Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Prynhawn da. Welcome to the Equality and Social Justice Committee. All Members are present today. Are there any declarations of interest? I see none. We welcome contributions in Welsh as well as English, and there is instantaneous translation of Welsh where you need it.

I'd like to now welcome Jane Hutt, the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip, and your two officials, Andrew Charles, deputy director of cohesive communities in the Welsh Government, and John Davies, the head of cohesion. Thank you very much indeed for your attendance, and thank you very much for your detailed paper, which covers all the questions we asked you, but obviously all information instantly leads to more questions.

I just want to start us off. We've obviously taken a lot of evidence, which indicates that this is a current and serious concern. I think Professor Cantle summarised it succinctly:

'race and faith have become linked to a much broader political identity that is not only anti-migrant, anti-asylum seeker, anti-Muslim, but is also anti-politics, it's anti-elite, it's anti-rules-based democracy and it's misogynistic.'

So, we clearly have a huge challenge for all of us, and on top of that there's the scarcity narrative that is being used by the far right to whip up hatred against any given group, depending on the context. So, I just wondered if you feel, in the light of all this, Cabinet Secretary, whether all the great things that you are doing are sufficient to rise to the really serious challenge to our democratic processes?

Thank you very much, Chair. Can I welcome so much this inquiry into social cohesion? It couldn't come at a better time. We really are, and I think our officials, we were just saying earlier, are really looking forward to the—. There's a lot of excellent evidence that we've seen, and, of course, all of the discussions and scrutiny today—.

So, there's no doubt that the threats to cohesion are deep and profound, and I broke those down in our evidence paper. I mean, there are long-term societal factors and there are the short-term triggers, and world events, but also we know, alongside that, in terms of socioeconomic inequalities—and, of course, we enacted the socioeconomic duty, which I comment on in my written evidence—we've had years of austerity, and then this development of online hate, hatred, divisive rhetoric, it's created and exacerbated tensions. So, I think the evidence, particularly I was thinking from Professor Ted Cantle, was really helpful, but I think now it is the role of our community cohesion teams throughout Wales, which are continually monitoring community tensions, building their understanding of threats to social cohesion. That's a day-to-day duty as far as they're concerned, but also we have the Welsh Government's hate and community tensions board Cymru, and a representative of the cohesion programme attends those meetings. That's a pan-Wales update on community tensions. Again, that includes all the other partners who are relevant—the four police forces, the Crown Prosecution Service, the offices of the police and crime commissioners. And then we do engage at a UK Government level. There's a special interest group on countering extremism, and, of course, Dame Sara Khan's review very much engaged with this.

So, we have a whole changed scenario and context, haven't we, where we in Wales need to look at this so clearly and carefully. I think we have the tools, we have the strategic approach, the partnerships, nationally, regionally, locally. We have, most importantly, the well-being of Wales indicators, which obviously guide us in terms of monitoring outcomes from the work we're doing in community cohesion.

So, one of the things that I think is important, and, I mean, it says it very clearly—. I did give this update on how we monitor the community cohesion indicators as part of the national survey for Wales, and there are going to be the latest ones available later this year. It does show that 84 per cent agree people in the area from different backgrounds get on well together; 82 per cent agree people treat each other with respect and consideration; and nearly two thirds of adults agreed with all three measures of community cohesion. So, this is an opportunity for us to take stock, reflect on the roles of our community cohesion co-ordinators, all of the engagement that we have, learn the lessons, and look at how those multipartnership engagements, at every level, are working. And it is multi agency, I think, not just Welsh Government—Welsh Government taking a strategic lead, but on a multi-agency basis.

The positive responses to those important three questions to test the level of cohesion were asked in 2021/22. Obviously, a lot has happened since then, unfortunately, and I just wondered—. I know that you're waiting for the next update, but what assessment has the Welsh Government made of just how fragile things are across Wales, given that they can appear from nowhere?

I think I've given you evidence of the ways in which our community cohesion teams are assessing those local tensions, then regionally, and then nationally feeding it through to the Welsh Government's hate and community tensions board. They also relate to their public services boards as well. I met with the community cohesion co-ordinators a few weeks ago and was very impressed in the way that they work together across Wales. They shared good practice with me, they shared information about tensions and then how they were learning from each other.

Again, in my written evidence, I did give some examples of good practice. Clearly, we wait till later this year for that update on the national survey findings, but some really good examples of ways in which now, and certainly in the last two years—. It's back to when we got those last statistics—a lot indeed has happened, and that was during and post pandemic, really, that we got those statistics. We have actually got some very good examples. One of the examples I feel is really valuable is from north Wales. It's in the written evidence, but the Diverse Together conference. North-east Wales and north-west Wales cohesion teams co-organised that Diverse Together conference. I spoke at it. They are actually getting to grips with this. Of course, we've got co-ordinators, but the leaders of our local authorities—and you took evidence from the Welsh Local Government Association—have got to support our co-ordinators, in terms of the work that they're doing and those kinds of events, and there are many other examples I've given showing the here and now.

