Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good morning. I welcome Members and the public to this morning's meeting of the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister. I also welcome today Delyth Jewell, who is the Chair of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee. I've asked Delyth to join us today because the theme of our first session is Wales and the world, which is the responsibility of her committee. She will therefore be able to partake in the discussion in our first session. 

Just to go through some housekeeping, I remind Members please to make sure your phones are on silent or off, or any other equipment that may interfere with broadcasting. For those who are remote, can we just test the interpretation?

Is that okay for everyone? 

Could you just say something else again?

Okay? Yes, everyone's happy. Good. They are controlled remotely so you don't need to switch them on and off. There are no fire alarms scheduled today, so if there is one that takes place, please follow the directions of the ushers to a safe location out of the building. If Members online experience any technical issues, please put your hand up and let us know as soon as possible, so that we can make sure that's addressed. It is bilingual. If those in the room require translation, obviously, as you all know, it's channel 0 for Welsh to English and channel 1 for amplification. And I think that's it, so let's get into business. 

Can I welcome the First Minister to her first appearance before the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister, four and a bit months into your role as First Minister? So, welcome. I hope you'll enjoy it as much as we will. Do you want to introduce your officials for us, please?  

This is Andrew Gwatkin, who is director of international relations, and Amelia John, who is in charge of—. 

Director of communities and social justice. 

Thank you for coming. As I said in the opening, the first session is on Wales and the world. First Minister, I remember when I was Chair of the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee, you were the Minister in charge of producing the international relations strategy, and we're now scheduled to see that updated. How do you assess the success—because international relations is within your remit anyway—of that strategy and when can we expect an updated strategy to ensure that we take advantage of the changes that are taking place across the world at the moment? 

Thanks. You're quite right—it was part of my responsibility when I was international relations Minister to develop this strategy, and we took a long time to do it. We interacted with a lot of people to make sure we were focused on the kind of issues where we thought we could make an impact. Since then, the world has changed a lot. We were just coming out of Brexit. We'd just had the Brexit vote. We didn't have a war in Ukraine. We didn't have massive inflation. It was pre COVID. The world has changed quite a bit during that time, so obviously there's been a need for an adjustment. But also, the thing with international relations, I think, is that you do have to take advantage of events. So, if you do well in the football, you need to jump on it and to drive your opportunity to raise your profile. 

There were three very clear priorities. One was raising the profile of the country, the second was driving economic development in terms of exports and landing investment, and then demonstrating Wales as a globally responsible nation. We can still do that, so the priorities remain the same, but I think it makes sense to adjust as you’re going along, particularly in light of the changes that have happened. In terms of keeping within the priority actions, I think we’ve done that, but, if anything, we’ve expanded and taken advantage of the opportunities when they’ve arisen as well. We’ve had to adjust. Some things have not gone as well as others.

In terms of what happens next, you’ll be aware that the time frame covered a five-year period, and it’s coming to an end. What I didn’t want to do was to do a complete refresh for a year. I just thought we’d take six months to go out and consult, and, actually, what happens is you lose your focus on delivery. This is not something just for international relations—I’ve done this across the whole of Government: can we stop the refreshes, can we just focus on delivery, let’s make sure we land what we said we’re going to land.

What I’ve suggested to the team now is that we focus on a delivery plan, rather than a complete refresh, when, at most, it was only going to be an extension for a year. I’m really keen to just get going and get delivering rather than having massive engagement for the sake of a year, when, actually, you’ll only be left with half a year to deliver

So, just for clarity, for me, the strategy remains the same but you're now updating a delivery plan on the strategy.

Yes. 

Does that indicate that, because of the various circumstances you’ve highlighted across the globe, the delivery to date has not been as we would have hoped?

No, I don’t think it means that at all. I think there are areas where we probably haven’t landed things for specific reasons, and we can go into that. Some of it is about taking advantage of opportunities as they come along. For example, we’ve got a new relationship with Silesia—that was not foreseen in the international relations plan, initially. But if you’ve got an area like that, where there are genuinely common interests, if somebody approaches us and says, ‘Can we build a relationship?’ then I think it makes sense to respond.

We’ve got to be careful, because we’ve got to make sure we’re sticking to our agenda, not dancing to other people’s agendas all the time, but where there is genuine momentum and agreement in terms of where that could benefit Wales, then I think we need to keep that flexibility. So, the delivery plan will obviously, now, refer to things like the relationship with Silesia and other places.

Because I’m looking, also, at the investment agenda, and how this fits into your four domestic priorities. Clearly, there was an investment summit in the UK, and you’ve mentioned having an investment summit here. So, are we not achieving our targets for investment from outside of Wales?

I’m always keen to get more investment, and I’ve got the whole of Government now focused on the four priority areas that I’ve set out. And so, whenever we’re doing anything, they should be seen through that lens of how will it enhance those four priority agendas. One of those, of course, is about economy, making sure that the international strategy is landing as much investment as possible. Clearly, the delivery side of things now will focus on that international investment summit that we’ll be holding next year, in order to drive investment at a quicker pace, to make sure that people know that we’re open for business, and just to get a sense that the momentum is changing in relation to that.  

So, your delivery plan will include a consideration of speeding up and enhancing the strategy for inward investment into Wales from outside the UK.

Andrew Gwatkin has been given responsibility to drive the delivery of the investment summit. That will form a part, now, of the international relations remit.

A final question from me before I pass on to Delyth. Can we have an idea of when the summit is? As you say, there is a short time span between this and the next Senedd elections, so, how do you get the investment in to ensure that we can see growth? So, any idea when the investment summit would be so that we can have an idea of the timescales involved for creating that investment?

I'll let Andrew deal with that. We had a meeting yesterday about it, as it happens.

We did. So, we're delighted with the prospect of an investment summit, but we have already a very strong pipeline of investment opportunities, and we've been working on that all the time. So, this is not as if the investment summit alone is going to be the focal point of everything we do on investment. We're working on that pipeline constantly. The investment summit will be a fantastic opportunity to showcase Wales. It'll be a great opportunity to attract in some of those big decision makers, some of those investment funds too, the chief executive officers of really top companies. So, that will help us get even more across the line, and then set up investments for the future.

It's likely to be in the autumn of next year. That is the aim, so that that gives us both time now to line up the right people, to carry on working on our pipeline of opportunities, get the right content—that's key—so that those coming are going to learn about Wales, they're going to know about the opportunities, identify business opportunities, and also the way that we can work in partnership so that we can then, after the summit as well, continue to land some meaningful investment, quality jobs in the areas that we've identified for focus, whether they be tech, renewable energy—and we're looking at our insurtech industry—cyber, all of those things that we identified quite some time ago with the First Minister in our international strategy as our key unique selling points when we're talking about Wales in the world. Thank you.

I like the concept of investment opportunities, but I prefer the concept of investment per se, because that means money's coming in and we see action as a consequence of that. So, whilst opportunity is wonderful, I'd rather see investment, because that actually means it's delivering on the ground. 

And that will absolutely be it as well. Companies will be both investing for the first time, also others will be growing their investment, and we will be reaching out to investors, the likes of the sovereign wealth funds—those who have money that they want to put into projects, put into something that's meaningful, that will be good for Wales but also give a return. So, it will be, I can assure you, a combination of things.

Okay. Delyth.

When the plan had originally been for there to be a refresh of the international strategy early next year, both of your predecessors in this role and this Senedd had committed to providing a role for the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee in that refresh. I appreciate what you've just told the Chair about how the delivery plan is going to be the focus of your work next year now instead. Could you clarify, please, what that means for the commitment that had been given to the culture and international relations committee in terms of the role that we would have in that?

Thanks. Well, we won't be doing a refresh, and so the role will be different. Where I'd see the role of the committee is in scrutinising the delivery itself. I know that you, as a committee, did an assessment of the international relations strategy, so that was really useful for us. We do annual updates to keep you informed of where we're at and whether we're on track or not, but I think that is probably where the focus of your committee could actually helpfully be deployed, in making sure—. You know, I'm trying to breathe down the neck of officials here. It's important that you breathe down my neck to make sure that I keep up the pressure on the officials.

So, for me, it's all about, 'Let's stop writing strategies; let's make sure it's about delivery of the strategies.' It's actually much, much easier to write a strategy than to deliver one. And so, I'm trying to shift the focus across the whole of Government away from writing strategies all the time—'Just focus on delivery of what we've got now on the table, get that done. Once we've completed that, we'll look at the next thing.' That's where I'm at, in keeping, ideally, with the full priorities that I set out in September.

Diolch. That's really helpful for you to clarify that there'll be a role for us with the delivery planning. Thank you very much for that.

Just two further questions from me, if I may, Cadeirydd. One looking at what's already happened, and the other looking to the future. Firstly, in August, your predecessor, Vaughan Gething, had committed to providing our committee with confirmation of which of the 270 actions had been delivered and which ones remained to be delivered. Would that still be your intention, please?

Well, as I say, what I don't want to do is to spend the whole time—Andrew's team, I don't want them to spend the whole time—writing reports. I want them to get on with the job of delivery. So, that annual report is where I think that update should be seen. So, obviously, in that annual report, when that next comes out, you will be able to see what is being delivered, because now it's all about, 'Have we done it? Where are we up to? What's green, what's amber, what's red?' And there will be some areas where it's been difficult for us to deliver, for different reasons, different circumstances. It's right that you push us on those, but, sometimes, there are just events that make things difficult to achieve, and, my God, we've had events over the past five years.

Certainly, we have. Thank you for that. Finally, and this is very timely, because our committee has been consulting on the Welsh Government's international priorities, and that consultation closes today, so a shout-out to that consultation. Could you confirm, please, how you will be able to incorporate the findings of that consultation, perhaps in the delivery plan and into your future plans in this area?

Okay. Can I ask Andrew to take that one?

Yes, for sure. I think that will be very helpful for us as we're going through the draft of the delivery plan to prioritise, so we can prioritise those actions and those deliverables that will actually contribute to the four areas that the First Minister has identified and that we're working towards—all of us as a Welsh Government. As for the 270 actions that the committee very kindly forwarded to us, that has been very useful for us too, because that's given us the opportunity to compare our own monitoring of performance alongside those 270 and to use that, again, to prioritise. And so, with those priorities, we're able to include that in the delivery plan. So, that's already been helpful, but the forthcoming report will be similarly helpful for us to prioritise, make sure we're delivering the right things, because, as the First Minister said, there is an awful lot out there. We're a relatively small team, so if we can make sure that we're doing the most impactful elements to our international work, contributing to the four priorities, then that, for us, will be mission accomplished, if we can do that.

Okay, that's very helpful. Thank you.

Llyr, supplementary?

