Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Bore da, good morning. My name's Ruth Cocks and I am the director of the British Council in Wales. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Walter.

Yes. So, I'm Walter May. I'm the founder and chief exec of Global Welsh.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, thank you so much. Elin.

Well, I'll try not to be polite. I think in the written evidence I said there's a distinct lack of metrics as to how do you actually measure success. As a businessman, we're always held to outcomes and, having done Welsh Government projects in the past, they always hold us to outcomes. So, I think they should practice what they preach. I think there should be distinct measures in there that we can assess whether the investment in what they're doing internationally is effective or not.  

Ruth. 

I kind of disagree. I think the measures are there. I think we just might not necessarily know about them because we don't work for Welsh Government. So, I think that is something key. But, as far as my understanding is, the trade and invest, the objective on economic benefit, is measured through numbers of investments and numbers of jobs. I think exports are declared, as far as I understand it. For the priority relationships, there is an annual report that's published, and we're able to access that and look at what those priority relationships have developed. I think, from my understanding of our network overseas, that, as we feed in as British Council to Foreign Office plans, business plans at post, so does Welsh Government feed into how they support Foreign Office policy and what they are going to do to support Wales at post. So, they report in against those reports alongside us.

And I think the hardest thing to probably measure from the international strategy is raising Wales's profile, but I think there are many contributing factors, and I do think that they look at the nation's brand index to do that. It's something we do similarly through our global perceptions survey, but it's not an easy thing to directly measure your contribution to.

Thank you. Before I bring Elin in, I think Alun wanted to come in. Heledd, did you want to come in as well? No. So, I'll bring Alun in, and then I'll go to Elin.

I just wanted to follow up what Walter was saying about additional metrics. Because I think Ruth has outlined some of the metrics that exist and the rest of it, so I was just wondering where you felt the gaps were and what sorts of numbers would you like to see. 

Well, we actually had an input into the strategy, so we involved our diaspora, and it was distinctly lacking in any numbers. It's just a narrative, essentially. So my main focus is, obviously, how do we leverage the diaspora. In recent research we did around brain drain and brain gain—

Yes, I saw that. 

—9 per cent of people who answered the research knew that there was an international strategy. So, that's another issue, I think—how do we communicate this to people? How do they understand what Wales is trying to achieve internationally? But, yes, it should be about investment, it should be about trade, for sure, but there are other, softer, measures as well: the number of people that clearly are aware of what Wales is trying to achieve that don't live in Wales anymore—that's my focus—and encouraging them to contribute to the objectives that we're trying to achieve internationally. But—

Okay. Can I just pin you down on that, please, because it's important for this committee's inquiry to understand exactly what you're saying and how we can then translate that into our thinking? As Ruth has outlined, there are metrics in existence that are published regularly in terms of investments—inward investments and the rest of it. There are metrics that are published in terms of what the Government is delivering, in terms of those sorts of economic activity measurements. So, I'm just wondering what metrics would you want to see that aren't already published.

Well, if there are numbers published, they're not very visible. I'm not aware of what they are; maybe you'd have to go looking for them. Again, if you're trying to build an international relationship with, in my case, Welsh people, then it needs to be very transparent and easy to access. We could publish. If we knew the numbers, we'd be very happy to publish through our channels so that people are aware. If we're doing really good work and we're really successful at it, clearly we want to share that and celebrate that. But, equally, if we're not achieving the results we're looking for, then we need to obviously do something about that as well.

Okay, thank you. 

Before we carry on—before I go to Dr Elin Royles who's joining us online—we've been joined by a distinguished guest in the public gallery. We want to extend our welcome to you, to the Speaker of the Queensland Parliament, the Honourable Pat Weir MP. You're very welcome. Croeso mawr i chi i Gymru—you're very welcome to Wales. It's lovely to have you with us. Thank you very much. 

Diolch. If I could ask you all to put a number on this—because there are more than 270 actions that are listed in the strategy that were meant to be delivered between 2020 and 2025—where would your understanding be of how many of those have been delivered?

Do you want to add anything to that, Ruth?

I think it's also important to acknowledge, though, that this strategy was published in 2020, I think, and that was pre COVID. Then COVID kicked in, and that changed everything. And so it changed the way the world works, particularly—. Our organisation was badly affected by COVID—people couldn't travel, we couldn't do international work in the way that we were aware of. And the world has pivoted since then: war has broken out in different areas. So, I think that it was good to have an ambitious strategy with 270 aims; however, it was published just before the world changed as we knew it. So, I think we have to be more realistic about then what the strategy could deliver within that time. And I think my understanding, again, of the new delivery plan is to really hone in now on what that does mean for the duration of the term to 2026, and focus on I think it's 15 new priorities. So, I think we need to caveat when the strategy was designed and the ability to deliver on that ambition, and not shy away from the fact that we should have been ambitious in that strategy, even if everything wasn't able to be delivered in time.

Thank you for that, Ruth. And Walter, finally, on this.

Yes. There's a diaspora element to the international strategy, which obviously fits exactly with what we do. We are building, and continue to build, a network that's easily accessible by anybody that wants to connect with the diaspora. However, Welsh Government should be partnering with us to actually help them deliver those outcomes, but that hasn't happened. And I think, if they did, I'm sure we would help them enormously to reach whatever objectives they might set that are diaspora related. So, we are here as a privately funded organisation that is ready to help, obviously, Wales become more prosperous, by connecting to the diaspora. So, whatever the next version of the strategy is, we are ready and willing to actually help. And I'm sure, with our help, we're more likely to meet those objectives than without our help. So, that's all I would say: we're here and we want to help and engage.

I think that Lee—.

Thanks. Just taking it a step further, I certainly agree with what Walter May said. The Welsh Government should be partnering with Global Welsh; I think they've done some excellent work. But specifically in terms of the international offices the Welsh Government has, I'm interested in the view of both the witnesses about the effectiveness of our presence there, particularly given what's going on with UK foreign policy and the whole international aid situation, where a whole landscape is shifting, and whether or not you think our resources are in the right place.

Are you talking about priority markets or are you talking about having an overseas network in and of itself?

I'm talking about the existing network the Welsh Government has in embassies and offices around the world. 

