Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Bore da. Croeso. Welcome to this morning's meeting of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee here in the Senedd, the Welsh Parliament. I welcome online Members Mike Hedges and Rhianon Passmore. The meeting, as always, is bilingual and headsets are provided. These have simultaneous translation on channel 1 and sound amplification on channel 2. Participants joining online can access translation by clicking on the globe icon on your screens. We've received apologies from the committee members Adam Price and Tom Giffard. Before we proceed, do Members have any declarations of registrable interest they wish to declare at this point? I see no indications from Members. Therefore, we move on.

We have a couple of papers to note. The first is a follow-up letter from Andrew Slade, the director general for economy, energy and transport in the Welsh Government. It was sent to me in my role as Chair of the committee, regarding Gilestone Farm. He's confirmed the deadline for the review of the purchase process relating to Gilestone Farm, stating that this will be concluded by the end of February 2026. He also confirmed that the outcome of the review work will be shared with the committee following the Welsh Government's own internal considerations of the findings. Members, do you have any comments, or are you content to note the response?

Note the response, Chair.

Thank you very much indeed. The next paper to note is correspondence received from Jane Runeckles, FDA, to myself regarding the ministerial code. FDA, to clarify acronyms, as always, is the union of choice for senior managers and professionals in public service, so it's the senior civil servant union, effectively. They've written previously with some observations in relation to our work on Cabinet manuals and the ministerial code. We responded to them asking for further observations on the code. They've now responded with some suggestions of further areas in which they believe the code could be improved. We may, therefore, wish to write to the First Minister highlighting these possible areas for her further consideration. Members, are you content to note this? Are you content to write to the First Minister as proposed, or do you have any comments otherwise?

I'm content to note.

They are highlighting predominantly an issue where there's a difference with the Scottish code and suggesting we may wish to highlight that to the First Minister with a view to her incorporating that into the code here.

To clarify, Chair, has that gone already to the First Minister?

No.

Okay. If that's the case, I'm happy to forward that for their noting. I assumed it had already been to them.

Thank you. We always seek committee consent, so that's wonderful. Thank you very much indeed. If we can now take a short break until 09:35, when we'll reconvene for our first evidence session. Thank you.

Croeso. Welcome back to this morning's meeting of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee. I welcome particularly the witnesses who’ve arrived to give evidence in this session, which will be our second oral evidence session as part of our consideration of the UK COVID-19 inquiry module 1 report. I'd be grateful if the witnesses could begin at this point by just identifying themselves by name and the organisation they represent. I'll start with the people in the room and then we'll invite the people on the screen to take that up. 

Diolch. Bore da. My name is Katija Dew. I'm the acting director for Wales of the British Red Cross. 

Bore da. Matthew Brown, deputy CEO of the Wales Council for Voluntary Action.

Thank you. And over to the screen, Bethan and Clair. 

Bore da. Bethan Russell Williams, I'm the chief executive officer of Mantell Gwynedd county voluntary council in Gwynedd. 

Bore da, pawb. I'm Clair Swales, chief executive officer at PAVO, the Powys Association of Voluntary Organisations. 

Okay. Thank you very much indeed. It's a number of years since I last visited the Powys association, or PAVO as I believe you call yourself, but I remember being very impressed by your proactive, co-productive work at the time. That's declaring my interest, but it's not part of the area I represent.

So, convention has it that I will start the questions as Chair, and could I start by asking, please, what unique capabilities you believe that your organisations offer that can or did enhance the effectiveness of the statutory responders—local authorities, health boards, emergency services—without duplicating their role? Who would like to go first?

Thank you. Reflecting on both the response during the COVID-19 pandemic and in respect of wider resilience, the work of the British Red Cross focuses very much on the human side of supporting individuals. We support anyone who is in crisis, whatever that looks like, and that can vary depending on vulnerability. We don't duplicate the work of the statutory sector; in fact, we work collaboratively with them and seek to deepen that relationship. So, whether that is from within the health and care system, where we support people currently in hospitals, in emergency departments, supporting that pastoral side of things, where we will sit with patients and relatives and explain what's going on, to being out and supporting flood and fire victims, who will be supported, clearly, by our blue light colleagues, we work hand in glove with them to give them practical support such as advice, guidance, cash-based assistance and psychosocial support. So, I think that we as an organisation, but alongside our colleagues in the voluntary and community sector, are uniquely placed to support individuals in a way that the statutory sector can't, and not necessarily should, because people seek and take great value from the voluntary and community sector, supporting them outside of the statutory realm, as it were.

And just to talk about WCVA's role, particularly during the COVID pandemic, we often acted as a bridge between the statutory sector, particularly for WCVA at a national level, and, for my county voluntary council colleagues on the call, at a local level. We often act as that two-way bridge. Sometimes it was about delivery, and that, during COVID, was about distributing funds and getting that out into communities to allow organisations to survive, but also to enable organisations to respond to what we were seeing on the ground. So, we had an operational role. That also included communications and helping to, I suppose, demystify some of the messages that were coming out around various different lockdowns and the rest, and uses of places like community halls.

But then, our role was also to feed back, to take what the community and voluntary sector was telling us and feed that back into the structures that we were involved with at the time to make sure that the lessons, the problems, the issues, the good things—whatever it might have been—were being heard by the right people so that they could be acted on. So, yes, I often describe our work in that space as acting as a bridge between the two.

Okay. Do the other witnesses have any thoughts?

Yes, I'm happy to come in, Chair. Matt already alluded to the unique partnership we have in Wales. Third Sector Support Wales was a really important context during COVID, because the Third Sector Support Wales—TSSW—partnership played a crucial role, because it enabled the link between the Welsh Government right down to grass-roots local communities. Matt alluded to some facts earlier on in terms of messaging, for example. We were able to reach grass-roots organisations with simple, straightforward messaging.

I think, in terms of ourselves as a county voluntary council, we were, obviously, extremely busy during that time, and we played a very important role in disseminating public health information to community grass-roots organisations and to individuals. Also, we developed the advice and guidance for community centres—village halls, for example—which were crucial hubs during this period. And not forgetting, of course, that we were part of the partnership that distributed in excess of £15 million-worth of funding on behalf of the Welsh Government. Our unique role was that we were able to ensure that that funding reached grass-roots organisations in Gwynedd in some very rural communities up in Pen Llŷn, Eifionydd and Meirionnydd—so, really having the knowledge of individuals on the ground, some of our community champions who we were able to engage with at a community level, to ensure that, for example, resources were reaching those that needed to be reached. So, working in collaboration with our local authority in Gwynedd, we worked very closely with the local authority and also with the health board—we worked closely with the health board. There was certainly no duplication, but we were able to reach individuals and very small, important community-based groups, which those organisations wouldn't have had the links to. So, I think we were a very important part of the structure that supported communities at that time.

Thank you.

And if I may, Chair, just quickly add to that, I absolutely saw that picture in Powys. I think one of the unique abilities of the county voluntary councils was their ability to pivot at pace—so, turning around, particularly in Powys, our community connector service and our volunteer service, and turning around in a matter of days from a five-days-a-week service to a seven-days-a-week service, extending our call lines into the evening to 10 o'clock to support individuals, and very much done that in a partnership approach.

Actually, we saw that demand really spike through that partnership with the local authority and the health board, both for volunteers but also supporting those that were shielding. So, there were set questions around loneliness, isolation, access to prescriptions and access to food. We worked with the local authority on that and devising that script. Because demand was so high, that unique partnership with the local authority meant that some of their staff that had been working in libraries actually came over to us as a CVC to build our capacity. 

So, I think that shows the strength of the CVC and, as Bethan said, linking into those really rural communities because we'd already had those links established was really paramount. So, just to give you an example, in Powys, over a four-month period, we had in excess of 4,900 referrals for support, and we actually offered an additional 647 hours of support for people and recruited in excess of 1,400 volunteers that were disseminated out to those community groups that were set up to support the really microlocal response to the COVID pandemic, but very much linking in with our statutory partners and keeping them up to date and avoiding that duplication. It worked well.

Thank you very much indeed. Should you have missed my comments at the very beginning of the first session of the meeting, just to remind you, if you wish to speak remotely, please raise your hand and then I'll call you. And also, this is a fully bilingual meeting, so if you wish to speak in Welsh, please feel free to do so. For people listening in, if they need translation, please press the globe button on your screens.

Moving on to my next question, with regard both to this and future pandemics or other emergencies, what emerging risks are your organisations most concerned about ? How could community and voluntary organisations be more effectively involved, in your view, in Wales's resilience planning to anticipate and mitigate those risks?

Bethan.

Of course, that's an organisational risk, but what, if any, emerging external risks—so, pandemics or other emergencies—are you most concerned about, or, at this stage, are you not aware of any?

Okay. Clair Swales, please.