Since we're talking about delivery, I think Jenny has a question on that in relation to the Wales and Africa programme.

Thank you very much. The Wales and Africa programme is, obviously, quite a long-standing programme, and I just want to look at the fair nation aspect of it, because I'm sure you've also met the fantastic female leader of the Mount Elgon coffee co-operative, and I just want to really probe why we haven't been tackling gender inequality, particularly in relation to period dignity, because I can remember talking to Jenipher about do they have somebody making reusable period products, and absolutely not. Briefly, when she visited this year, she did say there was something in place. I really want to know why we haven't dealt with this before, because it's such an important issue for keeping children—and particularly girls—in school. Otherwise, they just drop out.

Yes. Jenny, I'm sure you'll be sad to hear that there's been some severe flooding in Mbale, in the region where Jenipher lives, and that, actually, she's had some serious damage to her farm, but you'll be pleased to hear we're making a contribution from the Welsh Government to help support that, and the fact that we are going to be celebrating the distribution of the twenty-five millionth tree, in order to make sure that, when you have flooding, actually—. This is precisely what we're trying to do with this reforestation. So, it is important that we continue with that work, I think.

Just in relation to gender equality, there are lots of programmes within the Wales and Africa programme that look at different aspects. I'm not sure about specifically what's happening in relation to period dignity, so we can look into that. I happened to go a couple of years ago—this is not a Welsh Government thing, but I just thought I'd share it with you—to a project in Kenya, and there was a school in Kenya that was being supported by a charity in west Wales—a girls school in one of the poorest suburbs in Nairobi. I went to visit there with my daughter, when we were just on holiday, and they were telling us how the girls there were missing school because of the period issues, so we made a family, personal collection, but I think there is room for us to consider what more can be done in that space. But there are amazing charities all over Wales doing great work to support people like that. But, you're quite right—I think the gender issue, for me, is quite important.

Okay. So, we've got this pilot gender inequality programme in Uganda and Lesotho. Specifically, what are we doing in Uganda on this specific issue, because it doesn't cost much money, but it's hugely important?

I don't know if we've got any detail on that, or we can come back to you on—

I think if we can come back—

We'll come back to you, but—

You can come back and write to the committee.

Yes, but I think we have got to be careful, Jenny, because there are hundreds of things we could be doing, okay? So, we have a strategy, we have a plan, we can't just say, 'Why don't we do that?' in the middle of a strategy. We have got a plan that we are keeping to in relation to Mbale. In Africa, we are really focused. The focus there is the tree planting, which is supporting women, which is giving them a means to live and to survive, and then, if they are able to earn money, they can pay for the period products, and surely that is actually part of what we need to do. So, I just think we can't be bounced into different things at different occasions. If we have a plan, we've got to try and see the plan through. The plan is planting those trees, giving people in those areas hope. I think, obviously, there is a system to go through in terms of grants for Africa, but, let's be honest, it's not massive—

No, I absolutely understand, but this is a strategic objective. This is about clean water, dignity, sanitation and sustainable—

If you can write back to the committee as to how this fits into your plan.

We can do that, yes.

We have awarded six women's empowerment grants through the Wales and Africa programme, so perhaps we can write and just update on the objective of those. I know that the early-day objective there was about supporting women who are beginning to run their own businesses because, for whatever reason, the male in the family is absent, and rather than them falling into poverty and the business or the farm just destroy itself, it's how to support the women's involvement in the co-operatives, because they're becoming the business leader and the head of the family, if you like. But we can, absolutely, write back to you.

Delyth Jewell has a supplementary on this.

Diolch. First Minister, I wanted to pick up on what you had said about Mbale briefly, please. I understand from Size of Wales that, as of the beginning of this week, 31 people had died in that landslide and between 80 and 100 people were still missing. Obviously, it has been absolutely devastating for the community there, and Size of Wales undertake such important work with the tree planting programme. Could you just confirm, please, that work will still be able to continue? I really appreciate the relief support that you are providing to them in this moment of crisis, but will the tree planting programme be able to continue, and will the funding still be there for it, in spite of this landslide?

I think it's more important than ever. It underlines the reason why we need to continue, because you need to plant trees to secure the grounds, to make sure that you don't get landslips like this. So, there is no way we're going to take our foot off that pedal. In fact, I'm really looking forward to the fact that we'll be planting our twenty-five-millionth tree early next year.

Yes, and the nurseries are distributed—it's local people, local nurseries—they're distributed geographically, so the operation will continue. And our work, together with organisations in Wales and organisations in Uganda, will continue, yes.

Thank you very much for confirming that.

John, you've got a supplementary.

Yes. Diolch, Cadeirydd. I think devolution has been very successful, First Minister, in opening up Wales to the world and the world to Wales, and a very significant part of that has been the programme for Africa, where a modest amount of funding, as you say, I think has achieved an awful lot. And I know that you're familiar with Pont in Pontypridd and the great work they do in Mbale, and I think that's an example of community-to-community development, which is so empowering for both twin communities, as it were. So, when you mention working with the strengths of the programme, First Minister, will that be a continuing priority, to spread that community-to-community engagement right across Wales? Because I think Pont is a great example, but so many other communities in Wales could be part of that, I think.

Yes. Look, the more I think about international relations, the more I realise that the most important bits of this are the people-to-people relationships—that's what really makes the difference. So, whilst you work at a strategic, political level to make sure that commerce happens and all of these important things that drive the economy, the things that really connect communities are those local connections. And I just think, when people get to know people from other countries, when there is a personal connection, that's where the magic happens. And it's fascinating. I was speaking to somebody just last night about how, when I was growing up, we used to get youth workers from Germany coming to run play schemes in our local community. My family has kept up connections with those youth workers from when we were 14 and 15 years old. That is international relations at its best, and it's those lasting relationships, it's the fact that St David's Rugby Club has a relationship with an Irish rugby club, it's those things, which is why the Taith project was so important for the Welsh Government, to say, 'Hang on, we know we're out of the European Union, but, you know, these youth connections really matter', taking, in particular, children from deprived areas out of their comfort zone and exposing them to something different. That's where the magic happens, and I think it's really important. And those Pont connections that are community to community are exactly what we should be doing more of.

We've got some questions from Carolyn on the climate emergency, which fits into the agenda you've just been talking about, because of the implications for the Wales and Africa project of the floods. So, Carolyn, on to climate change and the nature emergency, and Llyr will come in with a supplementary, as a consequence.

Thank you. The Size of Wales brought leaders from the Wampís nation to meet with us in the Senedd, and they then went on to Wrexham, I believe, and I think they went to London as well, and it was great to meet with them. They were talking about them being the best guardians of biodiversity and tropical rainforest. The rainforest comprises less than 5 per cent of the—. Well, they are less than 5 per cent of the world's population, and indigenous people protect 80 per cent of the global biodiversity. The impact of deforestation, growing palm oil and soya, and also the impact of oil spills as well, has been awful for them. So, they were asking if we could encourage the disinvestment of pension funds in oil companies et cetera to help them. So, I was wondering if you could tell us more about the international relations work and your aim to combat the nature and climate emergencies. I know that Wales is part of the Beyond Oil & Gas Alliance, and we've got the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 as well, so we look to the long term. So, I just wondered how you work across countries with that.

Thanks very much. Well, I had the privilege of meeting those Wampís people as well and they were they were really remarkable people, and it was just such a privilege to have them in the Senedd and so appreciative of the work that we've been able to support them with. I think that is something that should be celebrated, and the fact that we are the only country, as far as I know, still in the world that have taken the UN sustainability goals, that have transposed them into law, and that that's what drives the framework for governance within Wales I think is something we should be really, really proud of. Fundamental to that is an acknowledgement and an acceptance that we have a responsibility to future generations, not just for the people of the next generation but also for the environment and the climate of the next generations.

We were the first Parliament in the world to declare a climate change emergency and we followed through in terms of recognising our responsibility to reduce carbon emissions. All of that I think are things that we should be proud of. But how far can we go with this stuff? We don't have the powers to ask pension funds to disinvest. That is just not a power that we have within Wales. Obviously, we can talk to other people about it, but there are limits to what we can do to influence within specific fields as well.

Could I just ask a supplementary? Under GB Energy there are plans in place, and fossil fuels are looking to change, I believe, under HyNet, Essar and INEOS are involved, and the idea is to do carbon capture and storage, which is part of the big plan. But they're looking to import carbon dioxide as well from other places so they can continue, and they're looking to import green ammonia, to create blue hydrogen, from India. So, I'm hoping that you will keep an eye on that and you will make sure that it will be used as a true transition from fossil fuels and they're not using it to hide under, to keep continuing with that. Because we are, as I said, a member of the Beyond Gas & Oil Alliance, and as a nation we want to move away from fossil fuels. So, just a plea to you there. Thank you.

I think that's a plea more than a question, but perhaps my question, linked into that, then, is obviously: this year, India has been the focus of Wales in India. I believe we're going to Wales in Japan next year. I suppose there's what discussions and what benefits we will have to ensure that, if you are doing trade deals with India—. You know, for a while we've lost Tata Steel, which is an Indian-owned company. So, what discussions are you having with the governments in India to look at how Wales benefits, rather than anything else? Because what we don't want to see is an agreement where we are the junior partner and we end up getting the worst side of things and the other partner gets the better side of things. So, what's the Welsh Government doing to ensure in schemes such as Wales in India, Wales in Japan next year, Wales in—I can't remember; Wales in France I think we've had—that we benefit from those schemes and do not become the junior partner that actually gets worse off?

I've done a lot of visits just this week with companies that have international parent companies. I went to visit Celsa, which is just across the road. Absolutely fascinating. You know we've all been hearing about the massive injection of cash that's going into providing an electric arc furnace in Port Talbot. They've already got one over there. They've invested £200 million in it and they didn't ask for any money. I just think it's really important that we kind of clock these things, that there are other things going on in our country and they've already tried to move from high carbon usage to electric. Now, with electric, you still need—. You know, what do you use to create the electricity? So, that's the next thing.

Now, there is going to be a transition. It's not going to be switched overnight. Most of us are still in diesel or petrol cars. There are not many people in electric vehicles yet. So, there is a transition and if we suddenly said, ‘Right, let's all stop’, lots of things would just stop. So, there has to be a transition phase. But we do have to prepare for what comes next and one of the things that they were interested in discussing was the switch to hydrogen, what happens, what does the network look like, how do you have to develop that, what does the long-term investment look like. Now, they're a company that—. They were owned by a Spanish company. They've just been sold again to another international company. So, that was the first meeting—so, really interesting in terms of the switch. 

