especially because a big focus for us is about women and girls and about how they can get involved. You look at a cheer competition, and it is absolutely incredible in terms of the athleticism and the fitness and what's required to do it. So, I think, yes, as Sport Wales, we get it, but there are also multiple layers in terms of media and broadcast and where it's seen and who can see it and what the coverage is and how people are able to access that. I think it's changed. There are certainly more sports that are available and it's easier to watch, but it's not always easy to watch those and make those connections.

Okay.

Diolch, okay. I realise that Abi's going to have to leave at any moment, so can I ask you, Abi, quickly, is there a role that you would like us in particular in the Senedd to be playing in terms of scrutinising any future Welsh Government's international relations policy? I'll just go to Abi firstly, because she'll have to leave on the dot at half past.

It was interesting, reading and doing the prep leading into this—and I'm going to steal Helen's thunder here—and I think moving from the opportunistic and tactical, which is great, into that really structured, 'Okay, let's get a plan.' We know a lot of what's coming. We know then we can also fill that in with opportunities. I think pushing all—not just the Government, but us—to have that joint plan, because I think we're probably being a bit fragmented in how we approach it at the moment, and we could make the sum much greater if we worked in that strategic way. So, that would be my challenge: to scrutinise from that perspective.

Thank you, Abi. I know you have to leave, so thank you very much for your evidence this morning.

Thank you.

Thank you so much. And I promise that we're not going to keep the witnesses longer than this final question. So, I'll go to Tanni and then to Helen. So, Tanni.

Oh, sorry. I—.

Sorry, so the same question, so if there's a particular role that you'd like to see in the Senedd in terms of scrutinising the future Government's international—.

Probably not directly that. I would really value—and this session has been quite important for me—a further conversation about how we can leverage sport in a different way. And I think that would be very useful. I think we do lots anyway, but it's probably a bit too ad hoc, and I think if we can look at that in the next kind of period of time and come back, it'd be really useful to have the oversight to see what are the next steps. It comes back to that I don't think there's been enough discussion, content, on sport. This 12-month strategy is a step up, but, actually, I think we could just do more.

Yes. Obviously, I agree with everything that's gone before. I was going to make the point as well, as Abi did, around the importance of moving from more of a tactical, moving from tournament or fixture to the next, to tracking that activity over a period and mapping it out, going forward, into the long term: with things like the fact that we've got the under-19s Euros in north Wales next year, we've got the Tour de France coming to Wales in 2027, we've got the Euros in 2028, and other events going around, how can we come together to collaborate on all of that.

The other element that I think is really important in terms of scrutiny as well is looking at how sports diplomacy and the power of sport is being embedded across all Government departments, and not being restricted to those obvious departments, but how is it being embedded in health, education, equalities, environment, and how is it being used to its fullest potential.

As I mentioned at the start of this meeting, I wish to address the heartbreaking news we received on Monday that Claire O'Shea passed away after a very brave and public battle with cancer. The way Claire raised awareness and campaigned for change with such courage and strength during the most difficult of times is an inspiration to us all. Despite her incurable gynaecological cancer diagnosis, Claire was still committed to her work as head of Hub Cymru Africa and co-chair of the Wales Overseas Agencies Group.

Claire was due to be on this panel today, giving evidence on the Welsh Government's international strategy. I have no doubt she would have done so articulately, with passion and with purpose. She was respected and she made always valuable contributions to inform this committee's work, for which we are extremely grateful. We will ensure that the written evidence she provided to this inquiry informs our final report and our future work, because Claire envisioned a future where Wales fully realises its potential as a globally responsible nation. She worked tirelessly to make Wales and the world better. Many of us will wish to do all we can to keep her legacy alive.

But the loss we are feeling is nothing in comparison to that which those closest to her are now experiencing. And on behalf of members of the committee and the committee staff, I want to express our heartfelt condolences to Claire's family and friends and everyone who loved her. I would now like to invite you all to stand for a moment in a sign of reflection, as we reflect upon the loss of Claire. 

Hi, thank you. I'm Sarah Rees, I'm head of Oxfam Cymru and co-chair of the Wales Overseas Agencies Group. I wanted to begin by remembering my co-chair, colleague and friend, Claire O'Shea.

Many people have called Claire brave, but Claire was angry. She was angry for herself and for all those people who face injustice locally and globally. She expertly channelled that impatience for change into her work as a campaigner, and her passion for global solidarity never diminished, even as her own health deteriorated. I was sending an e-mail to Claire on Monday morning as we got the news, because she was working right up to her final days. I'm fortunate enough not to have much experience of the sucker punch and the anguish of grief that hit us on the news of Claire's passing, but this grief is something that's experienced daily, hourly, by people in Gaza. We cannot discuss global solidarity without framing it with the urgent need to work across political parties and stand in solidarity for an end to the current siege in Gaza, where avoidable famine is happening here in front of our very eyes. Thank you.