Thank you, Chair. Just building on that, I think it's the capability of enabling grass-roots groups to also respond, as well as the CVCs. So, whilst we are very much embedded here in Powys in that emergency planning and that response planning, most recently through Exercise Pegasus, very much involved in that and bringing that community and third sector voice into that sphere, actually the capacity of the CVCs to roll that out more widely to those grass-roots groups that will want to respond and ensure that they're doing that safely and coherently and that that is managed well is the challenge. So, it's good that we're involved in those strategic conversations and those planning conversations. For me, the step that's missing is really about bringing those grass-roots responders with us. So, for example, even with flooding, we know that communities will turn out and want to help, but it's doing that in a safe manner and ensuring that it's not done as it's happening in the live scenario; it's enabling them to plan as well, and be more resilient to respond.

Diolch. Thank you. Any comments in the room? 

Yes, thank you. So, if I can just build a little on Clair's comments there, you asked about emerging risks in the wider view. I think, for me, I look back at the COVID pandemic and the response of the voluntary and community sector as a whole, and the kind of surge of individuals wanting to volunteer their time in whatever way, but, as Clair says, we need some infrastructure in place to be able to do that safely and well. I think one of our emerging risks is that the sector's strength is being eroded by a lack of resources more generally. So, individual organisations—. I see individual organisations struggling—their ability to raise funds has been reduced because of the cost-of-living pressures and so on—but also restrictions from funding more generally.

I also see that, sadly, commissioners of voluntary sector services out on the ground are not necessarily applying the Welsh Government's third sector code of practice, which would ensure fair and transparent commissioning. What that means is that individual organisations are not as well placed to secure funding to deliver projects and also to invest in their infrastructure so that they are ready at times that they're needed to respond.

So, I know that's a wider point, but, to your question about the wider challenges, I'm concerned for the sector. I see charities falling over. I see even larger charities really struggling to be able to make ends meet, and there are a number of ways in which we can support that. So, that, for me, is an emerging risk.

I don't know if you want me to go on to your second question, or shall I hand over to you?

Yes, carry on.

You also asked how we could more effectively be involved into the future. I think colleagues have spoken eloquently about at local level, via the LRFs, and I think that's really poignant, that we have moved to a place where we are involved at LRF levels. I think one of the comments I would make about that is that we are around the table, but there are challenges in practical terms. So, for example, data sharing. At the point that we have a call to go and respond, the mechanisms for communication are not necessarily ideal. I will give you an example. A couple of weeks ago, we had flooding in Monmouthshire. Our team was deployed out. We set up a rest centre, supported over 300 people. That went really well. We knew—we were being told by colleagues in the statutory sector—that there were vulnerable people out in communities that needed our support. We were there, we were ready. We had the ability to provide psychosocial support, practical support, cash-based assistance, but we were not given the details of the individuals who needed to be supported. So, we had to sit on our hands, knowing that we had vulnerable people who could have the support that we were sitting there ready to deliver.

Now, if we reflect back, during the COVID pandemic, we at the British Red Cross worked with Welsh Government and Royal Mail to work Wales-wide on prescription delivery. And when I think back to the information governance and data sharing protocols that were taken down very rapidly in order to be able to meet that demand, we can do it. As Clair said earlier, we can pivot, we can be innovative, we can move to whatever the need is at the time, but we need to be able to work collaboratively with our statutory sector partners in practical terms.

Could I just very briefly interject there? To what extent—it's a rhetorical question—do you believe that your services and those of your sector reduce resource pressure on statutory services, and could that be further developed with the resource issue that you highlight being addressed?

Certainly. I think that there is a clear impact on outcomes for individuals that may well—well, will, does—have an impact on presentation to the statutory sector in a number of areas. So, for example, the support that we provide may well prevent presentation at emergency departments because people feel that they have nowhere else to turn. We know that people do present at hospital EDs when they feel that they have no-one else to talk to and feel desperate, and yet we know that, if we were to interject at an earlier stage, we would be able to do that. And we're adept, now, at being able to measure those outputs and outcomes. What we need is to engage with our statutory sector partners on where the problems lie. We know where the problems lie, but we need to engage with partners to be given an open door to be able to provide those solutions at an early stage.

Thank you. Matthew Brown.

I endorse everything that's been so eloquently put there. I think that I would just add, from the WCVA's perspective, that we're certainly seeing a degradation in the resilience and the capacity of the sector at large because of responding to and dealing with multiple crises and issues. There's no doubt that COVID, the cost of living and the changes in national insurance have had a real impact on the sector, and particularly lots of those small health and social care organisations that would respond in such a scenario. So, there is a real risk that the sector wouldn't be able to respond as it perhaps did during COVID, if something came along now. We don't believe that the strength of the sector is the same as it was going into the pandemic. So, that's the first thing, and that's a real risk.

I think, then, building on the lessons and what we're seeing at the moment, especially our recent participation in Exercise Pegasus, is that we have a clear strategic framework. The First Minister has been very clear in the framework about the role and the full role of the voluntary sector. That's clearly in the framework, but that strategic aim and that objective is not yet being met through actual operational delivery, through process barriers on sharing data. I think there needs to be quite a rapid review to look at how we can make sure that the sector is engaged at that national and local level to make sure that the infrastructure is in place to be able to respond quickly and in the best way possible. Whatever happens, the sector will respond and do the best that it can. I think our feeling is that, with some more work and investment and really looking at some of those practical barriers, our response could be much better than it would be at this moment in time.

Okay. Thank you very much indeed. I would—[Interruption.] Mike—Mike Hedges.

Sorry, you went faster than I expected then. Based on your experience, how were societal inequalities insufficiently accounted for in Wales’s resilience planning, and what impact did this have on people’s ability to access timely support during the pandemic? And we know that people were told to keep apart, but, if you were living in a block of flats or in a house of multiple occupation, keeping apart was much more difficult than it was for people living in detached and semi-detached houses.

I'm happy to kick off, Chair. So, yes, the role of the sector in both sharing lived experiences and being able to bring that equalities lens to decision making I think is really important. It was a key role that we played in terms of making sure that those voices were heard during the processes in the decision-making process, and we learned pretty quickly about how we could do things like make information that needed to be shared available in different formats. So, we quite often found that organisations were after small pictures to be able to share in community WhatsApp groups, that links didn't always work to official guidance, so we worked hard with others to be able to turn information into ways that were accessible for other communities to be able to make sure that they had access to it.

I'm pleased that we had an equality cell during operation Pegasus, so that's a good step forward. I think there's still work to do about how we are properly ingrained in that process, but that was a good step forward, in terms of the learnings from COVID.

Thank you. And Clair Swales, did you want to come back in?

Thank you, Chair, yes—in particular, just raising a comment on what Mike just picked up. So, in particular, I'd like to raise the rural inequalities. I know Mike focused on those living in houses of multiple occupation, but what we found was there were people living in very rural parts of Powys that actually may not have been keeping up to date with the relevant information, because there were particular barriers in place for them. Loneliness and isolation had a massive impact on people in rural areas. So, they weren't able to go out and about and socialise and, you know, have those connections, and there was an impact on mental health. So, we found, as the pandemic went on, that loneliness in rural communities impacted significantly.

The way we tried to counteract that was through befriending services and through local community support groups. So, as Matt said, disseminating that information and being that trusted source of information, it was around getting to those people that we would seldom reach—lonely, isolated, rural—and trying to keep them up to date and becoming very much that focal point of information that was trusted from the voluntary sector, and, again, using those micro groups that were set up in those rural communities. So, in Powys, there were 126 community support groups set up, and, without that infrastructure, we wouldn't have been able to get those messages out to those most rural communities. So, that was just one aspect that I didn't want to lose, the rurality impact.

Thank you. I should say that I know from my work at the time that similar issues applied to adults with learning disabilities. I actually had an online meeting with groups from across north Wales and took their messages back at the time to feed that into Welsh Government, particularly in relation to use of plain language, so the messages could be clearly understood, because there was a will to do so, but the understanding wasn't necessarily there.

Okay, we're limited on time. Technically, we've only got just over half an hour left and a lot of questions, so I'd be grateful if both witnesses and Members could be as succinct as possible. But, Rhianon Passmore, over to you.

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for coming today. So, there are a couple of points that have been mentioned that I'll try and feed into my questions—one, around data sharing, I think may be picked up later on in terms of what actually the detail of that is in terms of how to get that right for the future. I'll move on to my questions.

Since the pandemic—and you've hinted at this, so, if you could be brief in your responses—how have you engaged with the local resilience forums and local emergency planning structures? And I note that there are sub-committees that have been set up in Bethan's CVC area, which is very positive. What has worked well? We've also mentioned the general state of the community and voluntary sectors in terms of investment, but where is improvement needed? I don't know who wants to take that first, or if there is anybody that doesn't want to take that question.