Another meeting I've had this week was with Wales and West Utilities. So, they're the gas company. And again, you think, 'Gas, okay, no, you need to switch.' Actually, there's a transition that needs to happen and they're also interested in looking at what does the hydrogen network look like, what does that look like going forward. But, again, who owns Wales and West Utilities? It's actually a Hong Kong-based company. So, these are international companies that are making these investments, and you're quite right to say, 'Where are we in this?' Well, we need them to invest is the first thing and, if they don't invest, we're not going to get this transition. So, somebody has to pay for this transition and Government will not have the money to pay for the transition, so we have to get them onside. 

And the third visit I've done this week was to Statkraft UK, which is the Norwegian state-owned energy company. And what they were doing was investing in the grid and making sure that when the balance of renewables—. When the wind blows, suddenly there's a surge in the power and you have to just get it all balanced, and if you don't get it balanced you're wasting a lot of energy. So, again, all of that is about carbon reduction.

Sorry, I'm just telling you about my lovely week. But the point is they were all international companies that need to be investing, and they all recognise there's a transition. 

I fully appreciate the investment and it's nice to know what you've been doing this week, but I suppose the question still is: how do we, as a Senedd, actually assess the effectiveness of Welsh Government's relationships with other countries? So, if you're talking about Wales in India, how do we assess to make sure that the deals that are done, or anything that's achieved in that, is beneficial to Wales rather than a negative for Wales?

First of all, it's usually not a country-to-country relationship; it's a country-to-business relationship, so you don't have quite the same hold, then. You don't have quite the same influence over a company that can decide where and when they invest. So, I think we've just got to be realistic about how much influence do we have over these people. What we can do is to say, 'If you come to our country, these are the rules by which we play. We are committed to the future generations Act, we do have a social partnership Act—these are the rules that we expect you to play to.' So, I think within that context—. And don't forget, we're competing; we're competing here for this investment. They can go anywhere in the world. So, we need to make sure we get the right kind of investors and, obviously, there's a planning system that helps us to determine whether they are appropriate investors for what we're looking for. Andrew, do you want to come in?

Yes, thank you, First Minister. Just some concrete examples. So, in our Wales in France year, we were very focused and continue to be focused on port collaboration, which will help us exploit the Celtic sea and floating offshore wind in the future. No one port is capable of all that's required and so, working together, we've been linking ports, making sure that there's the space and availability to cope with that.

Another example would be Wales in Japan, which is to start on 9 January, but we've just signed a memorandum of understanding between the advanced manufacturing research centre in north Wales and Japan Marine United on the platforms. They have a very forward-looking design on the platform for floating offshore wind, and so they will be working in collaboration with the AMRC on the development of that platform, with a potential to link to some sort of production in south Wales that could then be deployed into the Celtic sea, because these are big items that need to be deployed close to where they will be used. 

And so those are two examples of how our international work is very much focused on something that will be practical and applied, but bringing organisations together to collaborate. It doesn't have to be—. And absolutely, there's the business to business, but this is about collaboration to pave the way for this opportunity in the future. That's how we're doing it.

Llyr, did you want to—?

Andrew, anything to add to that?

Exactly as you’ve described, First Minster, it is about reducing the potential for leakage, as opposed to specifically being about net-zero targets. But, over time, let’s see. Our own work is with the Department for Business and Trade, and feeding in a Welsh view into the UK Government thinking on this. So, yes, we are working on the CBAM, feeding into UK Government, and, over time, we will also see what the impact is and assess that.  

Diolch. Am I able to ask about EU-UK relations?

I'm going to go on to Mark first, and then I'll let you in. Mark, you've got questions on international relationships and international conflicts.

Yes, indeed, questions on international relationships—I’ll just get my notes up, if I may. One was in terms of the overseas offices. Wales has 20 overseas offices in 11 countries. I also note that, whenever the First Minister or another Welsh Government Cabinet Secretary or Minister makes an overseas visit in support of trade or inward investment and they issue a statement to Members advising them of their visit, those visits usually include engagement with the UK diplomatic service and meetings or events in the UK embassies or consulates. What cost-benefit analysis does the Welsh Government undertake to decide where to open its own office rather than utilise the facilities offered by the UK diplomatic service? And how, once offices are open, is that monitored?

Thanks very much. I think that there are certain areas where we were very keen to plant our flags, and the obvious places are where we already have strong relationships, where we could build those up, where we know that the import and export opportunities are greatest. What we do know also is that, where we have a presence, our ability to land resources from those countries is increased significantly. One of the things that I've been doing with the new UK Government is raising the point on every occasion that, actually, there is a responsibility—. This is a reserved area, generally, but if it is a reserved area, then the UK Government has got to do their job for us and they've got to do it properly. And whilst, when we have a presence in the embassies—and we're very clear, we are embedded with the UK embassies—those relationships are really good, what I'm concerned about, and obviously we can't have people everywhere, is those places where we don't have representation and where, actually, the UK Government is not flying the flag enough for the Welsh Government. I don't think that happened enough under the previous Conservative Government, and I am putting a lot of pressure on the UK Government to make sure that they are doing their job for us in those embassies around the world, where we have an assurance that there are events during the year where they promote Wales. I'm not convinced that that happens at the moment, and it's certainly something that I've brought up with new UK Government Ministers on several occasions already.

Thank you. I'd like to explore that further but there isn't time. I'll move on to, very briefly, one small question adding on to the answers you've given about relationships with the EU. On Senedd committee visits to Brussels, one of which included you, if I remember correctly, we had meetings in the Swiss embassy, where they expressed to us—and tell me if I'm wrong, but I think you were with me on at least one of these occasions—that they, post Brexit wanted to strengthen their relationships with the UK and its nations so that nations and countries that had interconnected relationships with the EU could work better together in common cause. So, I'm wondering, in addition to relations with the EU, either directly or via the UK Government, whether the Welsh Government has any relations with countries like Switzerland, which are outside the EU but nonetheless closely connected, in the way that they expressed a wish to have with us.  

Thanks very much, Mark. And yes, I remember that visit. It was a slightly depressing visit because it was just after Brexit and we were just trying to work out—. Well, it was depressing for me, I don't know how you felt about it, Mark—not because of your company, because I thought your company was wonderful, but just because we were adjusting to a new world, and clearly things have settled down now.

One of the things that I've done since I've become First Minister is to ensure that we have a regular invitation to embassies to interact with us. Just a couple of weeks ago, I was in London, and we gave an invitation to all of the embassies to attend an event with the Welsh Government, where we showcased, 'This is who we are, this is what we do.' So, I'm very keen to make sure that we go beyond the EU. There will always be a special relationship with the EU, and we're in the process of setting up a meeting with all of the EU members where I can make the case. I made the case very clearly to them that, as ambassadors, they need to get out of London. If they don't get out of London, they will not get a sense of what the UK is like.

None of them saw Brexit coming because they hadn't left London. And it was really interesting, had you got out of London—. And it's not just getting out of London, it's getting out of Cardiff as well. It's getting a sense of what is going on in the nation, and if they're not doing that, they're doing a disservice to their countries in giving false assurances in terms of what is going on in the country. So, that was a message that I gave very plainly to them. They're all now beating a door to Wales. So, we're trying to make sure that we do have those relationships, Mark, and I know in the past, certainly when I was international relations Minister, the Swiss ambassador was really active in coming to Wales very regularly, and I think was one of the people who attended our event in London. 

We have regular contact with the Swiss, in terms of general contact with the embassy, but also on the economic side and looking at the way that that relationship works between Switzerland and the trading bloc of the EU.

But also, as the First Minister said, we have an excellent working relationship with the EU ambassador to the UK, and it would be the EU ambassador for the UK that would convene the 27 ambassadors together. We've done that on one previous occasion with First Minister Drakeford, and it was an incredibly productive session, where each country was able to ask questions about Wales but also about the way that we work together. So, we're looking forward to that in the future also. 

I think it's really important as well, though, to manage expectations. We've got a really small department, if we're honest. This is an area that is reserved, so we have to just be sensitive to how much we can do in this space with the resources we have. So, some of this is about managing expectations because, whilst we'd love to do a huge amount more, part of what I'm trying to do here is to say, 'That's our international strategy, deliver that', because, actually, we could get distracted by lots and lots of countries saying, 'Oh, let's come and—.' You know, Andrew and his team could spend his whole time entertaining people who are on visits from embassies around the world. I'm trying to make sure that they spend their time delivering on the international strategy so that we're not being reactive all the time, but we're being proactive on the agenda that is important to us. That is actually quite delicate and quite difficult, because it means at times we're going to have to say, 'Do you know what, thank you very much, but we'll meet you two times a year or whatever, but actually, we will not be able to entertain you and take you on trips around Wales—that's not what we're up for'. So, it's a sensitive and difficult thing, but I'm very clear, unless we're focused on what we want to deliver, it's really easy to get distracted with this agenda, I think.

For the record, the EU ambassador to the UK has attended the Senedd on several occasions and has shown he's very keen to interact with the devolved nations as well. Llyr, do you want to raise a point?

Could you go through the priorities that we set out and that we made clear? There were a number of areas where we're keen to make sure that we drive change. The sanitary and phytosanitary veterinary agreement, for example, is an example of what we wanted to look at; mutual recognition of professional qualifications; improved mobility of workers to provide services; and rejoining programmes like Erasmus. Those are some of the priorities that we said, 'Right, Nick, if you're going to focus on anything, these are the things that matter to us'.

But those particularly relate to the trade and co-operation agreement. I was just thinking more widely in terms of a reset in relations.

There are a lot of moving parts in the world at the moment, aren't there? There's a lot of resetting going on. One of the ways in for our reset is in terms of making sure that we know what's going on in the European Union. It's been really helpful recently—we've got a very strong relationship with the Irish Government and they are very helpful to us in giving us a sense of how the European Union is feeling. Because, let's face it, I think they were probably a little bit upset with us for a long period of time. So, it's not as if we can go in there and start demanding, 'Can we be a part of this, that and the other?' I think we've upset them, and it's not going to be easy to turn that around, so, we need to get a sense of what's going on.

There's a lot of fragility in Europe at the moment. You've seen what's happening in France; you've seen what's happening in Germany. So, the powers, engines of change in Europe, are in a delicate situation. The whole situation in relation to NATO you've heard about this morning. There is a reset going on. And I think it's quite interesting; I think security might be a way in to that change that's happening.

So, what kind of outcome would best suit Wales, do you think, in terms of a reset? How far do you think we can get in the next few years?

We've been really clear that we want as close a relationship as we can get. We know that our exports are proportionately greater than other parts of the UK, that our inward investment largely comes from the European Union, so as close a relationship as possible is definitely the remit we want them to pursue. The question is: will they want to play on that ground? And obviously, the UK Government will have its own approach as well.

But you're making that pitch to the UK Government.

