Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Thank you. Good morning, everyone. I just want to get my volume right so there's a reasonable echo. I'm Professor Siraj Shaikh. I'm a professor in systems security at Swansea University. Systems security represents the technology underlying secure and resilient systems, but also the economics, the supply chains and the policy aspects of that area. I also hold two other roles that are relevant today. One of them is I am the chair for the research and innovation working group at the UK's Automotive Electronic Systems Innovation Network, which is a trade body for automotive electronics. I'm also a chair for a working group dedicated to security and resilience for SEMI, which is the global semiconductor association, and we conduct our business in Munich from time to time.

Thank you so much. And Chris, if I could ask you to introduce yourself for the record as well, please.

Sure, thank you. Good morning. My name is Chris Meadows and I'm director of CSconnected, which is effectively the trade body for the semiconductor sector in south Wales, or based in and around south Wales. We represent a number of organisations, from universities through to non-governmental organisations and industry representatives. I also wear another hat, which is as co-chair of Technology Connected, a trading name of ESTnet, which represents the wider technology sector in Wales.

Thank you both so much. You're very welcome. Well, you've both already been outlining to us some of your connections in terms of the technology world and how that feeds into Wales's international offer. I wonder if you could please explain to us how your expertise is fed into the Welsh Government's international activity and where you see the international strategy in terms of how it helps place the international offer—in terms of your work, how it connects in. I'll go to Professor Shaikh first.

Thank you. So, the context here of the global electronics industry is that it is a very diverse and global supply chain, which means that the value—for, ultimately, the end user, but also the organisations that are part of that supply chain and that value chain ultimately—is disparate and spread all over the world.

Wales, given its strengths in this area in terms of semiconductors, but also the research and development, also the production, the design, and the partnerships that it holds—that position has to be articulated from time to time to convey the Welsh strengths. My role, given the work that I've done, predominantly in Germany in Europe, has been to champion that not just from the university position that I hold, but also the number of partnerships and the local ecosystem that we represent.

So, the international strategy very clearly talks about championing Wales, but also aligning with the export and trade and growing that. The work that we are trying to do helps with setting standards. These are international standards. And, of course, setting those standards and being part of those committees positions us very firmly in those global supply chains, but also, then, we champion the partnerships, the capability and the skills as part of those discussions. So, my work has directly fed into raising that profile very deeply as part of the technology supply chains, and so to rearticulating that and championing that.

Thank you so much. Mr Meadows, is there anything that you would like to say on this?

I would echo the thoughts about the global nature of the industry. It's estimated that, from the starting product right the way through to the final device, whether it's an electric vehicle or a mobile phone, the components travel around the world between three and six times, because different parts of the process happen in different locations around the world, and, actually, semiconductors were the first to be outsourced around the world. So, it was the first real outsourced overseas global operation. 

My role has really been for the last 40 years, or the best part of 40 years—. Wales has a very strong and a long history in semiconductors, but I guess it's only since about 2015 or 2016 it's really been recognised. I was part of the founding team of a company called IQE, which manufactures wafers, but we have other large-scale manufacturing parts of the process within the south-Wales region. Around about 2015 or 2016, it was actually a Welsh Government sponsored mission, which was called the Regional Entrepreneurship Acceleration Program, which involved a delegation to Massachusetts Institute of Technology. And, actually, MIT, in a report, identified one of the key strengths of Wales as being compound semiconductors. 

One thing I would add to the previous comments is that most semiconductors involve either memory—storage of data—or processing of data. Most of that occurs either in North America, or, in particular now, in Taiwan and Korea, but, actually, without other types of semiconductors, called compound semiconductors, which provide the sensors, the power, electronics and other features that are essential to today's electronic equipment, the rest of the semiconductor industry would not work. So, Wales actually plays a very key role in this specialist form of semiconductors, which makes up around about 10 per cent of the total semiconductor market, and it's quite distinct from the silicon-based technology that we all hear about, and it's something that Wales has had a key strength in for the last 40 years. And, actually, the global nature of that, and promoting this around the world, is becoming more important, because the competitive threat of the landscape is changing quite drastically with trade considerations and also with the funding that's going in to reshore the semiconductor industry in places like North America and in Europe. So, we need to make sure we maintain that profile so that it's not lost.

Thank you so much.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. If I can follow on from that point, then, obviously, in terms of the strategy, the compound semiconductors are identified as a priority sector, so I presume you're pleased to see that it has that elevated status. How important is it that that's maintained?

It's very important in the current climate we have, with shifting supply chains. And, I guess, since America and China have been conducting a full trade war in semiconductor technologies for the last five or six years, it's become even more important that Wales maintains its position, and not just the position, but the awareness of the capabilities that we have and how we're keeping up with technology. We have worked very closely with the Welsh Government over the last, well, certainly 40 years, but more recently undertaking trade missions and being part of the strategy in terms of taking part in trade shows and events with the Welsh Government, and working with some of the overseas officers, particularly in North America, Brussels and Japan.

Thank you. Do you want to—?

Yes, please. Thank you. I think the comments about shifting the global supply chains are very important here. The one thing that has shifted considerably in the last couple of years, but particularly the last few months, of course, is, I think, this whole supply chain has to be understood from three perspectives. One is the importance of security and trust in the design of these products and chips, and this is important because we've seen a number of unfortunate examples, and very clear examples, where it has been exploited and weaponised by nation states. So, the importance of that security and trust has to be reinforced, and once again, the capabilities we have in Wales alongside the wider skills and capability around security and trust and resilience is something that has to be joined together. And so that's one.

The second thing, of course, also is that what we're seeing is an economic imperative around the sovereignty around these supply chains. So, no longer is it about having the capability, but it's about having it in the right place. So, the comments about different geographies, and the fact that Wales is aligned in a number of ways—we're close to Europe, we also work very closely with colleagues in North America, parts of Asia, the number of trade missions that were mentioned—exactly. They have reinforced those skills. So, having a geography that is trusted, which is reliable, which is devoid of dramatic political shifts, as you might see across the pond, is very important.

And finally, the other imperative here, which has become very clear, is national security. So, no longer is this about economic competitiveness, but it is also about having that sovereignty over the supply chain. Also, having the technology-related skills and capability directly feeds into national security in terms of the increasingly digital nature of a number of infrastructures, of products, of defence systems, and critical national infrastructure that depends on this. So, if we apply that lens increasingly so going forward, I think it is going to be very important. But equally, it's also an opportunity for Wales.

So, do you have a view in terms of what the Welsh Government should be doing, more than they are at present, or in terms of, as well, where they should be looking to establish priority relationships? 

More so than they're doing at present is where I would start, and I'm glad you've picked up on this. There are two very clear things that we need to be doing more of. One is we need to be sensitive to the global environment, more so, and position Wales unashamedly that we are a trusted geography, we have a set of capabilities and skills that are unique, and that we are ready to play a role in this supply chain, which is distinct, and that's why we are a good place to invest, more so for the future. So, I think that very clear messaging, or re-messaging, has to, as my colleague said, be very sensitive to the fact that there are trade wars happening and so on, and we need to position ourselves very clearly, because what we've realised in global economics is that the last three or four years since COVID, a number of these big investments have been held back in terms of semiconductors, or they've been repurposed or redirected in different geographies. So, there's an opportunity here, but it's time limited, because at some point, there are competitive forces from other parts of the world that are recognising this, and they'll step forward, and these are huge investments.

So, in a sense, we need to really step up, and that stepping up means that the Welsh political leadership and the industrial leadership all need to be hand in hand. So, this is my second point: there's a lot of good co-ordination, thanks to what my colleagues like Chris and others do. We need more of that. I think we need a more substantial, a more co-ordinated strategy that brings in universities, that brings in start-up companies, that brings in the fresh innovation, that takes the risk. We need big organisations, big tier 1, tier 2 engineering organisations setting up units and so on, and to then align them under the Welsh umbrella.

And led by Welsh Government—that leadership role by Welsh Government. 

I think from time to time the Government imperative has to be there, because these are multimillion and billion dollar potential investments, and if we are to step up to that big game, then of course they would—. Some of these big organisations are so big that their turnover is bigger than national budgets, right, which is a fact. So, we have to, absolutely. 

Thank you. Chris, do you want to come in on this point?

Yes, just to add to that, TSMC, the Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company Limited, is expanding globally. It needs to open up in America to gain access to or keep access to the American markets, and its new site in Arizona is a five-year project before it comes online at a cost of $40 billion. Now, I'm not suggesting that that's what we will have in Wales, and our sub-sector, if you like, is certainly less expensive than the silicon technologies that are being developed there, but we do need that co-ordination and a lot more joined-up thought. We come together quite frequently with the Welsh Government, as I say, at events like trade shows and in hosting events around trade shows, certainly in California, Taiwan, Japan, and we've had a really good presence there, but I think we need a lot more joined-up thinking.