But, of course, we've also had difficulties, which we've had to address, in terms of what happened last summer. Yes, we didn't have riots here, and I think it's very helpful to see from the evidence that you've gathered, and also that came through, that there was a recognition in the reports that were done that, actually, our community co-ordinators and our commitment to community cohesion and nation of sanctuary actually had a positive impact last summer. We cannot discount the impact that Southport had on our communities, and many of us here were, and I certainly, as Cabinet Secretary, was out meeting communities and addressing and hearing what it meant for them, because of particularly the online misinformation that was coming through. So, that again—. And also we've got to reflect on the fact that we have had difficulties, disturbances, in Swansea and Cardiff. It's how we, as a Government, with local partners, have reacted to that. And I think you'll see the Ely and Caerau plan, and indeed the Mayhill review and plan, have helped, in those communities, move things forward. But there’s no question that this inquiry is coming at exactly the right time for us to look at all the ways in which we are supporting our community cohesion co-ordinators, recommitting ourselves, I hope, to the very strong objective of our well-being of future generations legislation that Wales is a Wales of cohesive communities. And it was 10 years ago we said that—Wales seeks to be a nation of cohesive communities, and a more equal nation as well. And we’ve got our well-being indicators, we’ve got the commitment to a nation of sanctuary, to integration, and to support and to help our young people at school, particularly with the keeping safe online learning. These are all ways in which we have to ensure there’s a whole-Government response to the tensions and pressures on people and communities now.

I did want to also emphasise the fact that we in Wales have—and they didn’t enact it in England; they haven’t yet, I don’t think—the socioeconomic indicator. Because it is important that we look at this in terms of tackling inequalities that are socioeconomically impacting, and look at that in terms of some of the work that’s been done through our small grants, which the community cohesion co-ordinators have got now, to actually respond to how you help communities come together in these difficult times of tension. How we deal with what's online is a whole big other question, which we don’t have all the powers over.

Thank you. Can I now call in Jane Dodds, please?

Diolch yn fawr, Jane. Yes, I think I was actually Minister during the Penally—. I think that, with both Penally and Llanelli, we looked—and they're in the same region as well—at the totally inappropriate proposals that were coming forward for use of accommodation, asylum accommodation, which, at Penally, was the Home Office going to the Ministry of Defence and saying, 'Right, we’ve got this empty army camp', without any thought of what that would mean in a village, in Penally. And, of course, we did a lot of work then, and, eventually, they moved them out and settled those who had been accommodated in Penally.

The Llanelli situation was complicated by the approach taken by the Home Office. So, although I can understand the question about, 'Well, could this have happened elsewhere?’, I do think, in Llanelli, the fact that it was not only inappropriate, taking away what was a prize place for the people of Llanelli, a hotel that employed 95 plus people, who were actually, then, all made redundant, almost overnight, but the misinformation from the Home Office, a lack of information—. I don’t think it was just anti-migrant feeling or sentiment, it was the loss—. There were weddings planned at that hotel. It was a really important community venue, with great memories for people in the area. And, yet, we didn’t get decisions. We got—. As a Government at the time, we were left out.

I think one of the points I’d like to make about this is that this was because the Home Office employs a private contractor called Clearsprings. Clearsprings was responsible for identifying Stradey Park Hotel, without pre-consultation with the local authority, with the Welsh Government, because, when that changed ownership, it was a multinational hotel owner. So, I think there are many lessons to be learnt from Llanelli and, actually, John's been very involved in responding to the report. I went to address a meeting, organised by the key people, the community people, and I think you've had evidence from them. The meeting was called 'Llanelli Unites', and it brought everyone together. But just quickly to say, because I know we've got a lot to get through, I do welcome the fact that the Home Office is now looking to pilot an alternative way of providing asylum accommodation. Dame Angela Eagle came down to Cardiff recently, and we looked at some of the good work that's being developed in Cardiff as a result of the Welsh Government's transitional accommodation capital programme. Many of you might have been to see the modular community homes and community that have been developed here in Cardiff with that funding.20

We talked about the fact that the Home Office want to pilot, asking local authorities if they will pilot providing asylum accommodation, instead of the private sector. Now, they're going to take time, I think, to come out of that contract with Clearsprings. We heard about the owner this weekend, didn't we, of Clear Springs? It is entirely inappropriate, as I said to the Minister when I first met her, after last July, to have the private sector making profit out of asylum accommodation. We, the public sector, could do this. So, I have written a letter to all our local authorities, encouraging them to take part in the pilot. I thought I'd share that letter with you, so that you could be aware, if your local authorities are taking an interest. So, I think, Jane, the situation in Llanelli could have been avoided. It might never have happened. There may be communities—. Obviously, when you identify community tensions, then something like this happens. And community and good community spirit can be destroyed almost overnight, and certainly if it goes on days and weeks, no wonder it got to that stage where we know it's a healing and reconciliation, and and also looking at the resources that people need to regain their pride and their community spirit, which has always been tremendous in Llanelli, and I know that's what the healing process, which is going on now, wants to see. But we have got to make sure that this is why community cohesion has to be there, working preventatively to stop this sort of thing happening.

Thank you very much, Jane. I think we hope that this sort of situation, which I'm not saying was unique, because we know Clearsprings has been looking at other hotels across Wales and they haven't been taken forward, and whatever we do in terms of seeking accommodation for sanctuary seekers, we know it requires absolute leadership, mostly at a local level, but with Welsh Government support, to actually develop appropriate support and accommodation, and, actually, I'd say we've proved that with the Homes for Ukraine scheme, where all those welcome centres could equally have been—. And there were some tensions around the welcome centres even for Ukrainians coming to Wales, but it was a partnership approach, the kind of team Wales approach that meant that we are now proven, I think, in Wales, with our local government colleagues—. And I do co-chair a nation of sanctuary strategic oversight board with Councillor Mary Brocklesby, and we have UK Government engagement in that.

