Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good morning. I’d like to welcome Members to this meeting of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee. I would like to note apologies, because Lee Waters is attending a Children, Young People, and Education Committee meeting today. Do any Members have any declarations of interest to make? No.

So, we will move straight on to papers to note. You will notice that we have several papers to note, because these are the papers that have come in over the summer recess. Are the Members content for us to note the papers? Is there anything that anyone wants to say on the record about them? Laura.

Yes, if I may. Clearly, there is a wealth of information here. There is a great deal to go through. I would like to thank everyone who has written to us with the additional information, but there are also some concerning issues for us as a committee within all of this content. If I may note the letter, on page 10 of our pack, from the Musicians' Union, also the update that we’ve received from the First Minister at the time, Vaughan Gething, following the scrutiny session that we had, if we look at pack page 28, specifically mentioning the future of the role in terms of the Welsh Government representative on Europe, which is very relevant to our work. So, I'm not going to go through all of these, but I do think that we need to look in detail at the content and have that wider discussion, because of the range of issues that are raised and the problematic issues that are raised, some very concerning issues that are raised, particularly with regard to funding for the Arts Council of Wales and so on. There is a great deal that's going to feed into our scrutiny work.

And to quiet anyone’s mind for people listening to this, we as a committee will be discussing the content of these items very thoroughly, and we will go private, so, as people who are watching might know, today, we’re going to follow things up with public items where we will take evidence on the financial situation that we have in sports and arts at the moment, so we will go public with the first session at 10:40. So, we’ll go private in a second, but we will be back live at 10:40. But thank you, Heledd, for noting all of that. Does anyone else have anything to declare on the record? No. But, once again, for people watching to know, we will be discussing these more thoroughly in the private session. 

So, I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that this committee resolves to exclude the public from items 4, 6, 7 and 11 of this meeting and all of the meeting arranged for 2 October. Are Members content to accept that motion? Right, okay, we will wait to hear that we are in private, but, once again, for anyone listening, we will go live again at 10:40.

Good morning, and welcome back to our viewers. We're moving straight now to item 5 on our agenda. We are holding our first evidence session as part of our inquiry into the impact of funding reductions on culture and sport, and we'll now be hearing from the National Library of Wales. I'll ask our witnesses to introduce themselves for the record. I'll go to Ashok first.

Ashok Ahir, I'm the president of the national library.

Thank you very much. And Rhodri.

I'm Rhodri Llwyd Morgan, the chief executive of the National Library of Wales.

A warm welcome to both of you. Thank you for joining us. We'll go straight to questions, if that's okay. The previous chief executive and librarian had told us in plain terms that the staffing reductions at the library had led to serious concerns about the long-term security and preservation of Wales's documentary heritage. Do you share those concerns, please?

I'll begin by explaining some of the steps and things that have happened following the confirmation of these funding cuts. So, that confirmation came in December, and the library responded immediately by looking into how we could adapt to the cuts in terms of prioritising maintaining our front-line services, the services for the public, but also safeguarding, where possible, the additional workload that one would accept was a natural concern, the workload that would fall on the staff, and also by starting a voluntary redundancy scheme. So, 24 members of staff are leaving us as a result of these cuts through that voluntary route. Eighteen of those staff have left us already and around six of them still remain and will be leaving over the next few weeks, and that amounts to 10 per cent of our workforce. There's no hiding from the fact that that does create concern, of course, in terms of the ability of the institution to continue to do everything in the same way. That isn't possible, and I remember saying that in the staff meetings that we held after a week of being in the job as the chief executive at the start of April. So, we're going through that period, we're still doing that, of adapting and considering how we can do our work, sometimes differently, but also facing the fact that some things might have to slow down and perhaps there will be fewer things happening following these cuts.

We are trying to do several significant things as well, that's the truth, during this period between April and the end of the calendar year, where we are addressing dealing with the adaptations that we need to make following the departures. We are working with the board and with the staff to design a new strategic plan for the library. We have developed a change and renewal programme that will partly attempt to address the needs that have arisen following the reduction in the number of staff, but that is also trying to look forward, to look ahead in a positive way and to look at ways of providing services and working in a different way. Succession planning: that is incredibly important in an institution that has specialist systems and processes and staff, who are also very knowledgeable. So, that change programme is happening. We're also consulting on changes to the pension scheme, because that also is a very important part of the financial picture, the financial situation of the library.

So, those are four projects for you, without mentioning the fun, interesting and very excellent things that we're doing out there in the communities and attracting visitors to the library in Aberystwyth. But those are four projects, four very significant challenges that we're addressing at the moment.

Thank you for that. Did you want to add anything there, Ashok?

No, Rhodri gave a very comprehensive response.

You're happy. Great, we'll go to Heledd.

Thank you. If I may ask, obviously, I'm sure it's very challenging with the succession planning, when you've had to lose 16 staff and relatively quickly too. How are you dealing with that challenge? Is there any risk that you've identified in terms of the collections or in terms of the building? Could I also ask how staff morale is looking, and how do you keep track of that? Do you conduct an annual survey, for example, and how do you act on that? Because, obviously, it's a period of great instability for the institution, so I just want to understand how you can track that, and obviously, there's a clear role for the board too.