Also, my suggestion would be to look at the supply chains that semiconductors feed into, because we're very keen to attract start-ups, scale-ups and foreign direct investment into the region, but actually, rather than shipping the semiconductors around the world three or four times, it would be great if we had some of the producers that use semiconductors in the UK, and ideally within Wales. One example that I would quote is that the Semiconductor Industry Association in North America estimates that for every job in the semiconductor industry, it creates 5.7 jobs in the downward supply chain. We saw the effect of that during COVID, where a lack of supply, or a perceived shortage of supply of semiconductors, brought the car industry to its knees and cost the industry, in 2021, $250 billion, just because they couldn't get certain chips.

So, it is a very integrated industry. It has high value, but unfortunately most of what we produce in Wales, around 98 per cent, is actually exported, and most of that goes outside of Europe, and so those 5.7 jobs in the downward supply chain are being created elsewhere. It would be great to be able to capture some of those in Wales and the UK. So, a strategy that brings that together and encourages supply chain companies in healthcare, artificial intelligence, robotics, all of those areas that use semiconductors, and in particular compact semiconductors, is a great opportunity, and I would like to see much more in the strategy about how we can leverage the power that we have in semiconductors.  

Thank you. So, if I may summarise, so we're clear here, pleased that it's got an elevated status, but more detailed planning and support needed to really maximise these opportunities. Would that be a fair summary?

Yes, absolutely.

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Chair. Were you involved in the development of the key industry experts in terms of the Welsh Government's international delivery plan at all? And if you weren't so much, why not?

Not so much with the plan, but certainly the development of the strategy in 2020, working with, obviously, the current First Minister on that, and we were very active in making sure that Ministers were aware of what was happening within the industry. I was actually with the Minister for, I think it was international development at the time, Eluned Morgan, in California, and introduced her to a number of partners, one of whom has now located into Wales. So, it was actually very important to be involved with that. But in terms of the development of the plan, we were actually not aware of the development, so whether we missed the consultation, but we were certainly involved in the development of the strategy back in 2019, 2020.

Professor Shaikh. 

No, I was not involved in it. 

What potential does Wales's technology sector have to attract inward investment? Because I note that technology doesn't feature in the plan's 15 key aims, so what potential in that regard does the technology sector have to attract that inward investment that we need?

So, I think we need to explicitly—. Going forward, we need to explicitly state that. My particular imperative here of course, as I articulated earlier, is simply not just the technology; it's the geography and the wider imperative. So, could I just maybe use this just to say what we are currently doing, if that helps?

So, I'm working very closely with the Welsh Government trade representatives based in Düsseldorf, in Germany. Germany is our largest export market, overall—£2.9 billion, I believe—and Europe is obviously a big trading partner for us here in Wales. We are proposing a trusted electronics, a cluster, a council, essentially. The focus of the trusted electronics piece would, essentially, be around the trusted geography, the skills and the capability, the national security and wider imperatives, as such, and so on. And the idea really here is that we set that up in very close collaboration with colleagues from Germany, different tier 1 and original equipment manufacturing organisations, not just from automotive, but from defence and a few from a few other sectors, to then see how we build in future investments, or potentially attract foreign direct investment, aligned with that joint messaging.

So, the one final thing, just to add to that, going forward, I think we simply cannot articulate that message just for Wales. We'll have to do this in close partnership and close alliance with colleagues from Europe, for example, just because there is a very clear joined-up realignment, given the shifts in North America and given the shifts, the competitive forces, from other parts of the world, to say that we are working closely, that no single nation can really do this. That's why I think it's very important that we rearticulate that, in collaboration, in very strong collaboration with some key geographies, and, in this instance, we are working very closely with Germany.

And how does that represent things like technology jobs and industries within Wales? Because, obviously, I've often criticised the Welsh Government's lack of investment in research and development, for example, and those key things that can aid investment, particularly in places like Newport and some border cities that could potentially have the economic factors that could attract that investment, jobs, and all—everything that goes with it. So, in terms of that, what do you believe that the Welsh Government could do better in terms of attracting that investment into Wales as a specific area?

If we could articulate that we have a consensus on a certain imperative like trusted, for example—I've talked about trusted electronics—and we can demonstrate that there is potential FDI, but also value-add from some of these international partners, that should be the basis for a stronger investment case for Welsh Government. I think that link, as such, is very important to make, which is what I'm working towards. But, yes, beyond that, of course, that becomes then a basis for Welsh Government to channel funds into this.

And what do you believe that the—

Just before you continue, I'll check if Mr Meadows wants to come in on this.

Yes. Sorry, I didn't see.

Thank you. To add to that, I would say that, one, we have been successful working with Welsh Government on attracting a limited number of FDI organisations. Most recently, Cadence have announced that they're setting up a design centre within Centre 7, the Welsh Government building in Cardiff. That will employ around 30 engineers, so it's relatively small scale. But I think we need to elevate our pitch, if you like, through marketing and promotion, both within Wales and external to Wales.

I recall an anecdote: you may know Peter Snow, the Channel 4 broadcaster, and I hosted him at part of our cluster meetings, and he came to one of the wafer fabrication centres, and his first comment was, 'Well, who would have thought this was happening in Wales? I thought it was all steel and sheep, and so on.' So, we're not known for technology, and I think there is a role to market and to push, including internally, because it's a an issue recruiting and encouraging STEM subjects within schools, to go on to universities and then to come into the industry. There's a lack of awareness that we are a technology nation, but there is an awful lot of great technology going on within the region. So, I think some assistance from the Welsh Government in how we promote Wales, and how we promote it as a technology nation, would be a great boost. 

Yes, because the way I look at it in terms of where we were in the late 1980s and part of the 1990s was that we were actually innovative in what we did in terms of that technology, in terms of hosting such global corporations as Sony, and others as well, in places like Newport, Bridgend, et cetera. So, you know, the way that the public would maybe view it is that we've sort of gone backwards in time in terms of our technology output and being those leaders within that. So, what messages would you give to the Welsh Government in that regard, to say, well, where we were 35, maybe 40 years ago compared to now, and how we can sort of generate that more holistic sort of approach from the Government in terms of how they view and see technology, from its past, and what it can give to Wales, given its past, in those future regards, in terms of that research and development funding that we really crave here in Wales?

We've been working with WJEC on some of the curriculum development, and we'd really like to make sure that technology is included on the curriculum, which then gets to students—young students—but also, hopefully, the message is then passed through to parents. But I think it is really about messaging. Another anecdote is that I spoke to, many years ago, someone who was a headteacher of a very large school in Bridgend, actually, and when I mentioned semiconductors and technology, his comment was, 'Oh, manufacturing, well, that's dead. We don't do that any more in Wales.' So, it's about perceptions and making sure that we can get those messages through, at all levels, to parents, to teachers, to say that we are a technology nation, we still have great technology. Yes, some of the Japanese inward investors have gone, but we still have Sony; yes, it's a much smaller scale. But also with the semiconductor sector, a lot of work going on in cyber security, in AI, and it's really about messaging and making sure that it's seen as one of the priorities through both Welsh Government websites and other activities that go on. In much the same way, I would even suggest maybe an advertising campaign, a little like Visit Wales, to encourage what's happening within the sector, within the region.

Professor Shaikh.

Thank you. I couldn't agree more. I think the focus on the early part of the skills and talent pipeline on raising awareness is incredibly important, and I say that as a university professor/lecturer. When we're addressing students and addressing the audience, I think, very often, I am surprised as to how unaware some of the early career—well, mostly, not entirely, but mostly a lot of the early career—young audience are, who are unaware of the fact that a lot of these supply chains are linked up. We cannot just compete on our own. We have to be part of that global value ecosystem and work in harmony, and have consensus around technology standards, for example, and regulation, and so on. And that awareness campaign, whether it's a media campaign or a much deeper campaign, and that effort to co-ordinate and join up those different players, I think, is very important.

I'll just give one example, which is something that we've recently put out in a press release, and going back to Gareth's point earlier about investment. So, we're obviously having to compete nationally and internationally for competitive funding, as such, already. But, in Ebbw Vale, we have Thales's National Digital Exploitation Centre, and Swansea University and us, we recently secured £1 million-worth of funding from UK Research and Innovation to set up a prosperity partnership. And the prosperity partnership is not just led by a key research and development objective, but also by the impact on local skills, growing local talent, and offering local employment opportunities as part of that.

We need more of this. That's just one example. But I think we need more and more joined-up thinking where we in the university could argue that we're working hand in hand with cutting-edge technology and industry to send out that positive message. Because I think we need to restore that confidence and enforce that confidence in a lot of people coming into the higher education system, and the education system overall, that we are not lagging behind and so on.

Thank you for that. Thank you so much. Gareth, because we've got 20 minutes left and two other Members who haven't spoken, would you be happy if we moved on?

