Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Local Government and Housing Committee. We've had one apology for today's meeting from Peter Fox and there is no substitute. Public items of the meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and a Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. The meeting is bilingual with simultaneous translation available. Are there any declarations of interest from committee members? There are not.

We will move on to item 2: general ministerial scrutiny with the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government with regard to the Cabinet Secretary's local government responsibilities. Welcome, Cabinet Secretary, and welcome also to your officials. Would your officials like to introduce themselves for the record, Cabinet Secretary? 

Absolutely.

Bore da. Good morning. Richard Baker, deputy director of place division, and I'm the lead on community assets.

Bore da. Good morning. Matthew Wellington, deputy director for local government policy division. 

Bore da. Michael Kay. I'm the deputy director for elections. 

Okay. Bore da a chroeso. Perhaps I might begin with some initial questions around corporate joint committees and their cost. So, Cabinet Secretary, might you expand on the changes to how the Welsh Government funds CJCs, and why it is now considered preferable to have a specific way of providing grants rather than relying on a general power? What changed to bring about that difference?

Diolch, Cadeirydd, and can I just say at the start that my husband is a contractor for the Welsh Local Government Association?

Yes, it's been four years since CJCs were established, and we've had a proposed amendment or change in recent regulations to continue that phased approach, really, to the evolution of CJCs. I think the changes were necessary to put CJCs on an equal footing with the rest of the local government family, and provides a basis for the provision of funding from Welsh Government into the future. So, that just gives you a bit of a background to something that's changed recently.

We could have used the broad powers to pay a grant, but we didn't feel that that was optimal, and it's beneficial to have the new ability to enable payment using local government-specified legislation. So, we've got new powers to help provide clarity as to the basis of funding that we're providing to CJCs, which does really align more with their functions. For example, the ongoing funding to CJCs to support their capacity, to support their regional development plans and to develop their strategic development plans as well. So, very much we see it as part of the evolution of CJCs, recognising them, really, as part of the local government family.

Thank you. Could I ask as well, Cabinet Secretary, in terms of the need to change the way they are funded, how much of that was a result of the need to provide additional funding that wasn't anticipated in terms of the administration and governance of the corporate joint committees, and what sort of additional funding is being considered?

As I said, the changes were made to provide greater clarity and that really clear legal basis for the allocation of public funding to CJCs. CJCs were established with an expectation that the Welsh Government would have some source of funding. The funding that has been provided has responded to the emerging and changing priorities of CJCs. So, we've recognised the need for CJCs to have funding so that they can deliver against their strategic outcomes, and we believe that regions need to be innovative in the way that they share resources.

We've outlined a total provision of £2 million in the 2025-26 budget to develop CJC capacity and governance arrangements as they deliver on regional transport plans, and to progress, as I said there, strategic development plans. Of the £2 million, I've provided grant offer letters providing £200,000 to each CJC in 2025-26 under the new powers, and that funding is intended to contribute to the development of capacity and governance arrangements in each region. Again, I've also recognised the need to plan in the longer term, and that's my intention, to prioritise provisional funding of £200,000 for each CJC in the following two years. So, they are important allocations, and my commitment over three years underlines the important role that CJCs provide, and the longer term commitment of the Government to help build that capacity within CJCs.

So, has that changed from the initial Welsh Government view, which I think was that, in the long term at least, local authorities were expected to fund the administration and functions themselves? 

It's not the case that any of the funding that has been provided—. As I said, it's very much that they were established with an expectation that there would be a source of some funding from Welsh Government. I don't know if officials want to say any more on that.

Yes, I think some of the funding that's been provided has been recognised as part of the evolution of CJCs. So, for example, the Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for transport has provided funding to support the development of the regional transport plans, as that's emerged as a need that the funding would simply be needed to be used for. Similarly, on strategic development plans, the Cabinet Secretary for planning has provided £400,000 to make that available to help support the development. So, the funding the Government has provided to date isn't necessarily for the running of them, it's to support them in their evolution and the development of their powers.

Weren't those matters part of the original remit, though, for the CJCs? 

I don't know if you want to say any more on that bit, Matt.

So, when the CJCs were established, there was an expectation that there could be some Government funding coming in. And, again, there was very much a deliberate intention that this would be a phased approach to their evolution. So, as the discussions with CJCs emerged, it has been recognised that there's a need for some of that funding to develop their capacity. The funding is there to help them grow into the space where they're able to deliver their functions, and there is definitely an expectation that they are finding that funding from within themselves as well.

Lee.

Isn't the problem that they're resisting every reform at every step? And the whole point of regional working was meant to be that they collaborated, shared resources. And what they've got you into the position of saying is, ‘We'll only collaborate if you give us extra money to collaborate’, rather than, ‘How can we use our existing resources in a more strategic way?’

I think we've got our plans for how we take CJCs forward. As I say, there's not a one-size-fits-all CJC, but we're very much looking to see how they will evolve. And that funding, as Matt said, is there for that capacity within the system. But Welsh Government very much sees CJCs as being that vehicle for regional collaboration, which local government asked for back in the day.