Yes. With 24 people leaving us, there are clear gaps in terms of knowledge and expertise that will develop, and we have sought to protect those front-line services whilst also ensuring that staff welfare and workload receive the attention that they deserve. So, I would say that we have reached a situation where six posts out of the 24 are on the corporate side—finance, governance, and so on; three of the posts are on the engagement and education side; and 15 of the posts are on the developing connections side, archives, infrastructure, digital, digitisation, and so on. So, unfortunately, every part of the library's main activities is impacted. We've undertaken a very careful exercise to assess the impact of those redundancies and identified then where we would have to make temporary arrangements. That's worked in several cases, and that's had some element of financial support from the Welsh Government—we've received £341,000 to be able to introduce those temporary mitigation measures. Morale is a very good question; I will come back to morale.

In terms of evaluating, then, the risk, to give you one simple example: conservation. We have a very experienced team, a key team that enables us to do work on the collections that we have—digital and physical—and we have accepted that two out of that team have left with those redundancies. Now, a year ago, we undertook very important, very busy work on the peace petition—the Welsh women's peace petition, it's a very wonderful story that I'm sure you will have heard of—and the conservation team played a vitally important part; every team across the library played a key part. A year ago, we received the chest back from the Smithsonian in the USA, and we undertook cleaning and conservation work on the contents of the chest, then we digitised it, and then the volunteer team started the work of transcribing, and now we're working on creating a website and that's gone live. We're holding engagement events as part of that programme, which will touch every town, every street in Wales, which is fantastic. But now our conservation capacity is significantly smaller. We won't be able to respond to such a large project and such an interesting project as quickly, therefore. We will have to work new projects like that into our work streams in a more careful way if the situation remains as it is currently. 

In terms of other risks, I would draw attention to the fact that the digital work streams are being impacted. So, the capacity is reduced, so the momentum is going to be slightly slower from now on, and where that causes some element of risk is not the level of seriousness of the risk, but how quickly we can respond to the issues that arise. So, as an example then, I'm thinking specifically about the British Library and the cyber attack that they faced almost a year ago. The online presence of the British Library has disappeared almost entirely since then, and in a month or so, a fortnight to a month's time, they hope to reintroduce their online presence gradually. We haven't been subject to such an attack, but our resilience is similar to the profile of the British Library in the sense that there's been a great deal of investment over the years, we have a very wide-ranging, complex online presence that's developed over a period of years, where you have to upgrade systems and move websites, move the collections from older systems to newer systems that are more resilient, and that's the work that is going to be undertaken more slowly in the current situation now.

Thank you. And in terms of—

Morale.

Staff morale. 

I'm sorry. Yes, that's incredibly important, incredibly important. So, within a week of starting in my role, I was holding staff meetings, and we now conduct staff meetings every term, and they are an important part of our internal communication. We work very closely with the partnership council, so representatives from the trade unions. We meet very frequently and we discuss, of course, staff morale. We did a staff survey in May. The results of that are being considered very carefully by the operational team. And we're looking at the very honest opinion of our staff, who are telling us, 'Overall, we're very pleased to work in the national library. We want to stay here, we want to continue to work in the national library. We are a little bit worried about what's going to happen, we're worried about workload.' So, we are monitoring that very carefully. 

Is that something that you intend to undertake annually, therefore, in order to monitor the impact? 

Yes. 

We do an annual staff survey. I think that we're about to do one soon. Is it going out before Christmas again? 

Yes. It'll be going out soon. 

So, of course, last year, we were tracking what the feeling was before we had to make those decisions about cuts. Of course, as a board, we will be looking at the staff responses in the current survey. But, of course, as Rhodri said, as president, I meet with the partnership council after every board meeting, face to face, and that is an opportunity for me to report back to the board about the feelings of not just the membership, but certainly the unions. Also, the summer has been very busy for the library. So, we've had the opportunity to meet staff who have been doing quite a lot of face-to-face work with the public in a lot of events and exhibitions and so on. Of course staff have concerns, but I also feel that there's a feeling amongst many of them about the opportunities we'll have, if we can reach the sort of income that we need and the sort of the support that we need from the Government. 

Thank you. If I may go a little further, clearly, one of the major issues that we've been looking at is the risk to the collections and the risk to the buildings as well. You have a very challenging, older building that requires capital funding. So, what's the impact at the moment? May I also combine another question, because I know there are a whole host of questions to be asked today? What would the impact be, if you were to face a similar cut in the next financial year, in terms of the library, in terms of the building, the collections, the staff, that you faced in this financial year, or even if you received the same budget, a flat budget?

In terms of the security of our collections, exactly a week after I started, storm Kathleen rolled in and the effects of that storm were very obvious. It struck quite a bit of the lead off the roof and that loosened some of the slates. So, we have worked very closely with Government officials to try and highlight the damage that happened then, remembering, of course, that no significant work has been undertaken on the roof in those areas, above book stacks 1 and 2, since that part of the building was built 90 years ago. So, we were pleased to see the announcement in July that £1.9 million was available for us to be able to address fixing the roof. More rain did come in two nights ago, because of the very heavy rain that we had across south Wales and mid Wales too. Staff went in at 3 o'clock in the morning and they did what they could to deal with that. But having said that, the scaffolding company has arrived, the work has gone out to tender to fix the roof, a company has been appointed. We are going to address that project very, very, very rapidly. And that will mean that the roof will safe by next summer. That does give us some security and, I think, a level of confidence that one would want, as a member of the public, and that you would want, that the physical collections and the buildings are safe for generations to come—those are safe. What is also a question is not only the physical estate, but the digital estate. That is something that we need to invest in too, so we will have more discussions and develop the discussion in that regard. I feel very confident that we are listened to and that the officials, and so on, understand what the situation is, so we're going to be able to develop that understanding of the needs.