I'm happy to contribute briefly. Thank you for the question. British Red Cross has been engaged with the local resilience forums for some time in wider response, and we are part of that structure in the same way that has been described. What we have learned is that we need to build a shared understanding of what resilience actually looks like in response to include the voluntary and community sector better. So, we are there, we're at that forum, we are called upon, but, dare I say it, when the chips are down and it's all hands on deck, are we included to the extent that we could be? I would say that that is not universally the case. We have pockets of good practice, but in other areas we're not used to the extent that we could be, so—

But, to interrupt you, does that mean local resilience forums—

Yes, absolutely.

—in terms of their 'usage' of yourselves? What would help make a consistent approach across the four local resilience forums for Wales? What's needed to embed that consistency? 

Just really quickly on a very practical level, I understand that my colleagues really struggle with ResilienceDirect, which is used as a portal. That's not terribly helpful. That's about a system issue. I think that there is some work to do around consistency across local resilience forums. The WCVA and ourselves have co-chaired a national partnership that works to the resilience forum that the First Minister chairs. We would like to call for that to be active and stood up again, because, as I understand it, that has been under a period of review for some months and that has not been active. The local resilience forum leads do sit on that partnership. So, I think that would certainly give some energy into providing a better consistency across the LRFs and urging the voluntary and community sector to be involved at an appropriate level.

Thank you. I can't see everybody on the screen, so I'm going to move on to my next question. Have your organisations individually participated in any red teaming or challenge exercises to test the emergency planning assumptions, and, in a similar way, if so, what gaps did these exercises reveal? I note, and tell me if I'm wrong, that you were all invited to participate in Exercise Pegasus.

We were involved at various different levels of Operation Pegasus, and I must say it was a really worthwhile exercise from our our point of view. I think our main learning, succinctly, from that is the points we made earlier and that there's still work to do. There is, I think, the will and intent there, but the operational processes have not caught up with that will and intent to make sure that we play what is in the framework as a full role. There are ongoing issues around sharing information and data—turning up to meetings, for instance, and realising all the public sector partners around the table have got all of the information, but that's not been able to be shared with us as voluntary sector members of that. We're either full members playing a full part, or we're not, and it felt, at times, during the exercise—. It got better in phase 3, but in phases 1 and 2, we certainly felt like we were armchair passengers in what was going on around us and not able to play our full role. So, there are certainly learnings that will come out from that, and we've been able to feed this back through the co-ordination group to officials, who, hopefully, will take that on board with the work to come. 

What needs to change, then, Matthew? Because obviously, you were stood up during COVID, and you will understand that there would be a slightly different regime when we're not in a pandemic era. But we are planning for future preparedness and your involvement in the future. What is the reason, that you understand, why that data-sharing protocol hasn't been evolved to include you fully in this planning process?

I think some of it is technical around ResilienceDirect not really functioning as others would wish, so I think there's a technical problem there that needs to be overcome, and that is appreciated. I think some of it is almost changing in processes and culture, realising that our role in this space is perhaps different to our role in other spaces, and how officials are able to adapt and have confidence that they can share and work with us in this space, perhaps in a different way than they would in a normal course of work. I do think that there is a piece of work that could be done that could look at how we break down some of those barriers and we really then meet the will and the intent that's there to make sure that we are those full partners.

Finally, in terms of data sharing and DBR, is there any legal issue with regard to why those protocols can't be inclusive in terms of planning for pandemics?

I don't feel I can answer that question. All I can say is that there is something stopping that information being shared at the moment. I don't know if that's people being unsure of what they can share or if that is a technical, legal or security reason why they can't. I think that's something that we really need to get to the bottom of and try and resolve.

I agree. Is there any other further comment from our witnesses, Katija, in terms of the barriers to being fully included, particularly around data protocols? Because that seems to be the logic. 

Clair Swales, I know you had your hand up. If you wish to answer that as well, please do so.

Thank you. I think, for me, we've had a very positive experience in being involved in Exercise Pegasus. We haven't experienced the same issues that some of our other TSSW colleagues have. So, I think there's a learning piece across Wales to do there.

If I was asked to respond now and bring the third sector to respond to an emergency at this moment, I could. I think future involvement might be more challenging as the sector is facing those financial pressures and capacity pressures. Within Exercise Pegasus, I raised that, saying, 'Yes, this is how we'd respond, but in 12 months' time, it could be a very different picture'.

I think the big thing for me is around that mutual respect for the voluntary sector. Sometimes, the wording 'third sector' is seen as third rate, and actually, the voluntary sector, volunteers and community have a massive role to play. So, it's about a respect issue in some quarters, I think.

And that can be culturally led. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much indeed. There are no further comments on these questions, so I invite Mike Hedges to take up the questions for us.

Getting the message across was incredibly difficult, and we were competing against people who—. I'll give you three that were said to me: 'It's a hoax', 'It's just a minor cold, not as bad as flu' and 'They're just trying to stop us doing things, and it has nothing to do with health'. Those are just three of the incredibly stupid things that were said to me. There were lots of others. How can we improve public messaging? And how can we involve organisations like you in public messaging? Because in some areas, you are closer to the people who the Government is trying to get the messages across to than we are. And can I just declare that I actually know Clair?

Who'd like to go? Bethan Russell Williams, please.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. One of the comments I made right at the beginning of this meeting was about the really important role that we played in the COVID response. It was about the dissemination of information. I think that was the first point I made. Because people trust the county voluntary councils on the whole, we work closely with individuals in communities; they believe us, they work with us. They trust us at many different levels. So, to me, one of our key roles initially was the dissemination of public health information, and, obviously, we did that through TSSW, I would say, very effectively, I have to be honest, because the messaging was coming through WCVA, and then down through the CVCs, via ourselves, down to some of those really rural, hard-to-reach and challenging, shall we say, communities. But I think that's something we actually did really well.

I appreciate what Mr Hedges said, but I think, on the whole, the messaging was successful. I also agree it is one of our key strengths, this trust we have within our communities. That is absolutely vital. People don't always trust Governments and large organisations, do they? But they are very much more likely to trust their CVC, who's worked with them for many years, kept the village halls going, giving them grants, supported their volunteers, recruited board members for them, updated their policies, made sure that they've got good governance in place. They'll trust us because those are the everyday tasks we support them with. So, I'd say that was a key role for us and one that I would say we actually did very effectively during COVID.

Thanks for that response. I think that one of the lessons that should be learned from it is having the right people talking to the right people. There are organisations who are very close to communities, maybe very small organisations who are trusted, and I think that it all comes down to trust. We have a media and social media that is based on mistrust, and it's quite often based on things that are factually inaccurate. But we've got that problem. How could you become more involved in the spreading of a message like, 'This is not a joke, this is not a hoax, this is serious and people are going to die unless action is taken'?

Clair Swales, and then we'll bring Bethan Russell Williams back in.

Thank you. I think the learning from COVID was joining up those comms. Post COVID, in Powys, we've set up a joint communications and engagement group, which involves the CVC, the health board and the local authorities. The colleagues there meet regularly and make sure that we're not duplicating information, but using the best partner to share that information and actually combat some of those myths, or try to dispel some of those myths. For us, that's doing it in a range of ways. We know social media doesn't reach everyone, and social media isn't always trusted, but it's about getting out to community events. Speaking to people face to face is actually really valuable. We've recently been doing a piece of work around asking communities what they want and what matters to them. That's involved us going to things like the young farmers groups, the agricultural markets, the Welsh language chat groups, a whole range of things, and actually that builds trust in itself. So, should another issue like a pandemic come up, I think we're very well placed to have that trusting relationship to help our statutory partners get those key messages out and dispel those myths.

community champions that we work closely with. Those are a trusted individual or individuals that we work closely with. The community champions were extremely important people in messaging during the pandemic as well.

I think this is a challenge that we must not underestimate. It has increased exponentially since the COVID pandemic, and we need to take it seriously. I was very pleased to see, as part of Exercise Pegasus, it was part of one of the work streams. I would endorse what colleagues have said about the voluntary and community sector being a trusted voice. I will briefly give an excellent example of that. Last time around, the Muslim Doctors Cymru group was very small at the time. It was only one or two doctors who were championing good health in our communities, and that expanded quite rapidly to be able to talk to not just individuals in our communities that were Muslim, but anybody who felt that they could relate to being slightly different and not mainstream, if you like—a mainstream patient. And they were that trusted voice in that community, and not only were they talking directly to patients in the community, but those messages were cascaded via the community itself.

So, we as voluntary and community sector organisations are part of that landscape, but we're a really important domino in that continuum. We can pass on trusted messages to others within the community who will then pass that on. But, as I said, we mustn't underestimate this challenge. Social media is a part of this, but only a part. So, misinformation is spread on social media, and then that is passed on by word of mouth within communities. And we are within communities. That's what we are—we're people in communities.

The only thing that I would add to that is the role of trust in this. We were part of, as I think it was called, the warning and informing group, which informed some of the comms work during COVID. I think it's really important for comms professionals and those officials to understand that we'll take those messages and turn them into messages that mean something to those different communities. So it might not be the exact words or the exact way that someone wants it said in the Welsh Government or the UK Government, but we're turning the essence of that message into something that will be understood throughout our communities, wherever it might be. And I think there needs to be some of that understanding and trust to allow us to share those messages in a way that will land, when formal comms might not land with those different communities.

