Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Thank you for inviting us to be here this morning. I think there are a few things I'd want to talk about. Obviously, we have in place what is quite a comprehensive engagement architecture at the moment, and I think we've talked about it previously at this committee. That does include a whole range of stakeholders. I'll name them, because I think it's worth doing so. We've got trade unions, local authorities and corporate joint committees, the Association of Transport Co-ordinating Officers, Welsh Local Government Association, passenger representatives, the Community Transport Association and operators and their operator representatives, which I think is a really important part of the architecture that we've got.

There is a degree to which I think it would be inappropriate for us to have given out all of the detail and solved all of the problems before the Senedd had, in fact, had chance to scrutinise the Bill and look through it. I think the other part of it is that we have set our stall out to work collaboratively with stakeholders, whether they're operators or local authorities, to define that detail. The other part of that as well is that, with the key stakeholders, the local authorities and operators, what we have said to them is, 'These are all the challenges that we see, please tell us if you think we've captured all of them'. And then secondly, 'What are your priorities in terms of resolving those issues?' So, we've actually sought, from the stakeholders, views on what their priorities are in terms of them moving into the detail.

So, I guess, in summary, in terms of getting into that detail, we've asked them to help us to work out where to focus first. And then the second thing is that we are working collaboratively with them to iron out that detail, which I think is absolutely the right thing to do, and to take some time and some effort, which we are investing in that journey. And then, over the summer, particularly with the SMEs, we plan to do a whole series of one-to-ones again, just to reassure them and to tackle any concerns or issues that they might have.

We'll come back to the SMEs particularly later on, I'm sure. But does this not reflect the fact that it is a framework Bill, and the level of detail, maybe, in terms of the operational side, which is what most stakeholders are probably looking for, isn't there? And maybe that is causing additional confusion and concern, because it's there for people to read into it what they wish, and maybe that isn't necessarily what you and the Government and others are taking from it.

I think, actually, the framework is the really useful part of it. The framework enables us to tailor the approach so that what we get is something that's developed in Wales for Wales.

Okay, fine. Thank you. We visited greater Manchester a little while ago as a committee and the biggest takeaway from us there was the scale of the challenge, and the transition from the previous way of working to the proposed new way of working. So, tell us a little bit about how you're making sure that Transport for Wales is equipped to deal with that whole massive programme, and how you're managing risks around that. And specifically, maybe, whether you've engaged with Manchester and what lessons you're learning from there about the challenges, of course, that they faced as predecessors, if you like, or those who've gone through this process.

No problem. If I start with the internal governance, because I think the internal governance is really important. Obviously, we have our board who regularly review progress. The focus of where we get most closely scrutinised, for want of a better word, is through our major projects committee. That committee is chaired by Vernon Everitt, and Vernon takes a really keen interest in what we're doing there and has been incredibly helpful for those connections to Manchester, which I'll touch on a little bit later.

Manchester have been really open and honest with us, and we've had conversations with them on quite a regular basis around all sorts of areas, including people, customer technology, fleets, depots, electrification. They've been spectacularly open and really helpful on helping us to understand what the pitfalls might be. And then, just on top of that, and I guess for the panel's awareness, we've also engaged with one of the team from Transport for Greater Manchester, who's helping us now, particularly around the business change aspects of franchising and what that might mean. So, there's a whole raft of things that we're able to do.

I guess the second thing is that, from a Transport for Wales perspective and the change that is involved, as I've previously mentioned at this committee, we've got a whole range of skills within Transport for Wales, from people who have worked in operator environments, people who have worked in local government, and then, for want of a better word, generic skills around things like customer, procurement, people, HR. We've grown that and that model will be used to support franchising as we go through.

I guess the final bit of it is that, certainly from my perspective, if we talk about the bus system in Wales, the bus system in Wales relies on all of the partners within that system to work together to deliver it. The aspiration that we have is that, as we bring franchising in and we grow for the benefit of the passengers and the people of Wales, actually, everybody is intended to play their part and it's a proper partnership with everybody working together, because that's the only way that it'll work. So, we will absolutely do our part, and are geared up to do that, but want it to feel like it's a proper partnership as well.

Thank you. I'd echo your comments about the team at greater Manchester. They were very accommodating of us as a committee as well, and transparent and thorough in their engagement with us, in fairness. Diolch yn fawr. Carolyn.

The Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 is a major concern for stakeholders in Wales. I know in north Wales it really is tied up with public bus transport as well, and delivers both. It doesn't feature particularly in the Bill, the learner travel Measure, so how in practice are you ensuring that franchise contracts direct the importance of public bus services for school transport? Can you foresee any disadvantages of not including it specifically in the Bill? Just that, initially, please.

For me, it's about network planning. If I use the south-west as an example, because I think it illustrates the way that we've worked with the local authorities on this issue, we worked with them to develop what we refer to as the base network, and we looked at how well that accommodated learner travel. We then went around the loop again and looked at closed school transport services and basically said, 'Are there any ways in which we can enhance and develop this network that will mean that we can encourage fewer closed school transport services and more schoolchildren to use the public transport network?', and indeed we went through that loop a second time. Equally, in terms of where we've worked on the bridge to franchising as well with Powys, we've done the same process with the TrawsCymru services. Essentially, we're looking at how do we optimise the public transport network so that we are able to carry as many schoolchildren as possible through that network and minimise the closed school services, obviously recognising that that is also a mainstay for SMEs.

Which leads me on to my second question. School transport is delivered by a lot of our SMEs, it's their bread and butter. We have a lot of SMEs in Wales as well, and I know that they are concerned about this. So, how can we ensure that we can continue to support SMEs to keep delivering school transport, but also be able to apply for these franchises as well to help keep them going, basically, with there being so many of them? We know that they struggle with expertise in applying for even school transport sometimes—some of the contracts that come out. They've got to make sure they've got policies in place as well, and health and safety, and all sorts of different things. It can be really difficult. How are you going to try and address that? When we try to deliver school transport, every single SME is needed just to make sure that the children get to school in Wales, so we don't want to lose any of them at all.

I'll start on that, if that's okay, and then I'll bring Richard in just to talk a little bit more about some more of the detail. First and foremost, to echo, I absolutely agree that SMEs are the mainstay of the bus market in Wales. In fact, we absolutely want to create a market for everyone, and a thriving market. Supporting SMEs, both in terms of engagement and the way in which we're working, has been a mainstay of our approach. That dialogue with SMEs is ongoing, but perhaps I can invite Richard to say a little bit more about the work that we're doing.

Thank you. As Lee said, it's a real focus for us, making sure that the way we franchise creates space for both large operators and SMEs. And of course we're thinking about community transport a lot as well, what they offer as a local bus service, and how they might be able to bid themselves. They probably have similar challenges to smaller SMEs.

This is probably an area where we've really welcomed the engagement from SMEs themselves, and we're just starting to get into the detail. But if I just talk briefly about where we are in south-west Wales, where our thinking is more developed, because we have designed the network, working with the local authorities, and we've now started with the local authorities again to work out how might we actually what we've been calling 'package'—so, how might we take that and contract for it. In there, we've got packages as small as two buses, for example. So, we're really focused on making sure there are contracts that will be really accessible for SMEs.

Earlier this week, I was in Carmarthen, where we were doing an engagement session. We had a really helpful number of SMEs who were really clear in their needs, which is really useful, and were very clear that, for example, 'If there's a 10-bus package, I'm not interested, I can't, I haven't got the scale, and I don't want to cope with that.' That engagement and understanding of what will be suitable is really important. We absolutely are designing it, and we're starting to get into the detail, I think, that hopefully will reassure them.

Excellent, because we did hear that they'd bent over backwards in Manchester to try and keep the SMEs, but they hadn't succeeded. And, obviously, we're disproportionately more dependent on SMEs. 

I agree, and I think it's probably fair to say there are areas of Wales where essentially larger operators would really struggle, because they're small numbers of buses, small depots. It really needs the SMEs to stay there. And, as you said, they've got mixed businesses, they run local bus services, maybe they provide coach services for people, et cetera, as well, and we need to sustain all of that.

That's a good point. It works both ways in some contexts, you're right.

I think what's also encouraging in this space is that the SME market in Wales is really well established. So, it's really helpful to be able to work with what is actually quite an established market as well.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you. Janet, we'll come to you.

Thank you. Good morning, Lee and Richard. How, in practice, are you ensuring that passenger interests are protected in delivery of this Bill? How will you handle complaints and compensation during the franchise operations? And how will you ensure you're communicating and engaging with passengers themselves at all stages, not just consultation with representative bodies, in the development of this plan?

I'll pick that up. I already mentioned that we already have passenger representatives within our engagement framework, which is really helpful. Obviously, we need to go beyond that, and we are. If I draw experience from the work that we do on TrawsCymru, we already handle complaints for TrawsCymru, and we already have a well-established engagement framework. So, it is not uncommon for members of the team to be in different parts of Wales engaging with the public to understand exactly what it is that they want from their service. Clearly, we can't always deliver everything that everybody's looking for, but actually hearing that voice is really important.

We already have within TfW a bilingual contact centre, which deals with issues both in terms of rail and bus, and, indeed, the Fflecsi service. And looking to the future, we want to put in place something that will enable passengers to give real-time feedback on their service experience through an app, or something of that nature. And then, maybe, I don't know, Richard, if you want to add something, because we have launched—it's publicly available—a consultation document for the south-west, which, as we've said, if where we're more advanced. Perhaps Richard could—

And will that be replicated when you come to—? 

Yes, it will indeed.

At the moment, we've used our existing platform, which the business already uses, Have your Say, and we asked the panels on there what are they most interested in in terms of engagement around the local bus network. And then, we've used that to build the engagement commitment that we published earlier this month. That's focused on the south-west, because that's where we're more developed and, in terms of our planning, is first, but we'll replicate that process through the rest of Wales as we progress. 

Thank you. Community transport services can continue to operate outside the new local bus service regime. How are you going to support those services? 

The Community Transport Association would recognise, when I say this—I've said it before—100 per cent we see community transport as part of the one network, part of 'One network, one timetable, one ticket'. I think that's really important, and the Community Transport Association are hugely supportive of that ambition. The Community Transport Association are part of the bus industry panel, so they're part of that engagement framework, and we're essentially in relatively constant dialogue with the Community Transport Association, looking at probably three things.

One is how do we understand in more detail their network, so it does form naturally part of the 'one network' ambition. The second is where can we provide data, information, passenger flows et cetera to support community transport ambitions. And then the third is essentially around how do we make sure that information to passengers is communicated and all of that is part of one system, so that if your journey entails partly a bus under public transport, partly community transport, maybe even rail, you can see that in one place and you're able to make that seamless journey. So we are fully engaged with community transport and wanting to facilitate growth in that sector to support the 'one network' ambitions.

How in practice are you reflecting the objectives in section 4 of the Bill in your approach to implementation? Are there any objectives you are unclear on, or additional areas you believe should be included? 

I'll bring Richard in on this again, but I think from our perspective, those objectives are really well articulated under the overall banner of 'One network, one timetable, one ticket', and that's how it's encapsulated.

In terms of when we're considering the network, we're really focused on how we measure that, and three different metrics that we're developing. So we're looking at access, which is is there a network that you can access. That’s typically measured by do you live within 400m of at least an hourly bus service. We're looking at the opportunity that that network provides you, so what can you reach, how many job opportunities, how many leisure opportunities, school as well would be part of that, retail et cetera. And also connectivity, so how do the different modes interconnect to really expand that opportunity for people and make it easier for people to move bus to bus or bus to rail or rail to bus et cetera. That's a real benefit of us being able to think multimodally as Transport for Wales. We think that really helps us focus on how we meet those objectives.

Are there any objectives that you would like to add? In evidence we heard, for example, that quality of service and an improved passenger experience should be an objective. Or another one was—. What was the other one I wanted to reference?

Passenger information, for example?

Yes. Diversity of market providers as well—SMEs. Should that be an objective? I'm just wondering whether you think there's scope to broaden it out a bit.

There's nothing that we would add. I think in the ways that we're working we would inherently pick those things up anyway. I think that's really important.