Thank you. Chair. Derek Walker, Future Generations Commissioner for Wales. I also just wanted to say something with respect to Claire. Claire, in 2022, was listed as one of the 100 change makers in Wales in delivering the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, for campaigning on global solidarity and social justice. She worked closely with our team in many areas and taught us a lot through her leadership about the need for partnerships with global majority countries rather than traditional aid relationships as a way of securing climate change, social justice and tackling poverty. She'll be hugely missed by our team.

Thank you so much, Derek, for that. And Najma.

Hi, my name's Najma. I'm the international programme co-ordinator at the office of the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales.

You're very welcome as well. You're all very welcome to come in. Gareth.

I just wanted to pay my own tribute to Claire O'Shea, because I was a member of the Health and Social Care Committee during the gynaecological cancer inquiry. The evidence that was given directly from Claire and others was some of the most poignant and meaningful evidence that, probably in the time of this Senedd, has ever been heard. They were very personal. They were very relatable to the general public. That evidence and the legacy that Claire gave will live with myself personally forever. I won't forget, because there were fundamental flaws within our health systems, and tackling the early signs of gynaecological cancer—that could have been avoided if some of those right provisions were in place. So, yes, it was poignant, and that evidence will live with me forever.

Thank you, Gareth.

Thank you so much.

Could I ask what your relationship is, please, with either the delivery of or supporting the international strategy and what your view on its efficacy has been? Derek, if you want to go first.

Okay, thank you very much, and thank you for inviting us to give evidence to you today. One of the things that I recognised clearly when coming into this role is how our work on the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and on sustainable development is a real soft superpower for Wales. There is much more interest in it globally than I'd anticipated coming into the job. As you can see from the strategy documents from Welsh Government and the action plans, it is a real tool for helping us to deliver on our international objectives.

When I came into the role, I sought to shift some of the direction of the work that we do. We run a programme for Welsh Government to deliver on its international strategy, and we've put, since I've come in, much more focus on developing and strengthening the learning between public bodies themselves and counterparts in other countries. We need to focus very much on delivery, and there is good practice and experience in other countries that we can learn from in order to deliver on our ambitions on the well-being of future generations Act, as well as sharing our good practice. This is harder to do, but my view is that that does need to be an increasing focus of the programme that we deliver.

We have thoughts, clearly, on how the strategy could be strengthened, which perhaps I'll come on to later in the evidence, but, certainly, where we can see in terms of our delivery, and where we have information about other parts of the strategy, we see that the strategy is delivering on its three objectives. Perhaps I can turn to Najma, who leads our relationship with Welsh Government in delivering the programme, and can talk to the relationship we have with the team.

Thank you. Najma.

Thank you. Generally, we've got a positive relationship with the Welsh Government, the international team and the strategy as well. Like Derek was saying, we mainly work on raising Wales's profile and promoting Wales as a globally responsible nation, in line with the future generations Act. We've had this strategic partnership with Welsh Government now for the last five years, and, like Derek was explaining, in the last two or so years since he's come in, we've really shifted the focus of our programme, with less international profile raising and more on what we can do to help Welsh public bodies deliver on the strategy and the well-being of future generations Act as well.

Thank you. On a practical point, Najma, can I ask you: could you move the microphone towards you a little? Because what you're saying is so important, I want to make sure that we capture everything.

Is that better?

That's wonderful. Thank you so much. We did hear you, but just make sure that we'll hear you even better for the rest of the session. Thank you so much. Sarah, was there anything you wanted to come in with on this?

Yes, just a mention on the Wales Overseas Agency Group. WOAG is an alliance of international development organisations that are committed to supporting Wales in becoming a globally responsible nation. We have a number of relationships with the international strategy. Many of our members contribute to Welsh Government advisory groups, Senedd cross-party groups, on a range of issues from human rights, gender equality, racial justice, climate change. There's a lot of work happening. And whilst the ambition of the strategy is acknowledged, WOAG does want to note that the implementation has been hampered by funding cuts, with 23 per cent budget cuts within Welsh Government—that was 2023, and the same again this year—but also externally across our organisations.

That financial strain is really difficult. Since we provided our written evidence in December, for example, the Catholic Agency for Overseas Development, Christian Aid, Oxfam GB and Save the Children have all gone through restructure processes. That's four of the five non-governmental organisations who currently sit within the Disasters Emergency Committee group, for example. The fifth, the Red Cross, have already completed a restructure and have now gone down to—. They only have staff who are working on bringing in extra funding and no-one working on policy and advocacy. I think that's been really noticed just between December and now, in those few months. 

We've seen the slashing of the United States Agency for International Development, and the shock of the UK aid budget cuts down to 0.3 per cent. The amount that people are able to give because the cost of living is making that more difficult, the increased cost of national insurance contributions—. This has been a perfect storm for charities, whether they're charities based in Wales or international non-governmental organisations, and what's most difficult is that's the time when we've been mostly needed locally and globally.

And just separate to that, while that's made things really hard, it doesn't make it any less wonderful to work in this sector—the way that people have rallied and gathered this week, given the news that we've had about Claire, making sure that we represent what Claire's work has been, as much as anyone else, has been fantastic. These are passionate and brilliant people. 