So, I think that the leadership—. Obviously, at the time, as Minister, I was making representations to the UK Government Minister, to the Home Office, and indeed so were local representatives. I was meeting with the leader of Carmarthenshire County Council, because obviously it was in their patch. I was meeting with the police and crime commissioner. But, in a sense, because it wasn't devolved—asylum accommodation provision—we were making representations as a Government. We weren't in charge, if you like, in terms of that responsibility, which we think we could be, and hopefully this pilot, that may be the way forward. But, it was banging on doors, and then it just went on and on. The misinformation got worse and worse, and then I think also it's very difficult—. I recall meeting with people affected, and there was a nation of sanctuary group in Llanelli, who were also trying to put over another perspective, even though they felt that it was very difficult with this hotel being at the centre of it. People in Llanelli wanted to show how they did want to welcome sanctuary seekers and had, indeed, always done so. So, then, we looked to the local community as well. But I think that the lessons learned from the report that has been done in Llanelli mean that we have got to take this forward now in terms of recovery from what happened. I don't know if we've got time, Chair, but if we could just ask John to say something about what he's been doing as the head of cohesion.

John, in your response, I wonder if you could say whether categorically the UK Government has taken action to ensure that Clearsprings doesn't repeat this mistake. This is not the way to operate in any circumstances. 

Yes, no problem, Chair. So, in terms of the work that's been done to respond to those reports, we're working closely with local partners—the council, Llanelli Unites, who wrote one of the reports, the Wales strategic migration partnership, who wrote another, and police partners. So, a broad range of local partners in a partnership that has been called the 'healing the divide partnership'. The point of that is for us to try to be a catalyst for helping those rifts to be healed. And the way that we try to do that is through making an offer of bringing expertise in, if that's what local partners think is needed, whether that be in terms of training opportunities. We know that difficult conversations need to be had locally around what happened a couple of years ago and continues to happen, but also on how we move forward in terms of trying to change some of the rhetoric locally. Well, there is an offer there for training to be brought in. Also funding—if local partners think that what would be best is some funding to deliver some events or some interventions, then we've made that offer as well, and we sit on that partnership group to try to help drive forward progress. So, we're doing that, but the key thing from our perspective is to try to be a catalyst for that multi-agency working, very much in line with the well-being of future generations Act that the Cabinet Secretary talked about earlier, but to prioritise local decision making, because what was really at the heart of what went wrong with Stradey Park was that there was no local decision making; it was something that was imposed upon the local community by UK partners, unfortunately, at the time. 

In terms of the Home Office, going forward, in terms of their approach, the new UK Ministers who have been there now for a number of months have been really clear that they want to move away from using hotels, which is, obviously, very welcome to us. There are still some hotels that are being used—one in Wales, but many more across the border in England. They've certainly signalled that they want to move away from that, but it's going to take them some time to do so, given the contracts that they've got in place. We have imparted to them what we think the lessons are. The Cabinet Secretary talked about Ukraine. I think we've got some real expertise there that, hopefully, the Home Office will look at and say, 'Actually, there are ways of doing this that don't make hotel staff redundant, works with the press and other local partners so that they understand what's happening in their area and have an opportunity to talk it through before anything gets implemented.' That's the approach we took, and we think that's the approach they should take. Hopefully, that will be the case, but only time will tell.

Jane.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane. Well, that's critically important and it goes back to the point of what’s been happening—the divisive rhetoric that’s driven online. I think that's where we have been learning lessons, so you'll be aware that—and, again, it's in my written statement—we've provided information to partners about how to deal with misinformation. That's something, Chair, I don't think is in the public domain, but I'd be very happy to share it. We shared it, particularly—. We started to learn not just from Llanelli, but in the summer from Southport, so we'll share the misinformation toolkit that we've produced for community groups. Also, you'll be aware that the Welsh Government now has got a fact checker, on which, again, we need to ensure that there's more public awareness of this. That, I think, is one of the important points about this inquiry, that we need to make—already, just getting the evidence—what we're doing more public, more transparent, but also recognising that you can stir things up. You have to be so careful about how you handle this.

So, back to Llanelli and the fact that misinformation was being shared, I think I was very minded by the fact that—I think it was Hope Not Hate who made this point—if you have an information vacuum, it provides a space for the far right to move in. That came to you from Hope Not Hate, I think. I mean, it's obvious, isn't it? So, and I'm aware, and I think many of us are aware in our own constituencies, where, in my constituency in Llantwit Major, there was total misinformation about a welcome to Ukrainian refugees coming into the town, and it just hit all of the social media and people in the town thought, you know, that there were entirely different groups of people coming into the town. But, even still, they were getting misinformation. So, we have got now the Online Safety Act 2023, but it's still very early days. It's taken a long time to get it implemented, and the enforcement powers only commenced on 17 March. But we are working with Ofcom about how they're going to work—they're starting to consult on guidance, and, of course, we don't have devolved powers for media. We have less influence, probably, just in terms of the tech companies, so we do make attempts to engage with the tech companies and, of course, I've referred to the 'keeping safe online' pages of Hwb for schools. But this is a whole new dimension of the work that's been done, particularly in terms of campaigns against hate in Wales, and it has to be a whole new dimension of the work of the community co-ordinators, who are checking online—as they told us, they're not just checking tensions in terms of what's coming through the community, they're checking online tensions that are occurring in their communities. The police are very important to this as well. I'll stop there. 

We'll come back to social media a little bit further on. Before we move on, Cabinet Secretary, are you able to tell us that we won't have Clearsprings letting a contract with a viable hotel without any of the relevant authorities even knowing about it?

Well, I certainly will make sure that they don't, but, clearly, it is still not devolved, and I—

But you've had that assurance from the UK Government that Clearsprings will not do that again.

We haven't had any instances, I have to say, since last July, where we have not been fully involved, but it's helpful to have your question today and my assurances on that point. 

Thank you. Sioned Williams.