Okay. There we are. Lovely. Diolch yn fawr. Carolyn, back to you.

The objectives are really good to ensure that as many people as possible can use bus transport and get it, but at the moment I'm just wondering, because there's concern about the cost and how we're going to implement it as well, so can you outline how you are developing the bus network in practice now? For example, in south-west Wales, where you're starting. And in particular, how in practice will you apply the Bill’s consultation requirements? There is concern about raising expectation, and I know in Manchester they looked to adopt the existing network first of all, making sure that that's all in place. Because that's quite complicated, as you know, making sure that we've got operators on board and drivers before growing it. So I'm just wondering how in practice are you developing the bus network plan now. And consultation. 

Let me pick that up, and again, if Richard wants to jump in. I have put on record before, and I would like to put on record again, that the south-west authorities have been absolutely brilliant to work with, and incredibly helpful and incredibly open to them being the first region that we seek to franchise in. So I just wanted to say thank you for that.

With the south-west, first and foremost we went to them and talked about did they want to start with a blank sheet of paper in terms of their network or did they want to focus on their existing network and understand how that could be shaped and developed in line with the principles that we've all agreed that we'd work to. They chose the latter, so to a large extent, and I think for reasons of not causing too much change and chaos, starting with their existing network is really helpful, and that's what we plan to do.

We then, from a financial perspective, worked within the existing funding envelope. That existing funding envelope comprises the money that the Welsh Government put into the region plus the money that the individual authorities choose to put in from their revenue support grant. So, we've used that as the financial basis on which to build the network. We then developed with them, and in partnership with them, the base network. Alongside that, we also developed an aspirational network, and we understand broadly what we think that base network and what that aspirational network might cost, and it is the base network that we will take out to public consultation.

So, at the beginning of July through to the end of September—23 September, I think it is—we are going out with public consultation through some of the means that Richard talked about, which is our online system. But there is also a series of face-to-face and public engagements throughout that whole period. And again, part of the reason why we chose that period of time is to make sure that we also pick up some of the seasonal variations that that region will experience—places like Pembrokeshire, the Gower—during the consultation. So, the hope is that we will not only pick up the people that live in that region, but also some of the visitors to that region as well through that consultation.

And it is extensive. So, we would also include in that universities, education settings, to make sure that we are picking up the full suite of voices, and they will have a period of 12 weeks to comment. Just to pick up on Janet's point as well, we will repeat that process, with any learning that we take, for each of the regions as we go along as well.

Do you know roughly how many transport routes—? I can imagine, just to put it into perspective, it's probably about 400, I reckon, for Pembrokeshire—300 or 400. It's very complicated, isn't it? So, just to understand the amount of work that has to go into this. 

Yes. Yes, so, in terms of—. You'll know more about the scale of the network.

I was going to say 200 routes—

Two hundred.

But I suspect I'm—

I think with school, it's about—.

That would make sense. So, we've got—. And we're trying to frame the engagement in a very helpful way for people. One of the tools we're using actually does allow people to interact with the map, so that they can zoom in and look at the routes that will be specifically of interest to them. So, we're looking very much at how we do that. And obviously, especially for the face-to-face engagement, we're developing network maps so that we can have them with us when we're—. I think we're planning, currently, 12 sessions across south-west Wales. So, when we're face to face in that engagement, we'll also have the network maps with us too. So, yes. But I think that's the challenge of scale, isn't it, the nature of it.

[Inaudible.] Many older people use the service, don't they? So, that's why we need to do it in person as well, hopefully, you know.

Yes, we are doing it in person, yes. 

Good. Okay, thank you. 

There we are. Oh, sorry, yes.

And then just moving on to the next question, if that's okay. So, how will you keep the plan under review and revise it? What will the processes look like, going back to the Bill now, generally?

I'm going to sound like a stuck record here, but holding in sight 'One network, one timetable, one ticket'—and I think that's really important—and taking an aside slightly from franchising, one of the things that we're looking at, and actually sits with me within Transport for Wales, is how do we work on a regional basis to work with the corporate joint committees to furnish them with the information that they need to make short-, medium- and long-term strategic decisions. It's almost—. Our vision is that we would have, at some point, a multimodal, multi-partner advisory panel that's looking at immediate, short-, medium-, and long-term challenges.

So, immediate might be, 'Well, there's a road closed, we need to divert the bus', so, what does that look like in terms of sharing information with passengers. Short term will definitely involve things like, 'This is how the network is performing'—and I'd go beyond the bus network to the entire network—'and we would recommend these changes.' Medium term might look like, 'Well, we all know the rail timetable changes every six months, so how do we make sure that the integrity of the system is maintained?' And then long term is probably going to look at things like, 'What are the long-term rail objectives? Things that take much longer, what's the investment required in that sort of infrastructure?', so that we seek to work in partnership, again, with local authorities to (a) keep the integrity of the 'One network, one timetable, one ticket' system, but also to keep making steps forward and, in doing so, driving transport and thereby other things like the economy forward.

Thank you, and you're not repeating yourselves—it's really good to hear all this again, because it refreshes it with us, how you're looking at that joined-up working. Like you say, it's important to get that high-level, joined up—. It's making sure that integrated transport is fed back to local authorities as well, isn't it? So, no, it's fine. Thank you.

Great. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Okay. Joyce.

Just one other thing, and then I'll come on to contracts. Things change, don't they? You get buildings that pop up, sometimes large estates, and sometimes really important things that people need to access, like health centres et cetera. So, how flexible—? Are your plans able to respond to those changes? You'll know they're coming, mostly.

Yes. So, I think there are two parts to that. It was remiss of me not to mention it, but things like land use planning and preparation for the impacts of potential climate change, all of those things, we can plan for and be entirely flexible. Obviously, the rail network is not as flexible as the bus network, but, certainly, from the bus network, we're absolutely able to respond to those changes and, indeed, bring guidance to decision makers, to say, 'Look, this is coming online in six months' time; we need to start thinking about what that looks like.' In fact, I would say as well that, as those decisions start to be made through planning, it's just trying to really reinforce the importance of public transport being part of the decision-making process as well, which I think is key.

Okay. I'm going on to contracts. We talked about SMEs. First of all, apologies for my late arrival, but I was actually doing something else, speaking somewhere else. So, you've talked about SMEs, community transport, but they will need a level playing field alongside the major operators when it comes to ensuring they gain some of the contracts. So, how are you going to manage, or help them manage, that?

Okay. Thank you. So, again, I'll introduce it and maybe ask Richard to come in as well. I'd go back to something I said earlier. So, first and foremost, we're starting to talk to operators now about what their contracts might look like and what the content might be. So, feedback on that and the co-creation of that is really, really important. We have set our stall out to say we want the process of contracting with us to be simple and accessible. I think that's really important, particularly from an SME perspective. Also, as we get into looking at things like penalties or incentives, which is a whole other conversation topic, we want to make sure that we don't end up with any unintended consequences. Again, that's something we've picked up from other places, where we've learned that we just need to think those through and make sure that what we're driving is the overarching ambition and the objectives, in fact, set out in section 4, through those incentives and those penalties. Maybe Richard can add in on that as well.

So, I think it's absolutely core to our thinking and how we're approaching franchising. As Lee said, we've started to talk about the principles of what we think a contract might look like—incentives, et cetera—in our engagement, which includes both larger operators and SMEs. So, we're very much getting their feedback. We're structuring, or we're thinking at the moment—. I think, in fact, the south-west does have some packages that are as small as two buses—so, very focused on SMEs. Obviously, we've got to meet the requirements of the procurement regulations, et cetera, but, within those bounds, what we're thinking actually is, rather than level playing fields, it's different playing fields. We think packages that are attractive to large operators and those that are attractive to small operators, in some respects, are really quite different. An obvious one is just size: so, it's likely that a lot of larger operators simply wouldn't be interested in the two-bus packages. It's just not worth—. It's not a business they're that interested in. So, we see that we can actually really have quite distinct offerings that are really focused on where the SME market is and how we can ensure that SME market continues to thrive.

One of the key parts of the franchise contracts will be performance standards. You've indicated that in your paper. So, what are you learning—because you said you've talked to people—and how is this changing the approach towards those contracts?

So, there's a couple of things in there. The ambition is that we'd set some common base for performance standards across the whole of the network. That will not just be in terms of service offer, but, if I add 'one team' to the end of 'One network, one timetable, one ticket', that's in terms of how the look and feel of the offer applies—the driver, the standard of the vehicle that you're on, how it's driven, all of those sorts of things we would be looking to factor in. And again, we're in conversation with operators, both SMEs and big operators, to understand what performance standards make sense. So, do we focus on, for example, punctuality, or do we focus on cancelations? And then, what framework should we put in place that makes sense, again, from a performance—sorry, an incentive—and a penalty perspective? And I'm, again, repeating myself, but we have had good learning from Manchester and London about incentives, or penalties, in fact, that they put in, which might, in some cases, have driven the wrong behaviour if you have the passenger at the heart of what it is you're trying to achieve. So, that work's ongoing, and we're in dialogue with operators about what makes sense, but we would want that to be universally true across all operators.

Do you think or expect a difference between rural and urban areas when it comes to franchising, apart from the ones you've already mentioned?

Yes, so, I think that we are very conscious of the differences in Wales, and there are obviously stark differences between the urban and rural areas. We have in this space, again, taken some learning, actually this time from some international examples. So, Australia have done some really good work in this space. Sadly, I'm still waiting for the site visit, but not to worry. Clearly, we think a franchising model is of equal application to both rural and urban settings. I think it's probably really important to recognise and be open about the fact that rural services do tend to cost more. They tend to cost more because they're longer distance services, and the farebox—there are fewer people to pay the farebox. So, I think that this sits around the opportunity to drive growth in urban areas, so that you maximise the farebox in those areas, which then enables an opportunity for funders to make decisions around how subsidy is apportioned across Wales, to recognise some of the things that I've just said.

I guess a good example, although it's still very much going through a decision-making process, is that the ambition set for us by Powys, as part of the bridge to franchising, was to connect as many postcodes as possible to one or more key hubs within an hour's travel time by public transport. And we've worked really, really closely with the authority there to do that, to the extent that there's something in the region, if everything is put in place, of about a 40 per cent increase in mileage. That's really to drive their ambition against that objective. And it's the same principle of setting a contract with the operators to deliver those services. 

And infrastructure, depots and buses—how are they going to be handled under the franchising? When will these be owned by Transport for Wales, and when will privately owned assets need to be transferred between operators, and how's that going to be handled, both legally and practically?

Okay. So, again, I'll introduce this and maybe ask Richard just to add to it. So, from a depot-ownership perspective, we definitely see that it's a mixed economy. What I mean by that is there is no need or no way that Transport for Wales, or Welsh Government in this case, would own all of the depots across the whole of Wales. That's not practical and it wouldn't work. So, as an example, in Swansea, we think that key ownership—not Swansea, in south-west Wales—we think that, potentially, ownership of three depots will help us with delivery of franchising.

And then in terms of fleet, because you touched on fleet, over time, we would plan to move to a model of fleet ownership, but that will be subject to funding. And again, that is something that, over time, as we move to decarbonisation, will support the SME market, because it becomes a market leveller, because battery-electric and fuel-cell electric buses are much more expensive than diesel buses. Again, Richard, I don't know whether you want to pick that up.

Thank you, Lee. Yes. I think the other thing on depots is, whilst there are a lot of depots, and especially with SMEs, they're not just used for local bus services. So, if we did want to own every depot, then I think that we'd have a real practical challenge in how we would deliver it and, actually, the impact on those businesses would be adverse. So, that's, again, very much looking at how the SME market works to think about how do we want to approach our depots.

I think, as Lee said, fleet investment has been quite challenging in Wales. The average age of the buses is relatively old. So, we see a real opportunity there to insert new fleet and drive decarbonisation as much as we can—obviously, that's dependent on quite a few factors. And we have also already spoken to operators at a fairly high level about the idea of a residual value mechanism, where Manchester, again, have been very helpful in talking about what they did, which obviously helps us ensure that there are vehicles available, but actually de-risks investment from operators, because they're not left with stranded assets if, for example, there were routes they did run, but then lost.