I’m going to do my very best to be on good behaviour now, Cabinet Secretary, but in return, if you can answer the questions I make, I'll then restrain myself. That wasn't the question I asked. Isn't the problem that they are not co-operating with the spirit of the reform? They are only saying they'll collaborate if you can provide them extra money to collaborate, rather than seeing regional working as a way of sharing resources. What can you do about that?

I think they do see that as a way forward, and as a way that they will collaborate on a regional basis. I think that is something they're doing. I think it's fair to say that each CJC is in a bit of a different space. They're not all the same, and I think we have to recognise that. That is something that we are working with the CJCs and local authorities more generally on, on how they can collaborate further and deeper, and I think we've seen from CJCs that they do want to do that.

Okay. Could I just ask about the budget lines, Cabinet Secretary? Where did the additional funding for CJCs come from within the Welsh Government's budget? Will there be a separate budget line in the budget tables in terms of that, if there is going to be that ongoing financial support from Welsh Government to the CJCs? 

I'd just agree that clarity around funding is very important for the Senedd and the public and obviously CJCs themselves. Currently, the funding is provided from three Welsh Government departments, so that's obviously local government, transport and planning. So, from within my main expenditure group, I've provided that £800,000 in 2025-26 from budget expenditure line 887, which is titled 'funding support for local government', just to contribute to the development of capacity and those governance arrangements. As I said, I've agreed that this funding will be available in 2026-27 and 2027-28. So, the Cabinet Secretary for economy has provided £400,000 in 2025-26, within BEL 2250, which is the planning in the economy MEG. That's to incentivise and accelerate the strategic development plan preparation. That £800,000 has been made available within BEL 1882, in the regional transport MEG, to assist the development of regional transport plans. These provisions were established as part of the budget round last year.

Okay. Thank you very much. Siân Gwenllian. Siân.

Diolch, Siân. I think it's sometimes worth reminding ourselves why we got to CJCs really, because I think it's an important part of where we are really, isn't it? Because they did come out of real discussion and a working group, which was set up by my predecessor—I think in her former role, but it might have been her previous role to that. That was a working group that was with local government. The suggestion around CJCs came out of that discussion, and they were established in what local government were asking for, really. So, I think that's worth remembering, how we got to that point—

Yes, I think we all understand that there was a reluctance, and there still is a reluctance, for reorganisation, and that the CJCs then developed in line with that. I think it's important to recognise that.

Yes, absolutely. I think that doesn't take away from some of the really good work that's going on, in terms of federated models, for example, with Blaenau Gwent and Torfaen. There are local authorities working together on that model, which I think is really interesting. I think it's really important to share that as widely as possible, some of that learning, and see how that goes.

So, you'd still encourage that provision that there is for local authorities to merge?

I think it's, again, something for local authorities. As I said, this federated model, which isn't a merger, is really interesting. I'm sure you've been following that as well. I think it does really offer a number of opportunities. I think hearing from the chief executive himself, and the leaders of both authorities, how they can keep themselves, their own identity, that structure, but whilst also having that federated model, is really interesting.

But, obviously, with the CJCs, I think it's been important to recognise that one size doesn't fit all. They've developed on the basis of those regional areas, which I think was, again, the suggestion by local authorities, which was the map that established the city and growth deals. So, that's where we are. But I think that's—. Obviously, those regions are not the same, so it's not one size fits all. But I think there are some really—. They're doing some really good work. I think there's lots we can do in terms of looking at that. I think it's about, right, we look at the governance, have a review of the governance structure of CJCs. So, I think there are things there that we need to support them with, but I very much think that—. It's important to recognise where we've come from, really, with CJCs and their development, and the journey that they are going on now.

So, we've been working with the WLGA on a prospectus for CJCs. That work is currently ongoing, so— 

But that's for individual CJCs to follow.

But it's part of the prospectus, really, to show the real—

So, what would be the national vision in that prospectus?

As I say, it's not a one-size-fits-all approach for it.

No, that's my worry, that it's not—. There isn't a national strategy around transport, which is clear enough for the CJCs to be working together on them. And if you haven't got that national picture—on the economy as well—the CJCs are tending to do their own things within their own regions without that national vision. I'll come on to the economy specifically in a minute, because I think there's a particular problem there, but without that overarching vision, which is supposed to be in 'Future Wales', it doesn't look to me as if that's detailed enough.

Well, I think that, as I say, the strategic partnership agreement, which we did with local government, we worked with local government on, has helped to build and develop an unambiguous and shared position. So, it's about setting out a position on the existing duties within CJCs to help provide that clarity and support in areas like scrutiny. But these discussions have also been taken forward in the context of the local growth funding as well. But, of course, I think there is variability—I absolutely understand that. But I think in terms of the ambition for CJCs, it's a matter for them as individual CJCs. Sorry, Matt, did you want to come in?