Could you provide additional information to us a committee just in terms of the digital collection side, particularly in terms of what you were saying about the attacks that have been. Clearly, the Welsh Language Commissioner suffered a cyber attack too, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility here too. And just in terms of the financial side, what would be a settlement that would work for you? What would be the challenges that would arise if it were to remain unchanged or if there were to be a further decline?

Well, staying in the same place, at the same level, would create quite a bit more work as well, to consider what the consequences of that would be. I have already described, in a way, that we can adapt and we can cope with that to a certain extent, but it affects every part of the library in terms of its core activities. We would not be able to maintain the same staffing structure, to speak plainly here, if the funding level was to be frozen, or was to stay where it is next year, and certainly not if there were to be further cuts. If there was an increase, of course, that would be a better situation that we would welcome, and we would be able to build up to support the new strategic plan and to go out and do the additional work in terms of engaging with communities in all parts of Wales that we are so desperate to do.

Thank you. 

Thank you very much. Ashok.

And that's the danger, really. At the moment, we are trying to restructure internally, but also in terms of the programmes that we provide. And many of the programmes aren't part of our core work. We also have to focus on our core tasks to safeguard the collections. But what we don't want is to lose the momentum that we've built up over the past two, three years in terms of the library's outreach from Aberystwyth. The community work and the digital work that we do are vital in that regard, and if there were to be a decline or a cut, then we would need to look at that work. And we've been trying to safeguard that aspect, but I don't think we could continue with it if we were to face a cut at the same level as last year.

Thank you.

That's good to hear—well, not good to hear, but it's important for us to hear. Carolyn wants to ask a question, before we go to Alun.

Well, with the decarbonisation plans, to give you the full picture, the risk is that those could slow down if we face further financial pressures in the way that we have already. But, having said that, we are being very ambitious, and we are very grateful for the Welsh Government support that we have received. Funding has been allocated through the co-operation agreement too, which helps to develop that momentum. So, there are 150 solar panels being erected on the roof of the third storage facility. There are 50—this is happening now, this week—pits being dug out in the small field opposite the car park for the introduction of ground-source heat pumps. That links up with the work that we did on the car park surface, because the cables that will come in from the field adjacent to the site will link up with the heating system. And I'm confident to say that we are hoping to achieve net zero before 2030. Now, that's quite a feat in a listed building, but the estates team are excellent, and the board has also invested a great deal in this.

That has been investment over a period of almost 10 years, and we're lucky that we have a good chief executive who has that proper focus for achieving it before 2030. Sometimes he says 2028—I don't believe that, but that's what he says sometimes. But given the kind of building that we have, you can see what kind of example the library has been to other people, hopefully, because you need to invest in it. But hopefully this will safeguard us a bit from any growth in energy costs in future and definitely over the next decade.

But there are additional costs. We must be careful not to raise expectations too high, because we are in the process of eradicating our gas supplies entirely and moving to using only electricity, and from renewable sources of electricity generation. But electricity costs have gone up 30 per cent, so although our use of electricity has declined in terms of the units that we've been using, the total cost is still higher. So, we are doing everything within our ability. The entire system is working, with the head of estates, for example, where we have generated heat. Heat generation means that we have to put energy into the machines that ventilate the collections, where that's important. So, the system is now far more efficient, and far more efficient than you might expect.

We have very constructive conversations with Amgueddfa Cymru to share the good practice that we've developed, and hopefully we'll be able to support other bodies in the same sector and other sectors as well.

That's great. Thank you very much for that. Thanks for asking that, Carolyn. We will move to Alun.

Thank you. I'm very pleased to hear that. I'd like to go back to that point that Ashok made there about the various programmes that the library runs, reaching out from Penglais into other communities. I have been enjoying the S4C programme, Cyfrinachau’r Llyfrgell, and I was pleased to learn more about Gwenynen Gwent, of course, on the programme the other night. I'm very pleased to see the way that the library has, over the years, reached out to the people of Wales and has tried to ensure that there is a rich contribution to the life of the nation, as a broader description. And one of the things that I would like to ask about is how financial problems—. What sort of impact does a lack of funding, if you like, have on the ability of the library to reach out of Aberystwyth?

Well, the board took a decision, following the tailored review of the library by the Welsh Government, in response to a very revealing sentence in the report, which said that this is the best kept secret in Wales. That was the driver for us to work with S4C to commission the series and to work almost as a co-production on the Cyfrinachau’r Llyfrgell series. It's an excellent programme and it demonstrates the potential, doesn't it, of how stories are relevant to people's interests, to communities and to individuals in all parts of Wales.

It impacts on us in the way that we can develop collections. So, the last time we appeared before the committee, it was perhaps easier for me to describe the engagement work that we do, but, behind that engagement work, the collections have to be developed so that the content is there for you to be able to turn it into a story that is relevant to individuals and communities. And what impacts us as a result of the cuts that we faced is the capacity in the archives team and the digital collections team. For example, we are offered hundreds of collections every year, of course, and we have to be quite selective. There is a policy and there is a framework for that process. This year, we've been offered 200 collections and we've been able to accept only 100 of them. We also have to prioritise very carefully the work and the time that we allocate, particularly if there is external funding that comes with a particular collection—they will jump the queue and go further up the list of priorities. To give you an example, we received the collection of the former Member of Parliament for Cwm Cynon, Ann Clwyd, and there was a financial contribution made by the family and also from other sources, which enabled us to employ a researcher/archivist to catalogue and to describe that collection in detail. That information is now live and available to people—researchers, people who have an interest in all of the interesting stories in terms of the work and career of Ann Clwyd. We had a very successful event at the National Eisteddfod; the First Minister—well, it was actually the day before she became the First Minister—described her experiences and spoke about the archive in that context. And that's the kind of work that we can do, but it happens when we prioritise and when the funding is available. 