Oh, very, very clear, in terms of in relation to that. Is there anything we want to add to that?

No, I think that's absolutely—. And just the fact that that contact at that level—Nick Thomas-Symonds and beyond—is regular, the dialogue is open and it gives us an opportunity to feed in what are the priorities for us, absolutely.

And Stephen Doughty as well. He is a key Government Minister, and it's really helpful; we have a Cardiff MP who is really sensitive to the needs in Wales, who is out there, having those discussions with partners across the EU. So, we've got two Welsh people in key positions in terms of international relations now.

Lastly, Carolyn, on the EU, a supplementary?

Yes, please. I went with the culture committee to visit Brussels recently, and we delivered the 'Culture shock' report—the Chair's online here, so might be coming in—youth mobility was discussed, and also joining Creative Europe would be really welcome if we could. When we met with politicians and officials over there, they were saying that the next EU budget that would be funded from 2026 will be a seven-year plan, and, if we were to join a part of anything, we need to have serious discussions now, because it will be set from 2026 and would be for seven years. So, Creative Europe—. There are so many issues now with touring artists, so if there could be some movement on that, that would be really welcome, or if something could be done, if that could be included. Thank you.

Great, thanks. I think there are lots of programmes that we'd like to join. It was really good that we're back in Horizon. It was crazy that we left, but that was part of what happened, but it's good at least now that we're back in, and that is making a big difference for our universities and researchers. Obviously, there are those other areas, but I think there are quite a lot of discussions to go through before we get to that point, but, certainly, we'd be very much interested in co-operating and being participants in those spaces. But the lead is the UK Government, so we have to allow them to take the lead, but we're making it clear to them that we want in if we're going there.

And where we can, like the Taith programme, we've just gone ahead, and I think that, I hope, shows our commitment to—. When they're umming and ahing about whether they want to get involved in Erasmus, we're just cracking on and doing our own thing. But, obviously, in an ideal world, I think we'd like to be participants in a bigger programme.

Thank you.

Okay. I'll come back to Mark, who's also got questions on possibly the implications of international conflicts. Mark.

Possible implications of—

International conflicts. Ukraine and—

Sorry, yes. I misheard you. Thank you very much indeed. What updates can you provide on how the Welsh Government is supporting Ukrainian refugees in Wales, and what do you forsee or what next steps are you planning for in this context, especially bearing in mind the significant developments that might occur early in the new year with a new American president, if there is an enforced peace settlement and a new border established?

Thanks very much, Mark. We continue to stand in solidarity with the people of Ukraine and it's been good to welcome around 8,000 Ukrainians to our nation since the invasion in February 2022. Many of those, of course, came under our supersponsor route, and we've been very pleased to make sure that they're welcome from day one. Amelia has been following this programme in detail. Can I ask her to say a few words?

Yes, absolutely. So, the wraparound support continues for people who've fled Ukraine, with strong support within local authorities as well as our Wales sanctuary service and our sanctuary website. We've obviously anticipated there may be a rise in people fleeing Ukraine. At the moment, we're not seeing that. About nine individuals have come in the latest figures a couple of days ago in this financial year, but, clearly, we've got contingency plans in place if that's to rise. Because the UK Government have said to people fleeing Ukraine that they must use their permission to travel by mid February, if they're going to use that, so we may see a rise in people travelling. But, as I say, we have contingency plans in place and can build on really strong relationships with local authorities, that team Wales approach, and with the third sector, who have been fantastic in offering that support, so that we've got a real nation of sanctuary package.

Can I come in there? I fully welcome the support, because, obviously, in my own constituency, there were centres. There were one or two blips now and again, but we got over that. I suppose, in the future, as we look ahead—. You said that the UK Government's scheme is ending in mid February. The likelihood is that we might need to go beyond that. So, what discussions are you having with the UK Government to look at how that can be extended? Because if, as Mark Isherwood has highlighted, a new US President comes in and things change, first of all, while there might be peace, there might be nowhere for people to go back to, to start with, because there's been such devastation, but also people may wish to leave, because they won't be comfortable with whatever peace is there. So, what discussions are you having to ensure that the wraparound support continues for the long term and that you're in a position to take more if necessary, as people may wish to come and leave Ukraine?

There are very good discussions and relationships. Ministers are meeting, but also, at officials level, we discuss. So, people who've got permission to travel have to travel by mid February. There's a sort of sunset clause. That doesn't mean they can't apply then after that for a visa. But also the UK Government have made it clear that Ukrainians living in the UK can now apply, as from February, for permission to extend their visa, so that's in place as well. But the relationship's very good with UK Government, and information sharing is very strong. So, that dialogue is ongoing.

Okay. Mark.

Thank you. Moving on, clearly the war and the months leading up to it had a major impact globally on issues such as food prices and energy security. Can you provide your latest assessment, or your Government's latest assessment, of the war's impact on Wales?

We've obviously put our draft budget out this week, and, alongside that draft budget, we published the Wales economic and fiscal report for 2024. What we do know is that there have been significant uplifts in terms of the prices of food. So, food prices in September 2024 were 30 per cent higher than three years ago; energy prices up 41 per cent. So, there's no wonder people are feeling the cost-of-living crisis, and, of course, all that is baked in now, and that's part of the challenge for us.

It's very difficult to unpick the single cause for food price increases, for example. Certainly, some of it can be laid at the table of issues in Ukraine, but there are climate events. We've all seen what's happened in Spain recently, and someone was telling me that's the orchard of Europe, and there's going to be a knock-on impact. So, climate events. A reduction in migrant labour—so, there's nobody to actually pick the fruit in our country. That actually becomes a problem as well. Withdrawal from the EU. So, it's not just a single issue; it's not just about the war in Ukraine. The good news is that at no point have we faced shortages over a sustained period of time, so there is resilience within the system within the UK.

Jenny, you want a supplementary on this.

Yes. You talk about the reduction in migrant labour, but there are these specific agreements to enable people to come and pick the broccoli, or whatever it might be, for half the year. So, are we confident that they will remain, because, clearly, there are people in other countries who have skills that the Welsh labour force doesn't currently have?

Look, I think there are issues with labour in lots of different sectors, but this is an area, and, even if you grant visas, you know, do they want to come? So, there are lots of people across Europe who are looking for these migrant workers as well. So, just because you—

Obviously, it relates to how well we treat them when they get here.

Sure, yes. It's slightly different now, though, since we left the EU, because it's obviously for a short period of time.

Okay. Mark, do you have anything else on conflicts, as I know John wants to come in?

Very briefly, yes. What assessment have you made of Wales's contribution, if at all, to conflict in the middle east, and how are you engaging with the UK Government in that context?

Thanks. Well, look, we've all been really concerned to see what's been going on in the middle east, and I think the instability is far from over. So, it's the UK Government who take the lead on this. We've made it very clear that, in particular in relation to conflict in Gaza, we would like to see a sustained peace there, we want to see a ceasefire. But, in terms of what we can do within Wales, there are limits in terms of what we can tell companies to do. But what we can do is to make sure that we don't give financial support, for example, to companies that may be selling arms and things to the middle east. So, we've made sure that that, at least, is in place, and, where we can influence, we are trying to do that.

John, you've got a supplementary on this.

Yes. We've touched on it in Plenary sessions, haven't we, First Minister?

Yes.

And I do believe Wales has a moral obligation to do whatever it can to help in these flashpoint situations, where the level of suffering is just unimaginable, really. We’re so lucky, really, aren't we, in Wales, to be part of the relatively prosperous and peaceful world. I know that everybody on the committee and you would share that view that it does give us a moral obligation to carefully consider what's going on and what we might do to help. I think it's reached a point now, with Amnesty International and the international court making it clear that what's happening is tantamount to genocide in Gaza; it's of that level, it's of that nature. Disease is spreading, hunger is being used as a weapon of war and the suffering for women and children is just, as I say, unimaginable, and the amputations that children have suffered, many of them without anaesthetic because medical services and facilities have been destroyed. It's just absolutely horrific, isn't it?

I know, as you say, it's limited, perhaps, in terms of what Welsh Government can do, but, in that sort of situation, of that gravity, as the United Nations Secretary-General, António Guterres has said, nobody should be a bystander, everybody should think about what they might be able to do in any small way. So, I hear what you say about working with the UK Government, and that's very, very important and there are things around procurement and investment, and, as you say, particularly companies involved in the arms trade. So, I welcome a lot of what you've said on this, First Minister, but, in that letter from the future generations commissioner, he makes certain calls on Welsh Government, doesn't he, for action, and I wonder whether you're at the point where you've carefully considered what more you might do. There are certain asks, aren't there? Recognition of a Palestinian state is something that Palestine believes would be important in terms of moving things on a bit and eventually supporting some sort of beginning to a peace process. There's the question of—. When you talk about embassies from around the world, First Minister, should the Israeli embassy, the Israeli ambassador, the Israeli diplomatic staff be included in Welsh Government events? I just wonder whether there's anything more you can say, in addition to what you've already said, in terms of, as I say, the horrors of the situation, what more the Welsh Government might be able to do, and what you're thinking, perhaps, of doing.

Thanks very much. Look, it's a horrific situation and we watch it night after night on our tellies. It's the human suffering, as you say, of innocents. I think that's the thing that hurts the most, isn't it? I raised this with the Prime Minister last week in the British-Irish summit, just to make sure, because he's the one who has the influence in terms of the international relations. So, I took the opportunity to do that. As a Government, we have made a contribution to the DEC appeal, and I think the people of Wales have been really generous in terms of the DEC appeal, and, obviously, we need to keep on encouraging people to contribute to that.

In relation to the future generations letter, I think there has to be a recognition about the limitations of us as a Government in terms of our powers—it's limited to the powers we have within Wales. I think we've just got to make sure that we can go as far as we can within our powers, but we are not able to go further than that. And so asking us to disinvest in pensions and things, it is simply not within our powers to do that. So, whilst, of course, he should ask the question, there are limits to what we are able legally to do.

Can I ask a question, then, to save John? I fully appreciate that foreign affairs is a reserved matter, and the international relationships is a UK Government matter, but is it time that the Welsh Government made a statement of opinion that puts its case forward, or puts its position forward? It's not about taking action, because there are some things you couldn't take action on, but perhaps make a specific statement of support for the Palestinian people, to make sure that humanitarian aid is delivered, and that, as John said, the suffering comes to an end, because whilst some Governments are unable to take—. To be fair, the Israeli Government currently ignores many other Governments at this point in time, but it's about making sure that the voice is heard—if the actions can't be done, then the voice is heard. Has the Government thought of something it can do to make sure the voice is heard, of the Government?