Yes, do you want me to add to that, Cabinet Secretary? The other thing in terms of the founding basis of CJCs is that the working group the Cabinet Secretary reflected on recognised there was a need for a mechanism to support regional working and collaboration, because it was recognised that there was a complexity in that landscape, and CJCs were part of that. So, the kind of deal there was that CJCs would be established to support the delivery of specific functions at a regional scale, where it makes sense to do so. So, their three statutory functions are put in place to provide that alignment of where transport, planning and economic well-being should work together at that level and in terms of how it fits in the national landscape. The regional transport plans are there to sit underneath the delivery of the main transport strategy for Wales. So, there is supposed to be that alignment.

But as the Cabinet Secretary's also outlined, the principle of being no one-size-fits-all is there to respect that each region has its own challenges and opportunities, and that is about giving them also that flexibility to work out how best to operate themselves to do that. That has led—. As the Cabinet Secretary has outlined as well, the map that they were drawn on is drawn from city and growth deals and, actually, their evolution, I think, also reflects the journey they've been on in terms of their own maps. So, we do recognise that they are in that different space. As the Cabinet Secretary also outlined, there's this commitment to, and live discussions about, a review of the governance arrangements at the moment, just to take stock of how it's been working with them, to look at how we can optimise that going forward.

So, on the economy, the city and growth deals were UK Government economic strategies, which were imposed on Wales, basically. Unfortunately, we're still following that kind of economic thinking, which is completely wrong, in my view, because I think the economy should be based on helping, or economic development should be based on helping where the poorest areas are, like what used to happen during our time in the European Union. So, you had extra funding going to the west and to the Valleys. Now that seems to have disappeared within this economic footprint. And I think that the actual footprint is wrong as well, because they're not kind of homogenous. North Wales isn't just one huge homogenous economic development area. The north-west is more linked to the Arfor economic development area. And on the Valleys in particular, there's been a report again this week saying that communities in the Valleys are amongst the most deprived in the UK. And yet we're not focusing our economic development in those specific poor areas. We're still following the city deals. And this, now, has become embedded into the CJCs, because they've been brought in, haven't they, to the specific pattern. That's my view. How do you respond to that?

I understand where you're coming from. I heard from north Wales CJC—well, local authority leaders—myself, just around the differences in north Wales. But I know that there are—and, as you say, it is a larger footprint—differences. But there are ways to have sub-groups as well within CJCs, and I think, again, this came out of what local authorities were telling us at the time. But as I've said, we have got our governance review of the CJCs coming up, and that's something I think is worth taking stock of there.

I'll add to that as well, Cabinet Secretary. So, the map, as you were outlining, was asked for by the local authorities, in terms of when the choice was given about what map to follow. So, of course, there are many different maps, as you've outlined.

I think, just picking up on the Valleys, the south-east has very much embraced their CJC as a model, and are very positive about its potential as a kind of operating model. But, of course, each area of Wales is in a different place. But I think commentators like the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development have also noted that there is a benefit to a regional model. Of course, there are debates, then, about the maps, but there is a recognised benefit to doing things at that scale as well, and that's, again, where the CJCs are coming from.

So, we understand that the south-west CJC has considered doing so and that mid Wales CJC is looking at creating deeper alignments. As I've said, the south-east one and the north Wales one have really become a bit of a focus in terms of the delivery of that regional economic well-being. But, as I say, it's for the individual CJCs to determine how best to deliver for their area.

So, we have active discussions with each region about the development of their CJC, and how they might adapt to using and deepening their existing powers. For example, back in October I met with Rebecca and Mark, as Cabinet Secretaries for economy and finance, with CJC chairs and chief executives, where we discussed CJC prospectuses, the governance review, and how those align with their local growth funding discussions as well. I don't know if there's anything specific to add on Swansea bay?

Yes, I think, just to reinforce what you're saying, Cabinet Secretary, this is something we know they have actively considered. Again, in terms of the history, they were the second of the city and growth deals in Wales. They've been on the journey, perhaps, a bit longer, and, of course, we have active discussions with all the regions to understand where they are on their journey. But as the Cabinet Secretary said as well, there is that fundamental respect of the right of each region to determine how best to deliver their own priorities. But nonetheless, CJCs are established to align all of the factors to better align economic activity and deliver economic well-being in their region.

Okay, Siân?

Lee. 

Thank you. I want to extend the theme on something we discussed in Plenary when we were debating our report on housing support for vulnerable people. It's a broader question, which touches on Siân's theme, of the role of Welsh Government in local government. The thrust of your answers so far has been, 'It's a matter for local government. It's a matter for the CJCs.' What is the strategic role of Welsh Government in relation to local government? Is it simply to pass the money on and let them make decisions, or is it to provide national leadership?

I think it's really important that local government have their own—. They're democratically elected bodies, they have their own responsibilities, but obviously there are points that we need to say around leadership and how we lead as well. So, from a Welsh Government perspective, there is leadership, but that is also listening and working with local government, rather than against it.

But how do you exercise that leadership if your consistent response is, 'It's for them to make those decisions'?