I think that point is very important, that there is a Welsh Government presence. And I know, from my experience overseas, that Government departments, whether that be from devolved nations, whether that be UK Government departments, work very well together, and it's a very complementary type of way of working. So, I think it's important Welsh Government has a voice in those priority markets. Whether the markets, as they currently stand, are correct, I think it's really key to have a priority in Europe, to align with the Foreign Secretary's priority on the reset with Europe. Given everything that's happening since Brexit and with the Ukraine and Russia situation, Welsh Government have got a priority in China. I think that's critical. I think there's a whole piece going on with the UK Government at the moment around China capability, and I think Wales needs to be part of that, and we can help facilitate that with our work we're doing on that piece of work. China isn't going anywhere. We need to know how to work with China and how to build relationships with China, regardless. So, I think those two are particularly key.

I know they've got a presence in the middle east, and I think that's really key for transnational education, and particularly for trade and exports. I can't comment on every single office, and there might be offices that could be looked at in the future, but I do know it takes a lot to set up an office and build those relations, and once you bring them down, you can't just then rebuild a presence once an office has been closed. So, I think it's great that they've got a presence. Our directors certainly work very closely, where feasible, with Welsh Government overseas. We can help amplify Welsh Government's work and, equally, Welsh Government help amplify our work. So, for me, I think it's critical that you have offices overseas, like other nations' Governments would, and also to ensure Wales is represented in the UK Government's work.

Thanks. Walter, did you want to come in on this?

We work closely with the Government offices where we have our own hubs. So, we have Global Welsh hubs, and we just opened one in Australia, by the way. That's hot off the press. So, where it makes sense for us, we actually engage, or attempt to engage. Sometimes resources are limited, but we don't necessarily need to work closely with these Government offices to get the things done that we do, but it always helps to be able to engage them and involve them. And equally, they're getting a lot of benefit from our activities. So, they're building their network through Global Welsh's efforts as well, which is a good thing. So, in the middle east, for example, I think the network there is very vibrant, and I think there's a lot of co-operation between Global Welsh and the Government people in the middle east, as a good example. But also China and Japan and, hopefully, Australia soon as well.

Can I follow up on that, just to Walter May? So, putting aside your view of your own activity in those countries, in terms of your experience of the Government's teams—or, in many cases, just one person in a UK team—do you think they are adding value? 

Our experience is that they're difficult to access support from, because we are firmly focused on economic development and business, and I assume that these offices cover the whole spectrum of Welsh Government activity. So, there's limited opportunity for us and limited value for the things that we do. But I don't really know why; it's just resource constraints. But we do try, on a regular basis, to engage, and our expectations are such that we accept that, sometimes, they won't have the expertise or the resources to support what we are looking to do.

Briefly, what more do you think they should be doing?

Personally, I think we could do a lot more. If it's focused on business—. To have a Government office and expect them to cover the whole spectrum of what Government do—culture, media, sport, language and so on—is a big ask. My appeal to Government is make more use of Global Welsh, because we could do a lot more than we're doing to complement what Welsh Government offices are doing around the world. There was no Government office in Australia. Since we announced that, we've had a lot of Welsh Government people come and talk to us about how we can support any activity in Australia, because there's no Government office there. We can open hubs in any location; it doesn't cost us a lot of money to do that, because most of these people are volunteers. There's no physical office; it's just a network of passionate Welsh businesspeople who want to help. So, it's a really economically efficient way to grow Welsh Government presence in any part of the world.

Thank you. We began a conversation earlier in the session about the numbers and metrics and how we understand what the Welsh Government is seeking to achieve. The international delivery plan sets out essentially where the Government's priorities are. I'm just interested to understand your perception of that delivery plan. I'm interested to understand whether you discussed with officials in Government the plan before it was published or as it was being developed and whether you think it focuses on the right places.

My understanding of the delivery plan, and I think I referred to it earlier, is to look at where the international strategy is now, and, rather than do a refresh and start something completely new that in the current term given would probably be impossible, focus on a very specific plan of 15 actions.

I was consulted along the way in terms of the direction of travel—not part of an official consultation, but I have regular catch-ups with the Welsh Government international team, and so I knew some of the areas of travel. When I saw the final version, yes, I thought it looked about right. I think there's about 12 of the 15 aims that I think the British Council in Wales is already directly contributing to. There's nothing within those three overarching aims of the strategy—because remember, it reports still underneath that international strategy, not changing those three overarching objectives—that I think within that is missing.

I think it is important to recognise that foreign policy is reserved, so this is what Wales is able to do within our devolved powers, and I think it therefore for me looks about right. I was really pleased to see climate still high on the agenda. That does directly complement the Foreign Secretary's seven foreign policy priorities. There's a lot to be said for Wales in that space. We're a climate leader; we are number two in the world for recycling; the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 has had huge international attention. We have a lot to say in that space and can be really positive. I've always wanted to get ministerial representation at COP, and there's a clear statement in that that they will be there.

I was really keen to see education in there again. It has been in the previous plan, but there was a comment, I think, in the consultation around bringing the Welsh Government education department that also does international work and the Welsh Government's culture department that does international work more closely aligned with the strategy. So, education in there is fantastic. We're working with Welsh Government on that. Next week, we're going to Education World Forum, where there's 100 plus Ministers of education from around the world, and for the first time ever, Wales's Minister for higher education is going, which is fantastic.

There were a lot of good things around the 'team Cymru' approach. We had the Soft Power Council recently in Cardiff, and the thing I think they took away most from Wales was the 'team Cymru' approach. We know that there are some strengths and weaknesses of that approach, and we've often asked for a more strategic, coherent approach. However, when I listened to where the Soft Power Council are, and what they wanted to do, it felt like Wales was really doing well in that space, and working across partners around campaigns and common aims.

There are various different bits around European engagement. Like I've talked about, again, the reset with Europe is a big foreign policy priority, so it's great that Wales is committing to that. I know there's been huge support for EU relations post Brexit from Wales.

The sports diplomacy piece really resonates. We've done a lot with the Welsh Government around the Rugby World Cup, around the Qatar World Cup. We've just got a Welsh Government partnership with the FAW for the Women's Euros. So, it makes sense that Wales is really building on some of its USPs and assets, whether that be sport, whether that be future gens, whether that be climate.