Well, I think the very fact that we have engaged in the DEC appeal, that we've encouraged people to contribute to the DEC appeal, is a demonstration of our support for the situation, I think. I think we've just got to be sensitive and careful in terms of when we engage with international relations, because if we do it for this, why aren't we doing it for Ukraine, why aren't we doing it for that? You start a whole area of how engaged are we getting in international affairs. So, I think, if it's got a very clear Welsh angle to it, then it's possible to do it, but if we go beyond that, I think we're just opening—. I keep on coming on back to, 'Let's focus on delivery. What are we able to do, where shall we be focused, what difference can we make?' I'm really keen to make sure that we're focused on delivery, rather than writing papers. What is it we can do? What difference can we make? The DEC appeal is a practical difference we can make.

Jenny.

Focusing on delivery, one of the unique selling points of Wales is its success in pioneering sustainable, prefabricated timber-framed housing. If we could ever get peace in Syria and Palestine, what conversations might you have had with the UK Government about the transfer of knowledge to enable the rebuilding of homes that are being destroyed by these dreadful wars? In Germany, they seem to be wanting to send Syrians back on the next plane to Syria, where, at the moment, their neighbouring countries continue to bomb them. Clearly, we need a Government with whom to converse, but I just feel that we can't expect people to return home if they've got no home to go to. We have to help these people reconstruct when the situation makes that possible. In Gaza, that is not yet possible, but, in Syria, it could be made possible. We just don't know, obviously, how it's going to play out.

So I assume the question is: what discussions are you having with the UK Government as to how to involve us in such an approach?

Look, I think the situation is still very, very unstable over there, so it's probably too early for those conversations at this point.

Llyr.

In telling us that you felt that if you made an unequivocal statement about Palestine, then you're opening the risk, then, of having to state this, that and the other—

I think I've made plenty of unequivocal statements about Palestine. I've made it clear that we want to see a ceasefire. I've made it clear that the hostages should be released. I've been as clear as I can be, so I don't know how many more statements you want me to give. I have given statements.

It sounded to me as if you were saying, because you can't call out all of the wrong in the world, you won't call out any of the wrong in the world. 

Well, I think I have been pretty clear.

Now, what people are asking for is a definitive statement from Government that what Israel is doing is wrong, for the reasons that John outlined. You may be saying this, that and the other, but we're not hearing that definitive statement that it's wrong, it shouldn't be happening and, for example, that we acknowledge Palestine as a state in its own right.

I can point out to you several occasions where I've actually made that statement on the floor of the house. So, if that would be helpful, I could send that to the committee.

And I've got Carolyn.

I'm very grateful for the money that went through the DEC appeal. You met with the Palestinian ambassador. I remember you were part of a small group of us, and he asked if we could help with medical aid, perhaps, and I understand we did help with Ukraine as well. From the old rainbow hospitals, we had beds that went to help. So, I was wondering if that could be a possibility.

We've restarted, haven't we, the opportunities for people in the NHS to be able to go and work abroad. So, I think that is a signal. That had stopped for a while, so we've restarted that. Do you have any more information on that? I think it's more in the health side of things.

And products as well—items that might not be used by our NHS or of a good enough standard, but they'd be desperate for over there, perhaps. I was thinking about that side of things as well.

We can look into the practicalities of that. All of that, it would be amazing to do.

Yes.

It would take a hell of a lot of resources, a hell of a lot of people, a hell of a lot to organise. And you keep on telling me, 'What are you doing about delivery?' Every time you ask me to do something else, you're taking it away from what we said we were going to do. So, I'm just trying to get you to get the same place as I'm trying to get the officials, which is, 'We said we're going to do that. Don't get distracted. Let's carry on', because otherwise you lot will be hauling me in and saying, 'Why haven't you delivered?' And the answer is, 'Because you've been telling me to do other things.' So. I'm trying to be clear in terms of, 'Stick to your priorities, stick to what we said we're going to do', because I can just imagine how much work that would take. That means engaging with the NHS at a time, in the middle of winter—it's just that the task around that, to do something that sounds really simple, would be enormous. So, I'm trying to get really practical, and I'm also trying to get people to say 'no', because we can't do everything. If you want us to deliver, we're going to have to say 'no' more often.

I think it's important for me to tell you this, because you're representing the Chairs of the committees here. I know you do great work on the committees, but when we get 100 recommendations, in future, you're going to get a hell of a lot more noes from us, because every time you ask us to do something, you are distracting us from our core activity. Now, if there are things that add and help us to deliver the core activity, great. But you'll be getting a lot fewer 'yesses in principle'. I think it's probably more honest for us to say, 'We're not doing it.' But I just want to make that clear today, and I'm making it clear to the commissioners as well—the children's commissioner, the older people's commissioner—if you come up with 100 priorities for us, we're going to be saying 'no' a lot more often, because it's all about delivery. And the more you ask us to do, the more you're distracting us from our core purpose. You might not like it, but that's where I'm at, I'm afraid.

Well, I think committee Chairs will appreciate, perhaps, the straightness of some of the answers, but it won't stop committee Chairs pointing out some of the issues they want to highlight to the Government, because I'm sure they will do the investigations, they will do the inquiries, and they will report back on them honestly and fully and put the cases to the Government, and that's the role of the committee Chairs, as you're fully aware, First Minister.

But I'd be grateful if you, as Chair, would communicate that also to the rest of the committee Chairs. I will send a letter, following this, just to make that clear, because I think it's important to manage expectations but also to stop people wasting their time. Gives us 10 things that we can deliver rather than 40 where we won't deliver. We'll struggle to deliver 40. I'd rather deliver 10 that are really important to you that will help us to deliver what we're talking about. I just think, 'Let's get really practical here.'

I'm sure we can make sure the Chairs forum is aware of your comments. 

Thank you. 

We've got 10 minutes left in this session and, Mark, do you have any more questions? 

Yes, not on that, but on the next matter, if you'd like me to move on to it. But, on that last point, I will emphasise that the committee I chair is focused not on asking the Welsh Government to do more but to deliver more effectively and efficiently, and our recommendations are always focused on seeking to help in those areas.

But on the actual question, in relation to the nation of sanctuary, you may recall that, in January, the then Minister for social justice, Jane Hutt, stated that the nation of sanctuary plan would be refreshed. However, in June, Lesley Griffiths, her then successor, said she'd asked for this work to be paused and stated that, instead, the plan would be updated. And last month, an updated anti-racist action plan was published, which included a new nation of sanctuary chapter. Is this chapter the update and has it replaced the nation of sanctuary plan?  

Thanks very much, Mark. So, as I said, more generally—before I answer your question—I am trying to get the Government to do fewer strategies. What's fascinating is watching the civil service—sorry, guys—recreate the wording, 'So, we're not doing strategies any more; we're refreshing strategies or we're doing action plans, or we're doing this—'. So, it is really interesting, because the automatic go-to place is, 'Let's write a new document', whereas I'm trying to say, 'Can you stop writing documents? Can you deliver on what's in the document in front of you, please?' So, I'm trying to get to a different place. It's quite difficult to turn the Government machine around, but that's where I'm at. 

So, there was a suggestion that we would do a refresh of the nation of sanctuary, but there has been this anti-racist action plan now, and the nation of sanctuary chapter is built into the anti-racist action plan. So, all our commitments now are in one place. Amelia, would you like to add to that?

Yes, absolutely. We think that brings great strength because there's very strong governance around the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. I know the committee will know I have an external accountability group that's chaired by the Permanent Secretary and Professor Emmanuel Ogbonna, with lots of people with lived experience and expertise. So, they're overseeing the whole of the plan. It means that we can take a really integrated approach across the plan. The nation of sanctuary is then linking more closely to actions around health, education, culture, et cetera. So, we feel it's very, very strong.

But also, to just reassure the committee, the governance is still in place for the nation of sanctuary work as well. We have a strategic board that the Minister co-chairs. We have officials' meetings with the UK Government, and across the board with our third sector and non-devolved and devolved partners. So, the governance is still really there but it means streamlining and really concentrating on delivery, focusing on that delivery of the whole plan.  

John. 

I hear what you say about strategies and action plans, First Minister, but I think the nation of sanctuary and the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' are very, very good and, as you say, now it's, hopefully, about implementing them. I just wanted to ask about the recent change at the UK Government level in the move-on period, extending it from 28 to 56 days for those newly recognised as refugees, and what the implications are for devolved services and how we'll need to adapt and respond to fit in with that new reality.

Amelia.

So, again, because of that—I know I keep using it, but it's been so important—team Wales approach, we've had a really good relationship with WLGA, local authorities, Government and the Wales strategic migration partnership. So, we've really welcomed that extension to 56 days; it gives much more chance, as the committee will know, to find homes and accommodation—well, homes for people who've been given refugee status. So, we've been preparing and hoping that that would happen, that has happened, so that's incredibly welcome.

Mark, do you want to come back as well?

Could I just add, just very quickly—

Mark first.

I've a brief question. The nation of sanctuary model in Wales is about how people are treated and welcomed when they arrive here, but immigration and asylum are reserved to the UK Government, and the UK Government has made it clear—the new UK Government, as previously—that it's focused on controlling immigration. So, how do you connect or disconnect the two issues: how we treat people when they get here, and how the UK Government controls numbers? What discussion, if any, are you having with the UK Government regarding that?

I'll start and then ask Amelia to come in. So, I met with the UK Minister for Migration and Citizenship, Seema Malhotra, in November, and that was alongside Jane Hutt. I think it's the first time we've had a Home Office Minister come to Wales for an official meeting, so that in itself is really interesting. The Home Office is not traditionally somewhere that exactly warms to the devolved structures, so I think that was really, really positive. I know that the Cabinet Secretary has met with the UK Minister for Border Security and Asylum, Angela Eagle, and the UK Minister for Faith, Communities and Resettlement, Lord Khan. So, we recognise that immigration is very much a lead for the UK Government, but you're right that there are cross-overs: when we get people coming to our countries, then we have a responsibility to make sure that they are well looked after and cared for. Amelia.

Yes. In terms of that, because immigration isn't devolved, we have to work within the programmes that the UK Government sets in place, but then absolutely take our fair role and proportionate role in that and in making Wales a nation of sanctuary. We're building on a lot of experience around Syrian refugees, refugees from Afghanistan, and again, bringing all that learning together, so that we can give the most positive response we can in terms of supporting refugees within Wales—and other sanctuary seekers, I should say.