I think I've given some indication of what we will be doing in terms of addressing this. We have got a year in terms of how we can respond and build on our community cohesion work. I think this is partly how we are going to engage not just with the UK Government, but Ofcom as well in terms of delivering on legislative duties now that they have. But also, I think the work that's been done, and it's fairly cross-Government work as well, in terms of working with Jayne Bryant, for example, in terms of her responsibilities on democratic engagement. It is something where I feel that the funding that we're giving to our community cohesion co-ordinators, is helping them, and the small grants that we're giving are helping them look at particular needs and circumstances. I don't know if, Andrew, you want to come in on any of those more specific points about the work we're doing in the next few months.

I think one of the ones we've already picked up is that stakeholder misinformation toolkit, because what that has shown is the need to support organisations at the front line. We've started the conversations with the WCVA, who I know you received evidence from, because what that has shown is for organisations in recent months, when at the front line of some of the views that come to them, how do you develop their capability and their response and support them. So, that's an area of work that we will be looking at over the next 12 months. That builds on the misinformation toolkit that we've done in recent months, working with our partners, because of that recognition that those that are at the front line, that are dealing with these issues, they need some support, both from Government and their organisations, and how do you actually support the third sector organisations to do that. So, that's one of the areas that we're looking at. But, clearly, the input from this committee and the review will feed into any further actions that we can take.

Can I just bring in Jane Dodds? 

A really quick question. Diolch yn fawr iawn. It's just to follow that up, if I may. We heard from the Welsh Refugee Council, for example, that they hadn't been included in meetings that were organised after the Southport killings and, sadly, the subsequent riots. So, it's just really ensuring that the key people are invited and included in those really important stakeholder events. I just want reassurance that that will not happen again.

Absolutely. With the Southport events last summer, we did reach out to organisations who really were at the front line. I certainly had meetings, and then we met also with partners who had responsibility, like the chief constables and police and crime commissioners. I would say that we have got a very close working relationship with all of these organisations, and the Welsh Refugee Council particularly, who were then targeted, in January, as you know—a completely new set of circumstances arising with Elon Musk and the outrageous attacks on the Welsh Refugee Council.

I think, John, you were meeting with them over that weekend when there were threats to their office and we offered funding. I was going to add to the point that John made earlier on that one of the most important things that we must do as a Government is respond quickly and flexibly with funding, with support and with training. And as a result of the situation that affected the Welsh Refugee Council—and I think you've mentioned this, Andrew—we're now looking at training and guidance for third sector organisations, working with WCVA on this.

That needs to look at cyber as well as physical threats, because these came through cyber threats, didn't they, these threats to the Welsh Refugee Council. I remember talking to the chief executive the day after this had happened and the fear for the staff but also volunteers and the users of the Welsh Refugee Council were deep and profound. So, we would hope that we would reach everybody.

One of the interesting things about Southport, of course, is that it happened in the summer holidays and it was very difficult. I remember going to a meeting in Butetown about the fact that schoolchildren weren't at school, the school wasn't there to be a place of safety. In particular, many Muslim families didn't feel that they could use some of the holiday facilities and go out with their children.

So, there was an impact from Southport—no question about it—in Wales, and we did try and reach out to all of the third sector and particularly those who were supporting refugee organisations at the time. But I think, actually, we've got to help develop those tools, haven't we, for our community leaders, and of course, so many of those at the forefront of supporting sanctuary seekers are in the third sector, many volunteers. So, they're absolutely at the forefront of working together with our Welsh refugee coalition.

Very good. Back to you, Sioned.

Thank you very much for that question. Of course, discrimination and harassment against all people is totally unacceptable. We're talking particularly about people with protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010. That's where we are implementing our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' and our LGBTQ+ action plan, and working with our faith communities forum. That's something that we did in the summer; the faith communities forum hadn't been able to meet, particularly because of the situation in the middle east, but they came together to look at particular concerns and fears in faith communities.

Of course, then we did do a lot of work in publicising our Wales Hate Support Centre, which is run by Victim Support, trying to encourage people to report hate incidents, which is crucial in terms of just getting an understanding of the impact and supporting those people. But, every step of the way, we are seeking to implement not just the plans and policies, but also encouraging people to come forward to report on that hate crime with the Wales Hate Support Centre. And also, there's the stakeholder misinformation toolkit, we're talking to the police about their responsibilities to make sure that their hate crime officers are there, that people feel confident that they can report to the police. I know it’s not devolved, but we're working very closely with our police and crime commissioners and our policing partnership board.

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned. As I said earlier on, of course, we’re learning more and more, aren’t we, about information vacuums, misinformation, and then it just opens up a gap, a space for the far right, and working very closely with Hope Not Hate and other organisations, including Professor Matt Williams as well from Cardiff University. There is an issue about jagged edge here, probably, in terms of responsibilities. Crime and justice aren’t responsibilities devolved to the Welsh Government, but I’ve already mentioned many ways in which we’re working in partnership with our policing colleagues. Primarily responsible, though, is the UK Government, and, of course, the Home Office is leading on counter-extremism. We’re contributing views though to the UK Government all the time.

I think I mentioned, earlier on, the fact that we do have that link to the UK Government special interest group on countering extremism. And we work also with the National Police Chiefs' Council's national community tension and hate crime gold group. So, those are key platforms for us to be involved in. But we also need to educate them about what’s happening in Wales, because we are responsible for community cohesion. Any extremist rhetoric of any kind we have to deal with and we have to draw attention to it. So, yes, I think that is important. We are learning, aren’t we, about how to deal with the far right, and I’m sure you’ve taken quite a bit of evidence about that. Hope Not Hate are helping us, advising us; More in Common, British Future as well. So, we want to seek guidance as well. But when it happens, we know it’s the online—that’s what’s driving it.