I liked that multilateral engagement is also on the plan, which I think is critical for Wales to have a seat at the table. Again, let's be proud of what Wales has done at the UN Summit of the Future, and the signing of the declaration on the future. Wales has been working with the UN since 2019, closely looking at the future generations Act and how that can influence other countries. These are wins for Wales. I know there's been work closely between Wales and UNESCO now, which is fantastic. There's talks around being present at Mondiacult. So, Wales should have a role within these multilateral organisations, and I think that we're proving we can do that.

I think the one really important thing in there, and this is something we really need to emphasise, is improving the outcomes at home. How is international work improving the lives of people back at home? Because it's still seen sometimes as a luxury or something that's not essential, and it's absolutely critical that Wales looks outward and does this work. The business-to-business relationships and government-to-government relationships won't happen unless the people-to-people relationships are happening. And so I think we need to be better articulating the domestic benefits of international policy.

Well, I think that's pretty comprehensive. 

Sorry, I have a lot to say on that issue.

I'm grateful to you, Ruth, for that. I think the point you made about the distance between the international strategy and where we are today in an earlier answer is a really important one, and that means that we need to think about where we are. Actually, ahead of an election is quite a good time to do that, because parties are putting together manifestos and the rest of it. So I think this is quite a good time to do some of that thinking.

So, in terms of what you've just said, and I agree with the analysis of that, where do you think the Welsh Government should be looking in order to continue to distil and prioritise some of those areas? Because you've outlined a very broad area of work with a number of different priorities. I like, for example, the focus on international sporting activities, where the Women's Euros now coming up is important. I'm hoping that Wales will get to the next football World Cup as well. Where do you see those priorities evolving at the moment?

Sorry, do you mean, out of the 15, what would be the top one?

In terms of providing a sharper focus.

I think some of them have a really sharp focus, for example the international investment summit on inward investment. These aren't really, with the exception of education exports for Wales, an area the British Council would work in. However, I feel that, for Wales, that is really important. And when you're looking at the benefits of soft power and international working to the economy, those are going to be really key, particularly to prove back to Wales what this does.

The competition for influence is huge at the moment for the UK, and therefore for Wales. People wouldn't, I don't think, naturally come to Wales unless you try to raise Wales's profile and invest in Wales. You have to do that preamble work for that. Like I said, the people-to-people relationships are everything. You don't naturally get the inward investment in the way we might have expected in the past. I think, for the UK generally, we're not where we used to be. When I was working overseas, there was huge competition from the middle east, huge competition from Australia. And even in higher education, people aren't coming to the UK in the way they were. So, you have to actively go out and promote Wales and get that inward investment. So that, I think, is really important to the economy.

The delivery of the Wales in Japan year was absolutely essential because of the 50-year relationship with Japan. Having the Welsh Government take over for two days at the World Expo was a brilliant, I think, initiative, to get Wales at the UK pavilion. I don't think they're going to do another focus year for the coming year, but to deliver on Wales in Japan is wise, and I think there's been questions about whether the focus year should be every year or every other year. I've personally found them very helpful, and they have a full evaluation afterwards. You can actually see the impact of them. So I think it's probably good to not do another one in the time given.

I think, on climate and environmental ambitions, for so many reasons, Wales needs to have a voice in global challenges, and where we have USPs and strong leadership, we should be focusing on that. And, like I said, it is again, with reset of Europe and economic growth, one of the Foreign Secretary's priorities. So I think those three are probably what I would say on that. 

I think one final point is leverage with this collaboration with the UK Government—so, leveraging organisations like us and working with UK Government organisations to leverage that for Wales. It's not just the job of the Welsh Government to do international for Wales. There are UK Government organisations like ourselves with a commitment to the four nations, so let's leverage that and make the most of that for Wales.

I'm going to bring Heledd in here.

Just on that point, do you think those UK organisations have an interest in Wales in terms of understanding genuinely what Wales means? Because some of the things that we have seen previously have been in conflict at times in terms of some of the things Wales is promoting as opposed to the UK Government.

I think the Soft Power Council—I was lucky enough to be in the room—was very telling on that. I think a point made by our CEO afterwards was that where Wales wants to go it alone and has their own brand and has so much going on already—I think that was the major takeaway, there was so much going on in this space—absolutely, great. But where the UK Government can then amplify or integrate what Wales is doing into the UK offer, absolutely we should. We can have it, I think, both ways.

I guess it depends on the organisation. I can only speak for mine, and I know we have, in our corporate strategy, as a strategic objective, a commitment to all four nations of the UK. My job here is to make sure that I’m supporting Welsh Government ambitions for Wales, and that I’m supporting the sector’s ambition for Wales, and that I’m ensuring Wales is represented in our work, as well as delivering our core mission. So, I think it depends on, probably, the organisation, but I think it’s also up to Wales to be at the table, and even if we don’t agree, that we can be at the table and have a voice.

Thank you for that. [Interruption.] We're going to have to move on quite soon, but, yes—I'm keen to bring in the other witnesses.

Yes, I just want to say stuff around inward investment. So, we did a piece of research last November around brain drain and brain gain, and we have uncovered a goldmine for job creation in Wales from the diaspora, for the whole of Wales, not just the M4 corridor. So, 500 business owners and business leaders from the survey—there were 1,709 respondents; 500, I was amazed by that number—have said, 'I’d be really interested in having a conversation about setting up an operation in Wales, or bringing my business back to Wales.’ So, that’s just the tip of the iceberg. This research was funded by Welsh Water, with very little, or in fact, no involvement by the Welsh Government.

The goldmine we’ve uncovered needs to be mined, but we can’t do that as Global Welsh. It needs to be a public-private partnership, with the public sector, to help us do it. These will create jobs in all areas of Wales, not just the M4 corridor. And while I understand why they want to pursue inward investment from large corporates, that is the toughest thing to do, because these large corporates can go anywhere in the world. It will take a long time to convince them to come, if you’re able to, and it will take a long time for them to create jobs. And we know the history of large corporates coming to Wales; many stay, but many leave. These are businesses that will be totally embedded in Wales, the rural parts of Wales. So, for me, this is the best opportunity of creating high-value jobs across the whole of Wales, not pursuing, singularly, large corporates.