Okay. Back to you, Mike Hedges.

Just very briefly at the end of that—and I'm very pleased with the answers I’ve got—what can be done to help you get messages across? Far too often it's people in suits going on the telly, telling people things and other people in suits arguing about it. How can we help—and I mean ‘we the Welsh Government’— help you to get the message across to the communities in which you live and work?

Who'd like to take this? Katija.

I think that comes back to supporting the sector and really valuing and understanding that the sector, whilst we are often majority voluntary based, are not the cheap option or the free option. There is a requirement for there to be some infrastructure for each voluntary sector organisation—a minimal requirement of resources—but it does need to be there in order for what I call the spine of the organisation to function. And from that, we have a platform within our communities to deliver that good work and those messages. So, for me, to repeat, it is about valuing and resourcing the sector appropriately.

Thank you. Do you have any further questions, Mike?

No.

Okay. I briefly mentioned earlier adults with learning disabilities. During those months in 2020, lots of groups came to me, and organisations representing them in your sector. I think of RNIB, Guide Dogs, organisations representing autistic people and their parents and families, and many, many others. Changes were implemented retrospectively when the concerns were highlighted, or the barriers, more to the point, were identified. Developing on your experience, how were such societal inequalities accounted for in resilience planning? What, necessarily, more could or should be done to avoid that impact on people's ability to access timely support? Looking forward, what specific changes would help embed those inequalities into future risk assessments and emergency planning? 

I think some of this is process and preparation. So, when we look at the protected characteristics, particularly that the equality cell would have looked at during Exercise Pegasus, I think there's still work that we can do to map those out. We have got lots of networks that are meeting that are talking about everyday issues in the sector that can be stood up at times of crisis or a pandemic. So, I think it's about us making sure that we've got those links and that there's understanding that those things exist, and that we're supported to run those things, so that when we need things to turn to in a crisis, we're not creating new things.

I think that some the strengths that we had in Wales here, compared to, perhaps, what we saw in England, were things like funding. We were able to get funds in the accounts of organisations in Wales before the UK Government had even announced funding for the voluntary sector in England, because we were able to use infrastructure, processes and funding routes that already existed. So, I think it needs to be really understood how important these things are, not only in the everyday, but how, as it was explained in terms of having that spine, it allows that then to be quickly and rapidly either repurposed or grown to be able to be used in those examples.

I think there's already been some really great work on this. Chair, you were part of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee that did the 'Impact of Covid-19 on the voluntary sector' report back in February, 2021. There's some really good learning, there's some really good evidence, there's some really good recommendations in that report that I think would be worth revisiting and relooking at, particularly around reviewing the role of the voluntary sector and responding to crisis, and how we make sure that we fully integrate it into planning structures. I think some of those things could be revisited and relooked at and, again, perhaps, re-emphasised.

Perhaps I should also declare I chaired the hospice and palliative care cross-party group inquiry into the impact of the pandemic on palliative care, and a lot of the content and evidence received came from your sector. So, I would commend that also as a resource piece. Any further comments on this question from anyone? Katija. 

Just briefly, as I'm aware of time. I think, at a Welsh Government level and a Wales-wide level, we really need a shared understanding of what resilience looks like for vulnerable people, because that can feel quite different if you are a vulnerable person—if you are a person with a learning disability, or somebody who's older or has a chronic illness. I think that we need to integrate into the thinking the concept of proportionate universalism, into responding to support our communities and people within it, so that there is a clear approach that is available and support that is available for everybody, but understand that vulnerable people, or people with greater challenges, need further support, and to do some intelligent mapping across what that looks like for different groups and have mechanisms in place to support those people.

Thank you. Perhaps I should say representations were made to me at the time as well on behalf of older people, particularly those subject to abuse, which made them even more vulnerable at that time, and other groups, such as the British Polio Fellowship, for example. But, anyhow, Clair Swales, I believe you would like to say something.

Thank you. Yes. Just picking up around supporting adults with learning disabilities, certainly during COVID, we had some very localised groups that had, for a good number of years, been supporting people with learning disabilities and their families. And they really changed the way they were delivering services during the pandemic, moving information online, support sessions online, et cetera. What I'm very concerned about now is that we're seeing these particular groups having to close due to financial pressures. And BCA Independent Advocacy Services in the south of Powys has recently closed this year, and that leaves a large number of people very vulnerable. We're not yet clear what services will be put in place to support those individuals. They've built those trusted networks with those staff members and those volunteers, and it's been devastating for them. So, should we have a crisis now, I'm really not sure that the sector would be able to respond in the same way. And I think that goes back to the comment around mapping. I think we'd probably need fresh mapping of what is available to support our most vulnerable people in our communities, and to identify those gaps and how we can work together strategically to overcome them.

Thank you. I'll move to the final couple of questions, then: what, if any, opportunity have your organisations had to contribute community-level insights, your insights, to the Welsh national risk register? Have you contributed?

Sorry, could you just repeat, because I started writing and then—? Would you mind repeating the question?

What, if any, opportunity have your organisations had to contribute to the Welsh national risk register? 

I'm not aware that we have.

No.

We haven't had an opportunity.

None of the witnesses. Thank you. Earlier in the session, Matthew in particular—not only Matthew, but Matthew in particular—raised issues around data sharing and the practical barriers you encountered. I suspect you've nothing further to add to that, or any further sharing—. Perhaps you could add to it by asking whether similar barriers apply to the sharing of insights with statutory agencies, insights that you had obviously had. Are you able to develop this any further, and what specific changes would you like introduced to remove such barriers in future emergencies?

I think the flow of information from the sector, via partners around the table today back into Welsh Government or UK Government structures—particularly the Welsh Government, less so the UK Government—was good, and the opportunity to do that and the ask for that information was there. I don't think that flow from bottom up to the top was particularly bad, and I think we got better at that. Again, I think, with not much effort, we could make sure that they were really strong and resilient to make sure they could do it in any future scenario. The point that we're talking about is the top-down information coming out to us—there is a block, there is a problem at the moment that we don't fully understand that needs to be looked at. So, that would be my response to the question.

Thank you. I can't see any other indications. Katija. 

Back to my earlier comments about re-standing up the partnership that we co-chair, which then would feed in directly to the Wales resilience forum, it would be a helpful move. I don't think that it's been stood down for any challenging reason; I think it was just a review. But we have been waiting for some time, and I would really welcome that being stood up again and a refresh of its terms of reference, and to look at mechanisms by which the sector can feed in at that strategic level, so that there is Wales-wide input from the sector.

No further speakers have indicated, which brings us to the end of our formal questions. Before we close, have you any other further comments you would like to add that we haven't already addressed? Matthew.

Can I make one point around funding routes? During COVID, we had a relaxation of procurement rules and suchlike that made it much easier for the Welsh Government to be able to fund organisations, or to pass money to organisations like us and the county voluntary councils to be able to distribute that money quickly within our communities. Obviously, with procurement rules then reverting back afterwards, I don't feel like we've still nailed the proper mechanism that allows the Welsh Government to use trusted bodies like us to disseminate funds that are needed in particular areas. So, responding to a flood, responding to a storm, or anything else that may arise, we often find that the will and the budget are there in those emergency scenarios, but there's still a block in terms of having that mechanism worked up, agreed, whether it's a grant agreement, a contract or a framework—whatever it is. I think we're missing that piece of a framework that might just be a contract for £1 a year that sits there, but when something happens, the mechanism is there, the assurances are in place, everything is ready, so that money can be put in that pot and then used to distribute against whatever the required need is. I don't think we have quite nailed that one yet, and that should be a key learning that we are looking to solve.

Thank you. Katija.

Thank you. I think I would close my comments by welcoming our place at this table and at Exercise Pegasus. I feel that that shines a light on Wales's ability and commitment to welcome the third sector and the community sector in all that it does at community level. I think there's a real value in there, and I know that there are other nations that look at us slightly jealously on that, and we very much welcome that. I think, for me, I would really like to see that intention crystallised in practical terms, so some of the recommendations that we have made around communication, taking advice, resourcing, and fair play with our sector. I think that would really help us to help the statutory sector to support our communities and people.

Thank you. If there are no further comments, I will bring this session to a conclusion by again thanking all the witnesses for being with us. A copy or a transcript of the proceedings will be sent to you in advance for checking for accuracy. Otherwise, I hope your day goes well.

Diolch.

Diolch.

Thanks, all. Diolch.

Croeso. Welcome back to this morning's meeting of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee in the Senedd. This will be our third oral evidence session as part of our consideration of the UK COVID-19 inquiry module 1 report. Just to remind the witnesses, this is a bilingual meeting, so if you wish to speak in either Welsh or English, that's perfectly okay, and translation is available for those attending online by pressing the globe icon on your screens. I'd be grateful also, as time is finite and we have a number of questions to get through, if witnesses and Members could be as succinct as possible in your questions and answers.