We've just accepted a collection of the Chwarae Teg organisation. Now, we don't have the capacity to undertake that same level of detailed work on that. But there you have two examples of very powerful stories about women, social justice, campaigning. We've been able to do the work on one collection, but we are not yet in a position to do that same level of work on the other. 

And Chwarae Teg's contribution is an important one to put on record.  

But also, on the other side, the argument—I don't mind saying on record—that Rhodri and I have is that if we reach out and we're trying to show that the library is the library for everyone in Wales, then we have to work harder to collect things that aren't Ann Clwyd's collection or Chwarae Teg's collection, because those are the sorts of collections that have always come to the library. If we want to go in and build the capacity of the history, the documents, the evidence, the family pictures in communities that haven't been in contact with the library over the last 30, 40, 50 years, then we have to go out sometimes and reach out to them, and then get the capacity back in Aberystwyth to go through them and to catalogue them, and then make them available to everyone. That is very difficult work and it's very expensive. At the moment, we don't have the capacity to do that, but I would like for us to do that and to do more of it, but sometimes it's more difficult than just receiving a pile of documents from a Member of Parliament.   

Yes. This is a conversation that I'd like to have for the rest of the day, but I'm aware of time. We have a financial crisis at the moment. We understand that, and you in several ways have described the impact that that has in terms of how you work and on the collection itself. So, I'd like to understand a little bit more about the way that you have responded; you have described that this morning already, to an extent. But how have you collaborated with different bodies to generate funds, to raise funds and to create resources? How, for example, following the conversation that we've just had, are you working with county archives to ensure that an archive goes to the right place, rather than everything going to Aberystwyth? So, I'd like to understand what kind of creature the library is when it comes to collaborating with other bodies in Wales and beyond. 

I'll start with the sector—public libraries, research libraries, and also county and regional archives. We have a very close relationship, and the Welsh Government funds and invests in work in the national library to support public libraries—introducing one new library system for those public libraries so that users and readers in the public libraries have the support of the national library, and can access information and the catalogue of electronic and other materials without any barriers in a completely consistent system across Wales. That is great. We're going to continue that work. However, the capacity that we have for that particular project has been affected by the particular cuts that have happened. 

In the same way, we're carrying on with the archives. We are working very closely with archives. We've located the broadcast archive's clip corners in several archives locally. I was up in Caernarfon during the summer, opening a clip corner in Caernarfon. That work has paid dividends, because our outreach officer, who works across north Wales, works with the Conwy archives, the archives in Gwynedd, and others, and reaches out to those communities and works in partnership with, for example, charities that support homeless young people, foodbanks and so on, all across north Wales. That is work that's done in partnership that has become, and is becoming, something instinctive; it's second nature to us now as a library in terms of the way that we act.

I've spoken a bit about the heritage sector; we do a lot with Amgueddfa Cymru, the comission and Cadw, as you would expect. Beyond Wales, then, there is enormous scope, I think, for us to develop, especially the volunteering side and the potential for attracting donations too. Some officials were out in the North American Festival of Wales—

Yes, I saw that, with the petition. 

Yes. That petition, of course, is a great stage for speaking with audiences, the diaspora—

May I stop you there, Rhodri? Because I saw, I think, on social media, the work that you've been doing in North America, and I think that's fantastic, it's excellent—and I hope that you will keep in touch with the Welsh Government office in North America when you do that. But there is a huge Welsh diaspora there that would have had interest in that work. Is there a way for you to foster those relationships with those people, using the Welsh Government office, for example, to ensure, perhaps, that grants are received and perhaps funding from the diaspora that we have, speaking specifically about North America in that example?

Yes, certainly. The team came back from NAFOW, from that festival in North America, with 200 individuals who'd registered their interest to keep in contact, to perhaps become volunteers that would be able to contribute to real projects, for example, transcribing parts of the peace petition and transcribing other things for us too, but then developing that relationship to then become supporters, donors, sponsors, because we know that that's the charitable and philanthropic culture in America—we understand that. We are learning and we're going to develop those connections. There's a project that I can talk about—maybe I'll keep the powder a bit drier, if you want to come in on that, Ashok.

This is something that we've been considering for some years now, and I think there is a huge gap in the market in terms of the diaspora. But we have to be sure that our resources are there back in Aberystwyth or wherever else, in terms of access to the archive, not just in terms of the census but also a whole host of other archives. We need to ensure that those resources are available. Because the thing about the family history market in North America is that there are some nations, such as Scotland and Ireland, who are far further along the path in that regard. We've had conversations with Ireland recently; Rhodri had a conversation with the National Library of Ireland recently, about the work they've been doing to engage with the diaspora and use the archive to provide people with access to find out more about their own personal history. But at the moment, we don't have the capacity to do that. It's also a challenge in terms of the digital aspect, to ensure that our collection is searchable so that people can find those stories.

You don't have the capacity, but—

I think—

—sorry—but you're the most important source of historical information in the country, to a certain extent, and so you do have the ability to contribute something. You mention the diaspora there in this case, but there is a richer contribution that would be possible to make, and I would think that there's a little bit of demand for that. So, we're not just talking about capacity but we're talking about investment, and I would expect that the Government would be able to support you to do that.

Thank you for that. I think Heledd wants to come in on that.   

