Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

I would like to welcome Members to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We have recieved apologies from Hefin David MS. Alun Davies MS will be substituting for Hefin from item 3. The public items of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv. The Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Are there any declarations of interest from Members?

Thank you.

We now move on to agenda item 2. Please can the witnesses introduce themselves, and also outline briefly what, if any, involvement they've had in the development of the Bill?

Okay. Thank you. You don't need to unmute and mute yourselves—somebody will do that for you. Thank you. Members have a series of questions, and I'll begin. Could you outline your initial thoughts on the Bill and the extent to which it will support the work and progress required to achieve the 'Cymraeg 2050' target of a million Welsh speakers? Who would like to start?

Thank you. We'll now move on to questions from Cefin Campbell, please.

Thank you. Thank you. We'll take a question from Lee, please.

Diolch. If I can just test your argument a little about the need for the 1 million target to be in statute, because it strikes me, from the evidence we've had, there are a range of challenges facing our ability to reach that target. They're complex, they're cultural, they're social, they’re psychological, there's provision of skills. I'm not sure that we've had the case that it's the presence in statute that's going to affect any of those things. So, can you just make the case, plainly, of why having the target clearly in statute really matters?

Sure, I understand your aspiration and your hope for that, but I'm just thinking of other parallels. Let's think, for example, of climate change, which is a similarly transformative programme, which has a legal target to achieve a figure by 2050. I'm not really sure that has changed very much what people do at the moment or in the next five years. Is there not a danger the same happens with this target, that it's put in statute and, in a sense, it lets people off the hook, because you think, 'Well, there's a target there for 2050'—or whatever the year is—'therefore we can sit back a little'? I'm just not sure that putting it in statute is going to achieve all the things that you think it's going to achieve.

Okay. Well, sure, I think that's more hope than it is evidence is my concern. Just one brief question, just to get it on the record. I'm sure the answer to this is 'yes', but, currently, it's only the Welsh Language Commissioner who is formally consulted on reviewing the Welsh standards. Do you think that the athrofa should be part of that as well?

Okay, thank you. 

Thank you, Lee. We now have questions from Vaughan Gething, please. 

Bore da, Gadeirydd. Bore da, bawb. I’m going to ask some questions that I have asked of previous witnesses about the use of CEFR—the common European framework of reference. And it’s not just about whether it can be applied effectively, in your view, in the context that the Bill proposes, but I’m sure you’ll have heard that there is varying evidence from different stakeholders about whether they actually think that the use of CEFR is the right approach or not. I know, in the canolfan’s evidence, you say that you think it’s possible to adapt and tailor parts of it, but, of course, I think you make reference to CEFR in the way you undertake some of your work already. Other groups, for example the Rhieni dros Addysg Gymraeg campaign, have said that they’re concerned that it could move schools away from a literacy-based framework. The Association of School and College Leaders had some concerns, but, to be fair, we had other teaching unions who thought that it was helpful, because it’s a European-wide consistent framework. So, I’m trying to understand what your view is, and how adaptable you think the CEFR framework is to the ambitions within the Bill, and whether it will help us or hinder us to get to where we want to.

I think you’ve answered my next—

Vaughan, can I just interrupt you there? Rebecca wanted to come in quickly, if that’s okay.  

Thank you. I think you answered this question, but it's about whether the CEFR model enables you to understand and measure someone's ability, both pre A1 and for those people who can't speak Welsh at all. And there will be some people who can't, for a number of reasons we don't need to go into. But I just wanted to check that that's still your view. We heard quite interesting evidence on this from Qualifications Wales and the WJEC about the new GCSEs they're rolling out—one for current Welsh-medium schools, and we'll go on to descriptors of schools, but also for the English as an additional language GCSE, and about how they are rolling something out now that is consistent with the curriculum, but they will need to look again to make sure that that is consistent with the CEFR model. They thought that that work could be done, but it isn't in the place it is now. So, we have two qualifications being rolled out now that they think will need adaptation. Bearing in mind where both your organisations are, that goes back into whether you've got any concerns about that and how quickly that adaptation can take place. 

The second is the commissioner, who in a former life was the old Dona Lewis, and something she said about whether the CEFR model and the descriptors of where you are don't necessarily reflect your experience or confidence in using Welsh. Because for most of us, when we use Welsh, if we're learners, it's oral. I tend not to write Welsh down. I'm sure I will for Christmas cards and things. It goes back to some of the work you're already doing in the canolfan, for example, on using Welsh in the workplace and using Welsh in conversation, and whether the CEFR model enables that to take place, to be properly described, and actually what that then does for people's—. And it goes back to some of Lee's questions earlier on, which I'll try not to go fully into, because we don't need to talk about the workforce, but about the social and economic reasons about why people do and don't use the language.

That's encouraging. The final question is about whether the Bill does enough to support and develop opportunities for language use. I guess it's distinct, again, from the points that Lee was making earlier about the wider context outside education. From the Bill's point of view, it's about whether it does enough to support and develop opportunities for language use. I'm pleased with what you've said already, because it gives me more confidence about my use of the treiglad meddal and whether I can still use the Welsh that I have got in public. But, like I said, there's a difference between the Bill—. And I guess it goes back to question of getting to 1 million. There's the Bill and whether it has enough opportunities within it, but then there's the other work that we need to do that isn't simply the responsibility of the education sector. 

Thank you. We'll now go back to Cefin Campbell, please.

Sorry, could I bring Lee in here quickly, if that's okay?

Sorry, I was happy to wait, but I was intrigued by what Rebecca Williams said about what more she'd like to see in the Bill about strengthening Welsh as a subject. I wonder if she could elaborate on that, please.

Why?

My anxiety—. I understand the evidence and I understand what Rebecca Williams said, that having an immersive environment where the language can be fully used is preferrable, but for a significant period we're going to be facing the facts on the ground, that most children in Wales are going to be taught in English-medium schools, albeit with a growing proportion taught through the medium of Welsh. That is going to be the mass of the audience that we need to keep with us on this journey for a period. I'm just slightly concerned that perhaps an unintended consequence of constantly focusing on emphasising and protecting the Welsh-medium end could have the unintended effect of making Welsh as a subject, as you call it, a slightly less valued and ignored part, when in fact I think that that is a major audience that we need to engage with and encourage, if we're going to achieve the spirit of these targets.

Thank you. Thank you, Lee. Back to Cefin.

Thank you. We now have some questions on the screen from Gareth Davies, please.

Thank you very much, Chair. Good morning, everybody. The national centre—. Sorry, I should say that I will be focusing on Part 4 of the Bill. The national centre stated that ensuring that there is sufficient education workforce with the skills required is paramount to the success of the Bill. Whilst the college supports the calls for a duty on Welsh Ministers to produce and publish a Welsh in education workforce plan as part of the national framework, does the Bill as it stands adequately recognise the time and investment required to develop the Welsh language skills of the education workforce?

That's led me very nicely on to my next line of questioning, which is: does the Bill in your view make sufficient reference to tertiary education within the context of the national framework, and how would you like to see that being strengthened? 

You’ve called for section 23(3) to be amended so that there is an emphasis on maintaining progression as well as encouraging it. Could you describe what would be the benefit of this for the learner?

Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you.

Can I come in?

Yes.

In this area of getting the workforce to deliver against the ambitions of the Bill, I understand why you want there to be a workforce plan, but this goes back to some of Lee Waters's questions earlier about having the ambition in the Bill. Saying we need to be more ambitious is one thing, but we know we already have workforce challenges now in the Welsh-medium and in the English-medium sectors. So, in the maintained sector, trying to find enough physics teachers is a real challenge, and then in the Welsh-medium sector it's an even bigger challenge. And in the tertiary sector, finding people who want to go and teach a plumbing course, when actually you can earn a really good living in the sector, to get them to come in to be a lecturer, and then to have enough people to do it in both mediums, is part of our challenge. I understand having more ambition and wanting to have a plan, but if the Government says, 'We will provide a plan', there's a range of other people who need to be part of that. So, as well as what the Bill provides, I'd really like to understand—I know you won't be able to go through all of it now—any evidence about how you get there. Because that's the big challenge, I think: getting a workforce of the scale and the size we need to raise achievement in the primarily English-medium sector as well as Welsh medium, in both maintained and tertiary.