Just going back, very quickly, as well, on the rural side, and it links to the depots—. I think it is important to see that, especially there, there are some real differences in how the market works—it's generally much more SME—but also, then, probably some really acute issues around training and testing of drivers and how that kind of pipeline works. So, again, we're sort of looking at all of those wider things as we're thinking about how franchising might work.

Could I ask a quick question? Thank you for that. I was wondering, if we're going to use SMEs about the depots and the fleet—and this is a bit of a bugbear of mine about branding—would you look to have a branding across all the network? You know, so it's one network, you know—

Yes.

Yes.

—the train and bus. Because we noticed in Manchester, they've had some of the Bee buses, but they also just had, like, magnetic signs that they put over as well. Are you looking to—?

Yes, so we—. Yes, we would. So, basically, as part of the T network, we would look to have that consistent branding across all modes of transport in Wales, whether it's active travel, rail, bus.

Okay. All tied together.

And, yes, I visited one of the depots, and I saw—. I think it says, 'I'm a Bee Network bus waiting to be branded', and I thought, 'That's a really good idea.'

Yes, okay. Yes.

So, I stole that as well. 

I think it just helps—

It does, yes.

It helps our residents in Wales to understand that it's, you know, one integrated service. 

Exactly. That's important, I think, isn't it?

And hopefully give them confidence as well to use it.

Can I just come back to the depots? What if—? I'm not sure if I've missed it—you know, transfer, potentially, from one operator to another, if there's a change in contract or something. I mean, legally and sort of practically, what's your thinking around that? Could that be fraught with all sorts of issues?

So, from a depot perspective, there are at least two ways to do it. One is that we could potentially—

You could take it in-house.

—go out with contracts that are depot agnostic, which is, I think, the approach they took in Manchester, or we would seek to establish sites, or have conversations with existing operators ahead of franchising about sale and leaseback, so that we would have ownership of those prior to franchising, or we establish our own sites, or we re-franchise in that kind of depot-agnostic way.

Sure, because if it is depot agnostic, then surely there's a risk that somebody else wins the contract and then can't find a depot.

Yes, and there's a risk that you're then in conversation with the incumbent operator to sell their depot, but you're not in a great position.

That's exactly what I was going to say. Yes, okay. 

I think the other point on depot transfer, and, obviously, there are some real challenges around the facility itself and the state of it et cetera—. Of course, the other thing, the really big thing, is people, and staff are based at depots. Making sure that we manage the workforce properly is a really big priority, and is obviously something we talk to the trade unions about a lot.

And Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 and all that, then, come into play.

Exactly.

Okay. Thank you. Julie, over to you.

Thank you. Bore da. As well as being struck by the branding, which was, you know, right in your face, really, which is great, we were also very struck by the openness of the communication with the public. And the mayor was playing a major role, giving—. I think every week he was on the radio talking about whether a bus had been late or a bus had been cancelled—warts and all—and I think that seemed very positive to us. And I wondered if you had any plans for one of you, or for James Price, or for the Cabinet Secretary to be on the radio every week, telling people what was happening?

I won't commit anybody else right now to be appearing on the radio every week. So, 100 per cent we recognise the importance of transparency. And absolutely, now, you know—again, I'll pick TrawsCymru as an example—we already publish some performance data on the TrawsCymru network. So, as part of our consultation, what we will also want to do is understand what people want to know about, what they want to hear about, and essentially seek to develop a suite of things that we can publish that make sense to the public, that are interesting and that they can judge performance on, because I think that transparency, as you say, is really important. 

Do you envisage doing that verbally in some way, as well as on the website?

I think at the moment we'd probably look to follow the existing ways that we publish that, which would be electronically and in hard copy format in some places. I'm not sure about—. I don't know whether we'd be doing it on the radio every week.

You say 'performance data'. As soon as you use the word 'data', then I have a picture in my head of spreadsheets and having to dig deep into websites. And as much as you are willing to post things up online, it really is a barrier for a lot of people in terms of when looking for it, whereas we were really taken aback by this willingness to engage and just respond to questions on a radio station.

I totally agree. I understand what you're saying about data. It's just making sure it's accessible. And it's performance information—what does punctuality look like? What do cancellations look like? How well have people supported the journey? And I go back to what I said earlier, actually—we genuinely are looking. I'm in conversation with someone at the moment about how we can make it so that you can give real-time feedback on your journey, and we can publish that and have conversation with the operators about how their service feels for their passengers.

I think it's very important as well because we are doing something different. This is something new, something where we hope the public are going to be much better served all over Wales. So, I think we all felt that something like that was very, very good.

Signals of change, as it were. 

Yes, a signal of change.

Okay. There we are. Thank you. We'll come on to Janet, then. I think we'll move on to permitting.

Can you outline how you will handle permitting arrangements under the Bill in practice, both where these are at the instigation of the Welsh Ministers or TfW? And at the instigation of bus or community bus operator, what systems will you establish and how will you assess applications? 

Okay. So, permits is one area where we haven't developed any detailed process yet. Obviously, we absolutely recognise the need, and we are going to have to have permits, and, again, this is a place that we are taking learning from Manchester and London and other such places.

We actually envisage that the majority of services in Wales will be delivered through franchise contracts, so it won't actually require a permit. However, we recognise that those cross-border services will require permits. So, essentially, that work is to do, but we want to make sure it is simple, easy to access, timely, so it doesn't take ages. And just to give an idea of context and scale, there are currently 53 cross-border services that are contracted either by Welsh authorities or English authorities. Thirty five of those are contracted by Welsh authorities, and 18 are contracted by English authorities. So, that's the kind of scale we're talking about at the present time for permits. But, again, it's making sure that that system is simple, accessible and timely. And that's, really, the experience that we're getting from elsewhere, and that operators are saying to us: just make it really, really clear.

And how, in practice, will TfW directly operate services under section 17? What mechanisms are being considered and how are you ensuring these mechanisms can be mobilised quickly where an operator of last resort is required?

I'll ask Richard to pick that one up.

So, I think the first thing to say is that our real focus is on delivering through franchise contracts, so it's not on direct delivery. We see a potential role for direct provision of services in the hopefully unlikely event that operators aren't able or willing to run the services that we want to procure. So, there's a few different ways I think that could happen. We do think that, in the relatively near term, we want to make some very initial steps, just so that, if we need to, we can accelerate more quickly. That might be, for example, setting up legal entities that are ready, then, to be turned into direct provision. But like I said, we see it very much as a fall-back, and the focus is on delivering through franchising. There is definitely a bus operator market there who's able and willing to deliver through franchising. 

Thank you.

So, under what circumstances would we see direct awards, do you think, happening? What kind of work have you been doing around that?

I think we see, really, two primary circumstances. One is if there's supply failure, so an operator unfortunately exits the market for whatever reason, and we're not able to take measures maybe in other operators with contracts, franchise contracts, to cover it, which could change those. If we can't do that, then that's one scenario. The other is if we're running a procurement and we're unsuccessful in attracting the right bids or we get non-compliant bids. In a sense, that is us failing, because the intention is to run a successful procurement. But that's the other scenario we primarily see that we might need to—. 

Okay, thank you. Julie. 

Looking at cross-border services again, the Bill doesn't appear to require consultation with English local authorities, and English needs, they say, are not relevant to transport needs for the purpose of section 19. So, how will you develop and deliver cross-border services, ensuring that you're meeting the Welsh needs but not compromising the English service?

We've already started engagement with the cross-border authorities, so have had meetings with Cheshire West and Chester, Shropshire, Gloucestershire, Herefordshire and have reached out to South Gloucestershire and Bristol City to have conversations. The conversations have been at a reasonably high level at the moment, in which what we've been doing is explaining the time frame and explaining the basis behind the bus Bill and what the aspirations are and what we're seeking to achieve. And then, importantly, what we have said to them is, ‘Look, from our perspective, the main area of focus where we need to work together and we need to make sure that the system makes sense is in terms of network, fares, frequency and hours of operation.’ And so those conversations do need to head into more detail, and obviously when we get to north Wales in 2028—there are two key cross-border areas there. We are having those conversations and we'll get into much more detail around them as time progresses.

So, basically, although it's not required in the Bill, you will be doing it. 

Yes, absolutely.

And who do you actually liaise with in those areas?

For example, in Chester West and Chester I've been liaising with their director. I've had some very brief conversations with their leader as well. And then actually, importantly, the really important part is to bring the local authorities, all of the local authorities, together into that space so that we can create the network in a way that makes sense to everybody, and seek to avoid the challenging conversations around funding and who's funding what cross-border.

Joyce, did you want to come in on this specifically before I come back to you? 

Yes. You’re already doing work in Powys, and there's obviously a significantly long border there, so have you started to develop that interaction or are you just purely doing—how can I put it—an internal Wales scheme? 

In fairness to Powys, we've built off and leveraged off the back of the relationships that they already have with Herefordshire in particular, and used that to have those conversations. So, it's not been just internal to Wales.

Okay. So, you can take that learning.

Yes, absolutely. And I think it's fair to say that, in fact, all of the authorities that I've spoken to have welcomed that engagement, they've welcomed the opportunity to have the conversation, and all of them truly see the value of cross-border transport and how important it is. 

Thanks. I was going to move on to information and data now. So, several stakeholders did identify a risk of duplication arising from the statutory need to share data with Welsh Ministers, with Transport for Wales, and local communicating and engaging with passengers themselves at all stages, not just consultation with representative bodies in the development of the plan.

I think we would see having basically a standard suite of data packages or information packages that everyone has access to, so that essentially everybody's looking at the same bit of information in the same way—. It's a bit like—I always use the analogy of a pyramid, but what we don't want is someone looking at it from one angle and seeing a square, and from another and angle seeing a triangle. So, it's having that standard suite of data with access for everyone, and again the desire is to want to co-create that so that it's meaningful for all of the parties.

And we may not touch on it in the conversation, but it's probably worth touching on that passenger information piece. We've got a task and finish group with local authority representatives at the moment that is looking at bus stop and bus shelter infrastructure across Wales. The aspiration is that we would build together, in partnership with those local authorities, a standard suite of infrastructure so that if, for example, you are standing at a rural bus flag in north Wales, it will look and feel the same as a bus flag in Pembrokeshire, with information provided in the same way, and that information is accessible, and, again, as part of that, looking to say, 'Is there any reason why we could not standardise the look and feel of, for example, a paper timetable across Wales?' so that, again, it doesn't matter whereabouts you are in Wales, when you look at it, it looks and feels the same. So, that's all part of the journey. Clearly, that won't happen overnight, but the aspiration is to move into that.

Hallelujah. Hallelujah, I say.

And just to set the context, there are around 27,000 bus stops in Wales, of which, in fact, around just short of half are unmarked. 

Oh, wow. 

Unmarked? 

Yes. 

That's interesting. 

You mean there's no sign there that it's a bus stop? 

Yes. So, we're working forward through that and making sure that we get the information, and looking to provide the information in a way that is accessible. So, we're looking into how can we provide digital timetables so it's displayed on a digital screen, but that it also is—sadly—vandal proof, so that people can't take it away or do anything with it.

I'm shocked that half of them are unmarked.

About 44 per cent, yes.

How do we expect to grow patronage when people don't even know there's a bus stop there?

Well, generally, through custom and practice, everybody knows where they are. And they're all logged in a database and all named in a database called the national public transport access nodes database.

But when we want to encourage new footfall—. Unless they happen to know somebody who uses the service currently, they wouldn't know it's there.

Well, I think, over time, we're looking to find a way to make sure that those places are clear and available to passengers.

Yes, okay. 

Because some of them are hail ones, aren't they—hail and stop? 

Yes, they are. You're right. 

So, you have to check a plan somewhere, a map, just to see if you can—.

I don't know what happens if you're two feet to the side of it.

Yes. Janet wants to come in as well on this one. 