Okay. I'm going to give John—. You're okay, John, yes? I'm conscious of the time, and we're coming to the end of this session, so I'll close, if that's okay with Members, on this session. It's a simple request, I suppose. You're telling us an awful lot about no more strategies, no more documents, but delivery, and I suppose what we as Senedd Members will want is to have information updates to see how you're doing, to be able to assess your progress. And you talk about the annual report, but I think, if that's the case, we need to make sure that the detail in the annual report allows us to do our job properly. So, I suppose it's a plea from me—or for all Members, and particularly for Delyth's committee—for you to ensure that the detail is there, so that we can undertake that consideration, that scrutiny of the work, and to see whether you are delivering or not. So, it's a call from me, perhaps, for you to be able to do that.

Absolutely. I now have a delivery Minister, and we are going through the entire programme for government to make sure what have we delivered, where are we short, what is it that we've got left to do. So, the international strategy will form a part of that. There are areas within the strategy that are green, which have been done, they've been delivered. There are bits where it may be red and will continue to be red, and then we need to give you an explanation for why it is red. But there are lots of amber bits in there that we need to say, 'Right, come on, we've got 18 months left; let's get cracking, let's make sure we deliver on what we said we were going to do.' So, that is very much the formula that I'm very keen to make sure that you have sight of, where it is we're delivering, and also where you need to hold us to account because we're not.

That's wonderful news. As you highlighted, there will be fewer 'accept in principle' responses, because you're asked by committees to do some things. The information as to why you haven't achieved something is also helpful, in a sense, so it's a two-way honesty streak in one sense, isn't it?

Yes.

And with that, I will bring the first session today to a close. We will now take a 10-minute break, and we'll come back at 11:40 for the next session, which will be on topical issues that we may wish to raise with you, First Minister.

Thank you; can't wait.

Let's move into private.

Can I welcome Members back to this morning's meeting of the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister? We now move on to the second session, which is focused on topical issues. I would like to start this morning, First Minister, with the issue around Holyhead. We have been hearing, of course, that the infrastructure damage to the port has resulted and is resulting in, it looks like, another week of the port being closed, on top of the six days it's already been closed, which is causing difficulties for many businesses, the transport between the UK and Ireland, because as we know from when we did our Brexit review, that is the second busiest port in the UK. So, can you tell us what actions the Welsh Government is taking to look at this issue and particularly to try and open it as soon as possible, and if not open it, what alternatives can be put in place to ensure that freight can move between the UK and Ireland through our Welsh ports?

Well, thanks very much. It is a very difficult situation at a very busy time of the year for those ports. So, the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales met with Stena yesterday and also with the chief executive of Anglesey council to get an update on the situation. We've been told that the port will be closed until Thursday 19 December. What is happening is operators are going to be deploying capacity to other ports, but there's no clarity at the moment in terms of where that available capacity is because, as you said, about 50 per cent of the trade to Ireland goes through that one Holyhead port.

I know that Ynys Môn council are really concerned about welfare conditions, heavy goods vehicle parking, and unauthorised parking at the site, so they're working on that. I'm afraid the situation is exacerbated by the fact that there's currently full closure of the Britannia bridge due to an incident, so that has added to the complexities of the situation. So, local traffic will be affected, and obviously we will work and do as much as we can as the Welsh Government to help support the local authority and Stena. But storm Darragh has wreaked havoc, as you know, on our communities, and this is a consequence of that.

I appreciate that storm Darragh and storm Bert were both basically terrible for communities, because many of our communities are still struggling, but I suppose my question now is: did the Welsh Government have any sort of preparation or plan in place for a possible scenario such as this? And what discussions are you having with the UK Government in particular to look at how we can ensure that, in future, if this situation arose again, there would be a plan in place for alternative provision?

Thanks very much. There was a huge amount of preparation for storm Darragh, and the fact that we had one of the biggest storms we've had in years and we didn't see anybody lose their lives, I think, was quite significant, and some of that was because of the preparation work. Some of it, I think, was because the public heeded that alarm system, which—. There weren't many people in Wales who weren't aware that there was a storm coming, and people responded really responsibly to that, and didn't leave their homes, and I think that saved a lot of the situations. Obviously, every company and organisation needs to have their own contingency plans in place for this kind of eventuality, and the Government can do what we can to stand by those organisations. But what we can do now is to give that support where we can and to help divert people to alternative mechanisms of getting across the Irish sea.

Llyr, did you want to raise something?

Before I bring Russell in on his questions, I want to go back to the storm, because obviously Holyhead is a very serious consequence of the storm. I'm very pleased, as well, as you are, First Minister, that we didn't see anyone lose lives in Wales as a consequence of the storm. But there were many communities and many people who were left without power, which meant that they had serious problems. It was cold weather. There were people who needed medical equipment operating. Are you now going to convene a meeting with all the relevant bodies to ensure that the vulnerable people are identified early so that there's better co-ordination in how we respond, to ensure that the vulnerable people in our communities are not left long-term without power, without heating and without any medical support?

Thanks very much. Well, what we know is that the electricity companies have a list of vulnerable people who they have; local authorities have a list as well. I spoke to the chief executive of one local authority this week just to talk about are those are co-ordinated, is everybody checking that these people are safe, and that they—. Has somebody checked on them? So, there has been a degree of co-operation. After every incident like this, I'm really keen to make sure that we learn the lessons, and we learned the lessons from the storm that we had just a couple of weeks ago in terms of people telling us that they didn't have enough advance warning. My god, they had advance warning this time. So, we learn the lesson every time. There will be lessons to be learned as a result of this most recent storm. 

I'm pleased to say that, by now, almost everyone has been reconnected. I think that there are 109 customers who are still off power in west Wales, but, if you think about the numbers that they have reconnected, we're talking about well over 0.5 million people who have been reconnected. I'd just like to pay tribute to the people in those energy companies who've been going out in really, really tough conditions to reconnect people. 

I think some of this is also about managing expectations. I think that's partly where things have gone wrong, with some of the electricity companies suggesting that the power might come on and then it doesn't. So, it's really important to manage expectations correctly in this space and make sure that we are there to support people and that their local authorities are there to support them. I think they've done sterling work. I was with the leader of RCT council yesterday. These people have been up all night preparing, making sure that the floods don't happen again on the scale that they did. There are people who have been absolute heroes in the past three weeks, and I want to pay tribute to them. 

Thank you. Can we all pay tribute to them? Personally, I would like to say 'yhank you' to all of the council workers, social workers and the electricity workers who have been out there helping people—because it is a difficult time; we appreciate the work that they have done—and also some of the local representatives who have also been on the ground giving us that information; I know that many of those have also been out helping people. Russell.

Diolch, Chair. Good morning, First Minister. How much is the increase in employer national insurance contributions going to cost the public sector in Wales—particularly broken down by department as well? And how much is it going to cost the Welsh NHS as an employer?

Thanks very much. Well, as you know, Russell, it's fairly easy to make those calculations because we know how many people are employed, we know what's happening, but it's up to each organisation to make sure that they do that breakdown. What we do know is that the UK Government has said that they will cover the costs of national insurance contributions for people who are directly employed in England, and we will get a consequential for that. 

I think, First Minister, you mentioned yesterday in an interview that you wouldn't know that figure until May or June next year, but, of course, the increase is coming in from April. So, do you think that that's adequate, and what are you doing to get that consequential sooner and having that information sooner, before the national insurance contributions kick in?

Well, look, it's not a terribly satisfactory way for us to be able to manage our budgets, not knowing, but it's not something new. When the Conservatives were in Government—. If you think about last year, we had to really, really tighten our belts, we had to make lots of cuts in lots and lots of different places because we didn't know what was coming in. And then, at the end of the day, we had a massive amount of lump-sum money from the UK Government right at the end of the year. So, it's not a satisfactory way to be running an economy, really. We have made that clear. I've made that clear to Rachel Reeves, in terms of recognising that we need better sight so that we can plan for the year. So, national insurance is going to be one of those areas where the detail, the actual detail of how much are we getting, depends on them doing the calculations in England first and then us getting the calculations here. 

No, I appreciate that, and I remember, on many occasions in the past, when the UK Government was in power, you making the same point about not having that information early enough and of course are now putting the challenge back, so I'm pleased that you're raising this with Rachel Reeves. Of course, the Scottish Government is predicting a shortfall of £200 million in their budget as a result of the national insurance contributions, so what kind of analysis have you done, as the Scottish Government have done, and, if not, why not?

Well, as I say, each of the Governments departments, and—. If you think about who actually employs people in the NHS, it's not us; it's the health boards themselves who have to come up with those calculations, and then feed them to us. So, they are working through that at the moment, and they will I'm sure be letting us know what the shortfall is, as local authorities are as well.

I wouldn't have thought it would be too difficult for each health board to work that out and let you know, so what's the delay in passing that information to you?

They're working through them. We obviously need to look at not just health boards; we need to look at local authorities, we need to look at teachers, all of those people who are directly employed—so, all of those—until we've got a comprehensive review view on what we need think we're owed. We'll obviously be clear to the UK Government what we think the shortfall is, but they have made it clear to us that—, You know, we're not expecting to hear about that until a lot later. So, I'd rather get the calculations right and go to them with a proper calculation that has been properly thought through.

I suppose—and this the last question, Chair, on this issue—I suppose my question is: there was an announcement yesterday, or you confirmed yesterday in the interview an extra £1.5 billion for public services in Wales. But it's just trying to understand how much of that is actually going to go back to the Treasury and when that information and detail will be known.

I think you've got to be careful. There's a lot of smoke and mirrors that people are trying to portray here. We have been told we will be getting additional funding from HM Treasury to cover national insurance for people who are directly employed. What we don't know yet is exactly how much that is, because, obviously, they have to make their calculations, and it's based on a formula; it's based on a Barnett formula that we just need to recognise. So, until we know how much they're paying, we can't be exactly sure how much we're going to get, but what we have been told is people who are directly employed will be covered.

Okay, Russell?

Yes, thank you, Chair.

Llyr, since we're on the NHS.

Russell's got a supplementary, he wants to come in.

Thank you, Chair. Just to pick up on the £50 million that Llyr raised with you, First Minister, it was certainly my understanding that the health Minister had said that £50 million would be issued to health boards immediately. But you seemed to say that that £50 million will only be released when plans come forward, so can I just check on that? Is it the same £50 million or a different £50 million?

No, it's the same £50 million. So, that is, they can get on with the job immediately, but we will be holding them to account, and, if it's not given to them, then we'll be clawing it back—if they don't deliver, we'll be clawing it back.

Okay. Thank you. And then, secondly, Powys health board, I know, has received—. I think £40 million has been issued so far—that's my understanding—of the £50 million. That was as of last week. Powys health board only received 0.66 per cent of that £40 million. So, can I have an understanding of why Powys health board received such a poor settlement from that £50 million? I understand, of course, that they're not providers themselves, but they have to pay for provision.