I think that it's about working with them, isn't it? We provide that structure in discussion with them, and then it's for them to take that further. I think that the CJCs are an example of that, where they are their own entity and on those bodies are democratically elected representatives in terms of leaders of those authorities—

Sure, but surely your role as a Minister in the Welsh Government is to drive up national performance, and one of the recommendations that we made in our report, recommendation 3, was about the way that the housing support grant was used. And we said that, where good practice—you don't need to find the references, it's just a general point—is identified, it should be replicated everywhere. There should be an 'adopt or justify' approach. The Government should say, 'This is working well here, there's evidence to say it's working well here, we expect you to do this unless you can give us a good reason not to, and if you don't do it willingly, we'll put it in the housing grant conditions', and you seem unwilling to do that. Why?

As I said, I think it's important around how we share good practice. I'll give an example where I see some good practice in terms of Blaenau Gwent and Torfaen in the federated model, as an example, and I'm trying to be a part of sharing that good practice with other local authorities. It might not work for other local authorities, but it's important that that's shown and that the local authorities themselves are able to show that to others as well. It might not suit every local authority—

But doesn't the evidence show that simply demonstrating good practice, saying, 'Look over here; isn't this lovely?', doesn't work. There has to be a degree of rigour in saying, 'We don't believe that there are extraneous local circumstances that mean that this won't work for you. Unless you can demonstrate good evidence why it wouldn't, we expect you to change your practice to follow this exemplar, but you won't do that.

It's not that I'm saying that I won't do that; I'm obviously very keen to make sure that local good practice is shared widely with local authorities, and it is them as democratically elected bodies that have to take that up and have to justify why they won't do that, then, to their own electorate if they see that what they're doing is better than somebody else. And I think—

So, back to the original point, you don't really have a national leadership role yourself, other than to pass the money on and encourage them to look at good practice. 

I don't think it's about that. There's the wider issue of saying, 'This is where the vision is', and that is what we set, but then it is up to local authorities and CJCs, as an example of their own entities, to do that.

So, the Welsh Government is basically like a think tank, then. It says, 'Here's a report, we've got a vision, wouldn't it be lovely if you all did this. We happen to have this money we control and we give you the funding, but we're not going to attach conditions to that because you're democratically elected.'

Well, we do attach some conditions to some things, obviously. I don't know if Matt wants to say about an area where we do so.

I was just going to reflect that, certainly, the word or term that's now being used is 'trusted partnership' at the moment, and the strategic—

How's that going?

Well, I think that the strategic partnership agreement being agreed in June is actually a really important recognition of the progress, the status of the relationship between Welsh and UK Government that's been developed since COVID. 

But these are just words, aren't they, with respect. They're just words. We're talking about driving up national performance, so give me an example from our evidence on support for vulnerable people. Clwyd Alyn told us that despite good examples of really good practice, these are one-offs, and the quote was:

'They’re often pilots; new money is found for a period, there are some great outcomes, and then those things stop when the funding is no longer there.'

Now, this is a tale as old as time. We've been doing this for 25 years—we have pilots, it proves well, it doesn't get mainstreamed. So, at what point are we going to say that this approach we've been taking, which is the trusted partnership, does not allow us to hardwire evident examples of good practice and mainstream them? We're simply carrying on hoping our trusted partners will follow our vision.

I think we're more than hoping that they'll follow our vision. I understand exactly what you're saying, Lee. I've sat in the same seat as you and heard when there's been good practice.

And now that you're sitting in that seat, what are you going do about it?

I'm sitting in this seat now, and I think the point is around how we have to take people with us on this as well. I know that it might sound like that's easy or getting out of it, but it is actually a really important part, I think—we have to take people with us on it. We talked earlier about local authorities and where we were and how we got to CJCs, and I think we have to look at how we can really take them with us. And I think highlighting and making sure that we're saying that these are what we would like to see—'Why aren't you, why aren't other local authorities, taking up some of these things?'—is perhaps shining a light on it. Matt, I can see you want to come in.

Yes, I think I'd add that there are times when Government will be more directive in terms of provision of grants—specific grants. Obviously, the Government has a commitment to reduce administrative burden as well. So, there's always the tension of where do you let the democratic right and independent right of a local authority—. How much do you take that into account? But, I'd also say that the Government has an approach where it's 'adopt or justify' sometimes as well, in the case of your own—

It's not.

Well, in terms of the 20 mph limit, for example.

That was not an 'adopt or justify' approach; that was changing the law for everybody. 

There are times when—

If you seriously think that's an 'adopt or justify' approach, then we've got more troubles than I thought we had. 

So, I think there are times where—

Do you understand what 'adopt or justify' means?

Yes, I do.

So, why do you think that that's an example of 'adopt or justify'?

Well, I think it's one where there's always a tension about how best to do things.

Sorry, that's not the question. That is not an example of 'adopt or justify'; that's an example of changing the law for everybody.

Yes, sorry, that's probably a bad example.

It is a bad example, yes.