It's a real biggie for me, this one, because it's happening now where it's really difficult for passengers to know what time a bus is going. You write to the local authority and they say, 'Oh well, it's the bus company', but you write back and say, 'Well, no, they tell us it's you.' A lot of people—. They assume that everybody should now be on these apps and things, and I think the question really is that we need to see local bus service information available to the public, under the new regime, all right electronically, but also on paper. Are you willing—? Are you accepting—? As you know, in Aberconwy, 36 per cent of people do not use electronic means. They've either not got the signal, they haven't got the ability to use electronic means, or they just—. Yes, real problems.

So, I mentioned the task and finish group. Part of the remit of that group is to work out the way in which we make sure we get that information available to everyone in a standard way that's easy to understand.

Because you're never going to build your business up, or your passenger numbers, if they don't know.

No. 

Sorry, no, carry on. 

And so, we already provide both printed and digital information for our bus and rail services, and we would seek to continue to do that. And then, of course, we have the luxury of having Traveline Cymru. So, Traveline Cymru is pretty much the hub of bus information in Wales, and they already provide information around things like journey planning, disruption, timetables, university travel, hospital travel—they'll shoot me because I'll forget some things, but broadly across all those things. So, we would look to make sure we use them in a way that's really effective for passengers as well.

So, briefly, Janet, and then Julie.

Yes. Picking up on disruption, when that happens on the rail line, there's always confusion. If there's a delay or something's happened, the information is not there at all currently. We don't want to see that go over to the bus system. So, if a bus broke down, for instance, or it was running late or whatever, how would those passengers know?

I think there's an opportunity—again, going back to standardisation—to standardise how information flows within the bus system. So, the way that happens even now will vary between operators and between local authorities. And I think having always in mind that the passenger needs the information as quickly as possible, it's within our remit and role to work with operators and local authorities to say, 'How do we (a) streamline this, and how do we (b) put something that's standard in place that makes sure the passenger gets that information as quickly as possible?'

Okay.

Thank you. Julie.

Do you normally use any other languages, besides Welsh and English?

On the buses?

Yes. And for information.

That's a really good question, which I don't know the answer to at this point in time.

Maybe you could just drop us a line.

Perhaps you could let us know.

I don't know what happens with the current bus operators.

Because, obviously, in some areas, that's quite important, in Cardiff, and—

Yes.

Just one more thing on this before we move on, then. Of course, the new franchises are going to be in place, there are going to be new routes—you're recasting, really. Much of it will continue, I'm sure, but there will be additional services, et cetera. So, you will need a huge push initially to make sure that people know what the new services look like, where they are, and where they go. So, what plans, or what thoughts, have you got about that initial pitch to users, and potential new users, that these are the routes that are there from now on?

So, I think a lot of the advice we've had from people—and this has been true for Manchester as well—has been, 'Don't change everything on day zero', for exactly the problem you said: the obvious challenge of how do you suddenly explain everything to everyone. So, certainly in south-west Wales, that's why we very much started—. As we agreed with the local authorities, as Lee mentioned earlier, start with the existing network and develop it. So, I think it's probably fair to say that changes there are modest, and we're going to have to be really focused on how we communicate to the users of those services the implications for them.

If I just look at how we're trying to communicate about the engagement in south-west Wales, one of the things we had—. I think I mentioned earlier that we had a number of bus operators in Carmarthen with us earlier this week. So, we were asking them can we put notices on their buses, for example. Because the best way to talk to bus users, is by getting something on the vehicles, isn't it? That's where you know they are. So, we'll use that as well as the digital means and the web and all of the other mechanisms we've got to communicate.

So evolution, not revolution. But that obviously then requires a great degree of flexibility in terms of the franchisee maybe gradually moving to a different service.

Yes. And I think the question was asked earlier about changes, wasn't it? The franchises are going to have to be flexible enough for the routes to develop over time, whether it's based on, hopefully, growing patronage, or to address reliability issues, or because new jobs, new residences appear, et cetera, that you want to service. So, we are going to have to constantly change.

Indeed. And the contracts, therefore, will need to include a carrot and the stick.

They will have that flexibility, yes.

Yes. Yes. Okay. Diolch yn fawr. Carolyn.

Operators have asked—I don't know if you can add this to the Bill or anywhere, and guidance—when infrastructure is put in place, can they consult with the operators? Because they're seeing new bus shelters being put in place without consulting with the operators, and so they don't really work there. And also, when congestion is such a big issue, they want more bus lanes and enforcement regarding parked cars, which is causing an issue. I just wondered if that is something that could be added.

I think I'd probably go back to what we talked about, that mutimodal, multi-partner advisory panel. I think if we're working properly together in partnership with operators and local authorities, who would all be part of that mix, those conversations would naturally happen, and operators will be able to feed in around bus priority, priority signals, all that sort of stuff. That would be my aspiration, that that's how that would go forward.

But would you like the Government maybe to give a nod to that on the face of the Bill, in some way, to strengthen your arm in those discussions?

I think—. My view is I think it can work in the way that it is.

It might seem common sense, but it's not happening in practice. So, I just wondered if it needs to have something added, really, so it does.

So, just regarding municipal bus services, delivered by local authorities, would you—? I can't see my notes here, sorry. Would you be able to provide support to local authorities who might like to step in with their own municipal service, maybe, if there aren't operators available in that area? There is concern that there's no statutory guidance and detail on the Bill regarding it, setting up a new municipal service. So, they're calling for clarity on how this should be done.

So, I think if we were asked to do so, and we had specific requests for support or help, we would be able to do so, subject to it being set within our remit and we weren't acting outside of what we're allowed to do. I guess the process of—. In fact, local authorities have the ability to set up arm's-length organisations already—not municipals, I accept that—but that's very much a legal process, so they would really very much need to seek their own legal advice and guidance and be comfortable with that, and be very clear about what they were asking for help with, I think. And again, if it was within our remit and we were able to support, we would be able to do so.

Okay. Will specific protections or opportunities be provided to existing municipal bus companies during franchise procurements? We have some of those already, don't we? 

Yes. So, we've talked about it much in this call, actually. Obviously, Wales has a really mixed market with big operators, community transport, SMEs and municipals, and our approach to date has been to work with the whole market, and different aspects of that whole market. So, we're working with Cardiff Council and Newport City Council, who are obviously the owners of the current, existing municipals. Basically, that work is to understand the impact of bus reform in relation to the municipals. As with all of the other parts of the market in Wales, we very much see municipals as part of that future.

Thank you. Stakeholders have highlighted a need to maintain the current local authority duty to secure local bus services during the transition period, just to ensure that there's continuation there going on, in unfranchised areas. So, how will Transport for Wales engage with these areas as the roll-out progresses to ensure no loss of service happens and there's a smooth transition as you go from one area to the other? 

So, that's about the current powers. Yes, okay. So, yes, I mean, essentially, in the way that we've got a rolling programme of roll-out, delivery and mobilisation, then that needs to be supported by a rolling programme of changes from a local government perspective. So, I would anticipate, which I think is what you're asking, that, as we move around Wales and move to north Wales, those powers would start to change, and that rolling programme would happen as we move around Wales. I don't know whether you want to add anything.

No, I think you're right. That section commences as we roll out, essentially, doesn't it, local authority by local authority. So, the duty remains, and we will work with local authorities to ensure that franchising starts at the point at which their duty finishes, so there is that seamless transition.

Okay. Thank you. And, yes, that's what I was asking. Thank you. While section 34 empowers local authorities to fund local bus services, stakeholders highlight that, without a statutory duty around the new local bus service regime, councils may cut bus spending. So, money's really tight, isn't it, for councils? So, some subsidise services, don't they, some don't. We talked to one local authority. They returned to bus subsidies after not having them for a while, so they wanted to make sure that they still were able to do that and use it to procure services that they wanted—so, yes, focus limited funds on what they believe is the need there. So, do you think it's a risk, and what assessment have you made of the impact that this would have if it was to happen? I know, a while ago, many councils removed subsidies, didn't they, because they thought, 'It's fine, Transport for Wales will just take over and pay for everything as well'. So, I'm just wondering how you're managing that.

Okay. So, I guess, probably three things I'd want to mention in that space—so, I guess, first and foremost, to acknowledge it is a risk, but, actually, it's probably a risk that exists now. I realise that the stakes might change slightly, but the risk does still exist now, and, as you've alluded to, authorities across Wales already make variable contributions, from not very much to actually some really sizeable sums of money. We have made a commitment to make sure that individual local authorities understand, for want of a better phrase, what they get for their investment. And then, I guess, the key is that it will be for locally elected members to determine whether they choose to invest or not, and, in so doing, the impact that that has on their network. So, if, for example, they choose to withdraw funding, there will be a commensurate impact on the network that is within their area, but they'll be making a choice understanding the implications. So, I think that's—. And I guess, coming back to—I said earlier, but—that we've worked—. The planning assumption that we've used in the south-west is focused on the existing contributions from those four local authorities, as well as the Welsh Government subsidy. So, we're planning on the basis that those things at least remain static, and, certainly, no-one's said anything different in the south-west yet.

I mean, clearly, then—. You know, we can say that maybe in terms of financial resource, but there's a human resource as well.

Yes.

And if you diminish the role of local authorities within this whole landscape, then you'd imagine that the skills and the human resource would diminish within local authorities as well. Is there a risk that that may bring with it some issues in the future?

Yes. I think, in the way—. I think, in the way that we are working in partnership with local authorities, we are actually working, to some extent, to sustain that knowledge and expertise in the local authorities, working with them. But I think, equally, as I mentioned earlier, we are also growing our expertise in this space. But I can't stress enough the importance of that kind of partnership working and the ability to engage with local officers who have the local knowledge, and, indeed, the work that we've done to make that happen—and, in fact, with the locally elected politicians as well.

Okay. Well, time is beating us, so the last question, then, I think, from Janet.

Thank you. In Manchester, we heard about the challenge of handling a large number of TUPE transfers at once—effectively overnight—as each stage of the franchise process went live. What consideration have you given to this and how will it be handled in each region as the franchise information rolls out?

Okay. So, I guess four things, really. One is that you'll be aware that, through that engagement architecture, we already have extensive conversations with trade unions in this space. I think it's really important to stress that the legal obligation for TUPE will obviously—. And that process will sit with the operators. What we are saying—. And our interest, obviously, beyond the social partnership stuff, is to make sure that operators communicate clearly with us, enabling that transition to happen in a timely way so that, through mobilisation and service delivery, there isn't a negative impact. And we will—. Should we face that situation in the south-west, then, clearly, we will onboard any experiences we have through that into future regions.

So, you see that very much—. I know, legally, it's a sort of operator-to-operator issue, but do you see yourselves as some sort of conduit, or would you just take a step back?

I think we'd see ourselves as being—

An interested observer.

[Inaudible.]—of being involved in—what's the word—consulted on the process, in that sense, so that we're assured that things are being done in a timely and effective way that is cognisant of the people involved.

And I'd imagine that would be something that you'd be clear about throughout the whole franchising process anyway.

Yes. We anticipate, and the planning assumption is, that we will have around about nine months to mobilisation from preferred bidder status, and so those are the sorts of conversations we'd want to be having during that period and early on in that period.

It's always very dangerous to give timescales on these things, you know. [Laughter.]

I did preface it with 'anticipate'. [Laughter.]

No, but it's good that you do, don't get me wrong.

Okay. There we are. If Members are happy, can I thank you both for your evidence this morning? Very, very useful. And, of course, I'm sure we'll be putting much of it to the Cabinet Secretary later on this morning. So, diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you. The committee will now break, and if we could just be back in the room for a few minutes before 11:00 so that we can start our next part of the meeting at 11 o'clock promptly? Diolch yn fawr. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Chair. It's good to be with you again, and thanks so much to committee members for everything that you've been doing to kick the tyres on this Bill. I think it's fair to say that most people understand what we're seeking to achieve with the Bill, and I don't think that there were any major surprises at all for stakeholders when we published it, but I fully recognise that many stakeholders are keen to see some of the more granular details about specific aspects of the plans for bus reform. But I think we've gone about this in the right way. I note that when the Urban Transport Group gave evidence to the committee they warned against putting too much detail into the Bill, as it can have unintended consequences. But more of the detail is emerging and, in the coming weeks, through the work that we're doing in south-west Wales, which of course is going to be the first region where we'll see franchising take place, there's consultation on the network. That is imminent, that work, and so details around packages and plans for the fleet and depots and engagement plans are emerging. This is being developed by Transport for Wales and with regional stakeholders. And, as I say, that consultation process, I think, will address many of the concerns that have been raised about the need for more granular detail.