Yes. 

Is that okay?

Thank you for that answer.

Just a few questions; you covered a few points I wanted, but you mentioned elevate our pitch, promote Wales as a technology nation, you mentioned the need for a more substantial strategy and more alignment with Welsh Government. All those seem to be indications that we're really missing the boat on this, that we've not actually raised the issue of what we can do, what we are doing and what our potential is to a sufficient level. So, I suppose the first thing is: what has been your engagement with the international strategy overall? Is it just something you've become aware of or is it something you've had any direct input into and engagement with?

Professor Shaikh first.

If I—.

Oh, yes; forgive me. Professor Meadows, you started speaking, so—

I don't mind which—

—yes, go for it.

Sorry. We have had significant engagement, certainly, in the development of the strategy back in 2018, 2019, and worked very closely with Welsh Government. Certainly, I'd highlight the Brussels office, the California office—going back a while in San Francisco—but also in Japan; a great deal of support from Japan in collaboration. One thing that's important within our industry sector is collaboration, both within Wales and internationally, and a lot of that has been enabled through the overseas offices, and we'd certainly like to see more with that.

One issue that we've had, and I understand there may be some confidentiality issues on who Welsh Government is speaking to about foreign direct investment and so on—. But there's been some disconnect. And in particular, I know that, last year, there was a big effort into India. Now, from our perspective, India is very young and actually underdeveloped, and I note the SEMI organisation actually told us not to be involved at this stage, because they're still finding their feet and they're looking at different parts of the supply chain. So, there was a disconnect there.

And also, in terms of the messaging, I've quite often been to events where we're talking about semiconductors and then there's an umbrella view that we're also involved in all these other areas, so we specialise in everything, rather than, 'These are our', maybe, 'three key sectors.' And so sometimes the messaging gets a little bit mixed. So, I think there needs to be more engagement from both sides, but certainly with the industry bodies from Welsh Government.

So, we do enjoy close engagement, but I think there are sometimes strategies—sub-strategies and plans—being developed without consulting with the industry sector, and when I say 'industry sector', I include academia, prototyping development, through to manufacturing.

Yes. Professor, anything to add?

Thank you. Professor Shaikh.

I have nothing to add, except just to repeat one point earlier: the world has changed substantially in the last three or four years, and I think the earlier point about the need for trust, and not just the national security imperative, but also the geographic imperative, I think is very important. And I think, going forward, we need to be mindful of that. Because that messaging now and that realignment of the supply chains that was mentioned earlier, that's going to happen, and we would have to position ourselves very strategically.

I wonder if you could expand on that a little bit, actually, to just get an understanding of it. I see the strategy—. You know, 60 per cent of mobile phones in the world include a microchip made in Wales. Okay, we tell the world. What exactly is it we're meant to be telling the world? I know there have been, in the past, very significant and clever advertising promotions of technology and engineering. We still all have in mind, don't we vorsprung durch technik or whatever it is from the German car industry and so on. Is it something like that that we actually need, just to be going out and saying, 'Look at what we're doing; this is absolutely cutting edge and—' et cetera? Is that what we're not doing that we could be doing or should be doing?

I think the investment in cutting edge and R&D, as I said earlier, that's definitely very important, and that needs to be reinforced. But that needs to be demonstrated then and championed, as to say, 'This is the kind of research that is happening, and this is how it's aligned as such and so on.' My other point briefly here would be that I keep using the word 'trust', and maybe let me detangle it. Investors would want a politically and economically aligned geography and a place where they could invest because they could see less risk and less uncertainty. Bigger organisations across the supply chain would want to see that commitment to skills, the local employability and the talent pool as such and so on, but also other parts of the value chain in the same vicinity or geography and so on. And finally, I think, in terms of national security, we would want to be seen as credible and aligned with the geography that we are as such a part of. And we just need to re-emphasise that very clearly and to say that we understand all of these things together. And that's why the notion of trusted electronics, which I keep mentioning, is something that we are running with now to say, 'We are trustworthy, and this is the place to invest therefore.' But, obviously, it needs to point to a number of those dots coming together. So, all I'm saying is that the world has changed substantially, and we just need to be sensitive to that in terms of our messaging.

And of course, the world is continually changing, isn't it, month by month, we see that. In terms of—

Mick, forgive me, I think that Mr Meadows wants to come in.

Oh, I beg your pardon, sorry.

I was just going to re-emphasise that intellectual property is a key factor in development and manufacturing processes around semiconductors, and actually we are seeing one of our big unique selling points is the trust issue, in that customers need to work and collaborate with partners in the cluster, for example, on handing over, if you like, designs and technology, and they need to be certain that that's not going to go to their competitors or be used in other areas that they shouldn't be. So, we've demonstrated that over the last 40 years, and that's actually one of the key selling points that attracts customers to manufacturers within the region, and I think that's certainly something I would concur that we need to promote and sell, because there is a lot of distrust dealing with certain other nations. So, that's a unique selling point.

That sounds an important point. What is the role of the Brussels office, then, in this? What engagement do you have with that? What role does it play? What role could it play? Is it the right place to be doing some of this work, particularly the amount of investment in terms of research, especially what's happening in terms of the geopolitical situation as well, the funds being made available for all areas of research, technology, defence and so on? Is the Brussels office the right location for us to be, and do we invest sufficiently in it for this purpose?

It's certainly one of the offices. As I say, Japan, North America and Brussels have been quite key. There's a major international conference—. There are two conferences. One is going on this week in New Orleans—it moves around the United States. We're represented there. And there's another one that I chair in Brussels every year, and we have support from the Welsh Government and the office for that industry conference, but also, from Brussels, in the Netherlands, in Germany, and also one of the big events is SEMICON in Munich, SEMICON Europa. And we've had support from the Brussels office for that also, as well as the Germany office. So, we have engaged. We've made a number of contacts through the Brussels office that have been very fruitful. And we've had a number of links with Flanders, who have—. In fact, there are quite a few semiconductor clusters around the Netherlands, around Flanders, and also developing in other regions, and so Brussels has been key in introducing us to those.

Is there sufficient resource going into this area from Welsh Government? 

I think there has been, yes. I would agree. I'd say that's not in question.

And are there any particular countries you would say, in terms of really good practice, 'Look at what they're doing there. This is what we should be doing as well', or—?

I would add Taiwan, but only in terms of the promotion of what it does, and, in some ways, that’s largely because of the larger organisations, like Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company Limited, a manufacturing organisation. But when you go to trade shows in Taiwan, quite often, one day of those events is dedicated to trips from schools, and schoolchildren actually take part, and they’re really intrigued. And when you ask them what they want to be, they want to be a semiconductor engineer. I’m sure if you went into any school anywhere in Wales or the UK it wouldn’t even be on the list; they wouldn’t know what it is. So, again, this is all part of the messaging and marketing. And yes, it’s certainly helped by TSMC being—the world’s largest semiconductor manufacturer—on their doorstep. But I think there are mechanisms we could use in terms of marketing and promotion within Wales to create the same messaging.

Did you—?

I just want to add on the geographies. So, the colleague has mentioned Japan. There’s also South Korea. There are also other geographies like Vietnam, Indonesia, which are emerging, and the gulf states. So, the other thing just to briefly mention here is that, because we’ve been able to demonstrate the work that we’ve done so far, there are these emerging regions and emerging economies who are rich, who are determined, who have a talent pool. And once again, it will make sense—. Back to the earlier point about a global supply chain, if this is where the future is, then we should work more closely. And there is more, perhaps, or different things, to offer here, as to how do we set up the communities and the clusters, and, that alignment that we’ve demonstrated so far, how do we then promote that and help other ecosystems build on that, as such? So, I think that’s something to consider as well.

Okay, thank you. 

Okay, thank you. Could I check: would it be all right if you stayed for an extra five minutes at the end, until 10:10, both of the witnesses? Thank you so much. I'm keen for us to go to—. Forgive me, Gareth, I know you wanted to come in on a question, but because we've got such little time, is it okay if you come in at the end?

Yes, sure. 

So, we'll go to Hannah. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I think, Professor Shaikh, in your earlier evidence, you touched on—I think you said—the dramatic political shift across the pond, and the impact that what is happening globally, and geopolitical uncertainty, has. What do you think the impacts could be on Wales of the current international tensions surrounding technology, particularly AI? I’m thinking specifically in relation to countries like the US, and, potentially, China.

Okay, thank you. So, I think there are a few things that are emerging as key themes going forward in the technology communities, and in the technology policy communities, that are important. So, for example, for AI, it’s becoming more important that the infrastructure that supports AI, and the algorithmic sovereignty, in terms of design and in terms of having that ecosystem to sustain it, is something that we need to be more and more mindful of, as to where it is. So, the legal jurisdiction and the physical geography underpinning that is being questioned.