So, we think Wales needs to do both. They need to mine this, help us mine this goldmine, and get these businesses back to Wales. And it is the tip of iceberg. So, there are 500 here, there are probably tens of thousands across the whole world that we can find, seek out and bring back. I think the cost of doing that is very, very low, so the investment in doing this is small.

Can I just come back to you very briefly there? I'm grateful to you for that. So, how do you think the Welsh Government is doing at the moment?

In what regard?

In terms of what you’ve just been saying, in terms of mining, if you like, the goodwill of the diaspora.

Not very well.  

Tell me why. 

Because they haven’t engaged with an organisation like us that’s actually doing it day to day. So, there’s no—. They have a formal relationship with the British Council; they have no formal, ongoing conversation with Global Welsh. So, when there’s a challenge for the Welsh economy that inward investment or international trade could help address, we should be involved in those conversations, because we have the network, we have the insights, we have the people, the goodwill of the people out in the wider world that want to help.

Can I just clarify that we don't—

Very briefly. 

—have a formal relationship with Welsh Government. We’re not a strategic partner. We have one contract funded by Welsh Government that reports into, actually, a central-based team. So, it’s more just building those relationships and understanding the priorities. I just want to clarify that we haven’t got any formal arrangement with them. 

Okay, thank you.

I’m grateful to you for that. I want to come back to you, Walter, on this—

Very briefly, Alun. 

—because I think this is important. So, you’ve made those points about Welsh Government, and the way that Welsh Government prioritises work and carries out its mission, and I accept all of that. So, what do you—? And you said that they should be working with Global Welsh and all the rest of it. So, where do you think the Welsh Government should be focusing in on its international strategy, its delivery plan and the rest of it, in terms of delivering this? What does working with Global Welsh actually mean in reality?

Well, it does mean some funding. We fund ourselves right now, but we can’t do everything we want to do. We have ambitions, and the ambition has been fired by this report, by this research. So, it wouldn’t take much to actually engage these 500—we’ve got their names, we know where they are, we know what businesses they are, we know the size of them—in a way that the international investment summit is trying to do with large corporates. So, we could have a similar event to bring these businesses here, explain to them the infrastructure, the ecosystem in Wales and how easy it would be for them to come back and the support that's available. It's a great story. We've got a great story to tell these 500 business leaders and owners, but we're not telling it.

Okay. Forgive me, I'm sorry to interrupt you. I'm afraid that we're going to have to move on because of time. I'm so sorry. 

Go on, Walter. 

The only thing I would say is that writing a document and issuing a strategy is one thing, actually reinforcing it through regular meetings with stakeholders and obviously reviewing what went well and what's not working so well, so that you can adjust it throughout the period—I haven't seen that happen. And that would normally happen in business. You'd have a strategy and you'd have a programme of reviews with stakeholders to adjust as you go forward, and get buy-in, of course, because people need buy-in and commitment. We've all got different priorities, and so if the Welsh Government want to get attention from organisations like ours, then obviously we need to sit down with them on a regular basis and have a conversation, which we don't do.

I think that's a valid point. I think my understanding, as I said earlier, is that the strategy's three main objectives remain, and then this delivery plan with 15 objectives is how to deliver that in the remaining time and what the focus and priorities are. So, I think that, for me, was quite clear, but I think, yes, they could shout louder about the delivery plan, socialise it with key partners, whether you're an official partner or whether you would like to work more closely with Welsh Government.

I think that with the focus years they've done, they've had a stakeholder forum that has been really successful, with various different people from across Wales, whether it be sports, education, culture, arts, various different organisations as part of those focus years, and I wonder if something like that could be—to speak to Walter's point—something that they do more broadly. So, it doesn't have to be a funded partner, it doesn't have to be a strategic partner, it can be anyone who's interested sometimes to come along—like they did with the Euros, actually, the Euros launch—to invite as many people as possible. I do wonder whether there's a role for the cross-party group in Wales international in this as well in terms of increasing awareness and being able to ask more questions around this across different parties.

Could I just briefly come in on that? In terms of the information that you have on that, what is the process that tends to be followed? Would the documents be shared with you or is it more that you'd have more of an informal catch-up with officials about things?

I think it's both. With the delivery plan, I was sent it and Welsh Government offered to come to our office and present it, but I was also keen that they hear from us how we think we're already delivering on lots of those areas as well. So, I think it's both: sometimes it's an informal catch-up, sometimes it might be through the focus-year meetings that you know that something's being delivered and through various different meetings with different Ministers.

Walter.

I definitely think so. As I said, in the research that we did, 9 per cent of the respondents knew about the international strategy, so there are a lot of people who didn't know about it. They passionately want to contribute, they want to help, and they want to be a channel to get the messages out there, because we are a good channel to communicate internationally, and we're not the only channel, clearly, but we don't get asked to do that. So, we're very much here to help and to engage in any way that is going to help Wales become more prosperous.

And if you met some of the people that were at—. We had a meeting here yesterday and we had our hub leader from the US over and our hub leader from the middle east over, and their passion for Wales is unbelievable. And they're not looking for anything from it, they just want to contribute and help Wales be more prosperous, and we're not really taking full advantage of that passion. We can do that in informal ways, but there are formal ways that need to be in place to do it as well, which we don't have.

I can't speak for Welsh Government, but I'm a citizen of Wales and I imagine that presenting international work comes with a lot of political scrutiny. I think we need to do a better job in Wales to really understand the benefits of international work to Wales and imagine a Wales where we weren't looking outwards. I think it does come under scrutiny—travel is expensive, there are huge challenges that people want to address domestically. And I think, maybe, that is where we're reluctant and hold back a little bit from saying, 'Here's our international strategy, here's our ambition.'