And I suppose that's the balance that needs to be struck between a framework type of Bill, where maybe much of that detail follows—. Can I just ask as well—? The big takeaway, and I think we mentioned this to you previously, from our visit to greater Manchester was the scale of the challenge that's being undertaken here, but also I think, learning lessons, maybe, from the changes that have been introduced in a rail context, managing expectations is important, because, obviously, politicians, I suppose, we're all guilty, we want to impress on people how seismic a change and how positive a change potentially this could be, but then of course people have to appreciate that it's a long game, very often, and it can be quite painful to get to where you want to get to. So, how are you managing those expectations and maybe learning the lessons from previous mistakes with TfW and rail particularly?

Yes, I think you've put it perfectly: there is a need to manage public expectations. I see from the agenda for today's committee that you have Vernon Everitt with you this afternoon, I believe, and he may be able to provide some insight into how franchising was rolled out in greater Manchester and how they managed public expectations, I think in a very appropriate way. So, we've been learning very much from greater Manchester. And as you say, actually, Chair, we've learned from the major process that we went through with the rail franchise. So, there is a risk. I do accept this, that people think that as soon as we pass the legislation that bus services are going to improve immediately, we're going to see far more routes and so forth from day one and improved reliability.

It will take time to realise the ambition that we've set out, but there are some tangible short-term benefits from franchising that will be noticed by the travelling public. They won't have to, for example, navigate multiple different operators and timetables and systems. They'll be able to benefit from a network that is co-ordinated. There'll be a single app to plan journeys and we're going to be able to integrate from very early on timetables with rail service timetables as well. So, I do accept that the transition from the current arrangements to franchising is hugely complicated. It's a huge task. But that's one of the reasons why we are rolling it out on a region-by-region basis. We want to get this right; we want to take the time to ensure that franchising is done in the correct way, and that means that communication with the public is going to be vitally important.

I think that you're absolutely right to say that with rail there were—and I take responsibility for this—some raised expectations that people would see improved services from day one. It has taken time, but I think that we can point to Transport for Wales rail services, compared to the service that people experienced before 2018, as a step change, and we intend to do something very similar with bus services as well, and actually create for the first time one single network. But just going back to the point that you raised about managing expectations, I think that the consultation that's going to take place in south-west Wales will demonstrate that we're going to take this very seriously— we're not going to raise expectations. We will set out time frames, but there will be, as I say, some near-term, short-term benefits from franchising that people will see.

There we are. Okay, diolch yn fawr iawn. Carolyn.

I'm going to ask some questions regarding local authorities now. There's a widespread view that a stronger partnership with local authorities and local government is actually needed throughout the implementation of this Bill. You told us that local authorities will have a far greater role, and we've just heard that in evidence as well previously, but given that, why do you not make this explicit in the Bill, particularly in relation to the plan, but also more generally?

Thank you, Carolyn, and forgive me, I haven't had an opportunity to watch the session that took place earlier this morning with Transport for Wales, so apologies if I repeat anything that they've already outlined. But the Bill does state that Welsh Ministers must seek the views of councils in preparing the plan, and consult with them prior to its publication. And that's also true when it comes to revising the plan, and I do stand by my comments in May. I want to work as closely as possible with local authorities, councils and councillors and council officials, very close to the ground. They know their communities best, and their knowledge of local bus networks is vitally important, and that's why we're working so closely with them on the network planning to ensure that they can contribute to an integrated system.

And again, I point to south-west Wales and the preparations that are taking place there. There's going to be a launch of public engagement activity on the draft proposed base network, and that's been co-created with the councils—with the four local authorities. So, to reach this point, Transport for Wales have held various all-member briefings, they've been to cabinet meetings in the local authorities, and all of the local authorities have engaged with the CJCs, and we won't seek to do anything in isolation. And what we're doing in south-west Wales is going to be the model that we adopt for the other regions of Wales, and we'll be able to learn from south-west Wales as well, I think it's fair to say—that's one of the advantages of staging this on a region-by-region basis.

I don't know whether Alex has any more to say about—. Alex may have seen the session with TfW and might be able to reflect on what they gave in evidence.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Yes, I did manage to watch the session, and I think Transport for Wales were very clear in their session about the extent to which they will be working in partnership with local authorities as well as operators in developing the network. And I think all of the publications, such as the road map, have been very clear that the network needs to be co-developed with local authorities, CJCs and other partners to ensure that strategic join-up across Wales.

I thought it might be also worth just mentioning—I think we may have mentioned this in committee previously, so, again, apologies if I'm repeating myself—that we are considering making further efforts to clearly define roles and how Welsh Ministers intend to work with local authorities, through a memorandum of understanding to which the WLGA has signalled its support, and we'll continue ongoing engagement with local authorities to make sure that that support is maintained.

Thank you. Moving on to the next question: learner travel is a key stakeholder concern. So, in Wales, in particular, it is very often—learner travel—actually subsidised public bus transport, isn't it, and our small-to-medium bus companies rely on the school transport contracts, and we'll be needing them also to deliver the franchises. So, as they're so tied up together, there's a real fear that the importance of public bus services for learner travel will not be reflected in the franchises going forward. So, there's a perception that assurances need to be given that it will still be reflected going forward. Your official told us:

'when we implement the contracts, we’re looking to include an ability to bring learner travel into those.'

So, why are we not having explicit references to learner travel in the Bill as well, just to reflect that, for example, ensuring consideration in contracting?

Okay, so there's a lot that I could talk about on this topic. I'll be as brief as I can. First of all, learner travel is out of scope of the Bill, and learner travel will remain a responsibility for local authorities, whereas franchising will be a responsibility for Welsh Ministers. That said, the Bill does provide part of the solution to the challenge that we face on learner travel, and the challenge is considerable. We held recently a learner travel summit, and there were attendees from across local government, bus operators, further education, the children's commissioner was there, and young people. So, we were able to discuss various solutions and various tools that are required to address the challenge that we face with learner travel, but legislation is part of that package of solutions and the public network isn't the right solution for learner travel everywhere, or for every child or young person, particularly when we talk about ALN. So, it's important that local authorities retain responsibility for the entirety of this hugely complicated area, rather than us breaking it up, but equally that we work very closely with them to take full advantage of the opportunities that the Bill will undoubtedly provide.

So, for example, when Transport for Wales designs the network plan, they'll be able to consider whether there are any opportunities whatsoever to work alongside learner travel provision. This could be particularly beneficial given that, as you say, Carolyn, a lot of the SMEs in Wales provide learner travel as well as passenger transport as well. So, we're fortunate as well, actually, that in our department the person that is taking the lead on learner travel is also someone who's been at the core of the development of this Bill. James, is there anything you'd like to add?

Can we unmute? There we are, yes.

Sorry, I was just struggling to unmute myself. Yes, thank you, Cabinet Secretary. So, yes, there are a couple of things I'd like to add. I think the first one was—you asked about contracts, and I think that there is an opportunity in contracts. If we want to make it as easy as possible for operators, and particularly those SME operators—. I know that TfW this morning were talking an awful lot to you about SME operators and the overlaps with school transport provision that they also provide. There might be an opportunity within some of those contracts that we're currently considering to deliver school transport provision at the beginning and the end of the school day, but also have the opportunity to also operate public bus services in between these times.

I think the other thing I wanted to say was just to re-emphasise what the Cabinet Secretary said about the—. The Cabinet Secretary's already talked about the complexities of this Bill and the complexities of the challenges that we're taking forward in seeking a franchise solution, but in the summit that we had some weeks ago, we were really looking at the complexities of learner travel, and if we were to broaden the scope of this Bill and to bring learner travel in, it really would make it extremely, extremely complex to deliver. So, we think it's right and appropriate that that remains with local authorities as a statutory duty.

I am more reassured now with understanding how closely you are working with local authorities in partnership, so I find that helpful.

So, what you're saying in effect is it's not within the scope of the Bill, but on a practical level you will be expecting these things to come together?

Absolutely, yes. 

Okay. So, operators have highlighted congestion as a huge issue, one of the biggest issues they face, and they would have liked to see something in the Bill. So, for example, I've had examples recently where local authorities have put in bus stops, bus shelters, bus lanes, without consulting with operators, and they're in the wrong place, or when they're delivering active travel measures, we've got bus lanes, active travel measures, and there are lots of issues. So, they would like there to be something strong there that local authorities need to consult with operators and drivers before they put any of this infrastructure in place. So, that's just one example. 

I think you've touched on something that's enormously important if we are to create a successful network, and that is the need to make sure that services are safe. I'm borrowing this from Vernon Everitt again now: his mantra is to create a safe, reliable and frequent service. Now, congestion, therefore, is part of the wider policy context. We do need to invest in measures that ensure greater reliability of services against timetables, but we also need to invest in measures that improve safety as well, not just on the buses, but also in streets. So, we need to invest more on things like dropped kerbs, tactile paving, fixed kerbs, fixed pavements, putting benches along routes, making sure that bus stops are attractive and safe places to be, where information is provided. So, this is actually part of a wider policy context, and beyond the scope of the Bill, but it is vitally important that we recognise that dealing with congestion is going to be crucial in delivering a successful network, and in driving up passenger patronage as well.

So, I think what we'll see is the Bill will help to link in the planning and delivery of bus services with measures that will be taken to improve bus priority services, and, through Llwybr Newydd, we'll be able to go on investing in infrastructure improvements such as priority lanes, which we're delivering through bus corridors in Cardiff, and road space reallocation in Ynys Môn. We'll go on being able to do that.

With the devolution of local transport grants to the regions from next year, the money will be able to be spent against the region's regional transport plans. I know that transport plans at the moment—some of them are out for consultation, and consultation on some has closed—it is vitally important that we give local authorities as much say as possible over where to invest in their communities, because, again, it's that local knowledge, knowledge on the ground of where investment needs to be channelled that will be so valuable in ensuring that we do provide safe, frequent and reliable services.

Now, in terms of engagement with operators, you're absolutely right, Carolyn, it's vitally important that local authorities and Transport for Wales go on engaging with operators to ensure that we're placing seating in the right locations, to ensure that we're maintaining and fixing pedestrian and wheeling infrastructure and cycling infrastructure at the right points, and to ensure that we're placing bus stops in the right locations. That collaborative approach is going to be vital in delivering that safe, frequent and reliable network.

So, do you not think that addressing infrastructure in the Bill would strengthen that co-operation between delivery of operations and infrastructure, then, of buses?

Can I just come back with another example why I feel this needs to be stronger? Okay, so two routes have been stopped. One is at risk of being stopped, going to a major town, right? And I know the buses are full because of congestion, where parked cars are parking on double yellow lines. Now unless you have an enforcement officer there 24/7, it keeps happening. Operators, and even local authorities, have asked for stronger legislation or something there to rebalance this, so that buses have that priority for people, basically, those vulnerable people that rely on that bus to get to the—. I am really concerned that they will stop going to that major town because of people parking their cars.

Absolutely. I think that that's way out of scope for this Bill, that would require legislation in another area. But you are absolutely right, Carolyn, that bus priority measures are only going to be successful if they're used properly and if enforcement is taking place on a regular basis. But that is out of scope of this Bill. But it is something that local authorities and Welsh Government, Transport for Wales and the operators all recognise needs to be dealt with. It's actually a form, a very serious form, of anti-social behaviour to be parking inappropriately, and especially if you're blocking public transport. So, we do need to get to grips with it. In terms of bus priority measures, that, as I said, is outside the scope of the Bill. I'll bring in Catrin just to explain a little bit more, if I may.