That's what I haven't heard much of in the evidence we've had so far—not just have a plan, but how do you do it, and how do you do it in a way where you don't just say to the education sector, 'It’s your job to do this', because that just ignores all of the socioeconomic factors that I think are really a big factor in whether so many languages across the world survive the juggernaut that English is, which isn't actually about the UK anymore; it's about America. It's still about making sure we want to have a thriving language in the future. It's more than that. I know you won't be able to do it now, but I'd be really interested in a follow-up about how you think that could be done and what the Bill would mean, and then what isn't in the Bill but still needs to happen.

That would be lovely. Thank you very much. I have one final question, if I may—really quickly—for Dona. Do you agree that tertiary education should be added to the definition of Welsh language education?

Thank you. Thank you, all. We really appreciate your time this morning in joining us. You'll be sent a transcript for checking in due course. Diolch.

We will now take a short break, until 10:45.

Welcome back. We'll now move on to agenda item 3. Please can the witnesses introduce themselves and also outline briefly what, if any, involvement you've had with the development of the Bill, please?

Bore da, pawb. Good morning. Rhian Edwards, and I am the executive director for policy at Medr. We haven't had any direct involvement in terms of the development of the Bill, albeit we've had some really constructive conversations with officials recently in terms of giving views on the current draft.

Okay. Thank you. Members have a series of questions this morning, so I'll begin, if that's okay. Could you outline your initial thoughts on the Bill and how you believe it will affect the tertiary education and training sector and your own role as a regulatory and funding body for that sector, please?

Okay. We fully support the bold ambitions set out in 'Cymraeg 2050', particularly in terms of reaching that target of a million Welsh speakers. We very much support the ambitions of the Bill as currently in draft format. The comments that we've provided within our written evidence and the comments that I'll be providing today again very much support the ambitions, but we recognise there are opportunities for improvement, particularly in terms of providing clarity for providers in the tertiary education sector that will support their learners and drive towards better outcomes.

The Bill is very much aligned to our ambitions as an organisation. We believe that education as a whole has a significant role in supporting the Government to meet its 2050 target and to ensure that the Welsh language thrives, and that Welsh-speaking communities are fully supported and strengthened.

The tertiary education sector, we believe, has a really critical role in supporting linguistic progression for learners, and particularly that period that bridges that gap between compulsory education and the world of work. The tertiary education sector has a really important role in creating long-term Welsh language speakers. We want a tertiary education sector that really enables and encourages those who already have Welsh language skills to continue to develop those Welsh language skills, and, where relevant, study through the medium of Welsh or bilingually within their post-compulsory education journey, and that our institutions are also generally promoting the use of the Welsh language, regardless of experience, to their learners.

At Medr, with our funding and regulatory powers, we feel we have critical levers to be able to support those objectives. So, in terms of the impact on our role, we are the regulatory and funding body for tertiary education as set out by the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act 2022. You will know that, on the face of the Act, there are 11 strategic duties, one of which is around promoting tertiary education through the medium of Welsh. The other is around promoting research and innovation in Wales that has a focus on promoting research and innovation through the medium of Welsh. 

In February, the Welsh Government issued us with a statement of priorities for tertiary education, research and innovation, and one of the asks specifically of Medr within that statement was to develop a plan to increase and improve the provision and promotion of Welsh-medium education and assessment for the whole of the tertiary education system. We're currently consulting on that plan, which is due for submission to the Welsh Government in December, and one of the strategic aims in that plan we are consulting on is around encouraging greater use of the Welsh language and increasing demand for participation in learning and assessment through the medium of Welsh. 

Specifically under that aim, we have committed to develop a national plan, working with other stakeholders, which will obviously impact across the whole of the tertiary education system. We've specifically drawn out that aim in our strategic plan because we wanted to demonstrate how central it was to our ambitions as an organisation, aligning, obviously, with the ambitions of 'Cymraeg 2050' and the ambitions of the Bill that we're here to talk to you about today. 

We're obviously really pleased as an organisation to be working with the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol as our designated adviser in respect of our strategic duty on promoting the Welsh language, but importantly, we will be engaging with a wide range of stakeholders to be able to support us in doing this role. 

As I said, we're very supportive of the ambitions of the Bill, but we think there are areas for improvement that we would like to talk about today; specifically the clarity of roles of different organisations, particularly where they reflect on the impact on the wider tertiary education system. We feel that there's a missed opportunity to clarify the role of Medr, for example, within the Bill and within the explanatory memorandum. 

We fully recognise, as an organisation, that it is the Welsh Government's role to set the high-level policy ambition and agenda by using legislation, but, unfortunately, we just feel that there's some ambiguity, particularly in respect to how Medr and the tertiary education system will interact with the proposals for a national framework, and, obviously, the role of the national institute and how the institute will work alongside Medr and, for example, the coleg. 

We think there are also some opportunities to think about clearer definitions within the Bill, particularly when we're talking about learning of Welsh and acquiring Welsh language skills, Welsh as a subject, and particularly then learning through the medium of Welsh or bilingually. Ultimately, irrespective of us supporting the ambitions, this is about fundamental reform, and I think there needs to be a recognition of the challenge of how we deliver that within the current financial context as well. We know there needs to be some honest transparent conversations in terms of how we maximise funding available, but that is there to address broader challenges within the education system at the moment, particularly around participation, equity and addressing social disadvantage.  

Thank you. We now have a series of questions from Cefin Campbell, please. 

Thank you. Quite simply, in terms of Welsh for adults, it's not part of Medr's remit currently. We haven't had any conversations that would imply that that becomes part of Medr's remit in the future, so very much we would see that continuing to remain with the National Centre for Learning Welsh. Interestingly, we've started some really constructive conversations with the National Centre for Learning Welsh, because we recognise the potential for duplication, but, more importantly, the opportunity for collaboration and partnership working within this space. To that effect, we have already started conversations about developing a memorandum of understanding that will hopefully provide clarity to our providers within the tertiary education sector in relation to how we will work side by side, but where those real opportunities for partnership working and collaboration sit.

I think the areas that we would really need to concentrate on are where there's a risk of duplication, particularly in the way in which we apply our funding, and making sure that we are not duplicating any opportunities for investment within provision within tertiary education. Really importantly, the purpose behind establishing Medr was around coherence, and actually trying to simplify processes, importantly, for learners, but also for providers. One of the things that we don't want to see are enhanced administrative burdens being placed on delivery institutions because of the existence of now two bodies that exist within that space, supporting that policy agenda.

We need to make sure, for example, if Medr is requesting information from the sector, and the institute is, that it's aligned and collaborative so we're not actually creating a dual impact on providers. And Medr and the institute also need to make sure that they're sharing information—we both want to be as organisations evidence-informed in the way in which we're making decisions, the way in which we're impacting and delivering on policy. And it's really important that we work together. From our perspective, tertiary education through the medium of Welsh is not part of the national centre's programme of activity currently, and we wouldn't see that being part of the institute's role, moving forward. And oversight of Welsh as a subject in tertiary education we feel will also continue to remain with Medr.

I think in the way the Bill is set out, and the clarity that it provides in relation to the role of the institute in respect of tertiary education, that clarity is not there. But we think there are some real opportunities for that to be addressed, particularly within the context of the memorandum of understanding, which will set out the policy intent behind the provisions within the Bill. Currently, the role of the institute is not properly explained in terms of the context of the wider tertiary education system in Wales. We feel there's an insufficient recognition of our role as an organisation in relation to planning within tertiary education, and as a funder of sixth form-based provision within schools—I think that that's really important. And I'll go on to talk a little bit later on in the session, particularly in relation to the framework, around how we feel school sixth forms need to be considered, particularly in the context of a whole-school-system approach.

We feel that, actually, if we could set out the role of the institute alongside the role of Medr within the explanatory memorandum, that would be really helpful in terms of providing clarity to providers in terms of the respective responsibilities of each organisation. We have as an organisation, through our regulatory powers, a duty to set requirements in relation to equality of opportunity, continuous improvement, to establish quality frameworks for the providers that we fund and regulate. And, interestingly, the institute has similar duties to the organisations that it provides funding to. However, the majority of those would be the same tertiary education providers that we regulate, so there is quite a bit that we need to work through, which is why we've obviously started some of those early conversations. Interestingly, we also have some quality powers that potentially capture some of the activities of both the institute and the provision that it provides. And, again, we need to be working really closely with both the institute and Estyn, and other stakeholders within this space, to understand how we will all work collaboratively together.