Perhaps I should also declare that I know all the witnesses. I've worked with Gwendolyn Sterk and Chris Johnes, Gwendolyn in her previous capacity. I've obviously worked with Chris's organisation and with Gwendolyn, in your previous role predominantly, but I also attended the official launch of the Co-production Network for Wales in 2016, so a number of declarations of interest there. I'd be grateful, then, if you could start, please, by identifying yourselves by name and organisation.

I'm Chris Johnes, and I'm chief executive of the Building Communities Trust.

I'm Gwendolyn Sterk, and I'm chief executive of the Co-production Network for Wales.

Hello, I'm Uzo Iwobi, and I'm chief executive for Race Council Cymru.

Thank you very much, all, and thanks for being with us. As convention has it, I'll start the questions as Chair of the committee, and then colleagues will take up further questions as we move forward.

So, in your view, what unique capabilities or insights do your organisations offer that can enhance the effectiveness of statutory responders—that's local authorities, health boards, emergency services—without duplicating their role?

So, from the Co-production Network for Wales, what we do is often work with both statutory and community-based organisations to enable them to do the co-productive practice. So, we actually support a lot of statutory bodies to understand how they can embed the values of co-production within the way that they work. So, our work in particular works alongside those statutory bodies and enables them to build those relationships and connections with their communities.

Would either of the other witnesses like to add to that?

Yes. And for Race Council Cymru, because we're a national umbrella body for promoting inclusion and equality, or equity, and diversity right across Wales, we work very closely with the local authorities in five regions in Wales. So, we have a multicultural hub in west Wales, which includes south Ceredigion, Carmarthenshire, Llanelli, and then south-west, which includes Swansea, Neath Port Talbot, and then Cardiff and the Vale, Merthyr and Barry, and then we move up to the south-east, and that includes Newport, Caerphilly, Torfaen and the Blaenau Gwent area. Then we have north-east Wales, which is Wrexham and Colwyn Bay, and then finally, north-west Wales, and that includes Bangor, Caernarfon, et cetera, and Anglesey.

So, these multicultural hubs are led by people from diverse ethnic backgrounds, and what they do is to work hand-in-hand and connect with their local authorities to cascade any news, any information to grass roots. So, for example, and keeping it brief, one organisation that sits in the hub usually represents a whole load of organisations. So, for example, you might have the sub-Saharan African partnership, the director sits on our black history platform and has about 28 diverse groups under his leadership. So, one message gets spread amongst black, Asian and minority ethnic people right across the whole of Wales. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you. So, Building Communities Trust is a national organisation, but we fund and support a whole range of different local community groups. What we specifically bring as Building Communities Trust is very flexible funding, so that people we work with can respond to changes in circumstance, and that was exactly what happened with COVID. In a way, there was no problem at all with people we worked with repurposing their resources to react to the local emergencies.

But I think probably more useful for this discussion is actually the nature of what our partners can do. And the fact that they are locally-based, community-based, trusted organisations means that they can provide support at very local areas, and they're often very deeply entrenched in some of the most deprived communities, but they also do so in a way in which people are very happy to access because they're used to doing it, they're friendly environments, they're places where people go without fear of stigma, and they offer a critical supplementary service to the more formal local authority or health board services. And obviously, over time, as services have become centralised and more distant from some of our more peripheral communities, these are often organisations that are still in the heart of places that don't have many public services in them any more.

Thank you very much indeed. Do you want to just very briefly give some examples of the services that the organisations you're supporting are providing in their communities?

Yes, certainly. What typically it would be would be a mixture of what you might call social support—so, places where people can go to socialise, and socialise in different ways, make friends, link up with people, which could be anything from Men's Sheds to bingo clubs to mum and toddler groups—and then also places where people get support. So, it might be somewhere people go for—. Food pantries and foodbanks are the stereotypical ones, but there are also things like low-cost community shops, places where you can get advice. You might have CAB drop-in centres. I think there might be somebody from the GP there once a week and so on. So, it's a whole range of things. And the critical thing is it's a place where people come for both support and to socialise, which means that it's somewhere you would naturally go to, rather than somewhere you'd just go to when you're in trouble.

I think I've also seen things like warm spaces, youth groups, and training and skills.

Yes, I could have gone on for a long time, but you're absolutely right, yes.

Similarly, with yourself, do you want to provide any examples of projects that you've been involved with?

I suppose an example of a project that we work with at the moment, looking at how public services can engage and build community engagement and involvement into their practices, is we've been working for five years with public services boards to upskill the board members themselves, as well as officers, to understand co-productive practice. So, we've done training, we've done upskilling, we've been building resources for them to understand what it is and how you can build those trusted relationships, and then we've been working with them to develop those connections with communities around specific issues.

For example, in Newborough, we've done a lot of work around the over-tourism there, initially enabling them to have a hackathon, but then also that onward relationship that they've built to work co-productively with that community to respond to that issue. I was with them this week talking about how they're developing that plan with the community and how they're working in a co-productive practice. They've been having drop-ins, for example, so that the community can come in and talk to them rather than it being—. So that there's that equilibrium of relationship between the community and the public services board members, instead of that divisive, 'We're going to do this' relationship.

Uzo, do you want to provide an example?

Yes, I'll give two examples. I think one of them, which has been really successful, is a diverse ethnic women's project called Chai and Chat. It is an initiative that is running between the local health board in Swansea and the Swansea Council for Voluntary Services and Race Council Cymru, and, together, they have created an incredible support opportunity for refugee women who have come from war-torn countries whose life expectancy and chances were nil when they arrived. Many of them had really low self-esteem, had a lot of anxiety because of all the trauma they'd been through, and, through the support of the health board and SCVS, these women were coming together in our multicultural hub in Swansea and having training development on how to embed themselves, how to live life fully in Wales.

It has been truly a transformational course, and, over the years that we've seen Chai and Chat happen, these women have gone on to serve the people of Wales in remarkable ways. Some of them have gone into the care system, some have become nurses, some have trained to become social workers. So, it's really developed change that we have seen.

Then the second thing is the work that we've been doing with the Windrush Cymru elders, and we've been working very closely with the local authority in Cardiff in particular and the Welsh Government. And because of that work, the awareness raising of the traumas that they have come through and endured, many who served in the military, who were threatened with deportation et cetera, we ended up working with a lady called Patti Flynn to install the monumental stone that recognises the contributions of the ethnic minority servicemen and servicewomen. So, we've been working with the Royal British Legion and the British armed forces et cetera, and that has really gone a long way to heal the divide in the community. Thank you.

Thank you very much indeed. Beyond this particular pandemic, what, if any, emergency risks are your organisations most concerned about? And how could your sector be more effectively involved, in your view, in Wales's resilience planning to anticipate and mitigate these risks?

I think, from our perspective, the COVID pandemic really brought to light the relationship between the citizen and the state and how we need to make sure that there is an effective way of practicing and a flow of information that comes from the diverse lived experiences of people. And that needs to be effectively fed into any planning, both prior to but also during a pandemic situation. I think from the co-production network perspective, what we're aware of is that there is not a systemic approach to enabling that co-productive approach during a non-pandemic space, and so I think we need to be looking now at making sure that we embed that practice, embed those skills, both within the public sector but also that connectivity to the community-led responses that Chris and Uzo are talking about, so that there is that long-term strong relationship now, ready for when the next pandemic is to come. So, we need to be thinking about how we are making sure that the systems that are created are embedded within the co-productive values of sharing power, building trusted relationships and doing what matters to the diverse communities that will need the response, come a pandemic.

So, to go—

Can I come in?

Yes, sorry. You—

Uzo, yes, please.

I was just going to highlight that the pandemic threw into sharp focus the fact that there was a significant disparity in expectancy to overcome the pandemic. And predominantly, I would say that four in—. The statistics at the time were that four in five black, Asian or minority ethnic people had more chance of contracting and actually dying from COVID. And it was shocking to us when the pictures started coming through. For those of us not in the medical profession, we were relying on the news to see and, visibly, a lot of the Windrush elders lost family members quite early on in the pandemic.

For us, I do think that the introduction of the risk assessment toolkit that was developed by Professor Keshav Singhal really came at a critical time, and it enabled the work that health boards were doing and hospitals were doing to determine who was able to stand in front of this pandemic and who should be put into the back sort of work. Had this been done much earlier, I think, before—. A bit like what Gwendolyn is saying, you can't prepare for a pandemic; well, we didn't prepare for COVID before COVID happened, but now that we know and that toolkit is available, it's to continue to amplify its use and to explain how much it could be used as a tool to save lives and to get black, Asian and minority ethnic people fully briefed from the beginning. Because it seemed that more black, Asian and minority ethnic people died from the COVID pandemic, and it was not genetic. The research that was undertaken through the work that the office of the First Minister established through the advisory committee led by Professor Emmanuel Ogbonna and Judge Ray Singh from Race Council Cymru, they showed very clearly that there were socioeconomic factors that affected black, Asian and minority ethnic people. It wasn't genetic, else the whole of the African continent and Indian subcontinent would have perished. So, it wasn't genetic; there were comorbidities, there were social factors that needed to be looked into. So, now, in light of this, I believe that we should be getting prepared for something similar, so that we know exactly what to do and how to save lives much better than we did. Thank you.