So, once again, if Wales is in that conversation as the potential geography, as the country where we are trustworthy, we have the right skills, we have the right leadership to say, ‘This is where we can play, and we can host’, then there is an opportunity here for us to position this.

So, the only other thing just to say here is that what we’re seeing now is what the experts are calling 'weaponised interdependence'. And this is a bit of a term that’s worth unravelling. This is where countries—without naming countries—who hold the key infrastructures like the data centres, or who hold the sovereign patents and technologies or designs in certain areas, or who have manufactured certain defence systems or critical infrastructure systems and so on, are now using that ownership, that geopolitical advantage, for manipulating and influencing various political decisions and the geopolitics. And we need to be mindful of that, and, increasingly, particularly the European colleagues and the European wider ecosystem and nation states are very mindful of this, and, as such, we have an opportunity to say, ‘We are a much more neutral, trustworthy independent geography here, with the right skills and capability, and we have a role to play.’

What role would you say the Welsh Government has in terms of navigating that and how it could best continue to support the Welsh sector? Obviously, we are part of that bigger ecosystem, as you say. So, are there any thoughts or any advice you would give to the Welsh Government in terms of how best to approach that?

So, two areas, which I think I'm just re-articulating, but, perhaps in the context of this question, one is that co-ordination between the local skills and capability that we have between the organisations that we've mentioned, and my colleague has mentioned, but also the start-ups, the universities, and that whole joined up kind of co-ordination. But, politically, just demonstrating that we are investing more, but also politically we are more nuanced in terms of the political alliances, as such, and so on. So, if we are mindful of that shift and we can reinforce that messaging in that context, I think it would be ideal for us to be able to do that.

Unfortunately, it's just become the fact that the work that I do in my labs is now seen through a political lens as to who I am and where I'm based. If the Welsh Government positions us in a credible way, then that helps my work, but helps the whole ecosystem. I think what we are trying to promote here is to say the right messaging and the right level of co-ordination.

Thanks. Mr Meadows, do you have anything to add to that point?

All I would say is another branch to this is, actually, working closely with and maybe lobbying—if that's the right word—Westminster, because, ultimately, I understand there is a UK national strategy, which was launched in 2023, for semiconductors, but it seems to have been put on the back burner. So, it would be ideal to have some sort of acknowledgement, if you like, of the role that Wales plays in a UK strategy and to make sure that we're reinforcing that message at Westminster, because the two seem to have drifted apart to some extent. 

Thank you. Chair, just one final quick question from me that just links to that answer, then. How would either of you like the Welsh Government to capitalise on Wales's tech sectors in its international relations beyond 2025 and into the future?

I'd really like it to be selling Wales as a technology nation and to strengthen based on the USPs that we already have, mainly to up the game, because, as my colleague mentioned, the US has committed $52 billion to supporting the industry, Europe €43 billion, and the UK strategy was £1 billion. So, it's a drop in the ocean, but if we're smart with that and if Wales can make sure that it has its fair share to promote the industry, then I think we can leverage a lot more from that.

Professor Shaikh.

Yes, just to refine that point, really, the only other thing I think we should perhaps pay attention to, as part of that leadership and investment in the R&D and so on, is there will be certain infrastructures—the kind of evaluation labs, the kind of regulated, authorised testing and evaluation facilities—that we should invest in. And that level of detail will only emerge if the international strategy is defined to a depth where it can articulate that. So, that's something just to be mindful of—that investment would have to follow very carefully.

Thank you so much. Gareth, you had a question.

Thank you. It was in response to the comments made about confidence and what needs to be achieved in terms of having sustainable investment in Wales. It's a question, really, about what Wales has to do in order to do that. Obviously, as a politician, I look at it through a political lens. The structure of the Senedd elections and local authority elections are pretty stable in relation to other nations, shall we say. So, in that regard, whatever hue the Government is, there is that electoral structure in Wales that is more predictable and investable, in a way, than maybe some other nations. So, what, really, does Wales have to do in that sense in order to attract that investment and make it better economically in terms of attracting that investment in regard to, perhaps, other nations that you're comparing to that have less stability within their structures as nations?

So, two things, perhaps, which we maybe haven't touched on—certainly one of them. One thing, I think, at a political level, could be achieved and articulated in some way. I talk about co-ordination, but if we look at some of the other geographies, countries in Europe, of course North America and so on, the role of technology and technologists side by side with the key political figures is a great symbol. So, who would have thought we would have Elon Musk standing beside the President of the United States and openly selling stuff? But this is the reality if you go to geographies, for example, in India or in the Gulf and so on. So, I think, perhaps, that very front, political kind of messaging and showcasing has to shift, first of all. 

And secondly—and this, I think, is a very important point—when I'm working with my colleagues in Munich or in other parts of the world, very often the lunch time conversations or the dinner time conversations are about the culture, about the receptive nature of the local population, as to how they are. So, post Brexit, obviously, we've had to work on the whole PR thing, as to how we kind of manage that. Once again, I find a lot of the local population are very well aware, but perhaps not as much as we could be, of the nature and the role of the global supply chains, as we talked about earlier, but also, culturally, are we seen as welcoming enough for colleagues from Japan, Korea, India or other geographies who can then come here, work here? Because, obviously, there's a whole cultural underbelly to this economy, with highly mobile talent, people would come from all over the world, would bring their families, would want to thrive here, and then, of course, the cultural perception—how technology is perceived, are people excited, the earlier conversation about schools and colleges and that kind of messaging, but also, then, the broadcast media, the public campaigns and Visit Wales. So, Visit Wales, but maybe not just for the castles and the beauty and so on, but for the whole technology investment that we've done—I think, once again, the school visits, for example, and so on. We have to pay attention to that. I noticed the word 'culture' in this committee, and I think that culture needs to go hand in hand, because technology brings its own culture. It's incredibly global, it's diverse, it's changing, and it's also political now as well. So, I think, at a political level, we would really welcome that kind of intervention.

I'm sorry to do this to you on such a big question, but I'm afraid we've only got a minute left. So, if there's anything very condensed that you wanted to add on that huge question, please.

I would simply echo the same and say that we are a trusted nation. We are ethical, the way we do business, and that should really be foremost in how we sell Wales, in that we have the expertise. One of the big questions we're asked when trying to encourage companies to visit us is, 'Do we have the skill set?' And we do have pipelines. Yes, there are shortages, yes, there's work to be done, but every other nation, possibly with the exception of Taiwan, has exactly the same issues. And I think, in many ways, we are leading the pack on that. So, we need to promote that.

Thank you, both, so much for what has truly been a fascinating session this morning—really, really enriching.

A transcript of what's been said will be sent you to check that it's an accurate reflection of what's been said. There might be some technical things that we might want to follow up with you in writing. But we're very grateful to you both for your evidence, and for giving us that extra time as well. 

Thank you so much. Members, we will break for five minutes. I'm afraid we do have to be back at a quarter past for the next session to start, so please don't be longer than five minutes.

Thank you, both, so much for your evidence. Diolch.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I'm Patricia Yates. I'm CEO of VisitBritain.

Could you talk us through, please, what relationship if any you have had with the international strategy, and what, as far as you are aware, you think has worked well, and whether there are any areas for improvement in terms of how that is being implemented?

Tourism is a devolved power. I report to the Westminster tourism Minister, who happens to be a Welsh MP, Chris Bryant. He has set a target for inbound visitors of 50 million visits by 2030, and is working with the industry on how to get a strategy to deliver that.

Wales has a seat on my board. We used to have Ian Edwards, who was a very active member for Wales. Michael Bewick has now taken over that position. We have a strategic partner arrangement with Visit Wales, which is of course in Wales—it's part of the Welsh Government. So, we would work with them, and we work very closely with them, on what campaigns we're looking at, what markets we're going to be focused on, and what product will come through those campaigns and we will be promoting. So, it's not an immediate relationship with the international strategy, it is more how we work with Visit Wales.

Thank you very much for that. Could I check? Do you—

As I mentioned, our relationship is with Visit Wales. Our focus is on the strategy as set out by the UK Government, so there has been a tourism recovery strategy and there is now a new strategy for the new target with the incoming Government. When it comes down to it, the relationship is personally very close, but also we are all looking to do the same thing. We are all looking for economic growth. We're all looking to spread that growth, whether regionally and by season, and we're all looking to build the soft power that tourism delivers in international markets. So, although I don't have a direct relationship with that strategy, I have a very close relationship with Visit Wales. And actually we have found, particularly since COVID, that our ambitions are so aligned that it has become a very close and productive relationship.

Sian, just before Patricia, after this question—

Patricia, forgive me. Please answer Siân's question. I'm so sorry. I was just explaining to Siân that we'll be going to Mick for a supplementary. 