We've seen recently a big cut to the official development assistance budget by UK Government to put into defence. A lot of people have got behind that, because we can see what's happening on on our doorstep in Europe. And so it was a big push towards hard power, and there's a role for soft power to play within the hard power sphere. So, I think we need to get behind that, and I think people seeing what's happening on their doorstep in Europe has galvanised communities and nations towards being able to do better in our defence spending. And I think that we can show the benefits of that international outlook. Like I said, Government-to- Government relationships can't happen unless the people-to-people happens. So, I think we need to be bolder in how we present that and maybe try to measure or be more articulate about the tangible benefits, whether it be to the economy—.

We've got examples of where we've worked internationally with Wales for 15 years on education strategy and now we've got a community-focused schools policy in Wales as part of the national mission statement. That's largely down to international collaboration with America, where it was a nascent idea that's grown and grown and now it's part of our national mission statement for Wales. And community-focused schools, and the way that they use the communities as a part of the school hub, are a huge benefit back to domestic communities in Wales. So, I think we need to find more examples of that, where we can demonstrate it.

Dr Royles.

Briefly, was there anything that either of you wanted to add to Heledd's final question? No, okay.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Bore da, pawb. We've focused, obviously, on the role of the Welsh Government to some degree already this morning, but I want to hone in on resources and budget, if I may. Just in your opinion—and I'm happy to throw it out to anybody who wants to answer—is the Welsh Government's international activity sufficiently resourced to achieve the aims of the strategy and the IDP, in your opinions?

We're not Welsh Government officials, so we don't know exactly the resourcing that's allocated to this. I'm always going to advocate for international working and more resource for it. What I would be worried about is that that resource dwindles over the next few years, given everything that's going on geopolitically, given the—how to say it—the influence of the States and where they're heading in terms of internationalism and putting domestic issues first, and limitations on budgets. So, I think what is really clear and, you know, to go back to the drawing on UK organisations and to go back to the team Cymru approach, and Walter's point, is that working together, we are much better together. We all have budgets; we all have bits of pots that we can put together to make a better impact for Wales. So, it's really drawing on those resources and leveraging that for Wales.

I think also—to go back to my previous point about the culture departments of Welsh Government and the education departments of Welsh Government who are doing international—how do we bring that together in a cohesive way and make sure that it really speaks to Wales's international priorities? And I think for working with the British Council, look, we've got a whole programme for the UK. I do my best to leverage that for Wales. Welsh Government can absolutely draw from that and work as strategically as they'd like to with us on that, but there are plenty of tools on which to draw from. It doesn't always have to be directly Welsh Government-funded resource and budget.

Where would you see their role in that, then, in that sort of team Cymru approach that you mentioned, and obviously a cohesive and sort of strategic approach? Where would you see the Welsh Government's role within that? Obviously, because when you've got many stakeholders around the table who are all aiming for the same thing, you have to delegate and divvy up roles, and give tasks specifically to each individual. Where would you see the Welsh Government's role in that if that was the case?

I'll ask Ruth to come back on that, and then I'll go to the other witnesses who wanted to come in. Ruth.

I think, at the moment, my understanding is that Welsh Government international fund four or five strategic partners—Wales Arts International, the Urdd, future gens, Welsh Centre for International Affairs—and there is a strategic forum where they work with those funded partners. There's been talk about potentially making that a more open call in the future, so a bit like we had with the Euros bid where other partners could bid in for funding, and then you have a direct line in terms of reporting, and that makes a lot of sense.

Whether you could have a free-for-all, if you like, I don't know how strategic that would end up being, but around certain elements like the Euros, like the Qatar World Cup, like the focus years, anybody can get involved, and those forums, I think, are manageable, but it's a vicious circle, because if you've got a small team working on everything, they can't do everything, and they can't include everything. So, there's a funded element of it, and where people are directly accountable to Welsh Government for the funding they've received versus the more open forums that we could all be part of, how that then is delegated and how people—. This plan was described as a call to action. How people then have an official role in that, I don't know. I think that's something that we could discuss and could be worked up more.

Interesting.

We are constantly told that the resources are very limited, and we've got an opportunity here that even if there wasn't the budget for it, there's a huge return on investment in these 500 businesses, and more in the future, that said they want to come back to Wales and create jobs all over Wales. So, this sort of thing with hard outcomes—and we are very happy to be held to hard outcomes—can, obviously, be cost justified, so the resources need be found. But the resources, and the human resources side, don't necessarily have to be within the Welsh Government. So, I would encourage Welsh Government to look more at outsourcing some of the things that the public sector and private sector can do better, and build those partnerships for the long term. But if there's a return to Wales in terms of hard economic outcomes, then the money needs to be found and resources need to be found to do it.

Thank you. I won't focus on the budgetary and financial aspects any more, as I'm not picking up a sense of a great degree of knowledge, and nor did I particularly expect to either, really. It was just to seek an opinion initially.

But how do you currently feed in your expertise to the Welsh Government's international relations policy and how is that conducted? Obviously, we're talking about resources and budgetary concerns here. So, in terms of how your expertise can perhaps influence best practice, how is that currently conducted as things stand?

Is there anything that anyone wanted to come in on? Walter.

We don't have any formal way of feeding back to Welsh Government on anything. We’d certainly appreciate it if we did, because I think there’s a lot of learning that Welsh Government could get from us, and we’d like to understand more clearly what Welsh Government are trying to achieve and how we can align with that.

And do you feel that’s either a reluctance from the Welsh Government, or do you think that communications could generally be a bit better both ways?

Well, my kind of gut feeling is that there's a reluctance to get too close to organisations like us, for whatever reason. I mean, we've been working on this for eight years. We deliver a lot of value for the resources that we've got. We're professional and we've got a brand that's well respected globally. What's there not to like? And I think there should be some mechanism where there's a more formal quarterly review, a conversation to be had about what the next three months' objectives are for the Welsh Government and how we can align with that. I think there's so much more we could do and we'd be willing to do, but we're underutilised, I would say.

Diolch, Walter. We're into our—

I'm sure we can—. Sorry.

I was just saying that we're into our final four minutes, Gareth, that's all.

Okay. Yes, I'm sure we can reflect on that point as a committee. Just as a final question, how would you like to be involved with the Welsh Government? How could you see future relationships? If you had a blank canvas, a blank slate now and just said, 'Right, okay, we'll start from scratch', what would you like that relationship and that communication stream to be like with the Welsh Government in terms of feeding in that knowledge and expertise? 