I chair, amongst other things, the cross-party group on funerals and bereavement, and we've received evidence suggesting there are also cultural and linguistic barriers. Would that match your findings or conclusions? 

The fact that—. The element that was heightened or highlighted was the fact that a number of medics who were working in low-paid jobs were putting in an excessive numbers of hours without adequate rest. At the initial times, when we had the Zoom sessions, they were talking about being told to go into dealing with COVID without appropriate protective equipment, and, because they felt their visas depended on staying, they went and did it.

I think they mention the fact that—. Well, the cultural element may have played a factor, because many of them had not stabilised their stay in this country, and they felt the need to continue to impress their employers, do more hours than other people were doing and put themselves forward consistently for overtime, because of the need to cover their costs and pay the visa bills. So, it wasn't all—. It didn't affect everybody the same way. Some people had comorbidities that they weren't aware would negatively be triggered by this COVID pandemic. The report is actually available online, the socioeconomic report and impact of why black, Asian and minority ethnic people died, chaired by Professor Emmanuel Ogbonna.

I should also declare that my mentee at the time was a medic who fitted the category you've just described, and who was doing fantastic work—and still is, I presume. But, Chris.

Can you repeat the question, because I think there might be an element that I probably can add a particular angle to? Sorry, can you repeat the question? 

Indeed, yes. How do you believe that your organisation could be more effectively involved in Wales's resilience planning to anticipate and mitigate any emerging risks that you're aware of?

Right. I think, just to highlight the experience of the people we work with on the emerging risks, it's important to recognise they go wider than health. A particular issue for some of the people we've worked with has been chronic flooding, which has devastated a number of communities, and obviously that's more localised, but the levels of devastation when it does hit have been very, very severe.

The other ongoing crisis with the organisations we work with has been on the cost-of-living crisis. Now, that has been mitigated a bit by a number of different steps over time, but I think it's important to remember, when that hit, when the fuel prices went through the roof after the invasion of Ukraine, that was a very, very deep crisis that nobody was particularly expecting or equipped for.

So, to more directly answer the question, I think there is a very mixed picture of links between public bodies and local community groups. There are some examples where quite big, well-established groups—I'm thinking of somewhere like the Llanhilleth Miners' Institute in Blaenau Gwent—are really firmly linked into the local authority and its planning on things like flood reaction or, indeed, in their case, on health emergencies. And there is also a network of organisations that work very closely with Cyngor Gwynedd in north Wales on responses to the cost-of-living crisis. But it's a very erratic picture, and many local authorities and health boards aren't actually fully tuned into all the different bodies they could link up with and they don't necessarily recognise their assets. So, it's actually a missed opportunity by not bringing them into their planning and recognising what they can contribute.

And I think that would be one of the key takeaways for me, actually—for different public bodies to recognise the assets in their area and think, actually, 'How can we work with them and how can we make sure the communication with them is good enough so that we're as prepared as we can be?' but also to recognise, in doing so, the nature of different emergencies means that you've got different types of reaction you can take. Different people will be vulnerable to different situations, and different community organisations have particular strengths to bring into play, but, if you haven't even done that thinking and that mapping, you're not going to be prepared for it at all.

Thank you. As you know, that applies to one of the projects you're supporting in north Wales, which I intervened on with their local authority, who didn't seem to be recognising the strengths that they had to offer. Rhianon Passmore, over to you.

Diolch, Chair. Am I unmuted? I hope so. Yes. Thank you very much for your evidence to this committee so far. I want to ask each of your organisations, and perhaps to start with Race Council Cymru in terms of the report that was published, how you have proactively engaged with local emergency planning structures and the local resilience forums. In that regard, has that worked well and where is improvement needed? My follow-on question will be how have they engaged with you, but if you could just respond to that question first, please.

Thank you very much. This was the period that I actually set up the multicultural hubs on WhatsApp. So we're all on WhatsApp, and there are about 300 organisations linked in right across. At the time, we created a group of leaders on WhatsApp called ‘COVID-19 leaders forum’ and that was where all the information coming from the local authority, from the health boards, from the NHS, from all sorts of professional sites was shared, and then that was cascaded right across the WhatsApp groups.

Because people were so terrified, they weren't wanting to come to events, they weren't thinking very clearly. A lot of the Windrush elders were isolated, the black history communities. People were just in a very, very bad state. So, WhatsApp made it possible for people to be able to pose questions, ask questions. What we did was we added some of the statutory managers and people from the NHS into the groups so that they could actually help to allay fears and communicate information about the vaccine et cetera.

In terms of official planning events, we didn't have much engagement, to be honest. I don't think that I recall any, apart from when the Welsh Government began to do the Teams sessions and briefing sessions, in which case it was easier for us to just post the link and all the groups joined in.

If I can interrupt, Uzo, that's everything that retrospectively has been done during the pandemic, and it's very, very important work, but since the pandemic, has there been any engagement from you to the local emergency planning infrastructure or from them to you? I just want to get a picture of where we are now in terms of preparedness for the future.

No, they haven't, and none of our groups have informed us in meetings—and we do have quarterly meetings—that they are engaging. 

Okay. And from yourselves as the race council, have you made any proactive engagement with the local resilience forums? I'm just trying to get a picture of the flow post pandemic in terms of future events. 

No, we haven't, sorry. 

That's fine. It's just that that picture is really important. Can I ask the others in the room the same question please, very briefly?

From the co-production network, we're not really an emergency response organisation. We are more likely to support—

And neither is the race council, but obviously you're here as the voluntary sector, and you all played a very important role during the pandemic, so that's—

We haven't formally had any interaction, I would say, with the local resilience forums, but what we may have done is, when we're upskilling members of local authorities and public bodies, we may be working with members that are around that table to understand how they can build their co-productive practice for the future. But I couldn't evidence whether they are part of those actual forums. 

Our position is slightly different. As BCT we operate at a national level and at a very local level. We don't operate formally anywhere in between. But we do have very close relationships with the majority of county voluntary councils, who obviously operate at a county level. In terms of trying to support the input of local community groups into things like local resilience forums, we would tend to work with the county voluntary councils and also encourage and support community groups to work with them in turn. Certainly, during the pandemic there were a couple of really good examples, again in Gwynedd, where the evidence was taken very quickly by the CVC to the local authority. Since then, it's been more mixed, I would say. I think the example I gave from Blaenau Gwent is quite a good one where that relationship and link is working, but it's not particularly widespread.

It's not consistent, then, across Wales in terms of interaction on any front—from yourselves to them or them to you. My follow-on question is slightly similar, but I will ask it: have any of your organisations, the three of you present, participated in any red teaming or challenge exercises to test current emergency planning thinking? And were any of you invited to participate in Exercise Pegasus? 

No. 

There we go. And yourselves in the room. 

No, but I wouldn't expect to be. I think the key question would be were the county voluntary councils invited.

My response would be the same—that we wouldn't really be the right people around that table, but we would expect people we work with to have the understanding of the co-production network.

Okay. And would you see that there would be a role for any of your—? Bearing in mind the differences, but in particular referring back to the importance the race council's report placed in terms of your mandate, would you see that there would be possibly a role for your inclusion, or do you feel it is not your role to be included?

I think, to be honest, we ought to be around that table, especially because of the disproportionate adverse impact that black, Asian and minority ethnic people suffered. And I correct myself here—I had said four out of whatever, but I think I meant four times more likely to die from COVID-19 than their white counterparts. That was not just due to comorbidities—it was due to the social deprivation and poverty in some areas.

I do think that, having seen the devastating impact that COVID had on black, Asian and minority ethnic people, it is critical that black, Asian and minority ethnic research professors, like the group that came around Professor Mark Drakeford, the then First Minister, should have been engaged in helping to build resilience, understanding and a platform for planning. It makes sense, but we've never been contacted and we, in error, have never also contacted anybody to say what's next.

And so this is useful engagement, to a certain degree. 

Yes. 

If there are no further comments—I can't see the rest of the room, Chair—I think that's my questions put.

Can I just ask one supplementary? You referenced county voluntary councils and what you would anticipate they would be doing, but are you aware whether there were any examples of them proactively contacting the community groups that you work with to input into their work with the local resilience forums, red teaming or Exercise Pegasus?

I'm aware of examples of local resilience forums. I'm not so familiar with the other work you've just described, but again, I'm not sure how widespread it is.

No, but you would obviously hope and expect that they would be proactively engaging, not just waiting for those community groups to go to them, who may not be aware.

And in most cases, they do have proactive relationships with many of those groups, though they are limited by their own resources.