Just in terms of the income generation side, you spoke quite a bit about capacity there, but how much of a challenge is it to grow the income because of these cuts? What are the limitations that have come because of that? Also, you mentioned what you can’t do in terms of that engagement work. Obviously, there are a lot of external grants now that are dependent on engagement work, and evidence of doing that work. You mentioned losing three members of staff, I think, from the education and engagement department, which is a very small team anyway. So, how can you get the balance at the moment in terms of raising income and the challenges that you’re facing? As Alun said, how open or prepared is the Government to understand the effects of these cuts on you being able to generate income too?

Several projects have been undertaken, thanks to an investment over two years, to create and strengthen the engagement, education and fundraising team. The risk, from my point of view, is the loss of momentum, rather than that work disappearing entirely, because the momentum has built to such a degree that we’ve had the busiest summer in the library since 2011, and we’ve reached visitor levels 25 per cent higher than we had in the same period as compared to 2019. And the success of that is based not just in terms of a blockbuster such as the Canaletto arriving as the centrepiece of an exhibition that was based primarily on our collection, but it also emanates from engagement outside Aberystwyth in communities. It also emanates from the fact that we have more welcoming facilities for families, a room for children between three and seven years of age. All of that works together with projects that attract groups that have been underrepresented in our work in the past, but we’ve made that effort to go that extra mile to reach them.

So, it’s a loss of momentum that’s the risk, rather than seeing a disappearing of that emphasis. And that would be a great shame, wouldn’t it, because the contribution that that work does in terms of the well-being of those groups that engage with us, be they schools from Blaenau Gwent, or from any other part of Wales—. They feel that the work is relevant to them, that it’s relevant to the curriculum, that it’s relevant in terms of ambition and employability of those pupils. And that’s been a very powerful message for us too. I was discussing this with the chief executive of S4C yesterday, on how—

Specifically, if I may, in terms of the income—. You’re talking about losing momentum. Is there a risk at the moment that you won’t be able to generate the income and that potential so that you’re not so dependent on grants from the Government?

If I could have a succinct answer, because we need to move on. 

Very quickly, it’s important that we raise funds, of course. At the moment, that’s an investment. It takes five years, up to 10 years, for that investment to pay dividends. So, of course, if we have a cut, then that will impact every department.

Thank you for that—

There are many grant applications that have gone in through the small team that we have since that was set up 18 months or a year ago. So, that does show output, but maybe we’re not sure what the results of that are yet. Also, what we have seen is success in attracting visitors to Aberystwyth. It is paying dividends from the point of view of income into the café and the shop, and, therefore, there are results from that. It doesn’t contribute very significantly to the bottom line. The donation work, I think, over a period of years, is what will make a very significant contribution.

Thank you for that. Laura has—. Oh, I'm sorry, Ashok, because of time, do you mind if we move on?

No, I don't mind. 

Laura has a question. 

That funding is something that we welcome. It's going to go in two directions, and we received £725,000 in total. Half a million is going towards supporting the debt in the pension scheme. That means, in decreasing that debt level, that the staffing structure is better in terms of our ability to afford to sustain and maintain the staffing structure for the future, during that time at least. And also £225,000 that will go into IT infrastructure projects and digitising our estate in terms of the ability to have safe storage and to make ourselves more resilient.

Happy? Okay. We will move to Carolyn.

Thank you very much. The work and how we can create links between the different collections—. The broadcast archive is a lovely example, because we have a century of film and video and sound material, and all kinds of recordings that have come to us from ITV, BBC, S4C and so on, and how those enrich projects on the ground in communities. I described previously how the children of Sketty Primary School were able to use an archive of stories from 1969 about protests against apartheid, when the South Africa rugby team were visiting here, and how other parts of the archive—Paul Peter Piech's art, as well as the threatening letters that Peter Hain received from people in the area—had enlivened the story for the children at that particular school, to be able to then create a digital resource that is now available for every school. So, building levels of a story is something that we can do in a great way, I think, in the library. There is a project about to happen—we've had planning permission granted now—for the atrium. So, this is the infill where there is a space within the building where we can build a new storage area, and that is going to give us increased storage capacity for, hopefully, 10 years into the future. Thank you.

There are two things in response. I know that the engagement between the Welsh Government, and the board—. That's also an important part. So, Welsh Government officials are present in our board meetings, and have been every time that I have attended those meetings. I feel that there is a very good level of engagement with the officials and with the Ministers and with the Members of the Welsh Parliament. We receive many visits. We provide everyone with the same experience. We bring Dr Maredudd ap Huw out of the background, and he shares the secrets of the library, and several other members of the team are very happy to receive visitors as well—they look very happy, perhaps they're fed up of us constantly calling on them and disrupting their work, especially the conservation team. Everyone comes into the conservation area and they show the visitors the parchment repair work, the reconstruction of the manuscripts, how they treat the ink that erodes the text and ruins the collection—how they bathe the ink, and how they clean the manuscripts and safeguard them, these very vulnerable, fragile manuscripts. It's like some sort of witchcraft; it's incredible what they do. On leaving, everyone is amazed at the wonderful skills that we have in the library. So, that level of engagement, I think, is excellent.

What we are hoping to see for the future is to continue with that level of engagement, but perhaps the change that we would like to see is the Government being a little more flexible with us in terms of the use of the support grant. At the moment, we can't carry over more than 2 per cent of the total support grant that we receive from the Welsh Government. And as funding is received in year, sometimes, when opportunities arise, that makes it slightly more difficult then, because you have to spend it all before the end of the financial year. If there were to be flexibility to carry that over, that would be of support.