But I think it's really important that we share the responsibility and understanding of what global responsibility entails. Everyone who's involved in delivering the international strategy, including external people, need to be aware that we have to implement the values that underpin this goal. It isn't about tokenistic things, it isn't about taking nice photos and then turning around and saying you want to scrap exactly the same piece of work. It's about making sure that everything that we do, the actions that we take here in Wales, don't harm the planet or people anywhere and that they have positive impacts where possible.

And Sarah, I can imagine what your answer to this might be, but in terms of that aim of a globally responsible Wales, do you think that that aim has been achieved?

I think that the work within the programme has been fantastic. Taith is a great example. Will Hayward recently gave a shout out to that on the podcast that he does, and how a small but deliberately tailored scheme can really, really work and benefit Wales, in terms of enriching young people and raising our profile in the world.

I think we need to make much more use of the media channels that we have within Government to celebrate the many wins that we've got within this project, and not be afraid or pander to populist agendas because there's so much fantastic work. Just this morning I was texting one of the women who came with Size of Wales that was celebrating the Mbale project. They came to celebrate the fact that 25,000 trees have been planted. The positive impact that that has had has been fantastic. The carbon that's been sequestered through that programme is unbelievable, and to put it into context, it's the equivalent to the outputs from cars for 2022 in Wales. So that really is making a difference and it's quantifying it.

But when they came to visit, the lovely two women who came from the Mbale project, they met with schools. We had children who were saying, ‘Whoa, so when that letter came that said a tree was planted in my name, these are the people who grew those trees? And these are making a difference across the world.’ And other things. At the same time, they run a gender empowerment programme as part of that project, and Deborah said when she came, and it was an event that was organised by Claire, that despite being just over four foot tall—she's this small but powerful woman, and she has five children, one of whom was really young when she came to visit; it was the first time that she'd left him—she said that she'd been empowered to raise her voice in her community. And this morning when she texted to send her condolences about Claire and say that she'll be planting a tree in Claire's name, she also said that she has been elected to her local women's council, which is part of the representation of the village in the Government. And that's really inspired lots of people here, who were then going on and sharing their own political journeys. And there's that cross mentoring that's happening, being inspired from people in Mbale to people here in Wales, so that is trickling right back here into our Senedd.

That's very powerful, thank you so much. Derek, what would your take be on this? Because obviously this is a key tenet of the future generations Act. To what extent do you think that this aim has been achieved, and how would you measure how much it's been achieved? 

I think it's a process. I think it is being worked towards through the delivery of the international strategy. How we measure success is very simply through the 50 national indicators. This is how we assess whether we're making a difference across the seven well-being goals, and you don't look at any one of the indicators in isolation, you look at them across the piece.

Being a globally responsible Wales is, when we're taking action here to improve well-being in terms of economy, society, culture, environment, that we don't do that in a way that causes damage to other countries. So, you look at that in terms of what we do on renewable energy, you look at that in terms of what we do in waste strategy, what we do on volunteering, as well as on our global footprint and our global greenhouse gas emissions. So, there is a basket of measures that I look to to assess our performance and you will have seen, just a couple of weeks ago, that I put out the future generations report, which is my assessment of progress against not just the globally responsible Wales, but against the ambitions of the legislation more generally. You can see from that that you can point to some very good progress that wouldn't have happened without the legislation, but there's certainly lots more to do in areas where we're not on target to meet long-term trends. 

Thank you so much, and then finally from me—. I should have said at the start that Lee Waters has sent apologies for this session, which is why you're hearing quite so much from me at once; forgive me. There are 270 actions that are listed in the strategy and in its action plans that are meant to be delivered between 2020 and 2025. We'd be interested to know what your understanding is of how many of them have been delivered, and this isn't a test exactly, but what would your sense be in terms of all of those different actions of where you think the Government is at with that? 

Shall I come in first? I don't personally have an overview of the delivery against all 270 actions, and I think that on some of the actions, we perhaps don't have sufficient measures in place, I would suspect, and in other areas, I think they are quite difficult to measure. So, in terms of how we're increasing Wales's—. How we're seen as a globally responsible nation, that can be quite a difficult thing to measure, or it might be something that's so expensive to measure that it wouldn't justify the cost. But, certainly, in the areas where we work, we seek to evaluate and measure our outcomes and our outputs where possible, and report those to Welsh Government. And I think over the last five years, before my time and during it, we have personally met the actions that we've committed to delivering on. But in terms of an overview of all 270, I don't have that level of information.

Diolch. Sarah.

I think we've looked at around 15 priorities in the strategy that specifically refer to global responsibility, and I've mentioned already the project in Mbale, the work on gender equality. There's been work that Hub Cymru Africa have done on safeguarding. The project that Size of Wales have been doing for ethical citizenship, work on fair trade, wider work that's been happening within Dolen Cymru, for example, and how they've been having conversations on shifting power to ensure that they've got a chair of Dolen Cymru who is from Lesotho, not from Wales, and shifting that power back to the places where voices need to be heard. So, I think there's a lot that has been done.