It's precisely because they're not providers themselves. And what we're doing here is mostly paying for people to do additional work on weekends and overnight. So, that's where most of the money is going, and, obviously, if you don’t have a district general hospital where you're doing that, then you won't need that money.

Llyr, a small point.

I'll come back then, shall I, Chair?

Yes, please.

Russell, I'll come back to you.

I think you said come back to me—thank you, Chair. Sorry, First Minister, just to dig into that Powys health board issue, I understand that you're saying that they're not going to be provided with the additional funding, or a substantial amount of it, because they're not providers themselves, but does that mean that other providers in Wales will then not recharge Powys health board for services that they're providing for Powys patients? I'm just trying to understand.

Look, this is very much targeted at the longest waits, so it depends where those longest waits are in terms of where that money is allocated, as well. So, we need to see the turnaround and the offer by the health board. So, I can't tell you the detail of what the offer was from Powys, but I can get back to you on the detail of how that's been worked out, if you'd like.

Yes, thank you. I'd appreciate that, because I think there's some detail there that I'm not quite clear on in terms of how the funding is allocated across health boards, but we can certainly exchange in written form. Thank you, First Minister.

Jenny, did you have a supplementary on this?

Yes. Obviously, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care made some pretty tough statements about the need to apply the principle of adapt, adopt or justify, where good practice is not travelling fast enough. But one of the issues that came up yesterday in the Royal College of Nursing round-table, which I was at with two other Members, was absolutely clear in that health and social care are not working well together, and that's something that's going to need Welsh Government intervention. There've been the beginnings of change, with the pink army in Cardiff, et cetera. But other nurses from around Wales were saying that, actually, often, social care and health have contradictory aims and contradictory objectives, because health wants to get people out of hospital, keep them out of hospital and prevent them coming into hospital. Social care is managing a budget and is trying to find ways of avoiding paying for particular things for particular individuals. So, how are we going to deal with this, given that we don't have all the levers here, in the sense that this is, obviously, something that the UK Government needs to grapple with?

Look, this is not new. We're not suddenly waking up and thinking that there's a relationship between health and social care; this is something that the Welsh Government has understood for a very long time, and, in fact, when we've got into trouble in the past, it's because we've said, 'We're going to put the money into social care', because there is a direct relationship. So, what we've done now is we've got this specific budget, called the RIF—I can't even remember what it's called—regional integration fund, and there's about £144 million in there and they're not allowed to use it unless they work together. That is an example of what—. We had the parliamentary review that looked into how we should organise the health services in Wales, and this was something that they recommended, and we've followed through and we've been getting them to work together. There's more we can do.

We've put more money this financial year, for example, into reablement. One of the key things we need to do—. Now, reablement is, actually, for local government, as you know, Carolyn, and, for me, it's really important that we try and get people back on their feet to be independent, and the longer you leave them in hospital, the more they become deconditioned and the bigger the packages of care you have to give. So, that's an example of where, if you want to help the NHS out, you need to get reablement services sorted, and to do that you need to start recruiting more people in that space. All of that is happening, but it's how much more can you do all the time?

I want to bring Mark in now. Mark's got a hand up. 

Picking up on one of your earlier responses on this section, bodies ranging from hospices to drug and alcohol treatment providers are telling me that they're facing staff redundancies and significant cuts in services unless additional support is provided directly to them, and that that will ensure that the demand on the NHS increases and swallows up any increase in resource funding provided directly to the NHS. Simply putting the money through health boards and enabling them to make their own discretionary spending decisions is creating very differential patterns across Wales—some are better than others at passing that money on. How can you ensure or will you ensure oversight, even where that local discretion applies, to ensure that key services, which will reduce demand on hospitals and secondary care provision, can be sustained rather than forfeited?

Thanks very much. Well, I've always been very concerned about hospices in particular, and, in the budget last year, it was a real struggle to find additional money. We were really up against it last year financially and had to make very, very difficult decisions in relation to health. But the one area that I made sure that we put additional funding into was hospices, and I know that the current health Secretary has also made that a priority. So, there is extra funding going into hospices, because I'm very clear that if those hospices don't survive, it will just fall back on the NHS and then we'll have a bigger problem on our hands. So, that is something, I know, that the director general in health in Wales is very, very aware of. So, certainly, when it comes to hospices, I think there is an understanding of the huge contribution that they make.

[Inaudible.]—from a hospice this morning, for example,

'Whilst we welcome the news of the £3 million reoccurring payment from Welsh Government, hospices need financial support right now, to be able to maintain our current level of clinical services.' 

This is a hospice that is having to face urgent decisions regarding cuts now, and I know they've written to the Welsh Government this morning. 

Well, I'll make sure that the health Secretary is aware of that. But, as I say, the fact that they've had that extra £3 million that we've announced already, if that wasn't there, they would have been in a much worse situation.

Jenny, one question on this, and then we'll go to John. 

I just need to pursue this. A regional integration fund is one thing, but it's not having the impact on the ground that is needs to have. So, I'm really concerned to understand how we're going to ensure that all the extra money we're going to put into health is actually going to be spent on really changing the performance, because, clearly, that's the only way we're going to change the waiting lists. How are we going to actually get local authorities and social services and health working better together, and ensure that they see that they're all trying to serve the individual?

So, with that regional integration fund, I'm happy to give you a breakdown, Jenny, of where that money is spent and how—

No, I'm not wanting that; I'm wanting to understand how you think you're going to get the cultural change to get two separate services that are funded quite differently—one is free, the other is based on your income—. There's a lot of complexity around that, around individual families who don't want to use their relative's savings.

So, you're talking about paying for care.

Well, there's that, too, but I think if you—. I went to Arrowe Park in the Wirral, and they absolutely have a really integrated system for ensuring that people are leaving hospital as soon as they are ready to leave, and we're just not there. We have hundreds of people in all our hospitals who are delayed because social services don't accept the assessment that's already been done on mental capacity, for example, that's been done by health professionals—'No, we need to do our own.' I just don't see the change that we absolutely have to have.

There are a couple of things there. One is I actually think we have to get ahead of it. We have to stop people from going into hospital, and that's what a lot of the RIF is about. It's about stopping them from going in, because this is about getting up-river. And there are some great examples where it's working really, really well.

The community nursing team is excellent at it.

So, all of that is working really well. When I was health Secretary, we established the care action committee, and the care action committee had monthly meetings with local authorities to knock heads together in terms of health and social care. We focused in on some really clear areas—what is it we're going to shift, because this is a big, massive problem? So, unless you get back to the delivery—what are going to do, what are you going to deliver on?—you can do this, or you can actually just make sure something is delivered this winter. So, we really focused on—and you'll know this, Jenny—increasing the number of nurses in the community—people are ill on the weekends, how about that?—to make sure that there are nurses in the community on the weekends and that they're there overnight, and palliative care in the community. How do you keep people from going in? All of that is happening, Jenny. In pockets, it's better than in other places.

The trusted assessors that you're talking about, and the assessments, there's been massive progress on that. Actually, yes, you're right—there used to be somebody doing an assessment and then somebody else wouldn't accept that assessment in terms of—

That's still going on.

—whether they're able to leave or not. So, we've got a whole system now of trusted assessors. We have ensured that health boards have trained people up to be trusted assessors. All of that has increased massively. These are things that happened as a result of that care action committee being really, really focused. How many trusted assessors did we have this time last year? If you compare that to how many we've got now, it's increased massively. I think it's really important that people recognise that things change, things improve. You may not hear about them, but, behind the scenes, there is huge shift going on here: there are more people in our communities looking after people; and the trusted assessors. That's exactly what we did on the care action committee, to focus in on no more than three things—what are we going to deliver this winter? On the care action committee, one of them was the trusted assessor side of things.

I'm conscious of the time we have, and we haven't discussed anything other than health, other than the issue of Holyhead. We still have a few things we need to cover, and I want to move on to transport. If we've got time, we'll come back to this. John, on transportation, and then Carolyn.

Could I just mention something on health first, Chair? 

If it's very quick, because we've done an awful lot on health.

I just wondered if there's any more you can say about—. You mentioned the average waits, the long waits, First Minister. When it comes to orthopaedics and those hip replacement and knee operations, could you say anything about your expectations as to how we're going to see that extra investment bringing those waiting times down, and by when? Do you have clear expectations on that?

So, actually, we've seen massive improvement in this space, particularly in the Swansea area, and what's made a big difference there is having a self-contained hub, so that you're pulling people away from accident and emergency, and they can just crack on. 

Those numbers have come down massively in Swansea. We're in the process of developing a new centre up in north Wales in Llandudno. There is a hub there already, but it's old and decrepit and now there's going to be a new, very exciting one in Llandudno. So that's good, and that's coming. I went to visit it quite recently. It is coming along. I can't remember the exact time frame. I think it was next spring they're hoping to get that up and running. So we will see a marked contrast once you get efficiencies in the system.

Some of it is also about efficiencies. It's about, actually, people working better—turn up on time and get started on time. If you look at the efficiencies within the system, in the private sector, they are there. They're operating at 8 o'clock in the morning. That doesn't always happen in the NHS. And if you do that day after day after day, you are actually missing big numbers of people. So it's making sure you get those efficiencies so we've got optimisation of the system.

We've brought in these new experts, actually people who have been working in England, who are coming in. We've got this GIRFT thing—get it right first time. They go in, and they just look at how are people working and say, ‘Why isn't that patient there in time? What's the problem? Oh, the porter’s not ready. Why isn't the porter ready?’ So it's just kind of tightening up the entire system, and sometimes there are efficiencies that we're missing. So, breathing down people's necks, doing a bit more transparency in terms of why is it that that orthopaedic surgeon can do five a day, and that one's doing two or three—a bit more transparency on those systems. I know that's where the health Secretary is keen to go next. But, on orthopaedics, I'm confident that things are getting better in that space, and they needed to.

I will remind Members she's not the health Minister anymore, she's the First Minister, and therefore we have other priorities also to explore.

This is on integrated transport, Cadeirydd. I wanted to raise with you, First Minister, the situation with the Burns commission report and delivery following the decision not to proceed with an M4 relief road, because we're obviously some years on from that decision having been made, but there hasn't been a great deal of improvement on the ground in terms of integrated transport and dealing with those problems on that stretch of the M4 around Newport. So Burns has pronounced, as it were, that there should be five new rail stations and investment in the rail lines in that area. The question is when we're going to see this work actually happening. There's also some road work at the Old Green crossing in Newport that is required, and it is quite a big project. Obviously, the relationship with the UK Government and the necessary funding is very important to all of this. What are your expectations in terms of this? That decision was made about the M4 relief road, Burns has pronounced, and everybody’s waiting, really, for the work to start. Is there anything that you can tell us today?