Another point in terms of engaging with the Government: of course, we now have a new Cabinet, and we're happy to see our sector sitting with skills, for example. As Rhodri just mentioned, there are a lot of skills where we're starting to get a bit worried, but we're also seeing it as an opportunity, perhaps, to develop new skills in young people, which is really important to Wales. We want to retain those kinds of skills. So, there are options to start thinking about the short term in terms of how we can attract young people to develop skills that go along with the sector, because we've been losing people who have been there for 30 years, or a quarter of a century. But again, this isn't something that we've considered before, but I think we need to consider that now. But again, a relationship between someone looking after skills and our sector is important. So, we will invite the new Minister for culture and skills to visit us soon.

Excellent. 

Well, the Government has been in touch recently, asking us the question and asking the other arm's-length bodies the same question, in terms of what links and relationships we have outside our family, if you will, outside of our sector, and what links we have with other Government departments outside of the culture sponsorship department. And the idea is that Government officials are prepared to help us to forge those links where they are needed. I welcome that opportunity, because we are now part of the same portfolio as skills, which is a crucial question for us as a body and as a sector, and also the ability to co-ordinate with elements of the creative industries and also IT digital policy, the scope to develop artificial intelligence—the risks, the dangers of that, but also the opportunities that that provides and how we can be—. Because we are data experts, information experts, after all. We're digital experts. So, I think that we can bring a great deal to the table in that regard, when the Welsh Government wants to make progress in terms of innovation.

And also social justice has been with us, for a short period of time, as part of the Cabinet Secretary's portfolio. Perhaps that's changed a little now, but again that's a key part of the work that we're doing to try to promote diversity. We've spoken quite a bit about external engagement and going out to communities, and bringing communities to us, and we don't want to lose that momentum—we want to promote diversity.

Another thing of course is education. Of course we have resources that fit perfectly with the Curriculum for Wales and with the qualifications that are now changing relating to 14 to 16, for example. We want to be part of that with resources for schools, but sometimes it can be difficult for small teams to lead the way within large beasts like the Government, so, we need them, as Rhodri said, to sell us to other departments. And I think that will help us greatly, not just with income, but with our influence and our impact in terms of the work that we're doing.

Thank you for that. Maybe we'll have to run over time just by a few minutes, maybe to quarter to. Would that be okay with you, if that were to happen? Thank you for that. We'll move to Laura.

Well, we have responded to the consultation, welcoming broadly all of the statements that are in the priorities for culture. I feel as if there is one area where we were keen as an institution to re-examine that part and maybe expand it a little bit in terms of ambition, and that was the digital aspect. We felt that that was perhaps something that could be stronger in the priorities for culture statement. But, overall, we do welcome and are very supportive as an institution of the principles in terms of making culture a more democratic thing, democratising culture for all of the people of Wales and all of the communities in Wales too: the accessibility of culture to everyone, the well-being that comes from cultural experiences, the attention that was paid as well to our responsibilities to protect and to develop access to the collections, and the skills that are needed in the sector. So, overall, in general, we're very supportive of the statement.

We have been important partners with the arts council and Amgueddfa Cymru from the outset. Our role is twofold, therefore: we have been digitising artworks—a total of around 7,000, I believe, of artworks to be available for access on the new art gallery website. As well as providing capacity, we've had funding to be able to employ somebody to be responsible for facilitating loans, and so supporting the model has distributed that, with that specific capacity that facilitates loans from the library’s collections being a vital part of the project in terms of the library’s contribution.

The resources to support the project come from Welsh Government.

We don’t contribute. We’re part of the project, but we don’t contribute anything to the project apart from staff time.

Sorry, could I just—

I believe that Heledd wanted to come in first on this.

Asking the same question, probably.

Okay.

How much is the Welsh Government contributing?

Well, the value of the salary of the official who facilitates the loans, and then some tens of thousands of pounds for the digitalisation costs.

May I ask, therefore, further to that—? You talk about staff time; you will obviously have calculated the amount of staff time that you're giving to that. That must also be an investment from you.

Yes. We do have one small one that takes care of exhibitions, so part of their time goes to supporting the arrangements for the loans that will happen soon, and part of the capacity that we have for the digitalisation of any media and managing that work, so part of that is a contribution in kind.

But also if you think about—. Since the idea was mooted for the gallery, of course, our focus with a great deal of our art has been on contemporary art, so, for example, we had a contemporary art exhibition in the past year. So, as part of the work, we’ve shifted a little more to those contemporary art aspects, so our staff also help us to be in a position to make that wider contribution to be part of the gallery's family, for example.

Could I ask, therefore: how much of a concern is it for you, in terms of financial sustainability, in terms of continuing with this project? Because obviously, there was a pot of money; you’ve acknowledged the role that that plays. The loans element in order to be able to share those collections more broadly is an important element of this. But again, from what we understand, the money hasn’t been guaranteed beyond the length of the project. So, is it something sustainable for you to be able to continue without additional funding, or is it something that you and partners would be keen to see money continue to be invested in, in order to realise the long-term objectives?

Well, that is the topic of intense discussion at the moment, to see what elements are there that can be continued without any additional funding for the continuation of the project, and what level of potential funding would be able to provide different levels of continuation for the project. In terms of our contribution, we are eager to continue to support the project that widens access to collections for the people of Wales. So, if we can work within a level of resource that provides that opportunity for continuity, then we’ll do our best to adapt.