I think there are certain things we need to mention where that relationship has been, let's say—is it strong to say 'neglected' by Welsh Government? The relationship that we as WOAG had with Welsh Government was fantastic, and the example that I want to give is around COVID and the people's vaccine campaign. This was really, really important, and we'd written to Welsh Government, for example, on a Thursday, to say, 'Here's the action that we want; these are the things that we need to push you to get UK Government to deliver', and we had a meeting with the Welsh Government following that letter the next day. And the ask that we had and that call to UK Government went a day later.

I flip that to a recent situation in Gaza. In February 2024, WOAG wrote to the then First Minister asking for Welsh Government to call on UK Government to reinstate United Nations Relief and Works Agency funding. There was a debate led by Peredur Owen Griffiths on the 1 May, where he followed up and said that we still hadn't heard back on that letter from February. We finally heard back from the then First Minister, Vaughan Gething, on 22 May. Following that response, the letter—and I'll provide you with a copy of that—did not reference WOAG's calls. We had no meeting with the First Minister. But what it did say is that Welsh Government 'hope' UK Government would reinstate UNRWA funding.

Thankfully, the UK Government did lift that pause in funding on 19 July. But I really want to make the point that if we look at the responsibility of Welsh Government under the future generations Act, as the only nation in the world with a legal duty to consider our global impact, I think that it does our Senedd and devolution itself a disservice for Welsh Government to rely on hope over action. And when you look at that relationship and how—. When the strategy was written, Eluned Morgan was the Minister responsible for international relations. And now we look where international relations is, it's part of the First Minister's portfolio, and we haven't met with the current First Minister, we never met with Vaughan Gething, and letters have taken some time to be responded to.

Thank you. Before I come to Alun, I'm going to bring Heledd in on a supplementary.

If I may, on that point, so, you've made requests for meetings, but those haven't been accepted.

We haven't requested a meeting. What normally happens—. And I think a really important point to make is the relationship we have with the civil servants who lead the programme, on what was Wales and Africa and is now wider, the relationship we have with them is fantastic. We can pick up the phone at any time. We work really closely with them, testing ideas, making sure that we can take things forward, and that is fantastic. We really, really value the importance of the honest and open relationship that we have with those staff.

But what I think we really would like to see is something more formal, where we can have this conversation. Julian was kind enough to give us some time for me to talk and hopefully represent Hub Cymru Africa where possible. He said that what used to happen is that there would be regular meetings with the First Minister, to update on work that was happening, and that that has fallen down the priority list, so we don't have any formal relationship. Maybe that is something that would be valuable. One thing that the Welsh Centre for International Affairs have added is that they are the representatives for the international organisations in the third sector partnership council, but that covers domestic issues as well as international issues, and so to get anything on that agenda is really, really difficult. So, maybe what we need to do is find a space that does hold international relations and back up the level of importance that it should have.

Diolch, Sarah. I'm going to bring Derek in, and then I'll go to Mick for a supplementary before going to Alun. Derek.

Just to add a couple of points, I agree with much of what Sarah has said, but my belief is that the international strategy is there to deliver on Wales's wider objectives, whether it be in the economy, whether it be in culture, and so forth, as well as our responsibilities to be a globally responsible nation. So, I recognise the need certainly to have better engagement, of course, and contact, but my sense is that it is rightly led by the Welsh Government's First Minister because it cuts across, it covers all of Government and should be relevant for all of Government. And I'm not sure we're always maximising that potential and that relationship with different Welsh Government departments.

The other point I wanted to make, which I should have made in response to the question earlier, was in terms of the delivery on the actions. One of the action areas where we feel that there is potential to strengthen it is with the relationships with other regions—with the Basque Country, with Flanders, with Brittany, and so forth. There is a lot of learning that can be had for our public sector organisations from many of these regions in terms of foresight or sustainable development, or whatever it might be, but we don't consistently see that included in these relationships. My sense is that we need an approach to say, 'Well, what do we need in Wales? What do we need to learn about and be better at in order to deliver on our priorities as a country, our priorities as public bodies? Which of these regions can help us with that?', and make sure that features in those memorandums.

Thank you so much. Diolch. Sarah, you wanted to come in very briefly, and then I'm going to go to Mick, but you wanted to come in first.

Yes. Just to say that we totally agree with Derek, in that this responsibility does need to stay with the First Minister, but I think one of the points that we made in our written evidence is where we need to see cross-departmental working, and maybe we need global responsibility to sit in each ministerial role. For example, we don't have any relationship as WOAG with the Cabinet Secretary for the economy. And if you look at the growth strategy, for example, there are ethical concerns. For example, we're exporting Welsh beef to China. That's a climate-intensive activity and that undermines Wales's climate commitments and is in direct opposition to the national milestone that we have on our planetary impact. So, maybe that's where we can do it. There are other members of WOAG who do have relationships with other ministers—the Deputy First Minister, for example, who's working really closely with Size of Wales and has met some of their colleagues that they're working with in the Wampís nation.

Thank you so much. Diolch. Mick, you had a supplementary.

Just following on, I was interested in your comments on Mbale, which has obviously got groups like Pont, in my constituency. They've been, obviously, very, very active, and a lot of people have been out there, but not necessarily that well publicised. It seems to be publicised more in schools now, which is very, very good, because it's a real learning progress, but we haven't made perhaps as much as we should have.