I apologise for that one. So, there are times where, using things like the federated model as an example, using times where there'll be specific grants, where we'll be looking at providing that, the Cabinet Secretary provides funding to the WLGA to support facilitation of sharing of best practice and looking at how to do that. So, the Government's always walking that line of when to mandate—of when to set the rules more distinctly versus when does it work in partnership and look at different ways of doing things.

I think it's best I leave it there, Chair.

Okay. Thank you very much. Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. If it's okay, I've got some questions on community assets and community councils, and I was just hoping to ask them at the same time. And just for the record, I'm still a community councillor.

Yes. Okay, Joel. 

So, one of the questions I wanted to ask about community assets is that you may recall, a couple of years ago, the Institute of Welsh Affairs did quite a damning report on the lack of statutory powers we have in Wales for residents to actually look to adopt and bid, especially when compared to what's happened in Scotland and England. And I just want to get some idea of the latest on this, because I know, following the report on the work that the committee had done previously, when I wasn't on it, that a commission was set up, I think, in 2024. And we were going to look at a task and finish group report, which was due to be published a couple of months ago, in the summer, and there's been some slippage. I think now it's about November—well, this month, I suppose—when it's meant to be published. I just want to know if that's still on track. Why was there that slippage? But also, it doesn't really give much time, considering the constraints that we're all under with the elections next year, for anything really to be done about it. And I just wondered if that's a concern of yours, because it's definitely a concern of ours, I think. Likewise, is that report actually going to be shared with us, I suppose? 

Thank you, Joel. Yes, it's an important aspect on community assets. That task and finish group, obviously, was set up. I think the time it's taken shows the complexity and the interest from a number of people. So, we extended the consultation. Again, the complexity was one thing, and there was some illness, which has meant that there was that delay as well, but the report is due to be published imminently, which I count as this month. I'd rather put a month or week to it rather than 'imminent'. But it is going to be published, and we can make sure that is shared with the committee, obviously—I'm very keen that that is done. I think it's going to be—. From that, we'll have a written statement. I'm keen to do that as soon as possible, and we will also publish a report on the Ystadau Cymru website, and we're keen to publish a detailed timeline as well.

But just on, for example, community right to buy, it's something that I'm personally very interested in. I know that other Members here are as well. So, I approved the option to pursue a Welsh Government Senedd Bill next term. I've received formal endorsement from the Cabinet sub-committee back in May on that, and I'm really keen that we make as much progress on that as we possibly can.

Can I just come in? Also, one of the reasons for the delay was, obviously, in the middle of the consideration around community right to buy, the UK Government published their English devolution Bill and, obviously, included within that was their community right to buy consideration. So, within the report, when it's published, there'll be a detailed consideration of the Scottish model, the English model and how that then impacts on what we should be considering in Wales and the issues in Wales. Obviously, there's added complexity in Wales in terms of, obviously, the wellbeing of future generations Act, and that needs to flow through all of that, and the Welsh language as well, being two examples of things we need to consider.

So, I think the reflection, the delay, is well worth it in terms of giving that kind of detailed consideration, which will help then in developing the Bill as we move forward on the community right to buy. Obviously, there are lots of other things as well that the report will cover in terms, hopefully, supporting community groups on this agenda as we move forward.

Okay. How confident are you that the proposed Bill will survive the elections next year, if that makes sense, because, obviously, it's all up in the air? Different political parties might be in charge.

Yes.

And I just wanted to know if you feel that this is something that will still carry on and there'd be enough support cross-party for that Bill. Is the civil service committed to it, putting that on the agenda of whoever's in charge next?

I think it's for whoever's in Government, to put that on the agenda. But I would very much hope that there would be a real desire from all parties in this place after the next election to see that community right to buy, because I think it has seen broad support already. We all know community groups who are keen and interested, and I think having the extra examples from what's happened in England and Scotland will perhaps help us learn any lessons from those as well. So, I'm very keen that that would go ahead in the next Senedd term.

Perfect. Okay.

Okay. We will have to move on. Lesley Griffiths.

Thank you very much. Good morning. I just want to look a bit at diversity in local government, or probably lack of diversity. I think we all accept this is an ongoing challenge not just at elected level, but with officers too. Getting those different voices in is really difficult. There's been a huge amount of work done by the Welsh Government and by Senedd Cymru. I think this committee, when you were a Member, Cabinet Secretary, did a report back in 2013. There was a significant report called 'On Balance'. I don't know if you've had the opportunity to look at that. We've brought in legislation, but still we have a lack of diversity, and I wonder if you could say what improvements you think there have been, if any, and what the impact has been of all these different reports and legislation over the years.

Absolutely. I think this is something that's long-standing, and we all want to see more diversity in our Chamber and in the Senedd. We published guidance in March of this year that we said that we would. That followed a period of public consultation on the draft guidance, which ran from November last year to January this year, and our starting point is that we want to encourage political parties to take those steps voluntarily and to do so with a degree of consistency in terms of their approach wherever possible, and I really hope that this guidance will be a catalyst for change.