I think the reality is that ambitions are very closely aligned. Money is incredibly tight, and so we are looking at what markets we focus on and where we focus our activity. VisitBritain is active in 20 markets. We have great funding, which is our major source of international funding, which has been focused in five markets. Those closely align with what Visit Wales has been focused on. We've been focused on USA, France, Germany, Gulf Cooperation Council countries and Australia.

You may have seen we've just had a 40 per cent budget cut, so we will be pulling out of Germany. Visit Wales are aware of that and Germany is obviously one of your prime markets. We have never marketed in Ireland, which I know again is one of your primary markets, because there was an agreement a few years ago that the nations would do that. So, Wales and Scotland promote directly into those markets. There's a lot of discussion and grown-up decision making about making sure that we are all spending public money most effectively.

I would say, on falling through the gaps, there's never enough money to do everything, so there's always that as an issue. But we are all very mindful of the fact that we have to use public money as effectively as we can—so, to be complementing not competing and to be selling, broadly, the same story, and to be working together to make all our campaigns as effective as they possibly can be.

Thank you, Patricia. We'll just go to Mick for the supplementary, and then we'll come back.

Just on that, about 12 or 13 years ago, I remember a scrutiny session involving VisitBritain, and we were quite critical of the way in which Wales was presented within some of the website stuff. Obviously, that improved very substantially; in fact, I think it began to improve during the session itself. But on the alignment between the Welsh side and VisitBritain, is VisitBritain effectively VisitEngland? If tourism is devolved, how does that relationship actually work? Because it seems to me the accountability to Westminster has got to be, effectively, for England, but, of course, tourists don't go into one area looking in terms of divisions, and so on. So, how does that actually work and get co-ordinated? But also, who is actually on your board? You say there's a Welsh seat on the board; who is that person, and how are they appointed?

Shall I start with the last bit first, because that's the easiest?

Please, yes. Sorry for rambling over a bit.

Michael Bewick is on the board. He's from Gwynedd. Do you know him? He has the property that the zip wire is on, and the slate caverns.

Sorry, can you say who it is again?

Michael Bewick. He is put on our board by the Welsh Government—it used to be Ian Edwards, who was obviously Celtic Manor and very interested in business tourism. He has, I think, been to a couple of board meetings now. He's a very active and engaged board member.

I'm sorry, I've nearly forgotten the initial question. How is it decided? I think COVID has made a real change, because tourism was absolutely decimated and we have all been focused on how do you rebuild tourism quickly from international markets post that. There hasn't been the money that you would need to redo that from scratch, so, both in terms of a shared ambition and a shortage of money, we have worked together much more closely. If you look at our website—I think it was probably me, even 12 years ago—there was criticism. I would say that Wales are feeding through the content that appears on that.

We have launched the Starring GREAT Britain campaign, and we've committed to that for two to three years. The reason we've done that is because the industry—. We do the drive and the aspiration, the industry needs to do the sell. And to do the sell, the industry needs to be building the product, selling it to consumers and seeing the success of that.

If you think of somewhere like Wrexham, last year we brought over American tour operators. They built packages around Wrexham because the tv programme has led to demand from those markets, which they have seen as being very successful, and that has driven through. So, we are telling a story about Britain that is through the medium of film and tv because that has a huge emotional connection in international markets, and, obviously, the strength of international platforms. But that feeds through to that Welsh storytelling.

A challenge we all have is the welcome. There's the Wales campaign on croeso—they're launching that year. That absolutely addresses something that is an issue for us all, internationally—to make sure that we are seen as welcoming destinations and to compete with other countries who are seen as being more so.

Shall I just go through the statistics and then we can talk about those? If we talk about recovery, some 2019, and I'll start with official statistics, with the normal rider that they're very much a historic view. For the last rolling 12 months—we have July 2023 to June 2024—we have seen growth over that year, with 12 per cent up in visits, and spend up 8 per cent. However, it is the case that Wales hasn't yet recovered to 2019 levels, so visits and spend are both about 9 per cent below 2019 levels, and Wales has recovered slower than the UK total. The UK total visits is 2 per cent below, and spend is 9 per cent up.

To move away from official statistics and look at card spending data, which gives us something that's a little more immediate, we can see that 2025 has started well. In the first quarter of 2025, inbound card spending in Wales was up 9 per cent versus 2024, and that was above the total GB growth of 1 per cent. Looking back, inbound card spend to Wales in 2024 was up 6 per cent versus 2023, showing similar growth to the total GB level. So, you can see, when you judge how successful this has been, how tough it is to drive inbound visits, and, you know, the industry is only just back to 2019 levels, and Wales has not been quite as successful as other parts of the UK in driving those visits. I mean, the places where inbound visitors have come back most quickly are Scotland and, unsurprisingly, London.

So, the obvious question is: why?

I think some of it is practical: 'How do you get to Wales?' And if you look at routes at Cardiff, they tend to be short-haul routes, taking people out. We've started, and, indeed, have put investment money into gateway partnerships through Manchester into Wales; so, a Wales-Manchester partnership. So, I think that cross-border working would be very beneficial to Wales.

So, part of it is practical, 'How do people get here?', and the telling of the story of Wales and the image of Wales and driving that aspiration. Tourism is fiercely competitive and other tourist boards are investing much more than Wales and Britain put together. If you think that Tourism Ireland's budget is €70 million, mine is £10 million for international, and Wales's is probably—you'll have to ask Wales—but probably somewhere similar. So, getting cut-through in international markets is tough, and telling that coherent story and making sure that we are focusing on telling the same story, so that we're making a build and not competing.

[Laughter.] It's a political question—

It's a political question. I mean, Wales is part of Britain, so we will promote Wales. I—.

But does Wales get promoted sufficiently because it's part of VisitBritain and your emphasis, maybe, is on other parts—

Well, you could say that Wales has two cracks at it, because Wales has its own budget that it funds independently and it has a say in Britain and what it does. So, I would say that Wales has two cracks at it. And, yes, you could pull out of the relationship and say, 'Well, we're not going to co-operate with VisitBritain', but to what end? That means you just lose some power that you could have. And what we have that the nations don't have is we have the international network, who are building links with influencers. We've brought influencers over to Wales recently from different markets, who've been hugely successful. We have relationships with the trade, whether that's local tour operators or people like Expedia. They backed up our campaign with the 'Got the Shot' campaign, and they came to Wales and did a campaign about, 'Where would you go to tell the story—?' If you were filming a story about a Welsh mythical film, where would you go in Wales to get that story?

So, we work with operators and influencers and have those contacts in the international market that Wales makes use of, and when Members of the Welsh Senedd go out to markets, we would help them in engaging with international trade. And I know my friend here has talked about Osaka, and we're having a UK tourism day in Osaka, which the Welsh Government have been invited to be part of, when we are building—. We're inviting Japanese operators to hear the stories of the different nations and regions of Britain.

I would say Ireland absolutely should be a priority for the Welsh Government. The reason we've stood back on it is because Scotland and Wales said to us, actually, the Irish understand the Welsh and the Scottish brand, we don't need to go in there with the British brand. So, we've stood back to enable Wales and Scotland to promote their brands more clearly in those markets.

If you look at inbound travel to Britain and inbound travel to Wales, then you have to be going after the American market. The American market has really driven tourism recovery. Obviously there are some concerns about the financial situation in America and whether that certainty is going to continue. I have certainly locked our money into America for this year, so it will still be the market where we will be putting major investment. I've just said I've had a huge budget cut, so I've had to pull out of markets, and have pulled out of Germany because it's quite an expensive media market, because it's a very federated system. We've kept our funding into France to make sure we're getting full impact in France. It's still a priority market for Wales, it's still a priority market for us, I just haven't got the money to do it. And, yes, I do think Wales should continue to invest in those.

And then some of those long-haul markets, we would look to be lead on that because those are where you're using Britain to get the story of the nations understood. And when I get more money, I will be back in those markets.

Diolch, Patricia. Eluned.

Mick had a brief supplementary he wanted to ask.

Just on this point about America, which is an enormous market, and of course London, because it features in just about every Warner Brothers film or whatever—it's something about London, Edinburgh, historically. So, how does Wales actually get on the radar within that? Because what is it that is stopping—? I speak to quite a lot of Americans in London from time to time, and you ask, 'Where are you going? Where are you visiting?', and Edinburgh is often on there. Everywhere around London, et cetera, is on there. No-one really mentions Wales, other than in passing, et cetera. We don’t seem to be on that particular radar. We don’t seem to be part of either VisitBritain or to have even sold through Visit Wales as part of that. So, how does that—? How do we work out, how do we actually resolve that? Why is it that Americans aren’t saying, ‘Well, I’m going to go to Edinburgh, then I’m going to go to Cardiff gateway’ or ‘I’m going to go to north Wales’? Welcome to Wrexham is a particularly unique issue at the moment because of Netflix. I should, I suppose, declare an interest because my son works on it, but it’s a unique example as to why the Americans are going there. So, what is it that’s not working as far as, say, American tourists and Wales?