I think the biggest thing for us is that there is a risk of having some overlap in terms of the remit that creates the potential for additional layers of complexity within the education system. If we move to providing that clarity within the explanatory memorandum, setting out really clearly the respective responsibilities of both organisations, we feel that that would really help. We really welcome, obviously, Medr being identified as a statutory consultee when the institute is developing its strategic plan, but we feel that ensuring the institute takes account of Medr's functions and requirements for tertiary education providers in developing its strategic plan would further address some of the potential issues and the risk of overlap. And, again, we need to be having conversations with not just the centre, who obviously will become the institute, but wider stakeholders in this regard.

The other thing that we do not want to lose sight of is keeping the learner at the heart of the system. We would suggest possibly adding a learner engagement duty for the institute, taking into account the broader learner engagement code that Medr will develop to fulfil its duties within the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act 2022. We do recognise that this potentially provides another overlap, but, in our view, this is really helpful for ensuring coherence and keeping the learner at the heart of the system. But I just want to reinforce, despite us recognising those risks of overlap, we have recognised them and we are starting those conversations to make sure that they can be mitigated. But the opportunity for collaborative working and joint promotion of our respective duties within this space is a really strong place for us to be in.

Could I bring Alun in quickly here, please?

I'm very interested in your evidence on this element of the legislation. You said in your introductory answer that you hadn't had that much engagement with the Welsh Government over the development of the Bill, and in your answer to the second question you've outlined some of the problems that have arisen as a consequence of that. So, I think it would be useful for us as a committee to understand, in a bit more detail, some of the lack of clarity. I'm very uncomfortable, if there's a lack of clarity on the face of the Bill, about trying to find that clarity in the explanatory memorandum. If you have to do that, it's a failure of the primary piece of legislation, in my view. So, I think it would be useful for us as a committee to understand from you, in more detail—perhaps we can do this in writing—where those amendments are required to provide the clarity and the collaboration to enable the legislation to function in the way the Government would wish it to.

Just to add to that, we have been having some really constructive dialogue with officials within the Welsh Government, in advance, obviously, of the submission of our written evidence, and, obviously, in advance of today. Because, for us, the Welsh Government is such a core and key partner for the work that we do as Medr, we wanted to have those constructive conversations. We had a really positive reception from those officials when we flagged, obviously, some of the—. Again, I think there's a negative way of framing this—'concerns'—but from our perspective, it's an opportunity to improve and enhance the provisions within the Bill.

But it's important that those amendments are made at Stage 2, I would suggest, so that this committee can then look hard at those things, and when we give it to the Senedd as a whole, at Stage 3, that there's a Bill that has resolved the issues and the problems that you've identified this morning.

Thank you.

A final question from me in terms of seeking that clarity that Alun was alluding to: do you expect to take responsibility for regulating the institute, when that is established?

No, we don't.

Okay. That's quite clear.

We recognise, ultimately, that the institute will be directly funded by the Welsh Government. We recognise the overlaps in the remit and we recognise the opportunity and requirement, actually, for us to work in joint partnership with the institute, but we wouldn't expect that it would be Medr's role to actually regulate that body.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. We'll now take some questions, please, from Gareth Davies.

Thank you very much, Chair, and good morning. I want to focus on Part 4 of the Bill, if I may: how do you see the tertiary education sector fitting in to the national framework for Welsh language education and learning Welsh? Does the Bill make adequate and appropriate references to the sector in this regard?

Firstly, we very much see the opportunity to bring arrangements for compulsory education and the learning of the Welsh language into one framework as incredibly beneficial, but what the Bill isn't particularly explicit on is how the national framework will fully take account of tertiary education, particularly because there's no clear definition provided in relation to Welsh language learning in that specific part of the Bill.

Our interpretation of the national framework is that it would only directly impact on tertiary education provision for those providers delivering Welsh for adults, as we've discussed, and, again, referencing something I said earlier, touching into school sixth form provision, in the context that it's quite difficult to separate school sixth form provision from a school's general provision.

Again, the lack of definition and the fact that there isn't an explicit recognition of Medr's role in the explanatory memorandum just means that the references to the tertiary education sector could be read to imply that the national framework covers Welsh-medium education and Welsh subjects in tertiary education, not just learning Welsh provision. This particulary has opportunity for creating confusion. That's a concern for us, and, again, our underpinnings of why we've been created is about coherence and simplifying the messaging going to our providers, and the last thing that we want is that lack of understanding of how a national framework applies to those organisations. As I've said earlier, one of the strategic asks of Government through its statement of priorities was that Medr considers the development of a plan to respond to its obligations of promoting tertiary education. The coleg, as our strategic or designated adviser for Welsh language provision, has issued us with its first formal piece of advice, asking us to consider the development of a national plan, and we have considered that within our draft strategy and have made a commitment to deliver and develop that plan. What we need to do is make sure that the opportunity for Medr, in its development of the plan, sits complementary and alongside the national framework. We've got some concerns in terms of some of the incongruence in timescales. So, for example, we've committed within our strategic plan to develop that within the next two years; the plan for the national framework, for example, is not due until July 2028. But, again, we've had some really constructive conversations with officials within Government to think about how we can ensure that we manage that and that the national framework then takes fully due regard of the national plan that Medr would have published in relation to tertiary education.

Thank you. So, am I correct in assuming that you don't believe that there are adequate mechanisms in place at present from your perspective, then, in regard to the Bill?

I think there needs to be—. When we were discussing this in terms of our response, there needs to be further clarification either provided within the explanatory memorandum or making explicit the role that Medr has in relation to planning in respect of tertiary education.

Thank you. Is the Bill's definition and use of the term 'Welsh language education' sufficiently clear in the Bill? For example, is there enough distinction between the teaching of Welsh as a subject and the provision and training through the medium of Welsh, and is it clear enough which of the two, or indeed both, the national framework will apply to in the context of tertiary education and training?

We feel there's quite a bit of ambiguity here that should be addressed, actually, directly within the Bill, as opposed to not just within the explanatory memorandum, and we feel that that ambiguity is largely present through the Bill when making references to types of learning that could fit into that definition of describing the learning of the Welsh language, Welsh as a subject itself, and learning delivered through the medium of Welsh or bilingually. We know that actually increasing the numbers of people learning Welsh language skills, studying Welsh as a subject itself, learning through the medium of Welsh or bilingually, is all critical to the achievement of our collective ambitions as a nation in relation to 'Cymraeg 2050', but we think that, actually, improved and clearer definitions within the Bill that can be more widely understood both by us as supporting organisations, but, importantly, by providers themselves, will really help provide clarity through that Bill. We're quite concerned as an organisation that the language that we're using within our strategic plan also needs to, importantly, align to the language that's used in the Bill, so we're looking for and seeking that clarity as an organisation as well.

Okay. Thank you.

Diolch.

Just a quick extra question from me: previous witnesses have said that the definition of Welsh language education in section 35 of the Bill should be extended to specifically include tertiary education. Do you have any views on this?

It would be helpful. It would 100 per cent be helpful, because I think that that's the clarity that people are looking for, both in terms of the way that we reflect on that within our processes for national planning, but also in terms of the way in which providers are acknowledging those provisions within the way in which they refer to those opportunities within their institutions as well. 

Okay. Thank you. Alun Davies, please.

I'm just trying to follow what you've just said. In terms of where we are today, there's clearly a job of work to be done in the post-16 sector, and I presume that Medr has plans to do that notwithstanding this legislation, yes?

Yes.

So, how would this legislation actually impact upon what you're already planning to do?

I think that's a really interesting question. So, yes, Welsh language provision is critical to us. It is the reason why we have a whole strategic aim within our strategic plan dedicated to the promotion. We know we have a challenging baseline against which we're working with. So, for example, looking at the statistics since the academic year 2016, we've seen relative consistency within the school sector, we've seen steady growth within further education and work-based learning in respect of the percentage of educational activities that are undertaken by learners aged 19 or under through the medium of Welsh or bilingually, but, interestingly, that's very much predicated, or the drive for that progression has been, within the B3 bilingual category, which is around small amounts of Welsh-medium learning. So, we know there is a lot to do within this sector.

One of the things that, as an organisation, we are working on—and we need to remind ourselves that Medr only became operational on 1 August 2024—is we are working with the sector to baseline what that activity looks like, but, importantly, what is working, what is working well, and what Medr has an opportunity to think about in terms of scaling up that kind of activity, both in terms of its own resources, but working collectively then with the coleg in terms of the way in which then it, obviously, works with sector.

The fact that we are putting the target on a statutory basis with the Bill is helpful, because I think that gives it significant profile. But what the Bill really does need to do is just provide that additional clarity in terms of the implications and impact that it has on tertiary education and how Medr itself then will respond to the requirements within the Bill within its own work.