But it is important to strike that balance between the digital element and other elements. Of course, there are discussions being had about buildings, but from our perspective, because we’re not where the gallery will be located, our point of view, certainly, is our contribution is the physical exhibitions, but also in terms of the digital side, and that’s where our focus is at the moment. If anything changes in terms of the model, that’s where we’d like to see more income coming in for the library, side by side with the element that can support us to put on exhibitions every six months that are contemporary works.

Thank you for that. Laura has a question, and then Alun.

Yes. Okay, Alun.

Following on from that question, there are two costs, aren't there? There are those soft costs that you invest in the project, and you're going to employ those staff anyway, so it isn't a hard cost, in a sense, it's a softer contribution from you. And following on from Laura's point, it sounds to me—I appreciate and acknowledge the contribution that the library wants to make, I don't question that, but—it sounds to me as though the support that you've received from the Welsh Government has been somewhat scant, if I may say so.

Well, the project has been a new one for me. In terms of the library, I think that joint working to expand access to collections—

Yes, yes. But it's the contribution of the Welsh Government—that's what I'm talking about.

Remember that the money in terms of the co-ordination doesn't go to us; it goes to another body.

Yes, yes. I'm talking about the Welsh Government's contribution to you, and it sounds to me, from the earlier response, that the library has basically employed a member of staff.

It's very small.

It is.

Well, that's not a lot, is it? It's not a lot of contribution.

It's a contribution that means that that we can play a part in the project, and in terms of that distributed model—

But if you set up—

—if that's being pursued, if we can sustain that capacity to contribute to the project—

That's one member of staff.

—that's going to be important for 10 other galleries, we feel that we can play our part in that regard.

Would you be keen for the Government's investment to continue in order for this work to continue, or are you confident that you would be able to continue to contribute in the way that you are within the resources that you have?

Well, now we've reached another area. Now we've reached the expectations if any contribution, however small, wasn't there. We don't want to stop putting contemporary art in front of the public.

Yes, I understand.

But we'd need to look at how much work we can do towards this aim if there were to be more cuts, but if nothing comes in—. And remember we're working in partnership. This isn't our project. So, also, it depends on where other partners want to drive forward the project, if the project changes direction, of course.

So, maybe that's a question for the partnership as to what the task for Welsh Government is.

We will carry on to try and work in partnership with the two other bodies for this project—

No-one questions—[Inaudible.]

No, but what we're trying to understand is what the financial situation is and what investment you would need in order to be able to continue with that. We're trying to help the situation of the library—

Well, this isn't something we've done as a costing exercise, but perhaps—. Well, as you've asked the question, we will undertake it, for us and for you.

That would be great.

Could I ask one other question? In 2022, the library was considering a proposal for a national photography gallery and a national art gallery. Obviously, that is another expensive thing, but could I ask what is the status of that plan is? Where is that in your plans at the moment?

It isn't very high up on our list of priorities at the moment. The basic safety and security of the building has come to the top of that list of priorities since then. The decarbonisation projects are also a long-term commitment for us. But there are other pieces of work to be done in terms of how we can develop the use of the facilities within the building that we currently have, without looking outwards and constructing any additional buildings. But, perhaps, in due course, there will be plans in place, and I hope that the strategic plan will help to give us that direction in that regard in terms of what's important not only in terms of how the library wants to develop as an institution, but the contribution that we make in terms of skills and expertise in a number of areas, mentioning specifically digital and conservation, I think. So, it's that kind of direction that I foresee as being one path for us.

I think certainly the board's perspective is that we would like to see our collections out with the public, not just there, you click on it, you put a name in and you see the pictures. No, it's important as well that there's information around those pictures, that there is a narrative around them. This is all, of course, something that costs in people's time and it costs in resources. I would like it, if there was a change in direction, for this to be part of any investment that would come to us, because it helps us with our aim of opening up the collections and digitising more of our collections—certainly the artwork that we have.

Excellent.

Thank you very much.

Well, thank you very much for being so flexible with your time too. A transcript of what has been said will be sent to you to check that it is an accurate record of the proceedings. And perhaps there are a few additional questions that we'll want to send you in writing that we haven't been able to cover. You've also said that you will send us additional information too. So, may I thank you, once again, for your evidence this morning? We really appreciate it. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Members, we will now continue in private, and we'll wait to hear that we are in private before we proceed.

Good afternoon. Welcome back to our viewers. We're moving on to item 8.

Before we move ahead, I do have a procedural item. In accordance with Standing Order 17.42, I propose that the committee resolves to exclude the public from item 1 of the meeting on 9 October 2024. Are Members content to do that? Right, okay, they are. 

I would like to welcome Dafydd Rhys to our committee this afternoon. Once again, we're looking at the impact of funding reductions on culture and sport. This is an evidence session with the Arts Council of Wales. I'll ask Dafydd Rhys to introduce himself for the record. 

Good afternoon. I'm Dafydd Rhys. I'm the chief executive officer of the Arts Council of Wales.  

Thank you very much. Are you happy for us to go straight into questions? 

Yes, I am. 

We have heard for several years now, because of the effects of COVID first of all, and, then, because of the effects of financial pressures, that many arts venues either had closed or were facing a risk of closure, so what assessment have you made about how many of them are facing that risk within, maybe, the next year? 