We do know that there is an appetite amongst parties to do more in this area, and I think the guidance provides parties with the tools that they need. But perhaps I can just say a bit about my Cabinet colleague Jane Hutt, who is leading on some of the discussions, as well. The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice is engaged with political party representatives directly through discussions on the guidance at the Senedd's women's caucus, the Senedd's cross-party group on faith, and also the regular meetings convened by the Electoral Commissions on political parties represented in the Senedd. And I believe that the Cabinet Secretary is attending a meeting this Friday and is hoping to get a progress update from political parties. Perhaps if there's anything helpful in that, I could ask that that is shared with the committee. And the Cabinet Secretary has also written to registered political parties active in contesting the Senedd elections and local government elections, because I think it's really important that it's not just in the Senedd we want to see that diversity; we want to see that in local government, as well. And we're approaching that key milestone in terms of parties publishing their diversity and inclusion strategies for Welsh elections.

You mentioned the guidance that you published a year ago, and you hoped it would be a catalyst. So, over the last 12 months, what monitoring or measurements have you done around that guidance's impact?

As I say, it is voluntary, but we are providing that to political parties. We will see whether the guidance has the desired impact, really, as required by legislation, when it's put into practice by the political parties. So, that is—

Sorry, is that being monitored ahead of the Senedd elections?

We will be monitoring when the political parties publish their diversity strategies, and that'll be this autumn. I think the natural, like I say, point of review is going to fall after the Senedd elections, and it's going to be really important that we take that learning very quickly into the local government elections in 2027.

So, the reports from the political parties you said will be published in autumn, so I'm guessing that's now—civil service autumn?

Yes, exactly. Matt.

Yes, as you say, on Friday, the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice is going to the Senedd political parties meeting, and she's quite keen to hear from them. That Friday is, of course, six months to the day of the Senedd election, so I think that's the point that we're asking—. As the Cabinet Secretary says, this is voluntary. The Cabinet Secretary reminded the UK Government that we're keen for the UK Government to commence section 106 of the Equality Act 2010, which would make it mandatory to publish data on protected characteristics of the candidates.

But there's only so much that we can do in a voluntary framework, and that's where we're trying to ask the political parties on Friday how they're getting on, with a view to both understanding if they are going to publish their strategies, but also if there is anything that we could be doing as a Government to actually help, with more practical information about the gathering of information, progression, and so on. It's always that slight awkward balance of what the role of a Government is in a democracy and what the role of a political party is, to be able to actually improve the diversity, which we all want to see.

Thank you. I think it would be good, Cabinet Secretary, to have an update if we can after Jane's meeting on Friday.

Absolutely. I was going to say, if there's something that we can send to you after that meeting, we'll definitely do so, yes.

Siân.

Okay. Thank you. Just on data collection, I think it was back in—? Is that okay?

Yes, sorry, Lesley.

It was back in 2011 that the Welsh Government made it a statutory duty for local authorities to conduct a survey not just with elected representatives, but also with failed candidates for an election. Again, that's not mandatory, that's voluntary, but we've seen a significant drop in the number of surveys that are completed over the years. I was just wondering if you plan to do, or if you are doing, anything to try and encourage local authorities to fill those surveys in, so that we do have some really robust data.

Yes. Absolutely. I do recall this from when I served on this committee, as well—this conversation with the Minister. I'm really keen that we try to get as much information and data as possible, and that looks at how we get more people to fill in those surveys. So, I'm really keen to hear if there are any ideas that the committee has and anything that you've heard from any witnesses that would help, because we are looking to launch a new direction for the survey in the coming months. So, anything that you think we can do to encourage more members, or people participating, to fill in the survey, to get that data, is really interesting to hear, because it has been at such a low level, and that doesn't help us to make sort of any improvements where we do. But work is under way at the moment on the format of the questions for the local government elections in 2027. So, we're really keen to improve that return rate.

Could you make it mandatory?

To make it mandatory for people to respond to the candidate survey?

Yes.

Not without a change in the law. So, not currently, I suppose is the answer.

It's just that we—. It's a shame that we've seen such a drop over the years, because I think, when the Welsh Government introduced that, back in 2011, we had hoped that it would be, to quote you, a catalyst to make things better, but it's just gone the other way completely. So, it might be something worth considering, how you can really improve on that.

As I say, I do remember it from last time. It was 12 per cent in 2022, and that just doesn't give us enough rich data to do anything useful with.

Can I ask some questions around the elected office fund, which was brought in initially to support candidates with disabilities to seek election? Obviously, there was a review of that scheme, and I was just wondering if, following that review, the issues that were raised have been rectified and, again, have we seen a good uptake in that grant?

In terms of the elected office fund, we did review the pilot fund in 2021-22, and that was largely positive. It included extending the application period, so that the fund is available and open six months ahead of the election. We hope that that will influence potential candidates' decision to stand, if they've got more time and support that they need in order to do so. One criticism was that that fund was done through word of mouth. I think that that was very difficult to get out to as many people as possible. So, we are working with Disability Wales on a communication strategy, just to make sure that that fund is as publicised and well communicated as possible. We're also promoting that through our social media channels and our general networks. But Disability Wales are targeting messages at local authorities and political parties. I think, again, that both local authorities and political parties have an important role to play in that as well. We'll continue to work with Disability Wales throughout the operation of the fund, just to keep an eye on how that's going and how that communication strategy is doing.