Okay, so the balance at the moment, from what I've interpreted from that response, is that you're looking towards increasing the teaching, if you like, through the medium of Welsh rather than the teaching of Welsh as a stand-alone subject.

I think both of those are applicable. I think there's also an opportunity to think about how we can enhance learners' Welsh language skills within the broader curriculum, not just, necessarily, through the actual provision of the subject that they are taking through the medium of Welsh or bilingually, and there's been some real progression from institutions in respect of thinking about how they promote Welsh language skills within the broader curriculum within which they're delivering.

I'm grateful to you for that. And one of the themes I think that is developing in some of the evidence we've received as a committee is concern about capacity and the ability of education providers, in the wider sense, if you like, to actually deliver on the ambition that the Bill sets out. Do you believe that tertiary education and the training sector, for example, has the resources available to deliver on the ambition that is out in this legislation?

I think that's a particular challenge.

So, yes or no? Do you think it exists or not?

The capacity to be able to deliver upon? No.

It doesn't exist. So how do we get from where we are today, where the capacity doesn't exist, to where we might be, say over the next decade, where that capacity might exist? And where would you like to prioritise the development of that capacity? 

It has to be within the workforce. We know that to deliver the policy ambition here, and to enable, obviously, the ambitions of the Bill, we know that the compulsory education workforce, the tertiary education workforce—we know it needs to be upskilled. There's going to be an increase in the number of individuals that we need to get through the system to be trained to teach through the medium of Welsh. The tertiary education sector is going to be critical in that, not only in terms of educating its own workforce, but thinking about how the tertiary education system is creating those future Welsh language educators of the future, going through, obviously, tertiary education. That is significant, and that needs to be appropriately resourced to be able to ensure that it can respond to these ambitions.

And I assume, from your answer, that the pathway, if you like, of resource, in its widest sense, doesn't exist at the moment. That pathway doesn't exist, which is why we don't have either the teachers or the resources to deliver the education that we want to deliver, either of Welsh or through Welsh. So, we would need to invest in that pathway now if we're to achieve that ambition in a decade or so.

I think it's about the opportunity of scaling up that pathway and ensuring that investment is there—

So, the pathway exists, it's just not sufficient?

Yes, we will need to scale up to make sure—

Okay, can you quantify that?

No, not here, but I can certainly provide that in writing for you following this session.

That's great. We'll leave it at that. Thank you.

Thank you, Alun. We have a question from Lee, I think, yes?

Thanks. I just want to follow up on that. I'm touching on a question that Vaughan Gething asked earlier about the relative recruitment pressures the sector has across the board. You've said that you support the aspirations behind the Bill, as we’d expect you to. But, in terms of the relative priorities that the sector has, facing all the different pressures it has, and bearing in mind it’s meant to be responsive to industry through the regional skills partnerships, do you think that the prioritisation of recruiting teachers with Welsh language teaching skills is high up on the list of priorities the sector has, and how will they balance the other pressures?

I think that’s a particular problem. We have some really significant systemic challenges facing tertiary education currently, participation probably being the biggest one, ensuring, obviously, equity of participation across Wales, making sure—. From our perspective, our key objective for tertiary education is ensuring that learners can learn and take the opportunity to learn whenever and wherever they are placed within Wales. That is a significant challenge currently. We know, obviously, that we still have a stubbornly high level of NEETS—those who are not in education, employment or training. That, again, is a big opportunity for us to be engaging with those individuals in tertiary education.

A big part of what we’re trying to do as well—linking back to your question around pathways—is ensuring that coherence of pathways, to ensure that people do have the opportunity to progress right from level 1, level 2 training right the way through to degree level and above. That’s an important consideration for us and our providers. And one of the things we’re focusing on is ensuring that we’re using our levers to promote collaboration between institutions to support that coherence. So, those pressures on the tertiary education system are balancing against priorities around enhancing a workforce to support Welsh language provision. It’s an incredibly difficult time.

Lee.

Thank you, that's all I have. 

Okay. Do you want to ask your question now?

Yes, sure. Following on from that, then, one of the questions we’re exploring is the value of having a million Welsh speakers as a statutory target. What is the sector’s view of that, and what benefits will it bring, if any?

From our perspective, the targets that are set out in 'Cymraeg 2050', they're well set out, they’re well understood, and we feel that we're, collectively as a sector, trying to work towards those targets as we stand, albeit recognising some of the challenges that I’ve flagged this morning.

I think, as we collectively take steps to deliver the ambition of that strategy, what we’re concerned about is that the intended policy outcomes that this Bill is driving towards are not purely measured through the lens of a target. There needs to be a more nuanced approach in terms of balancing progress against that target and ongoing support to, for example, institutions who are taking all reasonable steps, for example, to meet their targets but might not be meeting them for various reasons.

The other thing, from our perspective as an organisation with regulatory and funding powers who will also be setting targets for institutions, is that it is Medr’s role to be setting those targets for those institutions. And, again, we have to be really clear, in terms of the role of the institute and how it might go about setting targets for institutions that are actually within our remit as an organisation. That, again, is why we want that clarified on the face of the Bill in terms of our respective responsibilities.  

So, can I try and interpret that? Are you saying that you don’t feel there’s particular value in having the target on the face of the Bill?  

We value putting the target on the face of the Bill. We think it gives it that profile that it needs. Also I think it provides an opportunity for a different type of conversation about the required investment to be able to reach that target.  

Okay, thank you. 

Thank you, Lee. Next, we have questions from Vaughan Gething, please. 

Good morning, bore da, Rhian. I’m going to carry on asking questions about CEFR, and whether you think it can be applied effectively in the context that the Bill proposes, especially within the tertiary education and training sector.  

Okay. The first thing that we will want to say on this is that we are not an expert in this type of common framework. So, what we would present today, as part of the evidence, is very much a principles-based response, as opposed to being a technical expert within this area.

We see that establishing the concept of different types of Welsh language user will be a significant development, particularly within tertiary education providers, as they build common reference levels into their own programmes of study and their own recruitment policies, for example. And we will continue to work with tertiary education providers and other partners to explore the most effective way for common reference levels to be used across tertiary education in Wales.

Okay, so is it fair to say, then, that you don't particularly have a view on whether the CEFR framework can adequately cover people with no Welsh-medium ability? But I'm interested in how the sector would look at, coming to some of the points that Alun Davies was mentioning, and others, how you then get people with an ability to use Welsh—you were talking about the growth of bilingual provision—and to understand is that then about making sure people can use some Welsh and deliver the practical skills they then use, and about whether you're agnostic about how CEFR measures that, but actually are wanting to be part of a journey that sees more people with Welsh-medium skills who also then have technical skills or vocational skills as well.

Yes. I think there's definitely opportunity to provide that clarity and for our institutions to be embracing that approach to that common framework, so we do recognise how it supports progression in that regard.

Okay. That's fine. Thank you.

Thank you. We now have some questions from Tom Giffard, please.

Diolch yn fawr. You say the Bill should reflect that school sixth forms come under the tertiary education sector, your remit, and therefore schools will need to account for that when they prepare their Welsh language education delivery plans, and, obviously, when they meet with other duties under the Bill. Could you explain that a little bit further, given Part 3 of the Bill, which deals with duties on schools, doesn't apply to pupils over compulsory school age and therefore only applies up to year 11?

Yes. This is actually quite a complex area. From our perspective, school sixth forms are critical in the delivery of Welsh-medium education and ensuring that the language thrives, but we believe that schools need to be looked at as a whole, and it's really difficult to separate schools' sixth form provision from an overall school's function, irrespective of, obviously, school sixth forms being within our regulatory and funding remit. So, it is a complex area, but we need to try to simplify this for our colleagues within the school system, and also ensure that, again, we are providing coherence for those learners who continue to study their post-16 provision within a school setting.

It's our view, really, that, to ensure the learner gets the best outcome, there does need to be that coherent pathway right the way from early years through to tertiary education, and it's the responsibility of all of us, I guess, in terms of oversight of different parts of that sector, to ensure that the demands that are placed on providers do not prevent that coherence. What we want to put in the explanatory memorandum, for example, is recognising, again, the role of Medr in having regulatory oversight of school sixth forms. And that's really important, so, again, we're providing clarity for how the schools, then, are engaging both with the Bill and the respective organisations that are supporting them. What we recommend is, within the explanatory memorandum, that when, for example, a school with a sixth form is preparing a Welsh language delivery plan they must take account of Medr's regulatory requirements particularly set out, for example, within the learner engagement code.