I don't disagree with the comments you make about Gaza. Does that bring into highlight the grey area that we have, that, as well as the soft power of culture, of sport and so on, there's also a political soft power as well, in terms of the ability to engage globally and to be recognised globally? Is what you're suggesting—? Foreign affairs and so on is not a devolved area, but, of course, we do have communities from many parts of the world, quite substantial communities, within Wales, and representing their interests, it seems to me, is one of the functions of Government.

So, what exactly would you be suggesting as part of the strategy, should there be a more proactive and a more overtly Welsh focus that is more independent of, perhaps, UK policy, identity and so on, that specifically reflects, I suppose, our engagement with Welsh communities and those areas where, within the devolved functions we have, we are capable of perhaps being more overt? I wonder if you could just perhaps clarify precisely what you think that should be in that what I'd call, with a small 'p', political soft power strategy.

I think that it's really important to look at the past and how we hold values as a nation, and the Welsh women's peace petition would be a perfect example of that. This was something that was led by women all across Wales, people who, when you look at that petition, couldn't write—they marked a cross to make sure that they were listed, that their values were upheld. And I don't think areas like that are coming out very strongly in this current strategy and could really be maximised. Because when we represent Welsh values, they really clearly stand differently to other nations. One of the most wonderful things that we have as a small nation are the values that we hold, and I think that could be represented, Gaza being a perfect case in point. People across Wales are marching every single weekend. They're not just doing that. There are simple things like kite flying, ways that you can get people involved in showing solidarity that are really safe and open and friendly. And I think it's sharing some of those elements that really need to be represented in Government. It isn't so much the harder things that you're mentioning; it is the soft power in holding our values.

Thank you. Derek wanted to come in on this, and then I'll go to Alun.

Yes, just very quickly, I would say don't underestimate the soft power of much of what we have in Wales in terms of our culture and our sport, and even in terms of our legislation, which I'm here to talk about. I think raising awareness of this has been successfully done—difficult to measure, but it has been successfully done. I think we need to get better at translating that we're raising awareness into practical action that's helping us to deliver on Government priorities, public body priorities, in this country as well as abroad. So, I think the raising awareness is done successfully and we shouldn't underestimate our ability to do that. But we could do a better job of then translating that into delivery.

I'm so sorry, because of time, we're probably going to have to move on. But I'm sure you'll find a way of bringing this into a future answer; I have faith that you'll be able to. Thank you so much, Derek.

Yes, thank you. I want to tie you down a bit, if I could, please, on Government, because you've both said slightly different things, and Sarah, you've said two different things, in my hearing, on your relationship with the Welsh Government. You described your relationship with officials as 'fantastic', which is good to hear, and the rest of it, and then you've been very negative in lots of different ways about aspects of it: whether you're meeting the First Minister or wherever. So, I want to understand what you actually mean and where you're actually resting, if you like, on this. Do you have—? Does the group you represent, so individual organisations as well as the group itself, have regular meetings with Welsh Government? You do have meetings with officials, yes? You do. How regular are they? 

They're sporadic; they're not regular at all.

What does that mean?

So, when there's a specific issue that's happening, when something's happening that we want to respond to, or we need to give in evidence on a particular issue. For example, I know that there was something that the Welsh Overseas Agencies Group was supporting. So, I don't have the answers, clearly. It would have been something that Claire did as part of Hub Cymru Africa when there was a situation about supporting an AIDS project; that was something specific, so it needed to be responded to. But I do want to come back—. Because I'm thankful that you wanted to clarify this. I don't want to come across as negative or critical. What I'm trying to do is make a point of where things are more difficult, so that we can improve those areas, because that's really important.

There are relationships that we have with Welsh Government Ministers that are absolutely fantastic; Jane Hutt, for example, I think is an absolute shining example of the ongoing relationship. In whatever position she's been in in Government, she has always been there to be supportive. And we know that we have that relationship, but what I'm doing here is not focusing on some of those fantastic points, but more on the things that could be improved so that we can get better.

That's what I'm trying to get at.

Thank you.

So, you don't have a regular, timetabled, calendared series of meetings with officials; you don't have that.

No.

So, you have meetings when there's an issue that has exploded or that has come up or that you happen to be campaigning on, whatever it happens to be, and then you'll have a meeting with officials rather than with Ministers.

It could be both.

It could be both.

I think our relationship with officials is much more everyday—. You know, we can pick up the phone at any time and, obviously, it's more formal when it comes to speaking with Ministers.

Okay. So, in terms of the international strategy, which is what we're here to discuss this morning, did you or any of the organisations you represent contribute to the development of the international strategy? I presume you did, because it forms a major part of it. So, if you had that, then are you having a regular—you just said you're not; sorry—a relationship with Government that enables you to discuss the implementation and success or not of that strategy?

Okay, I think this is where some of the confusion lies. We've got a number of members within WOAG who are organisations that work closely on some of those deliverables because they're funded by Welsh Government—Size of Wales, Hub Cymru Africa, those Welsh organisations, have more of a conversation, because of funded projects. Other organisations, international non-governmental organisations—Oxfam Cymru, Save the Children, all the others that I've previously named—have no formal relationship in that sense, don't feed in in that sense, because we don't have any contract to deliver.