Diolch. I'll go to Ruth firstly with that.

I think there could be scope for a strategic forum, to reference the previous part. I think it currently happens with funded partners and it happens for the focus years, but to speak to the previous points, is there something broader that could happen? Or, if there were open calls, that might, like I said, lead to a different combination of partners being part of that. I've always wanted the longer view. When I first took up this post, to understand—. You know, what they've done in the focus years is brilliant, I think, and to have that more broadly. But I think that's also my experience in post, as the time's gone on, for me, that's got a lot better. So, we have an advisory committee for Wales, made up of 15 members across Wales. We've got four ex officio places and Welsh Government international sit on that as ex officio, Wales Arts International sit on it, the culture department for Welsh Government and the education department. So, that's really positive. We do already have regular meetings with the international team and we're a key partner. We use our own funding, but to support the Welsh Government focus years. So, we have these various different forums. I'm going to leave it there because I know we're short on time.

Very quickly. Our focus is international trade and inward investment. So, we should be seen as an extension of that part of Welsh Government and we should be involved on an ongoing basis in supporting them. And that might mean them funding some of the work we do, but we can do it very much more efficiently, I think, than maybe the public sector. So, yes, I just think we should be very closely aligned and connected to that part of Welsh Government. And obviously, there's soft power stuff we can do as well, which we would certainly be happy to do in partnership with the British Council.

—just for you to check that it is a fair copy of what's been said.

Bore da, bawb. I'm Susana Galván Hernández and I'm the executive director of Taith, the international learning exchange programme for Wales.

Obviously, the strategy was set up in 2020, so that was before the establishment of Taith. Taith came in in 2022, and we've always been clear that, with the purpose of the programme, we always wanted to align with that international strategy. We refreshed our own strategy even further in 2023 to just make it more focused on inclusion and accessibility, and reciprocity as well. So, the programme is very much based on the ethos of mutual learning, reciprocity and benefits for all participants and for Wales more widely. So, in that sense, supporting that global outlook of the strategy is really important to us.

I would agree that the strategy is something to be proud of. Obviously, when we launched Taith, we always referred to the fact that Taith was part of a bigger strategy for Wales to engage with the world in a very positive way, and that really helped us to articulate the purpose of the programme and why the programme was created in the first place. 

Fast forward to now—we've seen that, for example, just from the Taith perspective, this has created a lot of interest in Wales from international partners. Obviously, with the departure from Erasmus, which a lot of our partners in Europe and beyond have been very sad about, I think Taith has attracted a lot of interest into Wales. It has been a little bit of a window opener to Wales.

Like Mali said, I think, it's about how can we leverage a little bit more on those good stories—how can a programme like Taith, and obviously we're just a little element of it, contribute to create that narrative and share that story more positively.

Just looking at Erasmus, our colleagues from the EU delegation in London have told us that they're looking at Taith as an example of best practice as they prepare for the next iteration of Erasmus in 2028. So it's how do we make sure that that's not lost, and that we celebrate with a bit more pride about the achievements of Wales in different spaces. 

Diolch, Lowri. Susana, if I could come firstly to you on my final question. In terms of the priority international relationships, are there any that you think might be missing that you'd like to see included, or anything else that you'd like to say about that work? 

I think it's important for the Welsh Government to have a selection of priority regions and countries, and I think that's effective, but from our perspective of Taith, we are open to the whole world. It wouldn't make sense to just narrow to those priority countries, because we work, as you know, across all learning sectors, and every organisation has different relationships, different priorities. Even within one sector, let's say higher education, not all universities will focus on the same market.

Having said that, now that we've got quite a lot of data from the programme, some of the top 10 destination and inward mobility countries correlate to some of those priority countries. Obviously, Europe features very high, so we've got the top 10—sorry, Eurovision—we've got Spain, France—

I always appreciate a Eurovision reference. 

The top 10 for exchange—as you know, Taith includes outward as well as inward mobility—are Spain, France, the US, Italy, Germany, Canada, India, Portugal, the Netherlands and Japan. Japan obviously has creeped up because of the Wales and Japan year, and within Spain we see quite a lot of projects with the Basque region and Catalonia. We've got a delegation from the Catalan Government at the moment in town. They just came to learn from best practice from Taith in terms of including people from under-represented groups in international exchange.

No, we were not involved in the building of the plan. 

But you're mentioned. 

Yes. I'm not surprised we're mentioned, and I'm really happy to see education there, because in the initial strategy education was not part of that, but we were not part of the discussions on the building of it.

Are you surprised by that fact?

I guess a little bit, yes. 

Do you have the regularity of meetings that Mali outlined? 

Yes. As you know, Taith is 100 per cent funded by the Welsh Government. Vikki Howells is the Minister that owns the programme and we work very closely with the Welsh Government. We've had a really good relationship with them in terms of building the programme really quickly. So, it's been a very supportive relationship throughout. We knew that there was a review of the strategy, obviously, and we contributed to the consultation whenever it was, in the autumn, but we were not aware of the plan.

Thank you for that clarification.

Because we were not involved in the building of it, just from reading the plan itself, my understanding is that it complements the existing strategy rather than being a review of the strategy itself, and it's supposed to be a call for action with 15 deliverables. I don't know if we'll talk a little bit more in detail; I can give my view on the deliverables.

I was going to ask—. My next question is: what are your views on the 15? So, go for it.

Yes, you're anticipating the next question.

Sorry.

You are on it. That's good, it's like it's one mind.

So, shall I do that?

Yes, please.

I mean, obviously, we're super happy that education is there, and, as part of that, that mobility is there. We know it's a really big topic at the moment in relation to, particularly, the future of the UK-EU relationship, the future of youth mobility, the potential return to Erasmus and so on. So, very happy that Taith is highlighted.

I guess we would like to make sure that when education is looked at, it's not only from the lens of education export, but it's more about the benefit to learners and to organisations that engage internationally. And that's not just tertiary education, but, of course, youth sector, adult education and schools as well. And I think, sometimes, mobility gets lost in translation a little bit, and it's thought of as something that just benefits university students and post-16 students. And we've seen some of the most impactful projects actually happening in the other sectors.