We recognise that we have a role to play here, and we are really committed to making sure that we work with all of the relevant stakeholders to make sure that schools really understand the requirements that are being placed upon them, both in terms of the Bill and obviously the regulatory requirements that we are working with in relation to school sixth forms.

Would that solve the problem, because, obviously, you mentioned it's very complicated and, obviously, adding this bit to the explanatory memorandum—does that solve the issue?

It will go some way in terms of starting to facilitate the constructive conversations that we will need with that sector, and obviously with the institute, for example, as we move forward. I think it would help in terms of setting out the policy intentions, yes.

Okay. Do you have any other comments about Part 3 of the Bill, which makes provision in respect of Welsh language education in schools?

This morning, no.

Sorry, I couldn't hear that, but I'm assuming that was a 'no'.

Yes, sorry Tom. Yes. No, we don't this morning, no.

Okay.

Thank you, Tom. Are there any other questions? No. Well, thank you so much for joining us this morning. We really appreciate your time. You will be sent a transcript for checking in due course. Thank you very much again. Diolch. Thank you. We will now take a short break for five minutes.

Welcome back. We'll move on now to agenda item 4. Please can the witnesses introduce themselves and also outline briefly what, if any, involvement they've had in the development of the Bill? If we start via Zoom, please, and go to Lisa first. 

Hi. Good morning, everybody. Lisa Mytton, strategic director for the National Training Federation Wales. We did send in a written response on behalf of independent training providers regarding the Bill and in relation to apprenticeships. Thank you.

Hi. Amanda Wilkinson. I'm the director at Universities Wales. We have had no engagement with the Bill thus far. 

Okay. Thank you. Jonathan. 

Hi, everybody. I'm Jonathan Morgan, principal and CEO at Coleg y Cymoedd and representing CollegesWales. And, similar to Lisa, CollegesWales has submitted evidence, but I've not necessarily been part of the production of the Bill. 

Okay. Thank you. Members have a series of questions and I'd like to start, please. So, could you outline your initial thoughts on the Bill and how you believe it will affect the tertiary education and training sector and your own organisation's role? And if we start with Jonathan, please. 

ColegauCymru is very supportive of the Bill. The Bill in its current draft goes a long way to enabling the Welsh Government to achieve its ambition of a million Welsh speakers. We do believe that there are some improvements that can be made. These are around clarity around the role of the different organisations, for instance, post-16 or further education colleges, Medr, the institute and the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol; secondly, really, around the resource requirement and financial implications that are required to be able to deliver on the Bill, especially around workforce development; and then also some clearer definitions to reflect the distinctions between the learning of the Welsh language, Welsh as a subject and then learning through the medium of Welsh or bilingualism. And we think those would give good clarity and then direction for all stakeholders. 

In terms of my role as principal of Coleg y Cymoedd, we support the bold ambition of 'Cymraeg 2050' to reach a million Welsh speakers. We've got around 5,000 full-time learners each year, and we believe we can play a significant role in supporting the Government to meet this target and to ensure that the Welsh language thrives and that Welsh-speaking communities are supported and strengthened. 

Thank you. Thank you. Lisa or Amanda, either of you? Lisa. 

Yes, I don't mind jumping in. Yes, thank you. So, similarly, we fully recognise at NTFW the importance of achieving the target and the broader role of the Welsh language and how that plays in shaping the cultural and the professional identity of the nation—so, fully on board with that. The Bill's provision itself that relates to the statutory basis for Welsh language education and the classification as well of Welsh language users will have a direct impact on our work, and so we are committed to aligning apprenticeship programmes with the Welsh Government's goals. But we also believe that, within the Bill—and I guess it's what we're going to discuss this morning—there will be further consideration needed to ensure that there's a successful integration of the requirements with the apprenticeship system. But, yes, fully onboard and fully supportive. 

Thank you. Amanda, anything to add?

A lot of it's—. I'm not going to repeat what has been said already. Clearly, we are also supportive of the objective. We have quite mature structures, I think, in terms of working with the coleg Cymraeg, and we're going to have to be much clearer, I think, about how the national framework is going to interact with Medr, particularly in terms of how it works with Medr's own strategy in this area. We're going to need to make sure that those things work well. And I think, for us in universities, we have some additional issues around initial teacher education and adult learning, both of which we deliver in Wales. 

Okay. Thank you. Thank you. We now have a question from Lee, please. 

It's just to test your support for the principle of putting the target on the face of the Bill, and what the sector's view of the implications of that might be.

Jonathan, would you like to start?

I think by setting the target of a million Welsh speakers, the Bill sets out the ambition for the promotion and facilitation of the use of the Welsh language. To deliver the Welsh Government aspirations, I think we need to recognise the significant change that’s then also required across Government, public bodies, education and, in a way, society in general. And with such an ambitious target, we believe we’ll fall short of the target if we just rely on collaboration and leadership because, I guess, collectively, we need to recognise the distance that we need to travel and therefore then the resources that are required to be able to close that gap.

We think the reforms can be delivered by a sufficiently well resourced and upskilled workforce, accessible programmes and the support for non-Welsh-speaking families, all of which require, again then further investment. And I guess the final bit, really, is just around, in preparing the Bill, is to recognise, I suppose, the key financial challenges that we face, really, at the moment then as well.

Can I just come back on that? So, I think you're, essentially, saying that, if the resources are there and if the skills are provided, the target will be useful and is achievable and if it's just left to fight for resource with every other priority, then it's unlikely to be. In case—

Sorry. I think that's a fair assessment, Lee. I mean, I think—

Can I just finish my point?

Yes, sorry.

So, if that is the case, hypothetically, what do you think the effect of having a target in the statute book will be? What sorts of unintended consequences might it drive? 

I think there could be some unintended consequences if you just purely stick by a number and a target. And there are probably some nuances around target setting that would need to be implemented as well. It's often very difficult, I think, if we’re talking about skills and abilities, to be able to label somebody in a particular category. It’s very difficult, if you’re picking numeracy, for instance, to be able to say, ‘Well, this person is at this level’, because, within any level, there are different, then, I suppose, abilities. But I do think, I suppose, that, by having a target, it gives everybody a clear direction and it sets the ambition.

Does anybody else want to jump in? Lisa.

Yes, can I just add to that? I think it’s important to have a target, isn’t it? There’s something that we all need to strive to achieve, but I think, for the apprenticeship network, what we do need to see is that the Bill should explicitly address how that Welsh language and learning section will be integrated into apprenticeship programmes. So, I think it’s a little bit woolly, and I did put that in our response from NTFW. I think it just needs to have more clarity around it. And my question then is: does that come from Medr and in collaboration with Medr, because, of course, they’re the ones that are the strategic drivers of post-16 and tertiary now and they will be setting targets as well, so, it’s important that that dialogue is there and is available for everybody.

Just also coming back to the point that Jon just made as well, resources are really important, and I’m sure we’ll come on to that, but, yes, finances, resources in staffing et cetera will all need to be specific considerations as well. But I think, again, that target must be there, but we need to explicitly address how each of the areas would achieve that within their programmes.

Can I just ask you to elaborate a little on what in particular you think is woolly?

Sorry, Lee—? Oh, what is woolly, did you say?

Yes.

Yes, so, for instance, if I'm being brutally honest, within what I read from the Bill, there were a lot of drivers around pre-16, and so there should be, within the schools infrastructure et cetera. And then when you come to post-16 models and tertiary—and, of course, we're stepping through this process with Medr at the moment and just responding to their strategic consultation as well—I think, for me, it doesn't really define how that can be integrated. For example, apprenticeship programmes in Wales, there are a lot of employers in the apprenticeship frameworks that really do match the Welsh language need, and it's really important that we provide for that Welsh language need, but, in some, it's lesser and few and far between. So, I think, when we're talking about targets, they need to be specific and not just across the board—I think they need to be clearer, and that's what I meant about Medr having their targets driven by that as well. So, the two have to align together. Otherwise, you'll be driving forward towards one target for Medr, and then one from the Bill as well.

Amanda, did you want to come in here?

Yes, so I think we can't run two duplicate lots of monitoring and bureaucracy, because there's simply no scope for that, so I think there will have to be a meaningful conversation with Medr around some of that.

I think how we measure the population we’re talking about will also matter to us. I think about universities, of course. We’ve got lots of people leaving for higher education and lots of people coming in for higher education, so there’s probably some thought that would need to be given around what we’re measuring, if you like.