Thank you. If you have no further questions, Rhianon, I'll bring Mike Hedges in.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Societal inequalities is what I'm going to talk about. Based on your experience, were societal inequalities sufficiently accounted for in Wales’s resilience planning, and what impact did this have on people’s ability to access timely support during the pandemic? I'm well aware that people were told to keep their distance, but if you're living in a house in multiple occupation, or if you're living in a block of flats with one communal entrance, then your ability to keep your distance is much less than if you're living in a four-bedroomed detached house with a fairly long drive. So, we had that problem. Did the planning take any account of that? And how did this affect people's ability to access timely support?

For Race Council Cymru, the multicultural hubs experienced particular difficulty because, as you know, many of our communities live together. So, for example, within our Bangladeshi community, families of up to five, six, seven, eight could share the same building. So, the likelihood that, if one person contracted COVID, it would sweep the whole family was very high. I think the challenge had always been where to access credible information, authentic information, help and advice, and also to provide those in languages that people could access with ease.

When the NHS began to produce documents, because many of the elderly Bangladeshi people don't speak English, they needed a lot of support from their children to interpret and explain what was going on and how to access support. When NHS services and the Welsh Government began to promote and provide information in diverse languages for ethnic minority communities, that really made a real difference.

I think that there are lessons to be learned from the challenges that people went through. Not everybody lives in the same way and we need to take into account the style of living that some of our communities have, which is where we draw a lot of support from the elderly. Grandparents help to raise the smaller and the younger children. It's still very close-knit families, where it would be difficult to separate people under those circumstances.

Can I add to that? I think some of the characteristics that Uzo just described are not unique to minority ethnic communities either. There are a lot of families where multigenerational care, even if not multigenerational living, is very common. Certainly in places where childcare support is very rare, grandparents play an important role. We know that in many Valleys communities, where people are in occupations where they had to go to physical work, the role of grandparents and still looking after children remained very important, and that made cross-contamination much more likely.

I would accept large parts of the premise of Mike Hedges's question about the issues about accommodation and the differences. What I would challenge, I think, is the idea that there was planning in the first place, because I don't think there was planning; I think there was reaction. But I think one of the issues—and I think you can see this, unfortunately, in health policy, despite the rhetoric about a Marmot nation—is, actually, health policy is largely socially blind. It doesn't take into account, to a large degree, the different socioeconomic characteristics of different people. Therefore, you have a one-size-fits-all policy, which means that, actually, people who have got more challenging socioeconomic conditions are implicitly disadvantaged, because it's based on a norm that is more like the one that Mike described.

That was something that was pretty clear all the way through. The health advice is actually not taking account of what it's doing to people's incomes. The uplift in universal credit from the UK Government was very welcome, and that did make a big difference, but it was pretty much the only step that was taken in mitigation, and a lot of the gaps otherwise were filled by informal responses. Certainly, that was one of the areas where the kinds of organisations we've worked with were especially prominent.

To follow on from that, from thinking forward as well, that's why we are very strongly recommending that co-production practice is built into the next planning, so that that consideration and that voice of those different lived-experience perspectives is there already, rather than as a retrospect. Because, from my experience during COVID, when I was working, at that time, in domestic abuse, often there were having to be revised and adapted responses of guidance that was coming out from Government, because those initial considerations of people's different lived experiences and perspectives weren't taken into consideration in the initial response. So, if we're planning for the next one, we need to have those structures and that asset mapping of what's out there, but also that connectivity down into those different lived-experience perspectives, so that that information flows straight into that immediate emergency planning, at the beginning stage, rather than as a retrospective process, which it did feel like, at times, during the pandemic.

If I recall correctly, I think you wrote to me at the time about that.

I probably did. [Laughter.]

Mike, any further questions?

Yes, about building trust in communication. We all remember when it was said, 'We don't really want to hear from experts.' That's come back to bite us. We also know that people described COVID as a 'hoax', 'just a cold', or 'nothing to worry about', and we had Facebook and YouGov providing a huge amount of misinformation. You get a doctor on television saying something, and you get a person on Facebook saying, 'They don't know what they're talking about; there's no problem with it.' What can we do to build trust in emergency communication, and how can you help in getting that emergency communication out to groups where, as Uzo said, some of them don't speak English particularly well—getting that information out to them, and also getting it out to people who are being affected by a series of misinformation that's being spread? This is only copying America, isn't it, where people have been saying that children were murdered, when they weren't. It's that sort of misinformation problem. How can you get involved in making sure people know what is, effectively, true?

If I can share from the Race Council Cymru perspective, I think it's to involve the community from the very beginning as much as possible—get them all around the table. They're very keen to support, to hear, to listen, to work together with others. But I find often that we are brought in as an afterthought and sometimes as a tick box to complete a circle that's already been formed. During the pandemic, it was really heartening that Professor Mark Drakeford invited social scientists from black, Asian and minority ethnic backgrounds, consultants, medical professionals and also social scientists to actually begin to do this research within a week of beginning to notice the disparities that were affecting our communities.

I do think that the race council were perfectly positioned to support local authorities, to support emergency services, to support the NHS, to support statutory bodies by bringing in grass-roots people in their regions. Talking about the multicultural hubs, they were spread right across the whole of Wales. So, it is very easy for us to pull people together, to come around your table, to share their lived experiences with you, so that you can consider that in the equality impact assessment that is being undertaken ahead of any kind of pandemic or crisis.

I do think that people need to recognise that groups like ours have no core funding. A lot of the work we do we have to do in a voluntary capacity because we have no core funding. We're all project funded, which is a great disadvantage. So, to secure the presence of people who are going to lead this work, it's important to fund them properly so that we're better able to be available in times of crisis.

I think I'm going to pick up on the word 'trust' that was mentioned. I think the basis of co-production is about a trusted relationship between those who are using services and those who are delivering services. When we're wanting to make sure that the right messages get through and also to counter misinformation, if you have been able to develop that localised trusted relationship, I think, often, that negates some of that wider misinformation. But we are seeing on the ground that that is a very difficult situation to be in, particularly where services aren't consistent at the moment, as Uzo was mentioning, around that sort of long-term funding and stability of services, and also the people in those services. So, those who are delivering those services, whether they're volunteers or professionals, have a long-term relationship with those using those services so that it isn't—. People don't trust at the moment. I was talking to some carers in north Wales this week who had found that their respite services were being cut, and that trust that they had with that service being there is gone because they can't guarantee that it's going to be there. In a pandemic situation, we need them to have that trust that that service is going to be there and that they can have that relationship, and then they would have the trust of the information coming through that service as well. So, I think we need to do some significant work so that people can feel that they can trust the public bodies and the services in their community and know that they will be there for them. And in this uncertain budget time, that certainty isn't there at present.

I think that there are two parts to this question, and I'll deal with the easier part of it first, which is actually how do you get information out there. I think that much of the messaging that came out was reasonably clear, but there were two problems with it. One was actually how do you make sure that it gets out there, which I still don't think that public bodies are very—particularly in Wales, where the media is so ineffective at getting messages to people—. Obviously, during the pandemic, there was an exception with the way that they broadcast the First Minister's statements and so on. There are massive information gaps. The Government and other public bodies tend to think, 'If we send things through the formal channels, everyone will know', and it just doesn't happen, and I think we're still really bad at picking up on that. I think that if we want to get messages like that across, we need to think about all of the different bits of informal communication: who has got the networks, who has got the ways of getting information out across as diverse a piece as possible? And that goes back to the earlier point about the mapping of assets. It's also about information-sharing assets. 

The other problem was, if you share information that is completely impractical for people to follow, like don't go to work, don't mix with your family, for the reasons we've already discussed, it's not going to be credible. So, your information is also starting—. And that's without conspiracy theories; that's just in terms of people's lived experience. So, again, you've got to make sure that your information actually makes sense to people, otherwise it will start getting disregarded, and that was a significant problem. On the second and much more difficult point about disinformation and conspiracy theories, I wish I had a sensible answer. I do know that, for some of the groups we work with, it is a real issue and there are a couple of different approaches being tried, one of which is quite risky to the people doing it, but they're willing to take it on, and others are about offline education with young people, about spotting gaps. And I know it's something that the social cohesion inquiry and its follow-up task and finish group are looking at. But I think that Mike Hedges is absolutely right—it's a real issue and it's definitely one that's recognised within community groups, but I don't think that there are any immediate answers at the moment to that, but it is something where we need to keep on working.

Thank you for that. My final question: we have different cultures, don't we? If you go into a supermarket or go along the front in Swansea, you'll see people of south Asian descent wearing masks. It's a natural thing to do. Whereas if you go into a football club or see other people from other communities in exactly the same places, wearing a mask is something that isn't done. And we got out of the habit of hand sanitising very, very quickly. Now, that was an easy thing to do and it didn't take much time, it wasn't particularly difficult, it didn't cost very much, and it tended to work, not just for COVID but for other diseases that are passed on. What can we do to get that message across, maybe not to get the rest of us wearing masks, but to actually get that hand sanitising, which was simple, easy and worked, being done again?