But I think what we probably need to reflect on and acknowledge is that we have an interest in driving up the use of bus services as much as we possibly can, given that we're going to be carrying the revenue risk. Now, the only way to drive up patronage is to make sure that you offer safe, reliable and frequent services. The only way that you're going to be able to deliver frequent services and reliable services is if you make sure that the infrastructure is in place to enable that to happen. So, Welsh Government and local authorities will have a vested interest in ensuring that buses can travel without facing serious congestion. But I'll bring in Catrin, if I may, on why this is out of scope of the Bill.

Diolch yn fawr. Public transport, in its nature, is woven into all sorts of areas of our lives, and I think, in the same way as learner travel is outside of scope, even though it's key—. Congestion and infrastructure are things that are currently woven into public transport, obviously, but that's so broad that it would be creating a bit of a monster Bill to include everything within it. And, of course, we are tasked here with, and all our interests are in, providing for a local bus service network that is good for Wales. Whilst we recognise that this has a significant impact on and is significantly impacted by other matters, we're about delivering franchising, which will allow us to better co-ordinate and better deliver on all these other matters as well. So, it's very similar to learner travel in that respect.

I'd just say, on the engagement with operators, again, this new model will make it much easier for us to work with operators and local authorities to deliver in all these other areas. Even though they may not be directly included in the Bill, the list of objectives in section 4 means that we will need to deliver against all these things, because they are part of a whole picture for public transport.

Chair, if I may, I'd just like to touch on something, another point, that Carolyn raised, which was bus stops and benches being put in the wrong locations and a lack of engagement with bus operators. We're going to be producing national bus stop standards. It doesn't sound very glamorous, but it is going to be, I think, pretty important in ensuring that there's a high and consistent standard of bus stops across Wales. That's going to be focused on six core areas, and one of those is accessibility and location, making sure that bus stops are safe, inclusive and well located. And then the other core areas concern information, safety and security, environment and maintenance, branding, and then customer facilities as well.

Okay. Julie, then, and then we'll come on to Janet.

Yes, could I just ask you, Cabinet Secretary—? You said that you were consulting about bus stops; I assume that you are involving the disability organisations in this consultation, because I know we have had a meeting about that, because some of the bus stops we've had in Cardiff have turned out to be totally unsuitable, particularly for people with visual impairment.

Yes. This is why I think those standards are going to be so important, Julie. They will be standards that demand the highest quality and most appropriate bus stops. And not just bus stops—again, it's about seating, it's about information provision, it's about maintenance. And we're working very closely—I say 'we', actually, it's Transport for Wales is working very closely—in creating these standards with the access and inclusion panel that I've spoken about in previous committee sessions. That panel has been invaluable in informing how we can ensure that public transport is accessible to all. So, the standards are going to be co-created with the access and inclusion panel, and, indeed, Transport for Wales will be reaching out to many other groups and passengers, as well as potential passengers. We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that there are people who could, would, may use buses if they were frequent, safe and reliable. And that includes the use of bus stops. So, we're encouraging Transport for Wales to reach out to as many individuals and groups and organisations as possible to inform these standards.

Thank you.

Okay. I think we've moved quite a bit into the next area of questioning, actually. Janet, is there anything you want to add?

Yes. For me, passenger issues—. Earlier, we were talking about things like information for them, the points that Julie's raised about things. Because I see weaknesses in the train system, sometimes—announcements not made when you're approaching a station and things, lack of information if there's disruption and things. For me, the passenger is key here, and how you can reassure us that some of the problems we still envisage on the trains will not be passed over to the buses in that way.

Yes, absolutely. So, again, we've learned and we're determined to make sure that information is provided at bus stops and on apps on a live basis. We're also determined to ensure that, where appropriate, we have up-to-date paper timetables available at bus stops as well. 

Yes, please.

And I think, actually, Janet, you're absolutely right, comms are the key and the passenger is the king or the queen. We have to see services through the eyes and the lived experience of passengers. And I think the consultation that you'll see taking place in south-west Wales demonstrates that the passenger voice is going to be at the heart of everything that is planned in that network. And that's not just going to be a one-off exercise, that is going to be a continuing exercise in ensuring that the passenger voice is heard and that we act upon it on a continuous basis. That includes when we revise plans, for example; it includes when we have to consider the locations of bus stops and other areas of infrastructure expenditure. So, the passenger voice is going to be at the heart of everything that we do.

And—. Oh, I've lost my train of thought. Will you make sure that the results of the south Wales study—? Will we be privy to that? 

Yes. I think we're going to very transparent with everything. So, our learning experience from south-west Wales, we will—. Certainly, whatever documents we produce we'll provide you with access to them. It is the first region to go forward with franchising. It is an enormous task. There will be missteps along the way, potentially, but we have the right people on the bus, we've got the determination, we've got the passion and we've got the plan to deliver it.

Brilliant. 

But we'll make sure that we share with you any information and any lessons that we learn from that first region to have franchising rolled out. I should also say, just in terms of the passenger voice, again, just referencing back to what I was saying about the vested interest that we have in driving up patronage, given that we hold the revenue risk, we need to maximise the amount of money that's contained within the farebox, and that can only be achieved if we drive up patronage. We're only going to drive up patronage if we listen to people and serve their needs. So, that's why the passenger voice is just so crucial to our interests as well.

Thank you. 

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you. Julie. 

Thanks. I want to ask about community transport. Community transport, you know, is able to continue to operate outside the new bus regime, but we have had concerns expressed that these services will lose local government funding and focus once the councils lose the statutory duty responsibility for local bus services. So, how are we going to ensure that they do receive adequate support and funding? Because obviously they're a vital part of the whole provision.

Oh, absolutely. I've got first-hand experience of community transport, and I know the Chair of the committee will be aware of the good work of the South Denbighshire Community Partnership and the community transport that we see in the Dee valley. Community transport makes a huge contribution, and in many, many parts people would be left terribly isolated if we didn't have community transport in operation. So, we're determined to protect community transport across Wales. Officials, I can assure you, have worked to ensure that there are no unintended consequences arising from the Bill that might have a detrimental impact on community transport services, and I think the sector has given broad support for bus reform. But I do understand their concern that, as the system through which bus services are delivered is changed, they want assurances that a focus will remain on community transport and that funding is maintained. And I would like to assure the sector that this Government recognises the importance of their work. And I've asked my officials to work in partnership with the CTA and, indeed, councils across Wales to look at the best means of achieving their sustainability, and ensure that actually they don't just survive, they actually thrive, and go on serving their communities really well. But I don't know whether Alex or James—maybe James—might like to add something to this.

I think we don't need to unmute ourselves, it's done automatically.

Sorry, I was trying to unmute myself and ended up muting myself. Apologies. All I can do is reinforce exactly what the Cabinet Secretary has said. We absolutely recognise the importance of the community transport sector. We understand—. Because currently they get a percentage of funding from the bus services support grant that we provide to local authorities to run community transport services within those local authority areas. That system will be changing as we roll out franchising—on a phased basis, that system will be changing. So, we understand why they want to know exactly what the new funding mechanism will look like, and we are going to invest time and energy into working closely with local authorities and, very importantly, the Community Transport Association and community transport operators to look at what the best system is going forward. But, as the Cabinet Secretary said, this Government's commitment to community transport is very strong.

It's good to have that commitment. I am going on now to ask about the objectives, which we have covered a bit already in our discussion, because it has been suggested to us that there should be additional objectives included in the Bill. As I say, we have covered some of them: addressing congestion, learner travel, passenger engagement, market diversity to support SMEs. So, have you anything to add about whether these could be considered as objectives within the Bill?

I don't think a single Bill could deal with all of the challenges that we face in terms of delivering a network that is frequent, safe and reliable. It will require various interventions beyond the scope of this Bill. We set out in 2022 the White Paper, 'One network, one timetable, one ticket', and our objectives meet the wording. The wording is very consistent with what we set out in that White Paper. I will be open to considering further objectives, as long as they're reflective of the Bill's aims and could be within scope and could be delivered.

I've already talked about congestion and infrastructure. In other areas, when it comes to market diversity, the Procurement Act 2023 is going to apply to this particular piece of legislation. That will require consideration of whether any barriers to participation for SMEs can be removed or reduced when procurement is carried out. So, the legislation is already in existence, I believe, in a satisfactory way, to address those concerns. I've already spoken about learner travel and how that is a challenge with many facets; infrastructure, likewise. Then, when it comes to reducing emissions, reducing emissions will be something that comes as a result of investment in buses themselves, in the move towards electric, hybrid and, potentially, hydrogen vehicles. 

I hope that answers the question. I'm always conscious of taking too much on in a piece of legislation, which could inadvertently lead to it collapsing under its own weight. But I think what we have done with this Bill is made sure that it can be successfully delivered in terms of the practical applications of it, whilst at the same time adjoining it to all of the other challenges that have been outlined by the people who have given you evidence thus far.

Thank you. We don't want a monster Bill, as Catrin said, I know, but it's interesting that you say you are open. I think that's—

Yes, I think quality of service is one area that's been flagged, maybe. Improving passenger experience, maybe, is one area that isn't covered by some of the other stuff. But maybe that's something for us to consider in our report, maybe. So, thank you for that.

Yes. Thank you.

I'd very much welcome that. Thank you, Chair, yes.

Thank you. Okay, Carolyn.

These are questions now regarding the Welsh bus network plan. I've had concerns about managing expectations, and, when we went to Manchester, they said that also. We've just heard previously, in the previous evidence session, when consulting with local authorities, they're saying we should take forward just the existing network first, to manage expectations et cetera, before growing it. So, we've heard that the network will be based on regional transport plans. So, stakeholders, that's what they understand, and, when we've listened to them, they've been highly critical of the approach of the community engagement in regional transport plans. We've also heard from a local authority who said they put a lot of resources into the engagement process, but it's been really hard to get people to engage with them. I know from experience that when a bus service is actually looking at being removed, or it's been cancelled, that's when you get people engaged. It's just really regarding that, and the expectation of it. How do we address this, given that the Welsh bus network plan will draw on RTPs—that's the plan, isn't it? So, will this affect the quality of the plan? I'm just trying to join it all up. 

Yes, you raise some really, really important and valuable points here. First of all, the RTPs have been in development in parallel with the work that we're doing on franchising. So, they are going to be drawn upon, but they will not be the only reference points—far from it. We'll be able to include other strategic documents, like the Wales transport plan, in our considerations, as well as passenger and public engagement. That's going to be crucial, and also the significant input that local authorities themselves are going to be making. So, RTPs are part of the package of papers and engagement that we'll be utilising to develop the network.

But you're absolutely right again about managing expectations. That's why we're talking about the base network, i.e. the existing one. The rail Minister, Peter Hendy, recently said—I think you were there to hear him actually, Carolyn—that the reason that we hanker after, the public tend to hanker after, rail services over bus services is because they consider rail services to be more permanent and guaranteed for the longer term, whereas bus services come and go. This is why, I think, the base network is going to be so, so valuable, because the base network is going to be intended to be there for the long term, and that's going to be crucial in driving up patronage.

So, the regional transport plans, yes, they will be part of the package of documents that we'll be considering, but, at the end of the day, we're going to be developing the network on the basis of what the public wants. And that engagement will not stop with the engagement that's taken place on the RTP, as we're showing in south-west Wales, where the engagement, the consultation process, is going to be beginning soon.

Okay. Stakeholders have identified a need to strengthen consultation, but also with those that don't actually use public bus transport at the moment, as well as the existing users, and they've asked are you open to amendments on the consultation arrangements for it.

Yes. Sections 6 and 8 provide for, I think, pretty strong duties requiring consultation with anyone that the Welsh Ministers believe to be appropriate in providing services. Now, I think it is vital, again, to recognise that Welsh Ministers are going to have a vested interest in driving up the farebox, and we're only going to do that by attracting new people, new customers, new passengers to the network. We're only going to do that if we design a network that meets their needs. And so I think the consultation that will take place with the public has to be extensive, it has to be broad and deep, in order to develop and deliver a network that will see a significant increase in the number of passengers using it. And I think in Manchester, right—I can't remember the exact figure, but—franchising has already led to an uplift in the number of people that are using those services, and I think that indicates what can be achieved through franchising.