I think just other points to make on that are that it's been really difficult for INGOs based in Wales, because of the funding that's been stripped back. Oxfam Cymru, for example, in COVID, had six to eight staff members; we have 2.5 at the moment, and that could get less. And so it's very much—. What we've been saying is: 'Use us; use the information that we've got, the connections that we've got to other countries, or lose us,' basically.

Okay. You've explained that very well; I'm grateful to you for that. So, in terms of the development and refreshing of the international strategy as it moves forward, the organisations—. Let's focus this on the organisations that do have those contractual relationships, just in terms of clarity. Does the Welsh Government work alongside them—I presume they do, but I want it on the record—to not just deliver those objectives, but to refresh those objectives, to set new objectives and to review how those objectives are being delivered? 

So, the latest one-year plan that's come out, nobody within WOAG has had any conversation with anyone in Welsh Government on the making of that plan, and WOAG members have all said to me that they have no defined channel of engagement. But we really would value and appreciate feeding into making sure that the deliverables of this new 12-month plan do meet the work that we're delivering—whether it be on those projects, whether it be wider work that organisations are doing.

Okay. And, Derek, from yourself—. You've got a different relationship, of course, as a statutory body, so I presume you do have regular meetings with mainly officials, I would have thought, on a regular basis, but—. And I presume you have formal meetings with Ministers in order to review a range of different objectives and strategies and programmes and the rest of it. And I'm interested as to the extent to which your office has been involved in the development of the international strategy, its implementation, review, refresh, and whether you feel that you've been sufficiently or fully engaged with that or not.

Yes. So, just to confirm, there is a different relationship. I have regular meetings with Ministers and meet with the First Minister every six months, and international work would come up on the agenda—not every time, but frequently. We deliver a program of work, so, quite rightly, we have regular meetings with officials, so perhaps I'll just bring Najma in to just explain what that looks like.

We have monthly catch-ups with the Welsh Government international team to track our progress, if we're on the right tracks in delivering our program with the international strategy. That's an opportunity for them to tell us as well about any diplomatic visits, anything, that sort of thing. They like to get us involved when people are coming from other countries, for example, and want to know more about the well-being of future generations Act. So, we've got that bit of a two-way relationship, where they tell us, 'We've got these visits coming up in the next month. Can you get involved?', and where we're also telling them how we're delivering on our program for the strategy. We also meet regularly with the sustainable futures division, who do—. They work across our organisation, but, in terms of international work, we meet with them quite regularly as well.

Okay. That feels like a very useful relationship, in terms of—. You said 'catching up', and that feels like a useful sort of conversation to have, as we would hope and anticipate you would have. But can I ask you, Najma: do you also then have more strategic conversations with Government about how the international strategy should be developing, what you would expect from Welsh Government, how you would expect Welsh Government to be learning as the strategies unfold, and then building on those foundations or not, depending on whether it's successful or not?

We do have the opportunity to feed in where we would like to see improvements, for example. Specifically for us, like Derek was saying, are the memorandums of understanding with regional Governments. We do have the opportunity. We fed back that we would like more of a focus, in the refresh of those MOUs, focused on the future gens Act or sustainable development, to give us more of an opportunity to bring back learning to Welsh public bodies. However, with this one-year refresh of a plan, we weren't involved in developing it. We welcomed it and we aligned our program with it. It aligns with the FM's priorities, it aligns with Derek's strategy for his term, so we welcomed that as a refresh, but we weren't involved in—

So, nobody was involved. Nobody in this panel at all was involved in that refresh. Okay. We'll leave it at that.

Luckily, I'm following on with the international delivery plan. If I may, given that you've been able to have time to reflect on it, I note your comment earlier, Sarah, just in terms of the reality of cuts and what that means. Also I note, Derek, you've not shied away from being vocal in terms of calling on the Welsh Government to be very vocal themselves in terms of being a globally responsible nation, asking for greater statements in terms of the ongoing situation in Gaza, for instance. Can I ask: having looked at the international delivery plan but not been involved in shaping it, do you think it reflects well enough the actual reality of the cuts, the global situation we're in? Do you think there are things that should be strengthened? Or are you happy with it as it is?

I think I just want to clarify a point, because, in my understanding, those 15 aims are not to replace the wider strategy, but they're in addition to the 270 actions in the strategy. So, if that's the case, we're not going to look at these 15 aims in a standalone point. But I think what we have referenced is the need for cross-departmental working, and I think, particularly in light of UK cuts to the aid budget, for example, UK Government have done that in order to increase spending on defence. So, my question would be whether Welsh Government are looking at investments that are ethical, that will benefit future generations, when we've got questions about trade with arms companies, for example.

Diolch.

Yes. How I saw the action plan is very much as a bridge between this Senedd and the next Senedd, and perhaps giving focus to the delivery over the course of the 12 months. It's clearly in line with the strategy, in my view, but I’ve certainly got views on where we should go in future strategy, and where we should focus on delivery. If I can give a few of those examples—

Yes, please. 