I think there is an issue with connectivity, both into Wales and within Wales—'How do you get around? How do you get from north to south?'—and making it easy for people to do that. I would say Welcome to Wrexham isn’t unique. It wasn’t actually what we used in the hero video for Wales; we used House of the Dragon. The billboard campaign on that was, 'It's not Westeros without Wales', and that was on Sunset Boulevard, on the Corniche in Jeddah and in the United Arab Emirates, and the Gare du Nord—so, hugely prominent.

I would say it’s a lot of hard work. It’s a lot of getting that aspiration to travel, using the culture and the stories and the people that we have about Wales to tell that story. For tourism then, it’s working with the trade to make sure that’s sold. Now, that can be big operators like Expedia, who will invest a lot of money and get it on platforms, and it can be working with tour operators to help them build packages that they can then sell, and we are indeed doing that.

So, I think we’re doing the right things. I think tourism should be called out—I know there are questions about the plan—and making sure that tourism is called out as the link. If visitors come, they are 16 per cent more likely to invest. You have a huge business events venue at Celtic Manor, which we work closely with, and our business events strategy is to attract industries that we’re actually trying to attract for investment. So, it’s not visitors for tourism; it’s people who are going to invest in life sciences, or in AI, or tech. It’s the Government's priorities of companies that they want to come. So, tourism is the link between soft power and investment, as well as having visitors. And I think that alignment and joining up, which has already been started, could and should absolutely be followed through in the plan and what comes after the industrial strategy.

What are your thoughts on this, Eluned? Is it just money? Is it just resource?

To a great extent, I think it is money and resource. You compare the amount of money we’ve got to do what we do in Wales—okay, we’re part of the Arts Council of Wales, not the Government—but our total budget, with staff included, comes under just £0.75 million. Culture Ireland, our sister agency in Ireland, have a budget of €8 million, and they’re within the Government. And I’m not necessarily saying that that’s the right structure for Wales as it’s a different context, but the increase in the budget for Culture Ireland has gone up 74 per cent in the last five years. And it’s not that we necessarily need to compete with Culture Ireland, but there are places where we can work more effectively with Culture Ireland.

I come back to the interest in what’s unique about Wales, especially in the arts and in our culture, and I do think that what we’ve created through the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 is really unique. There’s a lot of appetite internationally for learning about what we’ve done with that. Within our own new international strategy in Wales Arts International, we’ve just moved, as from last month, into measuring the impact of our work against the seven goals of the future generations Act. We’ve taken two years to be thinking about what those indicators might be, and this next year’s going to be testing them. Probably quite painful to an extent, because it hasn’t been done to date. But, in just considering some of the conversations that have been going on in this committee over the last couple of weeks around data and how do we capture the impact of our work. It's not just because of the investments that are coming back financially, although that is important. If we're working across how we're changing how we're working in Wales, those seven goals are really important.

Fragmentation is an issue, I'd say, not just across the UK but within Wales as well. Trying to achieve all that is being achieved within the international strategy is really—. It's aspirationally amazing to try and do that, but the reality is that there are a lot of different agencies with different responsibilities involved in delivering it. And with everyone facing the cuts that have been going on, especially in the arts, it makes it very challenging to be on top of all the briefs and know who's doing what, especially with the increase in interest in Wales. So, I think that there is a perfect storm in place, where the opportunities for us are significant, but the challenges—. And we've not even mentioned the work that is ongoing around just maintaining our rights for our artists to travel across Europe and the mobility issues and all of that. So, there's a whole load of issues just to maintain our place in the world, not even to grow that. So, yes, I'd say there's a lot of work that remains to be done.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. How were you involved, or what was the level of involvement, in the development of the international delivery plan with the Welsh Government? How were you able to influence that, if at all?

Well, we are a strategic partner with Welsh Government, and we were possibly more involved in the formation of the actual strategy itself in 2018 and 2019, where we convened the cultural sector and helped to input and put our thoughts to Government. And we specifically, back then, asked for a specific culture chapter to be in place as part of the international strategy. And although that wasn't adopted fully, we did welcome the fact that culture was embedded across the strategy. It's interesting to note also that, across the strategy and the action plan, there are nine cultural aims, which—. You have to go across all of the different action plans to find them, but the objectives, ranging from the creative industries, the centre of excellence, to promoting Welsh cultural identity, using arts and culture as diplomatic tools, highlighting the Welsh language, supporting Creative Wales, the well-being of future generations, these are big objectives, and I could talk about our role in all of those.

I've got to say that I think it was the right move to have an action plan now, and I think, by being a strategic partner, we have shared our experiences and input through the reports that we give to Government twice a year. We weren't directly involved in forming the delivery plan more than in the way that we report to Government.

Patricia.

No, we weren't involved in developing it. That would be Visit Wales. 

Yes. Is that a reflection—? Would you like to be involved more in that plan, or—? What are the general comments around that non-inclusion, then?

I think Visit Wales is the right body to do it, and then we and they would work together on delivery—[Inaudible.]

Yes. I'm just intrigued to know about that relationship, obviously, from a VisitBritain perspective, Visit Wales, and how, indeed, we work collaboratively with all of the relevant stakeholders to make sure that the things that the Welsh Government decide and the plan of action going forward are reflective of the views and the wishes of those appropriate bodies.

Yes.

Yes. Okay. What's your understanding of the relationship between the international strategy and the plan?

I think it's—. As I say, the plan has come about, from my understanding, to help to deliver for the last year of this Government, and it probably helps to refine all the actions that are covered off in the different action plans as well and to focus more on delivery. I think it has helped us—. One of the areas that is identified in there that has been helpful is the Year of Wales and Japan, where we have worked well with stakeholders across not just the cultural element, but also trade and export. And I think, on specific initiatives like that, having that reminder to deliver against an international strategy has been really helpful.

There probably could be, moving forward—. I've mentioned our new international strategy. Obviously, we are part of the Arts Council of Wales, so we have a responsibility to bridge what Welsh Government is doing and what Arts Council of Wales is doing and to support all who we fund in the sector to work internationally. So, measuring all of that against so many ambitions is probably too challenging, with the resources that are available within Government and externally. So, I think moving towards the focus is the right thing to do.

And is there anything in the plan that you think is not there that should be included? And do you have any views on those things that you might view have been omitted from that plan at all?

Good question.

I don't mean that in a political sense, just purely on the face of it and what the culture and tourism sector need at this current time?

I think the engagement in networks—Patricia was mentioning this earlier—. I think support for our sector to be involved in the wider international conversations is really important, whether that is through the form of grants, through the form of membership, through the form of bringing people into Wales. But I'd say the main thing for me is dealing with the fragmentation issue, because I think it's not anyone's desire to be fragmented, but there is a fragmentation, and just joining the dots between what we have in Wales and what we have on the UK level—. We work with the British Council, as the UK-wide partner, more than with VisitBritain, if you like, and we have years of experience of doing that, and it's a good relationship. And I would say that, even having those relationships, you still have a lot to do to try and establish and try and determine where the priorities are. So, greater focus, overcoming some of the fragmentation, and more resource—I think the resource issue goes across.

Yes. Patricia, any comments on that?

I think I would probably echo that. The industry is, by its very nature, fragmented; it's an industry of small businesses. So, pulling that together with a focus, where both private sector and public sector can understand what the ambition is and what their role is in its delivery. So, something like—very simple—about extending the season: are we going to do a campaign around driving visitors through the autumn to extend the season? And in my experience, the industry welcomes that level of clarity when that comes from Government bodies. So, helping industry to see how they can be part of it.

I would say—I know, particular pleading—as well that tourism needs to be really centre stage in this and should be considered at every level of decision making by Government. And when we all look at why do Scotland and Ireland do so well, it's because, over years, there has been that prioritisation of tourism in those countries, and that goes right through to the representation in Cabinet and the decision making that is made, because tourism decisions are never made in one single Government department. So, it is the cross working across Government, the joint ambition, and then interpreting that so that industry can get behind it as well, I would say.

Yes, thank you. Thank you, Chair.

And just for Members to be aware, we're into our final quarter of an hour. Mick.

I'm afraid I think all of the things I wanted to ask about have actually been answered, I'm afraid, by my interventions.

You pre-empted yourself. [Laughter.] Okay. Diolch, Mick. I didn't meant to scare you off—.

The issues arose as a result of other questions that were coming in.

I didn't mean to scare you off and say, 'Because we've got a quarter of an hour left, you're not allowed to ask questions.' Okay, diolch yn fawr. Well, in that case, we'll go straight to Hannah. If there's anything else that you wanted to ask at the end, Mick, you'd be welcome to come back in. Okay, Hannah.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. My first question is more to VisitBritain, and I take on board what you've already said in terms of not being involved with the development of the international delivery plan and Visit Wales being the right way to do that and to feed into Visit Wales. But how would you expect or how would you want any of your work to feed into the Welsh Government's approach to tourism in international relations beyond 2025—so, looking more to the future, anything that you think we could learn from and change and perhaps do differently, or the things that are working and we should build upon?