Okay. Thank you.

Did you have any thoughts on potential unintended consequences of the target on a steady-state resource and skills base?

I suppose, I think, that we would think that the target is important, but I think there are lots of resource issues that we might want to talk about later, not least where we might be, for example, on what’s feeding the system through any initial teacher education and how much resource we have to find each year as universities to supplement the contracts that we’re accepting, and where we are in terms of reaching target numbers that we’re going to need though the medium of Welsh in that area in particular, and whether we can resource it. So, that’s quite a big question. There are inevitably resource issues that will go across a range of areas for us—potentially, also, research and innovation—that aren’t currently funded and supported.

Despite those misgivings, you still support a statutory target.

I think a statutory target feels sensible, yes.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you, Lee. We’ll now move on to questions from Gareth Davies, please.

Thank you very much, Chair, and good morning, everybody. How do you see the tertiary education sector fitting into the national framework for Welsh language education and learning Welsh? Does the Bill make adequate and appropriate references to the sector in this regard?

Thank you. Jonathan, would you like to start?

I think ColegauCymru welcomes the approach spanning all the life stages from nursery to adulthood, ensuring that the Welsh language education is accessible at every age, promoting and expanding Welsh-medium education provision at all levels, and will help to increase fluency and usage amongst learners to make sure that the language grows. I think the inclusion of Welsh language education in the workplaces and communities is also welcome in supporting a more inclusive Welsh-speaking society. Again, that said, it's then back, I suppose, to the workforce here, and how we can attract and train enough Welsh-proficient practitioners, particularly in areas with a low concentration of Welsh speakers, which is a concern.

Thank you. Lisa or Amanda, have you got any views?

Yes, if I could jump in. I think again, to support what's just been said, inevitably, within the apprenticeship network as well, it's often a collaboration between training providers and employers, so just thinking about, again, how we achieve what's within this and how we take this framework forward, you have got the consideration of many SMEs, and a majority of those is what Wales's business is made up of, really. They may not have the capacity to support Welsh language education on top of their existing commitments, so I think there needs—going back to Lee's question about being woolly—to be some guidance, incentives for employers to support Welsh language development as well within their apprenticeship programmes. So, we talk about growing the number of people who are speaking Welsh, the number of bilingual speakers, culture, understanding et cetera, but with the apprenticeship framework, this has to come down to working with employers as well, not just the educational institutions.

So, the adequate mechanisms aren't in place, then, currently, I'm assuming, in your view.

No, I don't think they are. I think apprenticeship providers, I have to say, have fantastic support from Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol with regard to supporting Welsh language development, but when you think about support for employers—and maybe this goes into another portfolio in collaboration with this portfolio—it is a consideration that's needed, because of the strain on some of those employers. So, it's additionality that's needed, and I guess that support needs to be there, and I don't think that's wholly there. In some sectors it is, because in some sectors Welsh language goals are really important—health and social care, for example. But it's not across the board.

Can we bring Amanda in here, please?

I think we're going to need more clarity than is currently in the drafting regarding the scope of the framework. I do think that will need to be made clearer. Our view is that Medr has to be the key body for tertiary education in this space. Lots of people have mentioned the coleg Cymraeg, of course; that is the established vehicle that supports us all as providers in that space. But I think, really, we're just going to need a bit more clarity within the framework as currently drafted.

I appreciate that. Just finally, to what extent do you believe that the tertiary education and training sector currently supports the development and use of Welsh language skills and how these might change under the Bill?

Jonathan.

I think from our point of view, we work very well—. We've mentioned Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol; we've developed some really good partnerships with them, with the Welsh Government and local authorities through the WESPs. But there clearly needs also then to be greater partnership work, really, with schools in general, and especially, then, Welsh-medium schools in terms of transition work where we do have learners who are maybe moving from Welsh-medium schools into further education colleges, and that transfer of data to be able to understand, probably, their starting point is really key.

From a Coleg y Cymoedd point of view, we've got nearly 700 learners who actually come from Welsh-medium schools, yet we don't actually get any information or data based, if you like, on their Welsh language skills to be able to integrate them and to be able to work with them as a starting point when they enter college.

Vaughan, did you want to come in here?

Just building from the last question is this point around wanting to expand the number of people who are confident in using Welsh and how the training and education environment helps them to do that. I'm bearing in mind Lisa's point that, in some areas, it's an essential skill. So, there are parts of Wales where, if you don't speak Welsh, you can't deal with the clients, the people you have. Think of a success story: so, Ruben Duggan, who I met in a coming home service in Cardiff and Vale College, but I know he's a Coleg y Cymoedd alumni—

He is one of mine.

So, I want to get that out there. He's a plumber, he's won a silver in the world skills championship, highly skilled. We want more people to say, 'Actually, there's a really good job I can have in that sector.' We don't get enough people through, but I know there's a challenge in the sector in both participation, which Medr were talking about earlier, but also having the appropriately skilled teachers to deliver the learning in post-16, and then, actually, on your point around how you've got 700 students who have got Welsh language ability as speakers of various different abilities, and how you get those into courses where they'll be successful, and how you see the challenge of, practically, the use of Welsh in the workplace, the use of Welsh in the training network, and then the skills of the learners to do that. Because I know that if you wanted to recruit a Welsh-speaking tutor to do plumbing, you'd struggle. And so the Bill will set out a number of aspirations, but the practical workforce planning side of it to deliver through the medium of Welsh, and then people who get a course in the medium of English but have Welsh-speaking ability, how those things are matched and seen as active positives to have in the world of work. The Bill doesn't set out all of that. I think this is something that goes beyond that, but is practical to get to the million.

Yes. I think I was lucky enough in 2019, I went to the Basque Country with I think it was the Taith project, and officials from Welsh Government had been as well, maybe before me. They've achieved it, but, again, when you then talk about the way—. So, for instance, I think I was lucky enough to meet a plumber and an electrician when I was in the Basque Country. They'd been recruited as plumbers to be tutors. They didn't speak the language, they were immersed in training for I think it was up to nine months. They were required to be able to speak the language and then, if you like, they would set foot into the classroom to teach the skills. So, there are, I suppose, ways and means of being able to achieve the obstacles that we've got, but it comes back to coming up with a clear and coherent workforce plan that's going to allow us to have more bilingual and Welsh-speaking staff within colleges.

And that's got to be resourced, hasn't it?

Absolutely.

And if we were just talking about money, all of you would have something to say about delivering your current functions, and so it's about the time frame over which to have not just a plan, but the resource to be able to deliver it in practical terms. And that's not in the Bill; I wouldn't expect that to be in the Bill. But it's about how we get to that point, and what level of engagement you'd all expect to have, and actually having a plan that is real, and then politicians here need to develop the budgets to be able to deliver that. Is that fair? I know there's a lot of putting words in mouths, but I did want to be clear about what that actually means—to get to the million and deliver the workforce needs.

What it means on the ground for us—. And I suppose, from us a college, we changed all our recruitment processes in 2019 to try and be much more inclusive, to try and encourage more Welsh-speaking staff to come and work in the further education sector, and that's across the board. That's not just lecturers, that's within our people and culture team, it's within our finance team, because we want to build upon a workforce with Welsh language skills. It just takes time. We've had some funding from Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, and we think we've been really successful in spending that money, working with them on, I suppose, an action plan, to deliver more Welsh language provision within the college, but I could then also go back to our recurrent funding, for which, as a college, we get £30,000, if you like, on the line, which is to develop Welsh. So, with 5,000 students and £30,000, what you can deliver then is—

And we have big challenges in participation full stop in post-16 education.

Our participation levels, if we're talking about, I suppose, enrolments for this year, are really strong. Since the—

Is that in Coleg y Cymoedd, or across the sector?

The feedback is across the sector.

That's good news.

And I suppose this can be explained partly, I would argue, with the GCSE results. Where there was a dip in enrolment in further education colleges, it was when the A to C grade for GCSE in English and Maths moved from what traditionally was 50 per cent to 70 per cent, which meant—. And I understand from the pandemic point of view that mitigations were needed, but by having more people, if you like, passing A to C, more stayed in school—perfectly as their choice—but as the GCSE boundaries have moved back onto an A to C of 50 per cent, we've got the growth back that we, I suppose, lost during that period. And that's the message that's coming across the sector. 

Thank you.

Can I give Lisa and Amanda a chance to comment, and bring Alun in then, please? Lisa.

Sorry, I couldn't find how to do the virtual hand again, so I do apologise.

It's okay. That's fine.