Could I just—?

Sorry, Michael.

[Inaudible.]

Sorry, Michael just wants to come in.

Sorry, I was just going to add—

Hi, Mike.

Hi. Just to be clear, the fund is open now. It's on Disability Wales—. If there are disabled people who are thinking of running for the Senedd, they can go to Disability Wales's website, and they can apply for the fund right now. As the Cabinet Secretary says, it can't just be open and on a website. We need to do more to help people understand that it's there, and people who wouldn't necessarily think about standing. To be clear, this is about the very practical costs that can be incurred by disabled candidates—so, for example, a BSL interpreter for a meeting. So, this is what we're—. It's now there. We're trying to encourage it. We're catching up with Disability Wales in the next week or so to find out exactly what interest they're getting so far, and to progress that point around promoting it further.

So, a spin-off, if you like, from that fund—you've now got the candidate diversity grant. So, it's interesting to hear you say that you've extended the period six months for the elected office fund. Obviously, the pilot for the candidate diversity grant was open for less than a month. So, I'm just wondering why you had such a short period for that. Obviously, that's for individuals with specified characteristics. So, why did that close? Was it because it was a pilot, or—? As Mike just said, the elected office fund is open for a much longer period. But it's good that you've also learned lessons from not leaving it to word of mouth, and you're now working with the third sector around the candidate diversity grant.

Absolutely. The short timeframe is completely not ideal, I understand that, but it was just necessary to ensure that the funding was available for organisations in time ahead of the elections. Obviously, there's a lot going on in this space. There's been a lot of work that's gone on in the background to make sure the elections are ready next year. There are a lot of changes that have been happening. So, that's been, really, the focus. But there is a potential to reopen the fund ahead of 2027 as well, if that is felt to be needed. We'll also be reviewing the outcomes of the 2026 elections and the impact on that, and see if there are any further changes that need to be made in this area ahead of those local government elections.

Can it not be left open for six months, like the other one?

Mike.

Just to clarify a point, the month that it was open wasn't for individual candidates to be applying for that funding, it was for organisations to be disbursing that funding, or—. So, it's not actually disbursing funding; it's providing services, like mentoring, training and so on. So, that month-long period was for organisations. And we did warm up the sector in advance. It was obviously in our legislation. So, it was warned that it was coming, and then we wrote out to every stakeholder organisation that's involved in promoting equality that the Welsh Government has links with, or, rather, that the Welsh Government has knowledge of. We sent it out to all of those people. So, that month-long period was for organisations to apply to provide the support services that the elections and elected bodies Act allows for. Then they will be offering those services to individuals as candidates, both in advance of the Senedd election, and then in advance of the 2027 election.

Is that okay, Lesley?

Diolch, Chair.

Thank you very much. Siân, very briefly, because we have to move on.

Diolch, Siân. Work is under way to extend the current arrangements for executive members to non-executive members. We aim to have the necessary legislation in place to enable councils to use the facility following the local government elections in 2027.

So, it won't be in time for the next?

The 2027—. I think the key point is that the legislation provides that opportunity to implement job-share arrangements. It does not require it; it allows councils to make decisions based on local circumstances. So, again, it's for each local authority. And I, again, remember back, from sitting on this committee, around job sharing, hearing evidence there. But, yes, absolutely.

Okay, Siân?

Yes, thank you.

 Okay. Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. Joel, did you want to turn to community councillors?

If we've got time; I have still got a question. Perfect. Well, as I've said, I'm a community councillor, and one of the things I've raised previously on this committee, actually, has been the behaviour of town and community councillors. From my own experience, I see it as quite appalling. I just wanted to know what the latest is, really, because I know there was talk of mandatory code of conduct training. I always thought that that was mandatory anyway, because I was always told, unless you do the code of conduct training, you're not a councillor. But can I just get some updates on that, really?

Also, the other thing I'd like to try and get an idea of is the support that's there for clerks. One of the issues I've always found is that the clerk would go to the monitoring officer of, say, the parent council—maybe it's Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council, or Cardiff Council—and the response was always, 'Well, that's for you to sort out; it's not for us to provide any advice on that.' And then when they go to, say, One Voice Wales or the Society of Local Council Clerks, they would say, 'Well, really, you should be going to your monitoring officer—the person who provides legal advice in your parent council.' I just wanted to know if there are any plans to look at formalising that help or support that the clerks have, because quite a few of them, I've noticed, have just felt that they're on their own, really, and that has led to a few of them leaving the profession. And as you know, a lot of community and town councils don't have clerks, or they share them with other organisations. I just want to get some updates on that, really, if I can.