I think I would pull out focus, which markets, which people, what's the target—a target does clarify things for people—who are the right partners, then, to work with on that. I've mentioned cross border; I think, for Wales, cross border is really important to get visitors into Wales.

Perhaps I'll stop there. Perhaps I'll stop there.

Thank you. My final question should be quite to the point, but it's quite broad in a way, and I want to ask you: what is the one thing that you would like the Welsh Government to pursue in its future international relations, if you can boil it down to one thing? And that's to both of you.

Eluned.

Before we go on to Patricia,

Patricia, forgive me, Hannah's question originally was about the one thing you'd like the Welsh Government to pursue in terms of its international relations. You're welcome to also comment on what Eluned's been saying as well, but that was the original question.

Sorry—

No, it's my fault. I asked—. Well, it's not my fault, that was really important for us to hear and, actually, that's going to enrich what we're talking about here, having all of that detail.

Forgive me, Patricia.

I'll pick up on some of that. The most important thing to drive international visitors is that international visitors actually think they will be welcome. I'm going to do welcome as a big bucket. And what does that mean? That means looking at policies to attract visitors. Britain and Wales will never be cheap destinations. They have to be good value for money. Looking at the stories we tell, one of the strengths of Wales and Britain is our history and heritage, but that isn't a driver necessarily for visits now. When we're trying to get visits now, it's got to be something more than the history and the heritage. It's got to be a contemporary story that people can connect with. It's got to be about the experience for the visitor.

So, I would say it's making a welcoming environment for visitors and building that connectivity across the very fragmented landscape that there is in tourism to make things bookable and easy for visitors. That's a combination of the public realm, things like transport, but also policies, so things like package travel regulations, encouraging businesses to be able to work together so that they can offer a broader offer than just a singular hotel or just a singular attraction.

Mick, was there anything else that you wanted to come back in on?

No.

No. There's just one final question, if that's all right. Could you just talk us through, please, the work that you do with the overseas offices and how that compares with the work that you undertake with UK embassies and how they interact or are different from—?

Is that me?

Yes. Well, to either. I'll go to Patricia first, then.

In most cases, we're co-located in British embassies and we would regard ourselves as part of One HMG, so we would go to the ambassadors' meetings. We ask ambassadors to regard us as part of their family because we tend to have very small teams in international markets, so it helps if they're locked into that. So, we're employed on the Foreign Office platform. It tends to be that the Wales representatives are also on that platform, so that we would see them in that environment. So, I would say that we’re all in that umbrella of working together as One HMG in international markets.

Thank you so much. Eluned.

Thank you, both, very much indeed for the evidence this morning. Anything that's ever talking about the story that Wales has to tell the world is always going to be important to us as a committee. So, thank you so much.

I just wanted to raise the issue—. Obviously, I saw recently in the news that BBC Sounds are reducing S4C content and BBC Alba services. Given the success of the platform globally as BBC Sounds, it's a very user-friendly and accessible service to access for people, what would be your assessment of that and the current challenges that S4C faces as a result of that? Because, obviously, the whole proviso of digital services and enablement is to get people closer to those services, so why is the demand going up but then the services reducing within that context?

I'd be concerned about that, Mr Davies. I don't have any information about that. I'd need to look into it, and I can certainly get back to you about it. But I use BBC Sounds, and an awful lot of people do use BBC Sounds, and I would want Welsh content to have a very strong presence on it. So I would be concerned if that's what's happening.

Because ultimately, in terms of the Welsh language output, it should be more accessible in that regard, shouldn't it, in the ways that it's accessible to people of all ages, to see the output of what Wales is giving, and I think that should be, in some way, celebrated and enhanced, given those digital platforms and the output that it can achieve.

BBC Sounds is radio, as I understand it.

Yes, I think it might be Radio Cymru that's been affected by this, but—

That shouldn't really affect S4C, but I would certainly want to look into it, and I would be concerned if there was an impact.

Thank you very much. What is your assessment of the current workplace culture within S4C?

I've been very pleasantly surprised by the progress that has been made in the last year. There's been a huge effort internally using outside advice and support and expertise to develop a very strong and positive culture within the organisation. So, an awful lot of work has been done and I've been encouraged by what I've seen and heard in that regard.

I think as chair of the board, my role is to make sure that that new culture is fully embedded in the organisation and that we don't just think of it as something that has been dealt with, and we can therefore put it to one side. It's going to be an ongoing process of making sure that we have a strong culture and a positive, open and trusting, respectful culture, and I see that as one of my main roles as chair, to lead on that work.

How will you seek to ensure that S4C has a healthy working culture and an effective governance structure in place that underpins all of those ideas? 

First of all, by giving strong leadership and setting clear expectations in terms of behaviours, both at the board level and more broadly within the organisation. I do think that setting that culture of what we expect from people is incredibly important and needs to come from the top.

You do need to have a good whistleblowing policy that is effective, and that people have confidence in. It's no good having a piece of paper that tells you what the policy is if people don't trust it to work. So, that's something that's very important.

In terms of governance more generally, it's just having a very sound understanding of what governance means within an organisation like S4C—I think I have that understanding; I've got a strong background in governance and leadership—and making sure that we're delivering what's required in the correct way.

The reason I ask that is that I noted that you told the Welsh Affairs Committee recently that good governance is one of the things that

‘at the end of my term I would like to say had been achieved.’

Does that mean that there is not good governance in S4C at the moment? And what specific steps will you take during your time as chair to achieve that good governance?

I think there is good governance at S4C. I've been very well supported already by the chief executive and his team and by the board secretary, who is doing an extremely effective job. So, I feel that I am being very well supported and there is good governance. The outgoing interim chair has managed that process very successfully in the past year. So, I don't have any concerns about the governance, but I know that I've been appointed in order to make sure that S4C is in the best possible and strongest possible place to go forward and meet the challenges of the future. So, running an effective board is one of the key things that I want to do.

Just if I may, Chair, you did say in previous comments that those improvements are something that you would like to be achieved. So, that alludes to the fact that governance isn't where it should be, and your ambition is to improve that during your time as chair of S4C. So, what sort of culture and issues did you pick up, and where do you want those to be improved, and you can look back at the end of the term as chair and say, ‘We improved the governance there’? So, what's gone wrong, what's the line of improvement, and what point do you get to to say you've achieved what you've set out to do within those ambitions? 

I think in that response that I gave, I was referring to the very serious problems that S4C underwent in 2023. Since then, an interim chief executive and interim chair were put in place in order to move the organisation forward at a very difficult time, which they did very well, I think, and provided good leadership and stability. But that was an interim situation whilst a new chair was appointed. I think very good progress has been made within that period, and I've been very impressed with what I've seen. My job is to carry that forward and to provide the stability for the next four years of my term, which is what I intend to do. 

Diolch. 

Congratulations on your new role. I know we all wish you great success, because S4C is incredibly important within Wales. What are your thoughts about the performance figures, though? They've been obviously difficult. You've alluded to them a little bit. How do you see that?

I think it's something that we have to keep a very close eye on, because the whole point of S4C is to provide a service to Welsh speakers and learners and children, and we need to make sure that people want to watch what we're doing. It's a frustration, I think, for some of the production companies when they produce great content and maybe it isn't getting the audiences that they would like. So, I think keeping an eye on or being very mindful of viewing figures is really important, and people do worry about it. That's something that every public service broadcaster is very concerned about—how to maintain audiences.

I think it's worth pointing out that S4C has maintained its audiences very well in the past year or two. There hasn't been the drop that some other public service broadcasters have seen. And we've been building audiences in some important categories, like young people. There's been a successful show called Y Llais on S4C, which is The Voice franchise, and something like over half of the audiences have been under 45. That shows that we're cutting through to younger audiences, and hopefully you build on that success, but it's something that we always have to keep an eye on.

One of the things that's critical to that is visibility of what S4C does. This is something that this committee has been concerned about in the past—making sure that S4C's output is visible on smart tvs and all these other new platforms, because if people don't know it's there, they're not going to watch it. So, as well as making sure we produce brilliant content that's relevant to all our different audiences, we have to make sure that it's also visible. Those are the two really important things that we have to do in order to make sure that we maintain our audiences and deliver what we're there to do, which is to support the Welsh language and to support the creative economy.

Mick, if I may just jump in quickly.

I've got a couple of specific questions. One of them is the actual model itself. Many of us remember the politics and the campaign that led to the creation of S4C. Since then, you've had massive expansions in Welsh-medium education, and so on—there's a whole new generation of young people who are Welsh speaking, from all parts of Wales. You have the technological change, you have a lot more hybrid Welsh/Anglo-Welsh programmes, and you have subtitling—we see a lot more international stuff that's good quality, that you will watch irrespective of what language it's in. Is the model, in terms of the division between S4C and its interreaction with, say, BBC Wales, and so on, too rigid? Is that a model that needs to be looked at at all?