Thank you, Chair, ever so much. I think Vaughan hit it on the head with regard to resources, especially for the post-16 workforce, and I mean that by the physical staffing resources. Colleagues, I don't mean to be so crude, but within the apprenticeship network, we don't have the luxury of £30,000 to invest in the delivery of Welsh language, but we do invest. The independent training providers do invest in it, and every single learner who undertakes an apprenticeship programme with them does actually take on a core unit via their induction, which includes incidental Welsh, understanding the Welsh language, encouraging bilingualism and encouraging incidental use in the workplace. But it needs to go further than that, and that's what I meant about the coleg's support. It has been very much welcomed over the last couple of years as well.

But I think this is where we talk about—. And Vaughan will be sick and tired of me saying this over the years, but parity is so important. We all come under Medr. That parity is so important, as I said, because we're expected to deliver exactly the same as anybody else, and we do deliver, and we do have a lot of frameworks that do go through the medium of Welsh, but crudely, as I said, it does come down to finances, to be able to enhance and do that extra support, and recruit those Welsh speakers as well. Again, we have changed recruitment policy to include taking on board assessors and quality assurers that have the language ability as well so that we can strengthen it. So, there is that encouragement. There's definitely that motivation to do it. But, as I said, we just need the resources financially as well to support it.

Thank you. Amanda. 

So, two or three points, really. I think we're just going to need to get a bit more clarity than we've got in the Bill at the moment about what we mean in relation to Welsh education. Do we mean learning Welsh? Do we mean Welsh-medium education? Do we mean Welsh as an academic subject? Because I don't think that's yet clear within the legislation, exactly what we mean. So, we're going to need a bit more clarity there.

We have an ageing workforce able to deliver through the medium of Welsh, so that will become an increasing problem for us and something that will need to be considered. In relation to our role in delivering initial teacher education, we know where the target is, we know what we're doing. We're a third short. I'm not going to pretend to colleagues here that recruiting to ITE is easy, and universities, based on the work that we did earlier this year, are having to find something around £14 million across the whole sector to subsidise contracts for ITE. So we're not currently paying the full cost of the ITE that we're delivering now. So, yes, there are a range of issues here that would need to be addressed, which is why scope really matters.

Okay, thank you. Alun, did you want to comment?

Yes. I was interested in both the answers to that previous question from Vaughan, but also the context of the answers to an earlier question from Lee on the target of a million. In answering that first question from Lee, everybody was very positive, but it was always qualified, and I think that's quite interesting. Now you've started to describe some of those barriers or potential issues that you would have in achieving that, or your contribution to that target. So, I'm interested to understand: we've had a conversation about resource, and that is important. But I'd be grateful if the three of you could outline what you believe the barriers are to the delivery of that contribution to the target, and how you believe those barriers can be overcome. 

Jonathan, did you want to start?

I think for me, as an institution, we're moving forward, but we're not moving forward as quick as we would like it to be. We'd like to be able to employ more staff who've got the ability to work with more learners and to deliver against the targets, I suppose, that we're working with in terms of Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol at the moment. With 700 learners, we should be able to offer some, and start to be able to offer some, bilingual delivery. I guess some additional funding to be able to allow us to be able to run classes if they're then, for instance, smaller group sizes and things like that. So, the ability to look at funding that's there, and probably additional funding as well, to be able to practically start to deliver more towards hitting the target. It is going to be incremental steps going forward across different, if you like, curriculum areas, because clearly we can't just do everything at once.

I think incrementalism is quite important, actually. It does build up a sense of momentum, but you've outlined funding and funding alone. So, funding is the key issue for you, rather than any other barrier.

Funding's the key issue, and then I think ultimately it also needs to come back then to collaboration and leadership, and, for instance, in my particular catchment area, how I work with the school sixth forms to be able to offer then a coherent programme of study and learning pathways for learners so that we can get the right learners on the right course, and more of them studying through the medium of Welsh. 

Okay, thank you.

Lisa or Amanda.

For me—I won't reiterate the point about funding—I think one key element is, if we go back to the coleg’s support for all post-16, for colleges and apprenticeship providers et cetera, it's having that consistent support and making sure that moves forward, because they've helped us to resource bilingual training materials. They've helped support our Welsh language assessors and our support staff as well. Because it's already been mentioned, we've already talked about the funding, then that's important to just recognise the additional support we get from the coleg, and I think that has to be really there in black and white that that does continue. I think, again, what we need to be mindful of is that, with apprenticeship providers as well, obviously, we have our remit and our inspection framework from Estyn, so we are doing all we can to deliver, as we said, frameworks through the medium of Welsh, incidental Welsh in the workplace and the bilingual offer as well, but we do need this additional support. 

One last element, really, is I'm just doing a piece of research now on some of the professional capacity that we're losing within the apprenticeship network due to funding cuts that we had for 2024-25, and that will have an additional impact as well, not necessarily for the Bill, but just for colleagues to realise that that is happening alongside this. So, it's how we manage that, then, going forward. Thank you, Chair. 

Thank you. Amanda. 

We said we support a statutory target. How we get there and the timescales will need to be, I guess, subject to a range of assessments, not least a proper workforce assessment. So, I said some things about where we are in relation to ITE. I'm assuming that if we're serious about rolling this out then we're going to need more resources into all schools across Wales, not just Welsh-medium schools. That will require continuing professional development. We'll have people leaving the workforce, assuming that we've got the good data that we need on the numbers leaving and the numbers that we need to get through. The amount we're currently spending on CPD in order to get those who will be capable across our school system of supporting learning Welsh, for example, to be able to do that across those schools. So, there's an issue around targets and timescales that I guess the committee will want to be very clear about. It's very, very challenging. 

Thank you.

What does that mean, Amanda—'very, very challenging'? Tell us what it means. 

I think that's very challenging given where we are currently in relation to ITE numbers, for example. So, I'm giving you an example. I'm not saying I can do this for you, because it's outside my scope, but I think what I'm saying is that that's the assessment, as a committee, that you might want to prod a little bit. 

Okay, fine, so—

I'm not going to pretend I've got the expertise to do that for you. 

Okay, I'm grateful to you for that. So, you've identified that conditionality, if you like, in terms of taking this forward, mainly in terms of resource availability and the ability to build over a period of time. I accept all that. So, are there any changes, any amendments that you would seek to the legislation to enable you to feel comfortable in the way that this legislation could be or would be implemented? 

I'm not sure in terms of specifically regarding the legislation. I guess the key point that we're continually going back to is it's easy to set the target, and I suppose what we're probably then trying to be clear about is going, 'We all sign up to the target, but how are we going to do it?' And I guess the key bits that we're coming back to are just clarity around everybody's roles and responsibilities to be able to try and hit that target, and then the realism of, 'This is the size of the target and the size of the ambition, and to be able to do it, we need then the resource to be able to do it.' Now, I'm not as au fait as writing the legislation, but it needs to somewhere state and be recognised that that's what's needed to be able to take this, really, forward.  

The committee's very happy to take written evidence if witnesses wish to give this greater consideration. 

Yes, okay. 

Thank you. Amanda. 

I think I've already mentioned the two areas. We need a much clearer sense in the framework about the role of Medr compared with the role of the institute here for us as a tertiary sector. So, that definitely needs to be looked at, and then, I think the point I just made around the definition of what we mean by Welsh education, which also needs some consideration.

Okay. Thank you. I have an additional question, if I may, please. Previous witnesses have said that the definition of Welsh language education in section 35 of the Bill should be extended to specifically include tertiary education. Do you have any views on this? Anybody? Jon.

I think we would agree that it's really important that it's clear exactly what we mean by tertiary education, so that we're very clear as to exactly what parts we then play within the legislation.

Thank you. Lisa or Amanda? Lisa.

Yes. Hi. Sorry, I'm just unmuting myself. I think that's really important, because, just on the previous point, what the Bill should consider is, as I mentioned earlier, when we're talking about work-based learning and apprenticeships within the body of tertiary, some industry-specific Welsh language benchmarks that ensure that Welsh language goals are meaningful and relevant. So, I think that's really important that we have a broader definition and have post-16 tertiary in this, so it's understanding the different types of educational institutes and what's delivered—that's really important.

Thank you. Amanda, did you have any views on this?

I think we're in danger of duplicating a lot here, given that Medr has a strategic duty in relation to Welsh, and I think, as providers, we're awash with regulators at the moment. I think we need to think really very carefully about what we've already asked Medr to do, what it's in the process of setting up, and what we're doing here. I think that will need some consideration as this Bill progresses, because, from our point of view, we are working with Medr at the moment in this space.