Yes, thank you, Joel. I know of your interest in this area. Obviously, I'm exploring the committee's recommendation on this, about introducing mandatory code of conduct training, by amending that statutory guidance. Officials are looking at the moment at how that can be done in a proportionate way, such as specifying the content, the frequency, which goes way above the guidance at the moment. Workshops with community councils have already begun on this, and that will run into the new year as well—so, very happy to keep the committee updated on the work that's being done there.

There are also limits to statutory guidance. It cannot mandate, as it's not legislation, so councils must have a 'due regard' to it. But, like I said, I do very much think that clarifying it would be really helpful and reasonable and achievable. Changes to statutory guidance should be achievable prior to the 2027 ordinary local government elections. I think we all know that changing the guidance, though—. In terms of culture and behaviour, it's going to take a lot more than just the guidance, really, isn’t it? There’s still a lot to do there. It’s complex and connected to a range of issues, such as capability, capacity, attitudes, and it’s going to take time. But we are exploring whether to make training mandatory, based on the work of the 2018 independent review panel and the work of the democratic health group. We’ve had a number of reports around community councils, haven’t we, over the last year, really.

So, I think it’s just making sure that, again, we do this in partnership. I met with One Voice Wales last month, as part of our regular bilateral, and I know from them that training is on the uptake, and they are continuing to engage with the sector on current issues. But I think the conduct is more—you know, it's the one that is really concerning, isn’t it, as you have said as well.

But just to go on to your last point around the clerks and just more training, perhaps, for the sector, we have provided funding for training for One Voice Wales. We’ve also provided an unhypothecated improvement and digital grant award to One Voice Wales, to see how they can prioritise their funding as well.

If there’s more specifically on the clerks, I can—

So, it wasn't necessarily about the training element for clerks, because quite a few that I know of are trained to quite a high degree, actually. It’s just that lack of support that they get when there is an issue. For example, if they’re being bullied by councillors—and that is an issue that's widely reported—what they can do for help, really.

And just another question I have as well, if that’s okay. I know a lot of these councils have local member protocols for how they deal with one another, but that does not extend then to how they deal with other councillors on other community councils, or on the parent councils, or even Members of Parliament, actually, because I think some of us might be surprised. We've all experienced—. A lot of the comments we sometimes get are from opposition politicians, whether they are community councillors or councillors. I just feel like—. Well, what’s being done there, really? We can say 'the code of conduct', but the ombudsman, I think, is quite useless in this, really. I remember a case where a resident made a complaint against a community councillor, but, because she didn’t know he was a community councillor at the time, there was no complaint to be had, even though I thought, 'Well, as a community councillor, you’re a councillor 24/7.' It’s just things like that. I’m sorry if it seems a bit of a rant, but, as you know, this is something quite close to me, because I’ve experienced it first-hand. A lot of the behaviour of a lot of these community councillors is atrocious, really. But I just feel, with a lot of it, you’re just left to your own devices.

Yes, and that’s why we are trying to put some more investment into that wider support, really. But I do understand what you’re saying on that. I think the fact that we’ve heard from community councillors who've experienced abuse from other community councillors is really alarming, isn't it? I think that's why part of the training is—. You know, I'm keen to pursue that. But also how we can look to support others. I know One Voice Wales does a lot of work in this area. I don't know, Matt, if you have any further detail.

I was just going to add, Cabinet Secretary, that from our recent monitoring meeting with One Voice Wales, we know they've been doing a lot of work trying to look at their general offer to the sector—not just the training, but the support in terms of where to go for the kind of advice that you're describing. I know they've put a lot of effort into thinking about that content, and speaking to clerks as well as community councillors. They've recognised their website has needed a bit of a refresh. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but One Voice Wales only deals with clerks and chairs of councils. They don't deal with individual community councillors.

They provide support to councillors, but, yes, the way they provide that support is something they're looking at, because they know that, for example, they've had problems in terms of the uptake of training. They recognise that they provide a lot of information, but they've heard feedback that sometimes perhaps it's too much. They're just trying to look at how they really tailor it to what's needed. But they have had positive feedback more recently that the advice they're putting out there is helpful, the support is being used. They're just trying to figure out how to get it out there as widely as possible to the whole sector.

Okay.

Okay, Joel? Thanks very much. We haven't managed to deal with all our questions, but we'll write to you with the further questions, Cabinet Secretary.

Yes, no problem. And again, we'll follow up particularly around the diversity meeting that Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice has on Friday, and anything else that we've said we would share.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, and thank you to your officials. You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy as usual. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Gadeirydd.

Papers to note is our next item. We have three: a letter from the Cabinet Secretary to the Chair of the Finance Committee in relation to the Building Safety (Wales) Bill, a response from Welsh Government to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee to their Stage 1 report on the Homelessness and Social Housing Allocation (Wales) Bill, and a response from the Welsh Government to the Finance Committee to their Stage 1 report on the Homelessness and Social Housing Allocation (Wales) Bill. Are Members content to note those papers? I see that you are.

Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Are Members content to do so? You are. We will move to private session.