Well, it's worth noting that the new Media Act, the 2024 Act, has given us more flexibility in relation to our relationship with the BBC to develop new ways of working and building on the strength of both parties. So, I think that is something that we will want to look at. I don't know what that would look like but it gives us a new opportunity to look at things differently.

I think one of the things that S4C is doing well at the moment is reaching out to new audiences. I don't think you can overestimate the importance of having Welsh-medium content on people's apps and on their smart tvs and things, particularly when you're trying to build, and reach 'Cymraeg 2050'; it's absolutely critical. Programmes like Prynhawn Da and Heno, they're in people's homes, so people are listening and having Welsh around them in their homes in the way that they wouldn't otherwise. And for children and young people in particular, particularly children in non-Welsh-speaking families, to be able to get that content is incredibly important. So, I think the need for S4C is growing in a way because the audience is changing and the need is different.

Can I ask about the interreaction then? Obviously, the Welsh Government targets, in terms of Welsh speakers, and so on, the promotion. How do you see the interreaction with S4C and its engagement with, I suppose, the Welsh Government over that sort of strategy, because, on the one hand, it's about producing good-quality media that people just want to enjoy and watch in whatever language they're looking at it in, but also it is part of a broader cultural agenda as well, isn't it?

It is, and I think the two things can complement each other. I welcomed—. This was before I was appointed, but I thought the memorandum of understanding between S4C and the Welsh Government was positive and, in some ways, overdue, because S4C clearly does have a role in delivering 'Cymraeg 2050' and in providing resources for schools and children, and so on. So, to formalise that, I think, was a very good thing. I don't see a tension there; it's part of what S4C does, so it's just perhaps having a new focus on it. Since that memorandum of understanding, S4C has appointed somebody specifically to look after that relationship and to look after that commitment, in order to make sure that we're delivering what the Welsh Government has asked for. But I think we're going in the same direction anyway on helping to support the language, and particularly young children and new learners.

Can I ask finally, then, about funding, because the funding system, obviously, changed some time back in terms of the funding coming from the licence fee and so on? In real terms, the funding, since establishment—if the figures I've got are correct—is that you're basically 40 per cent, in real terms, less than you were when S4C was actually established. That is an absolutely enormous cut. It seems to be a greater cut than that's appeared anywhere else within media. What are your thoughts, then, in terms of the funding issue? I mean, is it the case that we are not funding S4C, or S4C is not being funded as it should be, in terms of all the things it's being asked to do, it's being required to do? Is there a sufficiently strong voice within the funding mechanisms, to ensure that the role that S4C plays is properly reimbursed, et cetera? I just wondered what your thoughts are about that, because it determines what you can do, how you can improve accessibility, how you can embrace new technologies and all the things that need to be done to achieve all the targets that you want to achieve.

I mean, I didn't realise that the drop in funding has been as extensive as you're setting out there since its inception, and that is very, very striking. To me, that just reflects what a great job the production companies and S4C itself have done to maintain standards and quality and variety within that very difficult funding envelope. Of course we would like to receive more money. Of course we would like to receive greater levels of funding, because if we did, we would do more. We're never going to be able to compete with people like Netflix because of the amount of money they've got to produce the kind of things they do. And given that, we are doing very, very well with the funding that we have got.

As I said previously, we are dependent on cross-party support, and we would want our politicians in Wales to keep making the case for the importance of S4C and what we deliver. And that's something that we—those relationships—work hard on. And it's not just the Welsh language; it's the contribution to the creative economy, particularly in parts of Wales that are struggling economically. Having good-quality jobs in areas like Caernarfon, Carmarthenshire, Llanelli, these are really important contributions to the local economy. So, that's part of our message as well, that we're a very important part of the creative economy in Wales, which is brilliant for the Welsh economy.

What would be the main sort of changes you would want to see happen in terms of—? It's early days, so I don't want to put you in a position—. I mean, you're still obviously thinking and developing ideas around this. What do you think mainly needs to change? What are the main hurdles you think you need to overcome and changes that need to be implemented?

Within S4C, you mean?

Yes.

Well, I think—

And even things outside that impact on S4C.

I think one of the things that we're going to have to do really, really well over the next four or five years—even sooner than that—is manage the shift in viewing away from terrestrial television to online viewing. That produces big challenges for S4C, because a lot of our viewing is still via terrestrial channels, and that's not going to be available to us in the future. So, helping audiences to transition from terrestrial television to online viewing is something that we are going to need to take a very active role in achieving, carrying our audiences with us, making sure that live events and things are still there to be seen and people know how to access them. That's something that we're going to have to focus very hard on.

I'd also talk about sport. Free-to-air viewing of live sporting events is massively important for Wales. Sport is such an important part of our culture, and people should be able to have access to these big sporting events free to air, particularly deprived communities, or to be able to see that content. It's very popular on S4C. We talk about S4C as the, sort of, home of Welsh sport, and that's fantastic. So, maintaining that is something that we need to keep a very close eye on, I think.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to come in about the comments made about viewing figures and, you know, productions, and what your view is on things like collaborative approaches. I know, obviously, historically, S4C used to show a lot of things like Channel 4 content and things like that. Probably a bit of a historical question in one way is did those previous collaborative approaches enhance viewers, and is there any model within S4C to look at how it adapts to modern challenges such as Netflix and other sort of streaming services, that S4C can move with and achieve things. Often, we discuss in the Senedd, as you're probably aware, our cross-party approach to getting to a million Welsh speakers by 2050. So, do you see those opportunities within S4C, on a collaborative approach, to enhance the Welsh language and get us to where we need to be through those streams of media?

Yes, I do think collaboration is incredibly important. I've already had a conversation about this with Rhuanedd Richards at the BBC—that it makes it more possible to deliver high-quality content if we're working together and sharing the cost of productions. There was a very successful drama series called Cleddau, which was a crime drama set in Pembrokeshire, which was brilliant. I watched it in Welsh, but it was also available in English because of a fairly innovative way of filming. So, that is definitely the way forward in terms of being able to afford to deliver high-quality drama. But, as Mr Antoniw pointed out, subtitling is just becoming the norm now in international television drama, and that's something that we're also trying to use as an opportunity to take Welsh language content out to the international audiences, by using subtitling, as other countries are already doing very successfully. So, that is very much a part of our thinking, going forward.

Okay. It's on 5.3, on the UK-Ukraine 100-year partnership agreement.  I've seen the letter, which was to Eluned Morgan, that was sent, and the reply that's come back. Just on that, there really isn't much detail in there that explains what is actually happening. One of the issues that's emerged is, of course, this thing of—. As you know, we had this delegation recently, a cross-party delegation, to Ukraine.

There is a digital report that is coming out. It might be worth, actually, the committee viewing it at some stage, but I think it's gone to the Llywydd to go onto the website. It was basically done in video format, but it engaged a lot of the cultural Ministries and things around that. But one of the things that came out of this partnership is it's not clear what funding there is, it's not clear what the process is. The reason I ask this is because one of the issues there was a thing that's being led by the British Council, which is the twinning of schools.

I've looked into this, and it turns out that, of the sort of 100—basically, it's closed now to new entrants, because of over-demand—there were only a few Welsh schools that were in it. There clearly is someone in Welsh Government, because I've had engagement with them in terms of what is going on, although I'm not completely clear exactly what is going on. I've already started the process of actually twinning Ysgol Garth Olwg with a school in Ukraine, so we can do our own thing aside from this. But the point about these letters is that it doesn't actually tell us very much about—. We've got the declaration, and

'Wales can contribute to its delivery across devolved areas'

and so on. It doesn't mean—. The detail isn't there as to what exactly has been agreed, what resources there actually will be, what the process actually is. And then, for us, the interest will be: (1) to what extent are we engaged within that or can we benefit from it, or can we piggyback on it or whatever, or do some of these issues in any event? So, two of the issues that are going to be emerging are going to be the twinning of towns and cities, and the other one is, obviously, the twinning of schools. And I just think it would be useful to have a little bit more detail about precisely what that is. I'm not really sure how much engagement there was with devolved Governments, in terms of the development of it. That, in many ways, is perhaps a bit of a secondary issue. But I'd just like to know how these are going to work, because these, clearly, relate to some of our devolved functions, so we need to know more.

Well, Mick, we're very lucky to have you on the committee to be able to keep us abreast of that. But I agree with you, I think it would be worth us—. With Members' assent, it would be worth us going back on that letter and asking for that further detail. I take it everyone is happy. Diolch, Mick. That's really helpful. Thank you so much.

Apart from that, are Members content to note these papers?

Noted.