I think, for me—sorry, and then I'll shut up—the one thing that is not clear to me is that some of it looks like strategic objectives and some of it looks more at the 'how'. So, for example, Wales and Japan would be: how do we deliver a strategic objective, let's say, about education or culture or sports diplomacy? So, I think it would be good to have a little bit more clarity. What are the strategic objectives? How are we going to do that? And I think the one bit that's missing, maybe, is who is part of that team Cymru, who are the stakeholders that are going to support the strategy, and how are we going to support it in a very pragmatic, practical way. So, yes, some thoughts.

Thank you.

Thank you. I've been interested in the evidence you've given this morning. It's been quite fascinating in different ways. I'm wondering where you think the Welsh Government is going wrong, because you have, in different ways, spoken very much about the work of Government and your relationship to that, and I'm thinking, that's fine, but we've heard in the previous session about some of the gaps that exist in Welsh Government data and the rest of it. So, I'm wondering where you believe the Welsh Government needs to place a greater emphasis, and where you believe they aren't doing so well.

Susana, yes, go for it.

Welsh Government, don't be upset. [Laughter.] Maybe rephrase the question; I don't think it's about what the Welsh Government is doing wrong—

I'd like you to answer it, if you don't mind.

—but moving forward how we can make the most out of this strategy. I mean, I appreciate a plan. I don't know if I'm right, but it looks like it's a 12-month plan, and I think the long-term aspect is really important. So, I think there could still be a benefit in reviewing the strategy itself because it was obviously launched in 2020. There are a lot of elements there that are still relevant, but at the same time the world has changed so much since 2020. So, I think there could still be a benefit to look at the whole strategy per se.

As I said, I think the plan could do with a bit more refinement. It looks like a shopping list a little bit, and it would be better to just maybe look at what are the strategy priorities, what are the threads that should cut across all those priorities. For example, improving outcomes at home should be a common thread, no matter what area of focus. That should be ultimately what everything that we do should be focusing on. And then a little bit more detail on the how and the who, I think.

From Taith's perspective, obviously we want to—. Resources are very limited across the board. We all recognise that. So, how can we maximise the resources available, the talent available, and all the contributions that all stakeholders do to support this plan, to help refine it, to help improve it, to provide the data that is needed, and to make sure that all different departments across Welsh Government maybe co-ordinate a little bit more holistically? So, obviously we stand here to support it and provide all the evidence.

Taith is a tiny element, but it's a great success story for Wales, we feel. I like the point about the engagement with UK Government, but I really hope Welsh Government is really confident to strongly share the learning that comes from Wales. We know, for example, with Taith, that the number of Welsh organisations applying for Taith funding has been much, much higher than they ever were for Erasmus. So, my biggest nightmare at the moment is that we go back to Erasmus, great, but the learnings from Taith are lost completely. So, you know, that's something.

Thank you for saying that, but I think I'm right in my memory that Taith's budget has been cut as well.

Like everybody's budget, yes.

But given what you've just said about the success of Taith, it's somewhat curious, isn't it? And I share your view of Taith, by the way; I don't challenge you on that. But, you know, it's pretty short-sighted to cut your successful programmes, one would assume. So, what conversations did you have with Welsh Government? I presume you've had similar conversations to what you've just described to us this morning. But what conversations did you have with Welsh Government when they must have told you at one point, 'We are considering cutting your budget?'

I'll maybe just highlight the way that we are set up. So, we are set up like a subsidiary company of Cardiff University, and therefore we are, in that sense, an independent entity from Welsh Government, and we have a board of directors that we report to. On that board, we have both members from Cardiff University, because they’re accountable for the successful running of the company, and independent directors, just to manage the potential conflict of interest. So, that’s how we are set up. So, obviously, when we were given a heads up that we were likely to experience significant budget cuts in the last financial year, obviously we worked closely with Welsh Government and with the board of directors just to try to manage that situation, and we did a lot of financial modelling around that, to look at where we could obviously find savings in terms of operational costs and running costs, look at the targets again, and then look at how we would manage that cut in a very pragmatic way, in terms of the pathway funding available.

I think the challenge for us is that Taith is a multi-year programme, but Welsh Government works on a year-by-year budget. Every year, we carry commitments to the next year in terms of—. We’ve got 150 live projects at the moment, where payments have been across years. So, the yearly budget—. And I don’t think that’s an issue with the current Government; it’s just an issue generally. I think the year-on-year uncertainty is quite difficult to manage.

So, I think, from our perspective, obviously our focus is to deliver the programme, deliver it the best way that we can, and just demonstrate the success of it, and try to work on a continuous improvement basis, so that we’re always refining and so on.

Okay. But the question was about the conversations you had with Government. I accept what you just said, by the way, but it doesn’t answer the question, I’m afraid. I’m interested in the conversations you've had with Government, because I’ve heard Ministers and officials speaking in Brussels and elsewhere about the success of Taith, and Taith is an example in Wales, as you’ve just described. And therefore, ‘We’re going to cut it’ doesn’t seem to me to be the way in which Government talk.

You can  imagine the conversation. We were disappointed, like everybody else who experienced it. At the same time, we recognise that it’s a very difficult financial environment, and we’re not the only ones experiencing those cuts. And I think, obviously, we challenged and we worked with them in terms of how that money would be managed, but, again—I think I answered the question—I think the point for us, because we don’t have control over that, is just to demonstrate the impact of the programme, and make the case that the budget continues, and, hopefully, it increases in the future. And any support that you can give to that will be appreciated.

Thank you very much for that.

Ocê. Lowri. 

Okay.

Thank you very much, Chair, and good morning, everybody. Obviously, Alun's touched there on the Welsh Government's role, but I want to seek an opinion as to whether you believe the international activity by the Welsh Government is sufficiently resourced to achieve the aims of the strategy and the IDP.

I think, similarly—

Any other views—?

Susana's going to come in now, Gareth.

Oh, sorry—can you hear me?

Yes.