Okay. Thank you. Alun, do you have any further questions?

I don't have any further questions.

Okay. Thank you. We'll move on to questions from Cefin, then, please.

Diolch. I'll ask my second question in Welsh; I'll ask the first one in English. It's specifically for ColegauCymru, but happy to take any comments from other institutions. For this whole Bill to work, we need clear collaboration across many different elements of the sectors: sixth forms, further education and apprenticeships, universities, and so on—it depends on the pathway that the individual wishes to follow, and that collaboration needs to happen in the context of Welsh-medium provision. Following Alun's earlier point that it is incremental, that you need time to move from where you are now to where you need to be, there will be a period where there is a hiatus. So, I'm struggling at the moment, and I know and I think you acknowledge that, in most parts of Wales, FE colleges and sixth forms are in competition, and there is a low level of Welsh-medium provision in most colleges compared with where we would like them to be, right? So, given that scenario, I'm struggling to understand what kind of collaboration, in the short term, we can achieve, when going to FE and wishing to follow a Welsh-medium provision is a disincentive for many young people who, for whatever reason, may not want to stay in schools. So, I don't know whether you can explain how we can achieve—

If you look at it through the lens, perhaps, of a young person, the young person at the age of 16 is going to decide upon what route and what education pathway do they want to follow. If they're going to follow a vocational pathway and they want to be an electrician, then, at the moment, really, given, then, the curriculum qualification, that's not something that's going to be available for them in a school setting, which would be, if you like, a Welsh-medium school setting. So, they only really have an option of coming to college. And, I guess, what colleges need to be able to then do is to be able to upskill the workforce, which could come with greater funding, to be able to offer, then, those pathways through the medium of Welsh. But, I guess, part of that still comes back to collaborating with the sixth forms to get the right learners on the right course, because where we have got learners, for instance, maybe coming into an A-level provision, how can we try to make sure that some of the A-level provision is bilingual? But a lot of this comes back to the choice that the learner decides to make at the age of 16, and it’s around that advice and guidance. We do have far more learners who choose to go down vocational routes than choosing to stay, if you like, on an academic route, following A-level provision. So, the breadth that we need across the curriculum is, really, in really technical and vocational-specific pathways.

So, in the short term—I’m just going back to the short term, and, as to your long-term ambition, you've set that out clearly—in the short term, do you still acknowledge there will be tensions, and there needs to be honesty as well about what FE can provide as a pathway, or a continuation of that Welsh-medium provision?

Yes, I think that there needs to be greater collaboration. I think the key to this, from a curriculum point of view, is to look at pathways whereby we know we’ve got a greater intensity of learners and a greater number of learners who are moving from Welsh-medium schools, for instance, into vocational areas, and where, then, there are key employment opportunities that require the medium of Welsh. So, childcare and health and social care would seem to be two key areas whereby we should be trying to do more through the medium of Welsh.

Okay. I don’t know whether any of the others want to comment on that.

Lisa or Amanda. Yes, Lisa. 

Yes, just very briefly, I think that’s right. Rather than spreading ourselves too thinly, I think this is what the Bill should consider—exactly what we’ve already mentioned. Where there is a greater need within health and public services, and perhaps not a greater need in engineering or electrical, et cetera, put the emphasis and the resource there. We can always grow those other areas, but where the greatest need is with the population at the moment, and with the workforce with regard to the vocational element, then make sure that is a priority. As Amanda mentioned earlier, with things like IT, et cetera, and things like that as well, look at those sectors, and those industries where Welsh is an absolute must.

Amanda, did you want to comment?

I think it would be—. What I would say is we’re not getting the demand we might like for the courses that we provide through the medium of Welsh. So, it’s something that one would need to pull through in terms of examining how all of that is working.

Okay. Thank you. 

Do you want me to go first?

Yes, please.

I suppose the answer there is back to collaboration and that we see all of those as key partners that we would want to work with to ensure, then, that we’ve got clarity across roles, avoiding any duplication—I think, as has already been mentioned, just to make sure that we’re not duplicating things and wasting any valuable resources. But, clearly, I suppose, we want to develop greater working relationships and have clearer goals.

Lisa or Amanda, anything to add?

Yes, just absolutely avoid duplication at all costs, because I think that will dilute what we’re aiming to achieve here. So, again, just ensuring, really, that the work for the institute in the Bill outlines clear mechanisms for how the institute will work with apprenticeship providers and other institutes, as I said, to ensure the Welsh language programmes complement what is already on offer, really, and I think that that work has to be done with the coleg, and absolutely with Medr, because we are looking to Medr to actually put out those strategic objectives and then work with them to address that. So, that has to be a must.

Amanda.

Yes. I've said it already, I think: we've got a regulator—it's Medr—and we need to work with that regulator. In terms of just thinking about what we need in the Bill, Medr and the coleg Cymraeg are going to have to be on the statutory consultee list. I'm starting to wonder whether we should also be on there, given that we've got areas that fall outside Medr's scope, particularly around the delivery by Welsh universities of Welsh for adults, and—I've said it a lot already—ITE.

Okay. Thank you. Cefin.

I'm done. Diolch.

Okay, brilliant. Thank you. Next, we have some questions from Vaughan Gething, please.

Thank you. I'm going to go back to questions about CEFR and whether you think it can be applied effectively in measuring Welsh language ability in the sector. We've had lots of evidence about this already that I'm sure you'll have seen.

I'm probably going to repeat some of what Rhian said earlier. Not necessarily total experts in this area, but ColegauCymru believes that integrating Welsh language proficiency into the common European framework will help with consistency and credibility. Within my own institution, we use a similar process, where we look at the Welsh language skills of all of our staff, and we're just changing all of our processes to align to that now already. So, we would see that as a positive step.

Okay, that's very helpful. Thank you. Rhian, Amanda—. Sorry, Lisa or Amanda. Sorry. Rhian was giving evidence earlier.

Sorry, Amanda—go on, jump in.

No, that's all right. Let's follow the natural order, Lisa; I'll follow you.

Oh, bless you—thanks, Amanda. Yes, I think the adoption of the code for us, Vaughan, would potentially clarify the position of learners in the non-fluent category, which is always extremely varied. So, within the apprenticeship network at the moment, we do define the levels of our learners coming on programme through the LLWR codes, but I think the design of a code and working with this framework really would be welcomed because there is a lot of confusion around there, and it would just help us to be able to structure that, moving forward. It's as simple as that.

Amanda.

I don't think it's problematic.

Okay. I think that broadly deals with the second point, about people with no ability, because I think you've being pretty clear about your overall view. So, I don't think I need to prolong this any further, Chair.

All right. Thank you. The final question, then, is from Tom Giffard, please.

Thank you very much, and a very broad final question from me: do you have any other comments about Part 3 of the Bill, which makes provision in respect of Welsh language education in schools?

Not from me.

No. Lisa or Amanda.

No, not necessarily. I think there's a lot going on with schools at the moment with the new curriculum. There is a lot more joined-up work that's being discussed with Medr and RSPs et cetera, and making sure that those career-related work experiences come through with regard to learner choice as they move into the post-16 world, and I think the Welsh language and what the Bill sets out to do will only enhance that and help us to encourage that more as they come on board on programmes with us.

Okay. Amanda.

Yes, there's a whole piece around pathways and progression, but that's a level of detail, I guess, we're not going to deal with right now. But there are issues around all of that, particularly as people progress into higher education.

I'm sure the committee will be happy for you to write to us and to take that as written evidence, if we haven't got time for it now.

Well, I could give you an example. We've talked about some areas—you could talk about social care and progression and the need for Welsh speaking there. We're not allowed to offer degree apprenticeships in that space because we don't have a Welsh Government framework for it, so we can't do it. So, when it comes to thinking about it, extending work-based learning, particularly in the business management space, and allowing individuals to progress through the medium of Welsh where that is really needed, that provision is not there, and that's the tip of the iceberg in terms of where you'll end up with some pathway issues.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. Are there any further questions from Members? No. Well, thank you for joining us this morning. We really appreciate your time. You will be sent a transcript for checking in due course. Diolch, and thank you again.

Diolch. Thanks, Chair. Bye.

Thank you.

I will now move on to item 5, which is papers to note. Full details of the papers are set out on the agenda and in the paper pack. Are Members content to note the papers together? Yes.

Moving on to item 6, I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix) that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Yes. We will now proceed in private.