That is very much the network of intelligence, which is very local and informal through the community cohesion co-ordinators. Yes, you get monthly reports, don’t you, from the community cohesion co-ordinators, but we’re daily in contact when there are tensions emerging. And also, of course, this relates to the Welsh Local Government Association and our local authorities, who are also seeing where there are particular issues or tensions arising, and, indeed, just recognising the police will be informing us. We have a police liaison unit in the Welsh Government. I meet with the lead police and crime commissioner regularly—Dafydd Llywelyn, at the present time. So, we are constantly in touch with each other, but unfortunately, the evidence keeps coming, doesn’t it?

All right, we need to move on, because we've only got half an hour left, so we need to be succinct in our questions and in our answers. Mick Antoniw.

I'd just like to ask a few things about the community cohesion programme. You've already given a bit of information, and commented on the programme and on the programme organisers working together collaboratively. Some of the evidence we've had, of course, though, has suggested that there's a lack of consistency across the regional areas. What are your thoughts on that? Is that an issue? Is it one that's being addressed?

Well, I met with the community cohesion co-ordinators, as I said. I won't repeat what I said, but it was a very collaborative meeting and they're very closely in touch with each other. Clearly, what comes through is that there are different—. They related to me some of the tensions that they were dealing with in their communities. It's not something I'd want to air and share today, but in every different part of Wales there will be different tensions, issues and needs.

I was very impressed by the way that they were working together and learning from each other, driven in part by our consistency in our funding and the fact that we've got small grants. Can I just say, Chair, that I'd like to share the latest list of grants that have been given, because actually it shows some really good things, which I haven't got time to talk about, that they're doing? They mentioned this, and they said, 'You know, having a grant that can actually open up an opportunity for sports or cultural activity in the community has made a huge difference.' So, we've got no particular, strong evidence of this variation. There will be variation in the way that they deliver their services.

Thank you for that. I've seen the list of small grants, so perhaps I'll make a comment on that in just a moment, very quickly. Diverse Cymru, in 2021-22, suggested reviewing the regional structure. Is what we have now a consequence of those reviews, or has the issue of reviews been carried out?

[Inaudible]—Diverse Cymru, an independent review of our community cohesion programme. There wasn't a particular view about better grouping. It's always an issue, isn't it, in Wales, whom you group with at a regional level? We haven't had any more representations or seen a rationale—a strong rationale—for changing existing arrangements.

Thank you. One of the issues, of course, is you mentioned in your 2025-26 paper that each region is going to receive £200,000 to fund a regional community cohesion co-ordinator, up to three officers, et cetera, and activities, and you mentioned again about small grants. We know that there are certain areas that are far more intensely at risk of flash points and so on; I know I have one or two in my constituency, and we're well aware of areas where there have been flash points in the past. Is there a capacity for the focusing of extra resources in those areas where there's more likely to be flash points, or is it basically the case that the co-operation between groups and co-ordinators is sufficiently flexible to avoid the need for, I suppose, more focused funding and support?

Well, thank you for that question. I think it is important, and I'm sure you would agree that consistency in terms of level of funding, you know, is fair and equitable to the community cohesion regions, because they all have got differing needs and community tensions. I have to say, this can be very much in a rural area as well as, as we know, in an urban area. But I think John Davies has actually indicated that where there has been a specific need, then we can bring the resources in, like we've said. I mean, in Llanelli—a healing problem—we've offered resources, we've offered funding and training, so we would step in. And, of course, the small grants scheme—I don't think you've probably seen the latest list of grant awards, which we'll share with you—is critical for those kinds of particular needs that might arise in a community.

Cabinet Secretary, if I could just add—

I've seen the latest list. 

Oh good.

I suppose, a lot of the small grants, the various projects and so on, is there a particular strategy for focusing those in particular areas, or is it dependent on the quality of the bid and the requests that are made?

Well, I'll bring John in, but my understanding is that they make the decisions. We don't make the decisions about the small grants, they're very much done locally and regionally. John, did you want to say something about accessing additional resources?

Yes, I guess I was just going to add that we've also demonstrated that we will—we have done that already. We did that with the Ely and Caerau community plan as well, where we added resources in where there was a particular need, and we would absolutely do that again if needed. But I think it's also worth just reflecting on the fact that the consistent level of funding means that, where there isn't a current flash point, it allows that local community cohesion team to do preventative work to prevent it becoming a flash point. I think it's really important that we don't just chase where is the current tension, but we do that work to make sure that they don't pop up everywhere around Wales.

Yes, really important.

Thank you.

Thanks very much. Julie Morgan, would you like to come in?

Diolch and prynhawn da. I just wanted to ask you a bit about leadership—and you have covered this already, so I don't know if you've got any more to add—because some of these issues are not devolved, obviously, you have to have a leadership with the UK Government and the Welsh Government. So, what role do you see the Welsh Government playing? I know you've spoken about your links with the UK Government Ministers, but could you say a bit more about how the Welsh Government can lead in this area?

This co-chaired nation of sanctuary strategic oversight board—long title—that's us working closely with local government, co-chairing with the leader of Monmouthshire council, and, in fact, there are invitations to both Dame Angela Eagle and Lord Khan to those meetings, from the UK Government, and policing and third sector colleagues are also at those meetings. So, that's a strategic leadership approach. Also, of course, local authorities have got cabinet members responsible for community cohesion, who I meet. There's very much a crossover with equality issues as well.

But in terms of UK Government, I think I've covered the point that I'm very keen to look at an alternative to the private sector. If we take a leadership role in supporting that as a Welsh Government, that is a really key sign of where we want to take more responsibility. It's not devolved, but it's one of those areas where we're delivering. It's actually all about integration from day one, and a nation of sanctuary. I hope, in terms of the evidence you've had, it did appear that, in the reviews of what happened in Southport, there was acknowledgement about our consistency with community cohesion support, and also our commitment to a nation of sanctuary. People said that to me in the summer. You don't want to gloss over the deep discomfort and experiences of racism that people had in the summer, but we're sticking to those values.