Just from my experience over the last two years, I think we should be framing the strategy and our success in terms of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015—so, how is our international strategy going to deliver on our ambitions for Wales, and how is it going to help to meet our indicators? And that will be one way of helping us to put some fuller, more robust measures in place to assess our performance. That would be one thing.

As I said previously, I think there’s a real opportunity to move beyond awareness raising, and raising our reputation, which we’ve done a lot of in our team, on the basis of the well-being of future generations Act, to making practical change and difference. So, for example, as I mentioned at the very outset, the increasing focus that we’ve given to involving public bodies, you can see some real changes. They won’t happen overnight. They won’t happen in a year. But, for example, we supported the exchange between Cardiff Council and Nantes, which had previously focused on culture, and they wanted support in terms of parks and recreation, because Nantes is known for being a city that is one of the greenest cities in Europe. So, how can we learn from Nantes and translate that to action in Wales? And I think we can do more of that.

In country years, so the Wales and Japan, Wales in India years, a lot of effort goes into those programmes, and I’ve been involved in some of that. I think—you’d expect me to say this—we need to take a longer term approach to some of these things. So, we can do a lot to raise awareness, build relationships, and resources and capacity can sometimes have to move elsewhere for the next 'Wales in' year. And I think we’re not then doing enough to realise the benefits and the outcomes as a result of that initial year. So, just this week, someone who was very involved in the Wales in India year, in Mumbai, a The Times of India journalist, who was also acting as a liaison between Welsh Government and us, and the Maharashtra state Government, echoed that point, that, 'You did a fantastic job'. We had access to the legislature in Maharashtra, which, usually, I was told, is only afforded to the UK Government and the US Government. And they then went ahead and put forward a well-being of future generations Act in the Maharashtra state Parliament. It’s going to be translated into action; I just had an update this week and commitment from the Government. But that strong relationship, that deepening relationship with a growing economy could then be better harnessed, hopefully, to create jobs in this country, to create trading relationships for our businesses. We do a good job, but I think we could do a better job of realising the outcomes from that engagement activity.

Alun wanted to come in, briefly.

Yes. I think it’s just me and the Chair who were on the committee in the previous Senedd, who examined the international strategy when it was first launched. And I’m interested in your answer there, Derek, because do you believe—is it your view, is it the view of your office—that the international strategy properly and fully, across all its different themes and actions, reflects the imperative given to the Welsh Government by the future generations Act? Is that your view? And, if it is, do you have evidence that it is being delivered, in fact? I accept what you just said, by the way, about the example with Mumbai, and we do hear a lot of anecdotes around these sorts of issues. And I think it’s that that I find frustrating. It’s always good to hear anecdotes about things that give colour to the rest of it, but, frankly, you don’t plan for a series of anecdotes. I want to see a strategy that has the philosophical underpinning that’s been described already, that has a series of actions which deliver those objectives, and then a series of outcomes where you can measure what’s been happening. I accept you can’t do it perfectly on every occasion, everywhere—I don’t want to be overly dogmatic in this. But I want to know that what we’re doing is having an impact, it’s having the impact we wanted it to have, and it’s being delivered in a way that, when I and Delyth were examining Eluned—I think it was—in a previous Senedd, she said it was going to be.

Yes, I agree with you, I think, in that I think we could do a much better job of aligning the strategy, as I was saying earlier, to delivery against the well-being of future generations Act—

So, you don't think it's fully aligned at the moment.

I don't think it's fully aligned at the moment.

Okay. Tell me why.

Well, the key area where I don't think it's fully aligned is perhaps in terms of being able to measure our success. I think the Act is very clearly articulated through all the documents, and it's front and centre, and I think that's right, but apart from individual programmes or even actions within programmes, it can be quite difficult to understand whether those activities are actually delivering the outcomes that we want to see. 

The other thing I would say on my comment about how it could be improved is with a longer term approach. Sometimes, the programmes that we deliver are just on an annual basis. We still haven't had an agreement on next year's programme, for example—this year's programme. And we're in the middle of May. So, if we are to—

So, sorry, what is—

Forgive me. If you could be very brief. I'm so sorry, but we only have nine minutes left of the scheduled time. Sorry. 

Sorry. So, I think that having that longer term approach would support delivery of the outcomes, because if you then move on to something else, then you can't capture those outcomes and evaluate them. 

Thank you. Forgive me about this, because we're so short on time, would the witnesses be able to stay with us until 11:45? Would that work for all of you? Okay. Actually, could you stay with us until 11:50, so an extra 10 minutes? Wonderful. In that case, I will bring Sarah in briefly and then I'll come back to Heledd. 

Thank you. Just on that point, I think that what we're saying is that if we want to be aligned to the broader vision of Wales as a globally responsible actor, then we need this delivery plan to have clear pathways, timelines and indicators. But one of the difficulties is how we reflect the soft power. And to bring in the point I was going to make earlier, we had a visit from an Oxfam colleague who came to Wales for 10 hours in November of last year. She came in advance of going to provide evidence to the court case that's happening in the UK, and she said—and it had been just after 12 months of this awful situation—that those 10 hours in Wales utterly revived her to go back and do that work, having met with different people, with different organisations and with people across the Senedd.