Can I just sneak in a question about branding? I asked in the previous session as well about branding. So, I think, to drive this—. People have confidence, I think, at the moment—more confidence—in rail than buses at the moment because of information, reliability, et cetera. And I think branding is going to be really important with this. We've got the Bee Network; we're looking at the T Network for integrated transport. So, I just want to know, going forward, how are you going to—? And marketing is going to be really important as well for that confidence.

It is. It is. Yes, absolutely, branding, marketing and communications are vitally important in developing confidence amongst users, passengers. And again, I don't know what TfW told you earlier about branding, but having consistency is going to be important. I recall—and maybe this is with a bit of nostalgia in mind, so that's a caveat—I do recall the days of Crosville buses, where you had that consistent branding on a regional basis. And I think that gave assurance that, no matter what service you're getting on, it's provided by the same operator with the same standards across all of the network that they operate. And that's the sort of approach that I think we wish to take with the idea of the T Network, and it's certainly something that I think we're seeing with the Bee Network in greater Manchester. I've been over to greater Manchester to take a close look at the Bee Network and to visit their depots, so I do appreciate the huge amount of work that's been undertaken in developing a network that has consistency at core.

Yes, I think that's an important message. Julie.

It's been suggested that the requirements to revise the plan are potentially onerous—for example, roadworks could often take longer than 14 days. So, how do you respond to that? 

Well, we've got to be proportionate, and I do understand concerns around this. I think that 14 days is an adequate period of time to cover most emergency circumstances. Those emergency circumstances that require interventions lasting more than 14 days are usually pretty significant and hefty. And in north Wales, we could point to one example, which is in my constituency, so I'm well aware of it, but Newbridge, where there was a major landslide and it took out a road that is crucially important, not just as, if you like, a relief road, an alternative route to the A483, but is also a major route for local public transport. So, that has been closed for a very, very significant amount of time. And that is typical of those major emergency circumstances that require more than 14 days of effort to overcome. So, I do think that 14 days is adequate for most emergency circumstances, and those circumstances that fall beyond 14 days are more likely to require longer term interventions.

But, obviously, we're going to make sure that the plan is kept up to date, and we're also going to avoid making revisions so onerous that the plan fails to be dynamic. It's got to be dynamic enough to meet people's needs. So, I think we have been pretty proportionate—or very proportionate—in how we've outlined these measures. Catrin, is there anything more that you'd like to add to this?

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. Yes, just to add to what you're saying about being proportionate, we have had it in mind that we don't want to make the process so onerous, and this goes for the whole of the Bill, the whole of the legislation, really—not to make it too onerous that we're not dynamic, but, at the same time, holding people to account and being transparent. So, the plan doesn't include granular details such as times and frequencies of services, and consultation is only required when changes are more than minor and it will be practicable to do so.

These are all things that we've put in place because we recognise there are so many different circumstances under which we might find ourselves needing to make revisions. And so we've tried to sort of lock it down as much as we can without specifying too many details, so that we just make it impossible to make changes. I'm not sure that that adds much to what you were saying, Cabinet Secretary, but I think it is key—making it proportionate is key to what we're trying to do here.

So, in terms of arriving at the figure of 14 days, was there data you looked at to arrive at that figure, or common sense? 

Well, yes, common sense, hopefully. But, no, most of it is around what's in existing transport legislation, and so we've gone with consistency there, because it's almost an expectation. But, yes. And I think it's reasonable; people would reasonably think that an emergency or a swift change would be within 14 days. Anything after that, I think people would expect a bit more information on it, maybe. But what I'd just like to point out as well is that this is about the network plan, but actually it's the information we're providing the public through section 27, it's that information, that people actually want, around timetabling. That will be live information, and therefore that will reflect any figure above and lower than 14 days. So, that's important to remember—that this provision is around the network plan, which is a higher level plan than the information that people will actually be getting day to day.

And so do you think there's any need for greater clarity on the interpretation of ‘minor’? 

I don't think there is, because these things aren't black and white. I think perhaps we do need to do work to ensure that people understand what is meant by ‘minor’. But these things, as I say, are not absolute, they're not black and white. And there may be some circumstances where a revision to the plan will be very, very limited in its impact on passengers and providers of bus services. For example, if a route is changed without actually affecting the stopping points, without affecting the journey time, then that would be considered a minor revision. And equally, if there are emergency works that have to be carried out that won't last more than 14 days, then it wouldn't really be practicable to consult on that change, because the change might not actually last as long as the consultation, and, in some circumstances, there may be no choice, no alternative, as to act. So, as I say, I think probably we do need to ensure that there is a greater understanding of what is meant by 'minor', and I do think that that's going to come over the coming months.

And also 'reasonably practicable'. That's—

Yes, indeed. Yes.

Okay, thank you. Right, I think we've given that a good airing. Shall we move on to Joyce? Thank you. 

Good morning. I'm going on to local bus service contracts now, and stakeholders have suggested that the Bill, as it stands, is inflexible. They were identifying a need for a plan B in the event of significant loss of service because of those contracts, and they accept that a range of contracts are possible, noting permitting and direct-award provisions. Do you recognise their claims that this is inflexible, and also that you could have major loss of service?

Well, I do appreciate the views that have been expressed by some in the sector in relation to a plan B, including a tiered system of franchising, enhanced partnerships and so forth, but I just don't think that they offer a means of delivering on the ambition that we've set out for an all-Wales network of franchise services. And yes, we've outlined how franchising is a preferred method of securing services, but, if you want to talk about a plan B and a plan C, we felt it prudent to ensure that there was flexibility in place to respond to opportunities and challenges and crises to allow us to avoid any major loss of service. So, we do believe the scope of provision—including permitting, including direct provision—ensures appropriate alternative methods to guarantee certainty and continuity of services should emergencies arrive, or should there be market failure. But I don't think that there's a need for a plan B as has been outlined by some in the industry. I do appreciate the views and the concerns that have been expressed, but, as I say, I'm quite confident that we've got flexibility built into the legislation to ensure that we can address any market failure or crises.

The other area of doubt that exists with experienced bus stakeholders is the assertion that franchising can make savings, or deliver more for the same cost. Has that given you any thought for pause?

An excellent question, and I've not only read the briefings on this, but I've also done a lot of research myself, thanks to Google. There is a really interesting report from the Centre for Cities where they talk about the benefits, which are many in number, and they talk about the cost benefits of franchising. We've looked at Manchester, obviously. And I do recognise that it might not be the case that savings will be made immediately under the new model. Equally, I believe that there are other considerations that make it a worthwhile investment.

We're spending over the course of this Senedd term around £600 million. When you set aside the cost of learner travel, we're spending around £600 million to support the bus network. Now, that is a huge amount of money, but we have very little control over how it's used. This Bill is going to give us far more control over how it's used. And it'll also give us the tools to secure a whole-network approach to services to be able to integrate with rail services. Instead of having a firefighting approach to delivering public transport—which is essentially what we've got at the moment, where urban areas disproportionately benefit from access to services—we will have a proactive ability to be able to plan the whole network and to ensure that there is that integration in place.

So, I do accept and acknowledge that what we're proposing to do through the Bill is much larger in scale than what many people believe we should be pursuing. But I think it is worth looking at the TrawsCymru network in terms of potential cost savings. You're only going to make cost savings if you drive up patronage. Again, it's about the value of the farebox against the cost of the network itself; I talk about net cost.

If we look at TrawsCymru, where we do have control of the network, we've seen, in the space of, I think it's the last 12 months, huge uplifts in patronage. I think some of the services have seen an increase of more than 43 per cent. They've also reported a notable decrease in the proportion of customer complaints. So, where we've got control over how the money is used, we've seen a significant increase in patronage, an improvement in customer services, which is borne out from, or demonstrated by, the decrease in customer complaints. And, again, we're able to better integrate those services with rail services. So, I do think that TrawsCymru is a very, very appropriate model to be able to ascertain how the network, as we plan it under this legislation, will deliver for the people of Wales.

Thank you. Finally from me, I want to talk about transparency on the network performance, and some honesty, really, with the public. The mayor of Manchester seems to stand out in this space, because he held weekly talks on the radio—I'm not suggesting we copy that, but this is a good example. He talked about the warts-and-all approach. So, do you think that Transport for Wales has been slow to publish route-level performance data for rail?

I've been pressing for as much information to be made available to the public in as transparent a way as possible when it comes to rail services. There's a plethora of data that you can provide to the public. I think what's most important to the travelling public is the reliability of the service that they use—rather than the entire network, it's that particular route service that they use that is most important to them. So, having that information at stations and on trains is hugely important. And the same applies to buses, I believe.

So, we do have to have a very transparent system in place, where we are able to provide the public with data that shows performance across the network—specifically, though, to the services that people use. And, actually, it can be incredibly helpful to have that transparency in order to address challenges that we might face in improving punctuality. For example, if a service is not operating reliably and frequently, as it should, it may be down to the fact that bus priority lanes are needed, or it may be down to the fact that the—[Inaudible.]

Oh.

Okay, there seems to be a glitch on the Cabinet Secretary's line, I think. The picture is frozen. We just hope that he—.

And relied—

Sorry, Cabinet Secretary, we lost you for a moment there. You'll have to just rewind about 30 seconds, I'm afraid. Oh, he's frozen again. Okay. We might need to just adjourn briefly, then. So, we'll just adjourn the meeting for a moment, and, hopefully, we'll be able to re-establish that connection with the Cabinet Secretary.

Apologies, Chair. I lost connection then, I think.

You did indeed. We—. Have we adjourned, or are we okay to carry on?

We're still live.

We're still live. There we are. Okay. Yes, you'll have to rewind a little bit. We lost you for about 30 seconds.

I apologise. So, what I was talking about was the value of transparency in winning public support when measures need to be taken to address a lack of reliability or punctuality. For example, if you can provide the data and the information to the public that demonstrates interventions are required, such as bus priority lanes, then people are far more likely to support that sort of intervention. Whereas, if you just go forward without actually explaining to the public why a bus priority lane is required, you're less likely to get the support and the buy-in from the public. So, actually being transparent with data is vitally important. I'm keen to see data shared regarding route reliability and punctuality, because it's the individual routes that people use that matter most to them, rather than the reliability measures and data applying to the entire network.

One of the areas of lack of data we heard earlier was the lack of identifying bus stops. I think it was 48 per cent that weren't marked and therefore, as a consequence, don't have any infrastructure around them to let anybody know (a) that they exist, if you don't already know, and (b) what time to expect any service, or anything, actually, at all. I think it was quite staggering, really, that we found that out. There are lots of reasons for it, of course. So, will that be addressed in this Bill? 

So, that's one of the objectives of the bus stop standards that I mentioned earlier. We have in excess of 20,000 bus stops across Wales. Local authorities are responsible for them. They vary, as you can imagine, in terms of style, in terms of age, in terms of what they provide. Some are clearly unsafe, some are clearly out of date. Having national bus stop standards in place, with identified individuals within local authorities that can work with Transport for Wales on those high-quality standard bus stops, is going to be vitally important. So too will investment in them. That's one of the reasons, for example, in this financial year, I've invited local authorities, or, in fact, put a condition on the local transport grants, the active travel funding, that they use a majority of the core funding to ensure that we have fixing pavements, fixing kerbs, fixing bus stops as a priority measure. We have to get to grips with the number of bus stops that are simply inadequate, too old, poorly maintained, and we have to do it in a consistent way. So, those standards are going to be vitally important.

The provision of data, the provision of timetables, the provision of route punctuality is going to be important as well, both online through apps, and then within bus stops and at bus stops. Not only are traditional paper timetables going to be used where appropriate and necessary, but digital displays that capture live information are going to be vitally important as well.

There we are. Okay. Thank you for that. I'm just mindful that we have 30 minutes left and we probably need to change gear a little bit, otherwise there'll be lots of the Bill that we haven't managed to cover. Janet, if I can come to you.