Thank you for that. And in terms of the cohesion strategy, are you planning to update that in view of all that's happened during this period?

We believe the way we're delivering community cohesion, the funding, the fact that it is linked to the well-being of future generations, so that there are the indicators, the 50 indicators, demonstrating what this means in terms of actually the outcomes on community cohesion, I think this all fits well. I think we may need to—. We're looking forward to seeing what the committee comes through with, but we feel we don't want another strategy. We don't think that. We've got to perhaps refresh—

Refresh, yes. That's what I meant.

—and make more transparent what we've got.

One thing I wanted to say was that, for example, we get work plans from community cohesion co-ordinators. Would you be interested if we shared some work plans with you to see what they're doing? It is about not reinventing the wheel. We know we've got the basic structure, we've got the partnerships, and we've got the funding as well, and we just need to make sure that you can see what they're doing and see what the outcomes are much more clearly.

Thank you. And then, finally, quite a few witnesses asked for more to be done to measure and monitor social cohesion, which you already referred to earlier on, and to measure and monitor community tensions, particularly at a local level. I think you have referred to the attitudes survey. Is there anything more that you could plan to do to monitor at a local level? 

Well, as I said, we've got the well-being of future generations, we've got the national survey, and we're waiting for the outcome of the latest national survey later this year. But I think the fact that we've got the well-being of future generations, the fact that we need to report on the well-being plan every year, we have ways of monitoring and showing the outcomes. 

One of the things that we are going to do on a four-nations basis is to work together to look at the definitions of community cohesion. You've called it social cohesion, and I understand that—. In fact, in Westminster, there is another inquiry taking place. The Women and Equalities Committee is doing a review on community cohesion, so it would be really interesting to see the ways we come together. But there's a four-nations call coming up shortly where we're going to look at shared definitions, measurement of frameworks and cohesion-related matters across the UK. Of course, that would be really useful to engage with Scotland, the Scottish Government, as well as with ourselves and the UK Government. 

On measuring cohesion, I think we do go back to—. Over half of the well-being indicators measure things that matter to cohesive communities under 'a Wales of cohesive communities'. There's a whole list here, and I won't go into it all. But you know that the annual report by the chief statistician for Wales is useful in looking at the Wales of cohesive communities goal.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Sioned Williams, you wanted to come back in.

Thank you. Diolch, Sioned. You know that we've got a community asset commission in place. It's in partnership with Ystadau Cymru, and that's following the work done by the Local Government and Housing Committee looking into these issues, and I think their report is coming out shortly—from the commission. They were looking at buildings, land and natural assets. And also, we do have, of course, the community assets transfer best practice guide, and some good case studies there. And so, we'll hear the commission's recommendations, but I do note the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales also made this recommendation too, in terms of the community right to buy. So, I'm going to be very interested in looking at this. I think it's very positive for us to move forward on this.

Can I say about one of the most impressive examples of community resilience and cohesion, which I saw in Gwynedd? I mention it in my written statement. It's Cymunedoli Cyf, where they have, through community assets transfer, but also using the community facilities programme, bought up a lot of public buildings, and they now employ people and run services. This is a really good demonstration of what can be done.

Well, I'm very positive about it. I think we need to wait and see, but I think that's why this commission was set up, and I do welcome the future generations commissioner's recommendation. Then it is, obviously, for colleagues and the Government to look at this.

Well, the action, I think, that's been taken has been to develop the community asset transfer best practice guide. I also fund WCVA to help with the community assets loans, and in fact we are increasing that funding and also providing capital funding through the community facilities programme. So, I don't think it has delayed the acquisition of buildings through resource, but now we need to see whether this is an option that should be taken forward.

That's really important, but we are, as I said in the paper, taking first steps in developing a communities policy, and we asked some public services boards to pilot a way forward. I think a communities policy has to be co-produced with communities, with our Wales Council for Voluntary Action, which we fund. I know WCVA and the Building Communities Trust are really supportive of this. I think this is something where we—. It's about empowering communities; it's bound to lead to better community cohesion. It is important that it's part of the First Minister's objectives in terms of thriving and connected communities. So, it's a starting point, but I think also, interestingly, the work—I haven't had time to mention the work in Caerau and Ely—was a real example, we have got a bit of a case study there, of how the community decided how they wanted to respond to the tragic events in Ely. They came together. We provided the funding, substantial funding, and we had a community reference group, and they said, ‘We need more money for children and young people.’ That was there. They came forward with the ingredients that they felt would make a change in Ely, and now it's being implemented, that plan. So, this cannot be top-down; this has to be a community policy that we start from the grass roots.

Okay. Can we come to Altaf Hussain? We've covered some of the issues around social media, but I think the comments from Oldham Council are meaningful.

Absolutely. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. How is the Welsh Government responding to the rise of freedom-restricting harassment? We have seen recent attacks on the Welsh Refugee Council following online misinformation, as well as attacks on women's rights groups following the Supreme Court ruling on sex. What support are you providing organisations and individuals who have faced harassment and abuse? 

Thank you very much. I answered earlier on a point about exacerbated hate crime, particularly affecting vulnerable groups, but also those with protected characteristics. I hope—. Well, you will have seen my written statement that I produced in answer to questions in terms of the impact of the Supreme Court decision, and reaching out in terms of compassion and understanding and awareness and responding to representations, which I have been, and meeting all of those affected—that's also very much a cross-Government response as well.

I think this does lead us to the fact that there are things happening almost daily, aren't there, which can cause—? And if it's fuelled by misinformation, then you don't know where it's going to land. So, we have got to—. But then we do have to ensure, with our responsibilities, that we're working closely with Ofcom and the Hope Not Hate campaign, which has been very successful and which people have responded to.