You see, that's anecdotal, and I accept it's anecdotal, but what I want to know are the plans, the objectives, and that they're being delivered. I accept what you're saying, Sarah, and I have no issue with it, but we do keep coming back to anecdotes, and that's a weakness, I think.

We'll probably have to move on, I'm afraid, but this is something I can imagine we'll be looking at, certainly. 

There are members of WOAG who are more involved, but one of the points that members have wanted me to make, for example, is that the voice of peace could be much stronger. Welsh Government funds Academi Heddwch Cymru. This is Wales's first peace institute. It's amongst a global family of research institutes that come together, bringing academic minds and expertise to build a better world through peace-rooted approaches to global challenges. They've been doing some fantastic work, world-leading work, from Wales, and I think that that needs to be recognised. Environmental action is missing. There's nothing on reducing consumption, emissions, reducing Wales's ecological footprint, becoming a deforestation-free nation—work that actually is successful and is going really well. So, that could be in there. And I think, again—I'm going to keep coming back to it—the situation in Gaza. Earlier this week, the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification reported potential famine in Gaza, the real prospect of catastrophic famine, and the Welsh Government has an opportunity and a responsibility to represent Welsh values as leaders in global responsibility and peace building, to do more and say more on that. 

Thank you, Chair. We've covered, obviously, collaboration quite a bit already, but I just want to find an assessment from you as to how you believe that collaboration, in terms of the Welsh Government in the delivery of the strategy, would potentially tackle some of those issues around things like resources, funding and budgetary constraints that the Welsh Government would have, if they can draw on a suite of expertise from other areas.

Shall I come in first? 

Yes.

I think there will be lots of demands and interest in supporting the Government to deliver on its international strategy, and that is good, and I think we can achieve more for the Welsh pound through collaboration. And collaboration is one of the five ways of working in the well-being of future generations Act, so of course you would expect me to say that, but I'd be concerned about collaboration for collaboration's sake.

This comes back, I think, to some of the points that we've been talking about in the committee: what are we wanting to achieve here, what are the outcomes we want to achieve, and who are best placed in team Cymru to be able to achieve that? So, there is a danger of fragmentation that could be damaging, potentially, but I think, generally—. So, it needs to be done properly. I used to work in a funding organisation, so if this was about funding and how the funding is delivered through collaboration, you can create a lot of demand for involvement in a programme that can't be met, which is a big-time resource on those applying for that funding. So, that needs to be carefully done so that we're clear on what we want to achieve, and those who feel that they can have a role in delivering that can be part of it, but not just doing it because there's a demand to be involved, but involving people for a purpose in terms of delivering on our objectives.

I think, for WOAG, given the name itself—we are overseas agencies working together—we do that all the time, and a lot of the mechanisms by which we do it are through our work with the future generations commissioner's office. We collaborate daily and it's all about the shared goals that we have. But I think where we need to see more collaboration is in that cross-departmental working in the Welsh Government. One example could be the recruitment of health and social care workers from India to address workforce shortages in Wales. That raises some concerns because international co-operation is wonderful, it's positive, but it mustn't come at the expense of exacerbating existing inequalities in our partner countries. Work that Oxfam Cymru have been doing with the Institute of Welsh Affairs, for example, and looking at a Wales that cares for people and planet, underscores the need for a values-led, justice-focused approach to care development that doesn't perpetuate global imbalances and is really looking towards the future generations Act in the delivery of that work in looking to a well-being economy, for example.

Do you think there'd be scope within the Welsh Government to collaborate more effectively with the UK Government and, potentially, departments, like the Home Office, to address some of those concerns on issues around things like workforce, and pooling those areas across the UK collaboratively and enhancing those resources that we've got to solve some of those problems, as the United Kingdom, sort of thing, as a whole?

Yes, I certainly do think there's more opportunity to do that. In terms of some of the work that we've done around sustainable development and talking to other countries and regions that have been interested in the future generations Act, last year, there was a UN pact for the future and a declaration on future generations, and that was drawing on the Welsh experience and encouraging other countries to take similar approaches. It was also about agreeing to a UN special envoy for future generations, similar to my role, on a global stage, but the UK was the member state, not Wales, as part of the UN discussions, and I guess we worked hard to talk with Welsh Government, to UK Government, to tell them that there was a UK story emanating from Wales that could support them in their UK-wide objectives, and I don't think that is necessarily always happening to the extent it could.

Thank you. Okay, final word.

I think there are a couple of really important things that we do as a nation-state in collaboration with other nation-states. There's the Under2 Coalition that's looking at climate change. I can't remember the name—I did have a note of another one, but it's in the delivery plan—of another group that's looking at global nations that are working towards well-being—

Regions4.

That's the one, thank you. Yes, there are a number of areas where I think it's really valuable to hold our place as a nation-state to do that collaboration.

Thank you so much. With your permission, we will write to you with any further questions, rather than extending the time this morning now.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, diolch yn fawr.

Thank you so much. Diolch.