Yes. Some stakeholders—. No, I'm on here. Sorry. Some stakeholders are concerned that permit conditions can be varied or permits revoked by notice on the date the notice is issued. How do you respond to the view that passengers and operators need an appropriate notice period?

Well, I totally understand that, and the administrative system for operating a permitting system is going to be developed by Transport for Wales. It will be subject to timely and collaborative engagement with key stakeholders, including the industry, but on occasions, it is going to be important, I think, that immediate action can take place. For example, if there's an issue with safety on the network, I think it's important that action can be taken immediately. Catrin, would you just like to outline a little more about this?

Diolch. Yes. I mean, the permit system is to be developed, and TfW did go into a bit of detail earlier about the work that they're doing to develop the administrative system for this. We've outlined carefully considered reasons why permits might be revoked or varied, and some of those would require immediate action, as the Cabinet Secretary says. We'd need to make clear information available to people about the circumstances under which that could be done, and also we've developed it so it's in keeping with other permitting regimes that people in public transport would be familiar with. So, there's quite a bit of work to do, I think, particularly for TfW, in working and in engaging with operators and others about how that's going to work. But I think the intention is to ensure that operators are provided with the appropriate notice of changes to permits. And again, we're back to the word 'proportionate' and making sure that we work with operators, but that they also understand that, with the safety or concern of passengers, we should be able to take immediate action. We should be able to take proportionate action.

So, in the absence of statutory guidance, you're confident, are you, that everyone's going to clearly understand the criteria, so that they don't end up wasting time and money? 

Yes, I'm confident that'll be the case, Chair.

Okay. Can I just ask about direct provision, then, because, when you appeared before us in May, you told us that the direct provision under section 17 wasn't a back door to nationalisation? But do you accept that the test, currently, is extremely broad and it does genuinely leave open the prospect of nationalisation, whether that's the intention or not?

Well, Chair, if we wanted to nationalise, we would, but this is most definitely not a back door to nationalising the bus network. And I think that the Bill pretty clearly implies that franchised services have a higher status than—

But there's nothing in the Bill that would prevent nationalisation if, for any reason, you felt that was necessary.

When we talk about nationalisation, are you talking about it on an entire network basis?

Well, it could be on a single part of the network, or both. I mean, it could be both, couldn't it? There's nothing in the Bill that differentiates.

It would be impossibly difficult to do that, and as I say, if we wanted to nationalise, we'd be doing that rather than going down the route that we believe is most appropriate and will deliver better for people in Wales. But I think I was just going to say about the individual routes as well. I think it is important that Welsh Ministers are able to directly provide individual routes. Obviously, as I've said, there is the implication that franchised services have a higher status, but it is important that we have alternative means of providing services for the travelling public.

So, there's nothing in the Bill that would stop it, necessarily? Not that that's the policy intent, of course.

It's not the policy intent, and, as I say, if that were the policy intent, we'd be pursuing a very different piece of legislation for this.

I can imagine, yes, of course. Okay, diolch. Back to you, Janet.

Thank you. Some stakeholders are confused about the purpose and effect of section 18. Under what circumstances would you rely on section 19 community transport services and Part 3 of Schedule 1 services in meeting your duty to secure local bus services, given neither carry members of the public?

I think it's important that we—. It's unlikely that these types of services are going to be relied on, but we do need to ensure that, where they exist, we don't inadvertently restrict their ability to continue delivering their service and that we avoid duplication of services.

How are you going to do that?

Well, I'll bring in Catrin, if I may.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. It is a bit of a technical area, this. So we've included section 18 to enable us to use those services if they satisfy the public need that has been identified when establishing the network plan. So, as the Cabinet Secretary says, we don't think this will be used very often, but say you've got a service, it's provided under a section 19 permit, and it may take a certain group in a community to a certain place at a certain time—that need has been identified in the network plan, but actually it's only those people that will want to use that service. So, it's already satisfied, and therefore we wouldn't want to place a duty on Welsh Ministers to provide that service again, to secure that service again, under the network plan, if it's already been satisfied.

We don't want to, in effect, take community transport's purpose away from it. They are already providing that service, and they provide it well. So, we don't need to duplicate that service, just because the legislation is structured in a way that means we can't take those services into account. So, it is very technical, and it's very bitty, but we've had extensive conversations with the Community Transport Association and others around ensuring that community transport is given the kudos and the uplift by this legislation. So, this provision was just to make sure that we don't do anything unintended to harm their ability to do what they do. So, I hope—[Inaudible.]

I'm still a little bit confused. Now, you're only required to consult Welsh local authorities on the Welsh bus network plan and the relevant transport needs considered in section 19 of those in Wales. Now, you've told us in May that extensive engagement has taken place with English authorities. Why does the Bill not require this engagement, which you clearly recognise as being necessary?

Well, because—I forget exactly what sections they are, but we are content that consultation with English local authorities under two sections of the plan will be sufficient. I stand by what I said in my previous session, that cross-border services are vitally important and extensive engagement has been undertaken between Transport for Wales and English councils, particularly on the north Wales part of the Wales-England border, where we see—

What about the others?

The other English local authorities, or—

No, the other borders.

Yes, so all local authority areas in England where bus services currently operate to and from have been engaged by Transport for Wales in developing the network plan, and I—

And you're fully up to date with that engagement.

Yes, fully up to date with that engagement and it's ongoing, and it will be ongoing. So, if plans need to be revised, then obviously that engagement will take place. And I am content that the consultation that's required with English local authorities on the plan is reflected in the two sections. I think it's sections 6(4)(g) and 8(4)(g) that require that consultation with English local authorities. So, I am content that it is sufficient. And, again, I'd go back to the point that I've made on a couple of occasions now, that we're going to have a very vested interest in ensuring that we grow the revenue box, and to do that we have to get more people on buses. In order to do that, we have to plan routes and services that maximise opportunities for people to travel, and that includes on a cross-border basis. 

Okay. I'm not on 23, but I'm on 24.

Okay. We're not sure that there's anything in the Bill that requires consultation with English authorities. Is that the case? Catrin wants to come in, I think. 

Catrin.

Yes, I just wanted to say that, even though English local authorities aren't mentioned specifically, as the Cabinet Secretary says, the provisions in the Bill do require us to consult with any persons the Welsh Ministers consider appropriate. And of course— 

Okay. So that will—

Yes. So, on cross-border, it would be inappropriate not to consult with—

Yes, sure. There we are. That flexibility is there. Okay. Just on section 21, then, if I could. Some stakeholders have queried why community bus services are exempt from the restriction on providing local bus services under section 21 and why the permit regime doesn't apply instead. So, I was just wondering how you respond to that, really. 

If I may, I'll bring in James on this, if that's okay.

Yes, because the risk is, of course, that these community bus services operating outside the local bus service regime could potentially affect the viability of contracted or permitted services. 

Yes, and our intention is to ensure that we enable community transport provision to work alongside and as part of local bus service operations, rather than cannibalise and rather than their being diminished in their strength. But, James.

Yes, thank you, Cabinet Secretary. As the Cabinet Secretary said earlier, we absolutely recognise the importance of those community bus services and what they do for some of the most vulnerable communities in Wales, and that's why, to reflect this, section, I think, 21(2)(a) of the Bill allows community bus services to operate free of restriction. Our intention is to ensure that we enable community transport provision to continue and flourish alongside and as part of the local bus network, as we've already said during the course of this session. It isn't our intention that these services will be competing with other services operating under a local bus service contract or permit, but instead it's about the fact that they offer a different type of service to communities. 

Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet.

So, some stakeholders, particularly not-for-profit community transport operators, have raised concerns about the burden of providing information under Part 4. How will this be managed and mitigated?

Sorry, that was the duty to make information available. 

Yes.

Okay. So, local authorities are going to continue to be responsible for things like bus stop infrastructure and therefore for providing the information about bus service provision in an accessible format, obviously including, as I've said now on numerous occasions, in paper format. But it's going to be important for local authorities to work jointly with Transport for Wales to agree the most appropriate template for each region, and that's going to have to be done before franchising. So, each local authority will have a clear process on who is responsible for updating information at each bus stop. And as I've mentioned, we are setting up those national bus stop standards—which will help councils; it'll help the regions through their CJCs; and it'll help other partners—to ensure that we have a standard and high-quality provision of information and data. And it's important that we gather that data from all operators. It's important as well that we gather data from community transport operators, so that we know the full scale and scope of the network that exists across Wales. 

Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. Why are section 19 community transport services and Part 3 of Schedule 1 services required to share data, given neither carry members of the public? 

Well, because it's going to allow for effective planning for the future. Transport for Wales is going to be working with all operators to gather relevant data for the purpose of planning the network, so that's going to include all service providers. I think it makes perfect sense to do that. 

Okay—

Well, I'll just—

I'm not 26—

No, no, it's okay. Just picking up, really, on the discussion in the explanatory memorandum on the duty, or the application of the duty, to make information available to the public, it focuses very much, as you would probably expect maybe, on the apps and electronic means of information, but who will therefore be responsible for information provided at bus stops and in paper form and paper timetables? I don't see the same level of discourse around that. 

Yes, that will still be local authorities, but, as I've said, it's going to be important that, through those national bus stop standards, we have consistency across Wales. But it'll still be local authorities, with the support of Transport for Wales.

Okay. These bus stop standards are heavily trailed today, but I'm sure—. They don't sound the most exciting, as you said yourself, Cabinet Secretary, but absolutely critical, I know. Janet back to you. 

Thank you. Some stakeholders have called for clarity on how municipal bus companies might be established. How will you address this, given there is no provision for guidance? 

Well, if a council wanted to establish one, then we, within Welsh Government, would work with Transport for Wales in discussing the possibility of setting up a municipal bus company, but it might be different across each part of Wales, so we're not planning on producing any guidance. 

Right, okay. And some stakeholders have noted and welcomed a Welsh Government political intent to protect existing municipal operators in the new regime, including within the franchising system. However, the Bill does not include any specific protections. Why not, and how will this protection be achieved? 

Well, I don't think there's actually a need, within the Bill, to provide those protections explicitly. We've got two municipals at the moment—we've got one in Cardiff and one in Newport—and the basis upon which they operate is going to be preserved to enable Cardiff and Newport councils to transition the existing companies. And that's because they're going to be able to use the general power of competence to create new companies, so they'll be able to then transition into it. And I think that provides that distinction between the old and the new regime, but I think Alex may be able to explain this in greater detail.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Yes, I think the White Paper that was published back in 2022 was very clear that the intention is to sustain a market that includes a range of SMEs and municipal operators as well as the larger commercial operators. So, we do support the principle of municipal bus companies remaining in the public sector, and we're working at the moment with Cardiff and Newport councils to examine options to achieve this, and obviously any options must deliver value for money.

So, once the existing restriction on local authorities providing bus services is lifted, Cardiff Bus and Newport Bus will be able to transition—sorry, as the Cabinet Secretary has already said—under the general power of competence. We don't need specific provision. So, to provide a local bus service, subject to the restrictions in section 21 of the Bill, a municipal operator will need to have been granted a local bus service contract or local bus service permit.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you very much, thank you. Carolyn.

Thank you, Chair. Stakeholders have highlighted a need to maintain the current local authority duty to secure bus services during the transition period in unfranchised areas as they move to being franchised. Will current arrangements remain in place, and when will section 33 be commenced?

Yes, thanks, Carolyn. Yes, we're going to be maintaining the current duty during the transition period, and local authorities will be made aware of when section 33 will commence in good time. We're going to give them ample time, ample notice so that they can make appropriate preparations, and we're going to be doing it on a zonal basis, I should say as well. So, we're going to do it on a zonal basis that will then map against the respective local authorities within that zone. 

Okay, thank you. And section 34 empowers local authorities to fund local bus services, and stakeholders highlight that without a statutory duty around the new local bus service regime, councils may cut bus spending. We've seen in the past that some councils have and they expect Transport for Wales to step in; some have kept them so that they've been able to keep services that are really important to them locally as well. So, they're really worried about the limited funds that there may be going forward, if local authorities withdraw them as well. What impact would this have, do you think, and how will you ensure that it doesn't happen? Well, I don't think you can, really, but—