Cabinet Secretary, in your written evidence you say further work is intended in 2025-26 to equip community leaders with tools to navigate difficult conversations and misinformation. What should this work entail, and given the real damage this is doing to our communities, what is the timeline and your priority? 

That, again, is—. I think we've covered the misinformation toolkit, which we will share with you, Chair, and the factchecker as well. But also I think this is about the fact we're now talking about more training and understanding of how we should address this. We're talking with local government, with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, with the third sector, because I think the third sector can find itself to be particularly vulnerable because they also don't know how this would impact on them at a community level, or if they're helping and supporting a particular group.

So, this is also all about integration, community cohesion, sanctuary, working together. It's interesting that—. I know the small grants are small grants, but they're funding sport, cultural activities that bring people together, and you'll see in the last lot of small grants that they're funding conferences that bring people together. In Pembrokeshire, I met recently with Pembroke Dock Town Council, which has got an ethnic minority leader, and he is, actually, with the Pembrokeshire community council, influencing the county council and One Voice Wales, having a huge impact. Valleys Ethnic Minority Support, supported by Mick Antoniw—three teams took part in a cricket match, South Wales Police, Merthyr Malayali Cultural Association and Valleys Ethnic Minority Support, and that was a really successful event—it's annual now—in Pontypridd. There are these ways in which we—. Small things, actually, can make quite a difference.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Now, we did talk about Oldham Council. They told us that committee there is in discussion with the UK Government about how a response to disinformation can be co-ordinated centrally. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government on this issue?

Regular conversations, I think, probably also at official level as well, which is really important to keep up with your colleagues, particularly in the Home Office. I don't know if you can give an example. You do feed into these online hate and strategic groups, don't you?

Yes. So, we have regular engagement on a UK-wide basis around counter-extremism threats, around hate and community tensions, threats across the UK. They're two-way opportunities. So, sometimes it'll be us contributing something to a wider UK conversation about raising awareness of a threat. Sometimes, we'll be learning about tensions—for example, this week around India and Pakistan, and what might the impact be in communities. So, it's a two-way vehicle for us to make sure that we're aware and can do something about some of those threats.

I think talking about the jagged-edge issues, though, is quite important when we talk about disinformation specifically, where people have intentionally tried to stir up things in the community. Countering that kind of narrative is not devolved to us, so we do have to work carefully with UK Government as much as we can, but they ultimately have the responsibility around that aspect of things, particularly when we talk about foreign actors or online platforms and what they might be doing around that.

Chair, may I ask a last question? In your paper, you say attempts to work directly with the tech platforms to tackle online hate and disinformation have not been successful to date. Could you tell us what conversations you have had and why it has not been successful?

Thank you very much. I think I said earlier on that we don't have the regulatory powers, and, probably, in terms of the Welsh user base, we're a small size in terms of influencing social media companies, who we have sought to influence. I mentioned Professor Matt Williams, the director of HateLab and head of criminology at Cardiff University. We commissioned him to have discussions with social media companies last year, to build links with the companies, and we talked to the third sector before those conversations took place. And just to say, Meta, TikTok, Twitter/X, Google, YouTube were invited to participate. Twitter/X and Google responded, but, since then, X has rolled back its safety features, since those meetings. Meta failed to respond to the invitation. TikTok claimed to already have a history of engagement with Welsh Government, which we couldn't corroborate. We still engage with Google, YouTube, but none of the other platforms have engaged positively with us. So, this vacuum of responsibility and regulatory implementation of regulations, which Ofcom now—. They've got to build those better links, and they've got new responsibilities in terms of online harms and media literacy.

Okay. Thank you for putting that on the record—I think that's important. Mick Antoniw, can you come in now, on—?

Yes. Just one final point: obviously, the link between social cohesion and participation in democratic structures is an important one, and we know that, in some areas, the greater the, I suppose, lack of social cohesion, the less participation there is in social democracy, in our democratic systems. There is the innovating democracy advisory group, and there is funding that's available. I wonder if perhaps you could just tell us your thoughts on how that might contribute to this overall discussion that we're having.

Yes. That is something that is being taken forward by Jayne Bryant, particularly; I think you might have communicated with her. There is a real opportunity. I feel that there are opportunities in terms of Senedd reform here. We've not only got the automatic registration of voters, we've got the 16- to 17-year-olds voting. We've got grants that are being made available as well in terms of democratic engagement. I also think that our diversity and inclusion guidance is important, because we are seeking a diverse Senedd, and more representation from Wales as a whole. So, I think if—. And we've also got this new democratic engagement group, which of course you in your former role were very much engaged, following the independent commission led by Laura McAllister and Rowan Williams. So, I do think that we have got an opportunity ahead of us.

I did have a look at the Wales Centre for Public Policy paper on democratic health in Wales, and we obviously—. Democratic health is about the ballot box, but it's also about that wider citizen engagement, empowerment, participatory budgeting, gender budgeting, children's budgeting, engaging with people, and, I think, our young people. So, the fact that we fund the Politics Project—. Some of you might have been in schools where you've been questioned by young people; that's because we're funding the Politics Project. And we're funding a project to support disabled people, access to elected funds. There's a lot under the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act 2024 that you took forward, Mick Antoniw, in your former role, which will help, I think, with democratic health.

Okay. Thank you.

Okay. We recently had evidence from—I'll come back to you—the well-being of future generations commissioner, who commissions research by the Institute of Welsh Affairs on how public bodies are embracing the well-being objectives. The analysis shows that, of all five ways of working, involvement was the least prevalent in the steps. They say that—public bodies say—they haven't got the time and the money. But it seems to me that this is one of the key issues of how we can make citizens feel more engaged with the difficult decisions that all levels of government have to make, and I wondered if you could just tell us how the Welsh Government is approaching this, as well as in your conversations with other public bodies.