I suspect the key thing, actually, given the impact of COVID messaging, would be to disconnect the benefits from COVID and actually talk about it in terms of what people are facing here and now. Actually, this winter might have been a good time to do it as there are so many different illnesses and bugs going around that the timing would be good, and talking about it in terms of looking after your elderly relatives because they can be the most vulnerable, again, would probably be a good way of doing it. But, yes, you're right—it is, in a sense, a missed opportunity because it was an effective way and it's very simple.

Yes, I would say the same. From a co-production perspective, one of our core values is doing what matters for people. And I think that it's exactly that—connecting it to what matters to people today, rather than a retrospective perspective, would actually make a difference. Culture change is hard, it takes time and it will take time to embed. But I think connecting it to the day-to-day and what matters to people will make that difference.

And I think, for our diverse ethnic groups, there were a number, and still are a number, of brilliant black, Asian, minority ethnic groups, eastern European groups, Roma, travelling community groups that will rally around and come together and cascade information, like Race Equality First, like EYST, like BAWSO—all sorts of groups that are really powering away, doing good work in Wales for the people of Wales. I think bringing them on side and on board to help cascade information—. Imagine just Race Council Cymru—as small as we are, we have just over 8,000 networked individuals and organisations, so just having that opportunity to send one information, it goes very far, and it's a missed opportunity not to engage as soon as possible and explore how we can help to stem the tide of misinformation.

And I think one example that has really worked is when there were a lot of fears about the incident that was happening to the Welsh Refugee Council. Immediately, the Welsh Government provided community groups with a guidance document that gave them hints and tips on how to dispel and bust myths that were circulating. That really helped to reassure and that gave a tool in the hand of the community leaders to say to their community members, 'Look at this guidance. These are the things that you must do. This is how you can react to things. This is what you mustn't do'. It really made a huge difference, so more guidance like that in those moments will be of great use.

Thank you. So, make time to save time, essentially. In terms of emergency communications, to what extent, more broadly, do you believe lessons have been learned about the issues subsequently highlighted by blind and partially sighted people, deaf BSL signers, adults with learning disabilities and others, all of whom encountered communication barriers in that messaging at the outset?

I'm not sure I feel qualified to answer that question.

I don't know how much lessons have been learned. But I think it goes back to that point of when we're looking at designing this information to go out, it's about co‑designing it with those that understand that lived experience—so, you co‑design the information campaign with people who have an understanding of being deaf within a community. They have an understanding. Similarly, some will have an understanding of what it's like to live in a domestic abuse situation, so you're not saying, 'Stay at home' to women. If we co‑design these things, that will be baked into the messaging from the beginning.

And co‑deliver.

Yes, but start at co‑design.

Thank you. I'll move to the concluding questions. To what extent, if any, have your organisations had an opportunity to contribute your insights to the Welsh national risk register? I think Uzo made some reference to this earlier, but have you had any opportunity?

I don't—

Not officially, no, unless it's through consultation and engagement with the Welsh Government, where they've asked questions or consulted with community groups, but maybe not spelt out that they were including some of the information.

Okay. And not at all with the other—

My answer would be the same, actually. 

Thank you. And finally, what practical barriers, if any, did you encounter when sharing data or your insights with statutory agencies during the pandemic, and what, if any, specific changes do you believe would help remove those barriers in future emergencies?

I just think, for us, one of the biggest lessons is to understand that the lack of preparedness for the comorbidities, for the social deprivation, and some members living in actual poverty, serious poverty, would have a life-changing impact on many of them. I think that has come forward strongly, that a number of black, Asian and minority ethnic people sacrificed their lives to save the people living in Wales from this COVID pandemic. One such person was Donna Campbell, who was one of our Windrush members who served in Velindre. She was one of those to die very early on in the pandemic, and she had two young children. She was a single mother and had just survived cancer when she was saving COVID patients and contracted the virus herself. So, it is devastating because today her children don't have their mother.

We still continue to face racism in all aspects of our lives. Racism is on the rise. There's a significant fear amongst people who look like me that their lives will be attacked, that they will face all sorts of difficulties. I think that, whether we've experienced anything like it or not, it's worth thinking about how we can mitigate hardships that particularly affect minoritised groups. I'm talking not just about black, Asian and minority ethnic people, but eastern Europeans, Gypsy Roma, looking at people with disabilities, disabled people, looking at LGBTQAI people, looking at those who are asylum seekers and refugees, those who may be neurodiverse, how are they going to cope in this, and involving all of us, all these communities in your equality impact assessment at the start of your work to save lives in a pandemic.

That brings us to the end of the formal questions, and there are two or three minutes remaining. Do you have any final issues you'd like to raise that we haven't already addressed?

Can I just comment on the data sharing—

Of course, sorry.

—the data sharing question? I think it's also worth remembering that the nature of what data is collected is quite focused, and, as mentioned earlier, it focuses on very specific identified vulnerabilities. So, particularly, vulnerabilities that are linked to poverty don't tend to get collected because they're such a general and wide part of the population. So, they can get missed out.

And also in the types of interaction between community organisations and public bodies, data exchange is rarely one of the things that is discussed. It's more about general trends and issues or very specific individual cases, and it's not about wider data, but the key missing gap is what kind of data is being sought, anyway. Looking back at some of the earlier discussions you had this morning, which I saw on screen, the nature of vulnerabilities discussed again was very specific around health and social care issues. I think it's worth being very aware that there are wider vulnerabilities that aren't necessarily directly linked to health, although they will have wider health impacts.

Do you wish to add to that?

No, not on the information sharing.

And then on any other points.

In summary, I think, from our perspective, we need—. There were some really good moments where the statutory sector were very grateful for the connections and abilities of community-led approaches to be really hyperlocal, to reach down into those communities. What we've seen subsequently isn't necessarily that being built on. I think what we need to look at is how do we build in that flexibility and adaptability within our structures and systems, so that we can maintain that centring of diverse lived experience in any planning for the future, and utilise the skills and understanding of the many, rather than be restricted by hierarchical statutory sectors, and make sure that we invest in that, so that it is still there when the next pandemic comes.

Can I just add very quickly to that? This is one of the issues that, in the third sector COVID report response to the Minister at the time, we were actually warning that this was at risk of happening, that we'd built some really interesting, more flexible ways of working that had supported vulnerable people really effectively on the ground in their communities, and if we went back to the old ways of working, that would all be lost. And while it hasn't gone back to the old ways of working everywhere, it has predominantly gone back to the old ways of working, and many of the lessons have already been forgotten.

Do you have anything to add?

Sorry, Chair, I don't know if you're speaking to me, because I've got my hand up.

Sorry. Rhianon, yes.

Very briefly, the comments earlier of our previous witnesses around data sharing from responses wouldn't necessarily be applicable to this room, but in particular to race council, if you were in the room, in a constructive sense, around that round-table, and as a primary thought, Uzo, which I'm sure is a school for thought for many people, what sort of data sharing do you think would be applicable? Because there's a great issue in terms of the current data protocols being shared with, for instance, those in Red Cross or Wales Council Voluntary Action groups. I don't know if that's a clear enough question. I also note in the comments you've written about data specifically for Wales.

Yes, that's right. Yes, during the pandemic, we found that whenever they brought data that had been collected, they were merged with England. And when you challenged and tested that, they said to us, 'Wales is too small a sample size to be able to disaggregate and give us—.' And then, there isn't any information relating to the diverse ethnic backgrounds, so Bangladeshis, Africans, Caribbeans, et cetera. So, it was very difficult right across the piece to map. But the social scientists who were beginning to work, from Swansea University and Cardiff University, working with Welsh Government, are beginning to really produce searching data. And I think sharing that on time to enable policy makers to use our lived experience and the data, what the data is saying, to make cyclical changes that dismantle the systemic and structural difficulties and barriers that obstruct all our lives would be really powerful for any future, to take the lessons from what has happened and how many people died—much more than our white counterparts—to learn lessons for the future and explore how those can be averted if a pandemic should happen again. We pray to God it doesn't. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Uzo, do you have any final comments or any points that haven't already been touched upon?

No, I just think that it was a very trying time. And I have to say that Wales did a really, really good job, much better than some of our relatives and friends in England. So, yes, it was tough. A lot of people passed away, especially from our community. But I know that we will learn and grow for the future and continue to work together, which is wonderful about Wales.

Thank you. Finishing on a positive note. That brings the question session to an end, so I thank all the witnesses for attending and providing your answers today. A transcript of today's meeting will be shared with you for you to check for accuracy. Otherwise, as I said to the previous group, I hope the rest of your day goes well. And I should say, 'Nadolig llawen a blwyddyn newydd dda'.

Okay. Well, I propose, Members, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of today's meeting. Are Members content? Thank you. I see that Members are content, so I'd be grateful if we could go into private session.