Obviously, I don't know what resources are available, but, as Mali said, obviously, resources are limited. I think one thing I would say is that international relations, no matter if it's trade, education, soft power, needs long-term investment. So, I think having that kind of long-term view and resourcing appropriately in the longer term is really important. And I think, in a time where everybody struggles with funding, a joined-up collaborative approach with stakeholders would be of real benefit. There's a lot of good stuff going on, a lot of, as I said, talent around. So, how can Welsh Government bring stakeholders in, in a kind of cohesive, co-ordinated way to deliver and to feed into this strategy? I would say, though, that the international relations team are brilliant. I've never seen anyone more enthusiastic than David Warren, for example. So, yes, it's a real pleasure to work with them and with the network of offices overseas.

Yes. And you talk about collaboration there. How do you currently feed in your expertise to the Welsh Government's international relations policy?

I think you covered it. So, I don't think I have anything else to add.

Okay—

Oh, I think Lowri might want to come in.

Sorry, sorry.

Before you come back in, Gareth, I think Alun wanted to come back on that.

We've been talking about the resources provided by Government and budgets and the rest of it, and your relationship with Government. When you're working on an international project with the Welsh Government, are you given targets, KPIs, that you have to meet? And perhaps you could give us an example of what they are.

Yes, as part of our contractual arrangement with the Welsh Government, we have to report on a quarterly basis, but to be honest we provide data on a monthly basis as well, informally. And we do have targets, which have had to be adjusted because of the budget cuts. So, yes, the big number target is the number of mobilities that the programme will deliver by the end, but there is a lot of qualitative data as well in terms of the number of partnerships, obviously the countries that have been involved, the impact achieved. I don't know if you know, but we've got two types of pathway. So, one measures more the impact on the participants in the mobilities, learners as well as staff, and the other pathway is more about strategic collaboration and the impact on the wider sector back in Wales—so, innovation in education and so on. So, yes, that's that. 

One of the requirements as well is that we have an independent evaluation of the programme and, over the next month, we will have the interim report. So, that looks at a lot of qualitative as well as quantitative data on the programme, not just looking at the deliverables but also the feedback from the stakeholders that have participated, as well as some international partners as well. 

Thank you, Chair. Just a final one from me. We received evidence earlier this morning and in a written format as well from other stakeholders calling for greater collaboration with the Welsh Government on these international relations. Is that something that you yourselves would welcome and do you see that as a solution to some of those problems with resources and budgets?

I think in short, yes, we would welcome more collaboration, as I said before, just because the strategy relies 100 per cent on the delivery from the stakeholders. So, I think that bringing stakeholders to the table to contribute, to discuss and to maybe contribute to the direction, moving forward, will be very much welcome, so that we have a common narrative that we can all contribute to and we can also use when we engage with our own partners. 

Yes, we put that in the consultation, just feeling that having a Minister with that portfolio would help with the issue that we've raised about co-ordination and bringing all the different departments to work more holistically in a more joined-up way. So, it was a little bit of a personal view, but it just feels like having someone dedicated to owning the strategy and to the accountability for that strategy and the delivery would then help to bring all the departments to work a little bit more closely together, and in turn, then, for stakeholders to be more involved in the whole process.

Yes. [Laughter.] Sorry. Obviously, I strongly believe that international exchange provides not just life-changing opportunities for the people involved, and I think our focus on under-represented groups, including a very specific target within projects like that, has really made a big difference, and we've seen a big jump in the percentage of under-represented participants taking part in projects. So, we've got about 44 per cent now of the actual mobilities that have taken place, so we've had over 8,000 mobilities that have happened, and 44 per cent of those have been participants from under-represented groups.

I think also, in any part of an international strategy, I think the outcomes at home are really important, but I think making sure that people from all walks of life relate to how important it is, because I think people think that international activity is only for a privileged few. So, I think sharing those impact stories—. And Heledd, if you've been, probably you've heard directly from participants how it's made a difference. We've made a point of providing additional funding for people who, for example, cannot afford to get a passport or cannot afford to travel to the airport. And we're not going to compromise on that, because we could have more mobilities at the expense of that. 

So, in short, yes, the funding is very limited. We are aware that some organisations—and we were talking about this earlier—are struggling with the current level of funding, and we would welcome for the programme to either be better resourced or continue beyond the current life-cycle, or, if we go back to Erasmus, to make sure that the learnings of Taith are not lost in that process.

I believe that Universities UK and Universities Wales did a report in terms of the future of internationalisation for the sector, the FE and HE sector, and one of the recommendations was to have an international strategy for education, which I think would be very welcome, and that would have that kind of level of detail that then could feed into the kind of wider focus on education. I mean, obviously, I'm a modern languages graduate myself—I did Chinese and English, Catalan and so on—so I'm a big advocate for that. And we do see that even on mobilities where they're not focused on modern languages, the kids that go there, wherever, and they learn a little bit of that language, and they can teach other kids a bit of Welsh or English, it just brings people together. So, yes, I think, as part of that education international strategy, because the numbers, as you know, are declining, something could be incorporated there. But, yes, it wouldn't be for me to draw that policy.

I think I mentioned this before. I think it would be good that, even with elections, there was a strategy that went beyond the 12 months. A commitment to international work is really important, so no matter what happens with the elections, I don't think that commitment should go away. I think if all Members of the Senedd, regardless of the political spectrum, committed to that work, and everybody had a buy-in and a support for that strategy, but a strategy that doesn't just look at 12 months, but kind of in the longer term—. So, whoever comes next, that commitment is still there, and, of course, we would love to see Taith in that commitment.

Diolch. Thank you, Susana.

—the final word of the session to Susana.

Our official reporting relationship is with Vikki Howells's team. So, obviously, our day-to-day working relationship is with them, but we do know the international team very well, and they involve us in inward visits from international delegations. When we have information, we share it with them. We've worked with some of the offices—obviously the one in Brussels, particularly, but also with the offices related to Wales years. So, Japan most recently, but also France last year, and India. France was two years ago, sorry. Thank you.

Thank you, all, so much for the evidence this morning.

Thanks. Just on the video games industry point, I agree that we need to keep pushing on this, but I think we should note positively that the Government have appointed two members from the industry onto the board of Creative Wales, and the Minister himself led a visit to San Francisco to the games international convention, which I think is to be welcomed.