Well, I'm glad that the future generations commissioner has raised this. As I said earlier on, democracy isn't just about the ballot box, it's building trust in the political process, trust in democracy. As someone who was the Tenant Participation Advisory Service's first director, I believed in tenant participation. I just think it's the way forward, and I hope, actually, this is going to be—I think I've told officials, this has got to be—an absolute prerequisite of any communities policy. It has to be about—. And actually, Rowan Williams and Laura McAllister made that very clear in their independent report, so I hope that the group that's been set up will continue to help guide us.

But I also think this is about education and the fact that our children are being—. The curriculum is about ethically informed citizens, and if you go to some of our schools where they already have a Senedd, with a first minister and a deputy first minister—I'm sure you've met them, pupils in their school councils and their senedds—I think they are grasping this. And we've got to reflect that in the other generations that are responsible in their lives.

There's great work going on in schools, but within these public bodies, less than 15 per cent of their objectives were addressing the cohesive communities goal. So, we clearly have some work to do there collectively. Sioned, you wanted to briefly come in.

Just very quickly, just on the electoral reform that you mentioned the former Council General took through. Automatic registration—we know the pilots have been—will that be in place by 2026?

And the other thing I just wanted to ask was—. The other thing that's key in democracy and fostering cohesion—. You said that this is a very timely, timely inquiry. I'd just like to get your opinion on the language used by Keir Starmer this morning. Refugee charities have condemned his use of the term 'island of strangers'. So, I'd like to get your opinion on that.

I'm not sure on the automatic—. I thought it was going to be; I should know this. Yes. Mick says 'yes' for 2026.

Okay, great. Thank you. There's been some—

I mean, all I will say—. As the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, all I've been talking about today is a nation of sanctuary, working with and welcoming and integrating sanctuary seekers in Wales.

Thank you very much. Julie Morgan, we rather skated over the role of the voluntary sector. Is there anything you want to add, although the Cabinet Secretary has talked quite a lot about it?

I was just going to, as we all know how crucial the voluntary sector is in this work and in any other—. We did have concerns expressed to us about the fragility of the voluntary sector, and the WCVA thought that there would be mergers and closures. I just wondered if you had any comment on that and whether the Welsh Government would be planning to do anything to help with that.

Two things—. First of all, the third sector infrastructure, which includes the WCVA and the Council for Voluntary Service, are getting three-year funding, with a 7 per cent increase on last year. That's 25.8 million from 2025 to 2028. And also many of the other organisations that we're funding from Welsh Government are getting that three-year funding and an uplift of 3 per cent, all of them from my budget, which is helping with financial pressures.

The key other point is that we launched an updated code of practice for funding. We launched it two weeks ago in the Dusty Forge in Ely, and local as well as national voluntary sector people were there, who said how important it was to have more than one-year funding—not just project funding, but sustainable funding over three years. So, I hope very much the committee will back this code of practice for funding for all our public bodies to fund those, in terms of the three-year sustainable funding. And I think it's interesting. I mean, I've mentioned all the organisations—. We also fund Tempo Time Credits; they're part of this infrastructure. And also Newid, which helps with digital skills for the third sector.

Thank you.

Thanks very much. Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, and to your officials. We'll obviously send you a transcript to check over and make sure that it's accurate. Thank you very much for your attendance today.

Thank you. 

Members, we have 11 papers to note, both in the main papers and in the supplementary papers. Is there anything anybody wants to raise before we go into private session? Sioned.

Yes, I just wanted to raise, on the paper from—

Okay. I've read it carefully. So, we've got a figure that 4,000 two-year-olds will get places, but the Minister does point out that we can't simply open the doors to poor care. We have to ensure we've got the right personnel and the right buildings for safely delivering this quality nursery education.

Okay. Well, perhaps we can seek some advice from the Research Service on this, and we can discuss that further. Unless anybody else has got anything they want to raise, can I suggest that we now—?

Well, I think we all want to see that come to an end. I think the issue is whether it should be this committee or the children's committee who should be pushing forward on that. Jane Dodds.

I was going to support Sioned in that first issue around Flying Start, but I also wanted to raise that issue too. I'd like to ask two things, if I may. One is: has the Welsh Government the powers to prohibit it here in Wales, and to ensure that other ways of going about this are used? So, obviously, we can see in the recommendations from the children's legal centre that they want to stop them altogether, and to have in place less invasive ways. I'd like to know, perhaps—. I don't know if our legal people can advise us, or take that away. I'd also like to support Sioned's position. I feel it is our committee, possibly with the children's committee as well, but it is about rights, and it is about a complete injustice in that we know that, sadly, most children who are strip-searched are those from black and minority ethnic groups. So, it's definitely an issue around social justice. Thank you.

Okay. Julie Morgan.

I was going to raise the issue about the fact that it is black and minority ethnic groups who are disproportionately affected. So, I do think there is a role for our committee.

I think it has a role, definitely. I fear we don't have the powers. I'm sure it sits on the jagged edge of the justice system, but there will be an opportunity to question all the relevant people at next Monday's meeting when we are having sessions with both the Welsh Minister and the UK Minister.

Sorry, Chair, could we just be clear from our own internal researchers that we don't have the powers? There's no point in us pursuing it if we don't. Thank you.

No, I agree. We will seek advice from our legal advisers and from the Research Service to go with the meeting papers for next week, but there's nobody in the room who's able to make that clarification at the moment.

Can we now agree, under Standing Order 17.42, to exclude the public from the rest of the meeting?