Thanks very much. You're right. I think we've got a responsibility. We didn't develop the M4 relief road, there is still a problem, and Burns has set out some recommendations, and we do need to make sure that we fulfil our obligations to improve the situation in relation to the M4. Part of the problem has been a lack of funding for that kind of infrastructure that you talk about. Clearly, we are in discussions with the UK Government about rail infrastructure, and the fact that we've been short-changed, and I will keep pursuing that. I think there are opportunities for us around this, but making sure that we try and do what we can to avoid congestion in that part of the world is still a fundamental problem in terms of driving the economy of south Wales.

In terms of timescale, is there anything you can say, First Minister, in terms of when we might expect to see the necessary work beginning?

As I say, on some of that, if it's about rail infrastructure, it means that it's very much in the UK Government's ambit, and those conversations are very active.

Carolyn on transport and roads. 

Thank you. Connectivity is the people's priority, and I'm glad it's one of yours, so I'd like to ask you how we're going to empower people to be part of that. I know there was an issue with the roll-out of the 20 mph, so what about empowering people regarding bus networks? There's a £1.6 billion backlog of local pavements, roads, bridges, and I'm really pleased that capital funding is going into that. So, how do we empower or enable local authorities to deliver within this next financial year? What are you doing to help them deliver that on the ground, get that money there into our communities? Thank you.  

Thanks very much. Just a couple of things on that. First of all, you're right—we've got to empower local people. On 20 mph, I think we've got to celebrate the fact that, actually, there's been a huge reduction in accidents, it's saved lives, and there are children around today that wouldn't have been if we hadn't introduced that. So, we've got to celebrate that and recognise it. I think at the same time we've got to recognise that, perhaps, in some local authorities people used the exceptions more actively than others, and that's why it is important now that that feedback loop from the public goes into local authorities and comes back out. Local authorities are reassessing them. There are pockets around the country where I think there is a need to see more of those exceptions, and you saw some of those highlighted yesterday.

And I just think it's really important, though, that safety has got to be first—safety has got to be the priority—but also we've got to recognise that there are people who are really frustrated as well in our communities. So, where it's appropriate and it's safe and where local authorities agree with what the local community is telling them, then there probably is a need to revisit some specific roads. You'll see that coming through in the next few months; I know Flintshire has started doing some of that, and Wrexham. So, there will be more coming. 

On the other things, people really complain—. In my listening exercise over the summer, they really hated potholes. Cyclists hate potholes. They're really dangerous. The potholes ruin your car. They cost you a fortune to change your tyres all the time. Potholes is an issue and so I'm really pleased that in this budget the finance Secretary has recognised that and has been really clever, I think, in the way that he's managed it. What he's done is to say we're going to give £5 million to local authorities that will leverage in £60 million to try and address some of those issues of potholes and pavements. Because also we've got older people. If the pavements are cracked, that's all dangerous. So, there are things that need to be improved, but that £5 million leveraging £60 million is really significant. So, hopefully, people will see a difference on the ground soon.  

Can I just ask you about the bus Bill coming through hopefully next year? That would be great. Bus transport really impacts on so many people and it's such a social benefit as well, impacting on those that need it. So, just your thoughts on that, please.  

It's been a long time coming but it's really important. We had dregulation of the buses, which meant that we lost control, effectively, of where bus routes should be. So, what you saw is what you'd expect to see—private companies picking off the most profitable routes, leaving some communities with very little in terms of transport. So, this bus Bill will reregulate. I think we've got to manage expectations here, though. It's unlikely to make a difference on the ground until the Bill is in place. So, it's probably going to be post 2026 before people see a big difference; it's really important that people recognise this is not going to happen overnight. But some local authorities are already engaging with bus companies just to start seeing that shift that will inevitably come. Amelia, is there anything that you'd like to add to that?

I suppose only to add the point that it's very recognised in terms of our strategies around older people, disabled people and people on low incomes—they absolutely rely on bus services. 

Jenny on decarbonisation.

I want to back to this 41 per cent increase in energy prices as a result of the Ukraine war. Clearly, the new Warm Homes programme is, I think—. There's a lot of evidence from the Equality and Social Justice Committee that this is definitely a framework for delivering a service, through the dividing up of advice, delivery and monitoring. But it's only £30 million, in the budget we've had for last year, and looking at the allocation for housing and local government, most of the capital funding is quite rightly going in to extra for social housing, and I just wondered how the rest, the £39 million, is going to be used on this, and particularly how we get local authorities identifying their worst first areas. Warm Wales, which is a social enterprise that's a spin-out from the Welsh school of architecture, with Professor Phil Jones and the SOLCER project, and everything like that, they've developed the mapping system to ensure that every local authority should be able to know exactly where their worst first are. We don't have an area-based programme, which means that it's much more inefficient to just do things individually, and nor do we have consistency in local authorities taking advantage of the Flex schemes that are run by the UK Government. Some are all over it; others are completely ignoring it. Given that it's very large sums of money, much more than £30 million, I just wondered what the Welsh Government is doing to encourage all local authorities to engage in this, so that we have fewer people going to hospital because they're not heating their homes.

Thanks. There are a few things here. First of all, energy prices are high. They're likely to remain high unless we do something about it, unless we get more stability, unless we are in a situation where we're not at the control of whatever happens abroad. So, the first thing to do is to make sure we tackle that, which is why the more we can do in terms of producing our own energy—and we've got massive advantages here—we need to make that happen. It's not straightforward, it's not easy to make it happen. We're making sure now that we work with serious players in the industry to work out exactly what do we need to put in place, as a Government, to make sure that we can take advantage of the opportunities that are ahead of us, and in particular in relation to offshore wind.

I think it's really important to keep an eye on the big picture, because otherwise it's all sticking plaster. A sticking plaster is important, because people die if they're cold. It's really important. But, actually, we've got to also address how are we going to fix this for the long term. Renewable energy, getting that done, I think that is absolutely fundamental. And we've also got to have an honest conversation with people about the price of renewable energies. It's going to happen, it will come down in the long term, but if we are in a situation where we have to underground everything in Wales, that is going to push the prices up, and so there will be an impact on fuel prices. So, I think we've got to have an honest conversation with people about, 'We could underground all this, but your energy prices are going to be very, very high'.

So, there's a balance that we've got to address and meet, and have difficult conversations, and recognise, as with this energy company yesterday, the demand for electricity is going to be three times as much as it is today by 2050, and we just don't have the infrastructure for it. It just doesn't exist. So, this is not going to be easy, and people need to recognise things are going to be changed. And if they don't, people will not be able to get around in future. We'll all be in electric vehicles in future. How the hell do we think we're going to power the electric vehicles if we haven't got a grid? The grid cannot take that at the moment, so—

All of these things are true, but I just wanted to take us back to warmer homes—

Sorry. I'll get on to warmer homes.

—because the housing stock is—. 

Sure. On warmer homes, there have been a number of different projects. They have been area-based projects in the past, and some of them run by the UK Government—the SSES programme and stuff. Some of those have gone really well and some of them have not gone so well. But our Warm Homes programme, we spent £30 million on it, and it is important that local authorities help us to identify where those difficult and sensitive areas are. I don't know, Amelia, if you've got anything you can add.

Just in terms of—. It's not my area, but obviously we work closely in terms of tackling poverty, so I'm aware that instead of just relying on people getting means-tested benefits, a household with an income of less than 60 per cent of the median is now going to be classed as lower income for the scheme. And I think really importantly as well, anybody who's getting impairment-related benefits as a disabled person, that won't be counted as part of that calculation. 

All that is very, very welcome, but the point is that half the homes in Wales are in desperate need of improving the fabric, and the individual Warm Homes programme, I agree, is really welcome, but I think it's about how we get the capacity to target the worst first, which is in very specific areas. I mean, in rural areas, obviously it will be most of the stone-built housing, which is obviously very challenging to retrofit, but I'm talking to you about the specifics of Cardiff, I know exactly where it is, and it's all in the private sector, by the way, because the social housing is in a much better state. All the worst homes in the E, F, G EPC are all in the private sector. But, you can see, unless we have an area-based programme as well as the Warm Homes programme, which is about helping individuals who are eligible, how are we actually going to start doing this? Because, obviously, money being spent on warming the birds is money not being spent on our local businesses.

Well, I think there's a role also for energy companies here.

There is.

So, they've got to take some responsibility for identifying who vulnerable customers are and where we go. Look, there is a limit to how much money we have to address this. We spend an absolute fortune on housing in Wales already, and we're very keen to make sure that we keep that ambition to build 20,000 homes. So, those are social homes, and, as you say, they are—

I'm not arguing against that at all.

—good-quality homes, but there is a limit. From my perspective, I think what's important is that we try and do things where we get the greatest bang for our buck. So, insulation is the cheapest and easiest thing to do. So, I always think, until we've got every single home in Wales insulated with the most basic stuff, that's the easy win, and we've got to make sure everybody, at least, is on that page. The other stuff can be really, really expensive—as you say, insulating stone buildings is very, very expensive—and we've just got to work out where is the responsibility of Government to step in.

Llyr's got a supplementary.

I'm going to come to a close, because we're literally coming to the end of the session. I've got two points, therefore, I want to raise with you. One thing on the Warm Homes issue is the Cavity Insulation Guarantee Agency. When previous programmes were in operation, they were guaranteed by CIGA, and many of those guarantees have not been honoured, and there are homes therefore that had work done that are now facing very serious challenges. So, perhaps the Welsh Government can look at how they can support those individuals and address the problems they've got because they went through those schemes. That's something I think the Welsh Government needs to look at.

The second one I want to say, I go back to your days as health Minister—I'm going to talk about health—and I'd like you to do something for me, First Minister: ask your health Cabinet Secretary to find out why we seem to have slowed progress on the metastatic breast cancer agenda. You know Tassia Haines. You met her. She campaigned strongly. But it seems to be that things are slowing down on her campaign—or, not on her campaign, but what she achieved, and the progress you had actually instigated when you were health Minister. And if you could ask your health Secretary to find out what's going on there, particularly to see where—. Because there are many patients with metastatic breast cancer where it's still not red flagged with GPs at this point in time, that we need to get sorted out. So, can I ask your health Minister to do that? I don't want an answer now, but I'm asking it.

Listen, I just want to pay tribute to Tassia as well, and I think we've got to honour her memory, and I'll certainly follow that up for you.

Therefore, can I thank you for your time today? As you will know, you will get a copy of the transcript for yourselves, to ensure that factual inaccuracies can be corrected, if any exist. Other than that, thank you very much for your time, and I thank the officials as well.

Happy Christmas, and thank you for the festive approach to your committee.

Therefore, under item 4, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, I ask Members to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of this meeting. Are Members content to do so? Therefore, we will now move into private session.