Well, that's a very good question and a very timely question too. There are a number of centres and venues facing significant financial challenges at the moment. Some of them, of course, are known to the public. It's a combination, I would say, of a lack of adequate funding, perhaps, from us as an arts council, but, more than that, it's a far larger problem, in the sense that local authorities, which are responsible for a number of these venues, are facing significant financial challenges themselves. And also, the further development at the moment is our universities. Our universities are also facing challenges; some of them are having to find £15 million in-year savings, and some more than that even. And those that have their own art centres as part of their campuses, that places pressures on those particular venues too. One thing I would say that also has become clear to me, certainly in discussions with local authorities, is a number of them on a personal level say that they don't want to have to face the decisions to close art centres and venues, but, because it isn't a statutory responsibility, it's an easy place in some ways or a swift way to try to balance the books, truth be told.  

Thank you for that. And we know that some other countries, like Ireland—. In those countries it has become a statutory responsibility. Do you think that there's space for Wales to look at something similar in order to be able to guarantee the security—or the future—of these organisations?

That topic has come up in several of the public sessions I've held in the last six months. In terms of the future generations Act, culture is one of the four cornerstones of that Act, but there are no statutory responsibilities in that. So, I would encourage this committee to consider that. Certainly, we as the arts council would like to see that happen.

Thank you for that. That's very clear. We'll move to Heledd Fychan.

Thank you. We want to get into the situation in terms of the funding. Obviously, you had that announcement over the summer in terms of a little bit of additional funding, and I've seen that you are advertising now in terms of how that will go ahead. Perhaps it would be beneficial to hear what impact that is having, and also given that it comes in the middle of the year, rather than at the start. Also, just in terms of the impact if the arts council were to see either the same amount of income this year, or in the next financial year, or if there was a decrease, what do you think the impact of that would be?

That's a big question there—

Yes. [Laughter.]

—and I'll try to answer it in several different ways. In terms of us as a body, as the Arts Council of Wales, we received a cut of 10.5 per cent, as is well known to everyone. That was on 19 December of last year. We had to go into a period of voluntary and compulsory redundancies, in co-operation with the unions. We had to also reprofile our budget.

One of the things that we wanted to do, and we were very eager to safeguard, were the conditional proposals provided to the sector in the multi-year agreements. So, as policy, we decided not to transfer that 10.5 per cent cut to the sector in its entirety, but we did have to transfer 2.5 per cent of a cut. So, we as a body lost around 10, 13, perhaps, members of staff. We had to go into a process of restructuring. Also, everything had to happen very quickly. And one of the reasons it had to happen quickly was that the Government, who was providing financial support to enable all of this to happen, insisted that it had to happen before the end of the financial year. But, in the middle of that process, some flexibility was allowed in that regard, and it did mean that we, and other bodies in the same situation, could extend some deadlines, and so on.

In terms of the investment review, only 13 bodies received what they had asked for in their original bids. Around 63 received standstill funding—the same—so, because of the increased costs, it was a cut, to all intents and purposes, in real terms. But then, with this 2.5 per cent cut being transferred, that also had an impact on them.

So, if there were to be a greater cut for the arts council, another thing to remind the committee of is that 92 per cent of our funding is all transferred to the sector in some way or another. So, we are a very small body; we are a body that releases and shares the income that we receive across Wales. If we were to face an additional cut—and this is something that we have been considering and looking at internally—it would mean that we would have reconsider how much we can deliver, how much we can deliver and achieve in terms of the remit letter provided by the Government. And we would be asking for honest and open discussions with the Government on that, if it were to happen.

Our major task is to develop the arts in Wales, and that's something that we take very seriously, but one can only do so much. Because, in the remit letter, there are all kinds of responsibilities outlined, and some, in discussions with Ministers, are more prominent than others, but that's something that we would have to consider as a body. And what's interesting for me is that, although there are fewer staff members, trying to get the staff to do less isn't something that comes naturally to them, or it's not instinctive, because the staff are so dedicated to the arts. But even at the moment we're trying to say, 'Well, that isn't a priority; we have to focus on other areas.' So, in terms of a cut, the cut for us as a body would mean perhaps that we would have fewer posts again and, therefore, less flexibility to deliver everything that we currently deliver.

And for the sector, I think it would vary. I think reference was made earlier to venues. I think it would create huge problems for those venues, and I think that we would be in a situation where some venues would have to consider whether it's possible for them to exist or not.

You went back to this question of in-year or mid-year grants. We received £1 million earlier in the year—I think it was in the last financial year now—where we transferred, I think, £900,000 to the sector under the jobs protection element. I think around 38 jobs were safeguarded as part of that process. The only thing I would say, although we welcome very much any help for the sector, one of the problems with grants of that kind provided during the year, to use an English idiom, they're seen as a sticking plaster. They don't answer the long-term demand to solve some of the problems that a lack of funding causes.

What it does do, which is positive, is it buys you more time—it buys more time for bodies and for venues, for example, to work on how they can adapt their business models to cope with not just less funding from us or less from local authorities, but because audience habits have changed too, in the sense that we are seeing that there is an increase in live events, there is an increase in theatre or live music, but very often, traditionally, what enabled more experimental work to happen was the cinema. Well, cinema audiences—and this was true pre pandemic and post pandemic—haven’t grown back, and cinema was seen as a cheap thing to put on, something that brought in a good level of income and which enabled assistance across other activities. So, I think that's a factor, that audience habits are changing.

Thank you. Maybe it would be beneficial to differentiate from the funding of you as a council and also the money that you allocate. If we look specifically at you as the arts council now, you mentioned your role in terms of developing the arts in Wales. Ten to 13 members of staff—that is a significant reduction of an already small team. What are your concerns in terms of the effects of that? It's a question I asked the library as well, as regards the effect on staff morale. How are you measuring that? And also, in terms of the support that you can provide to the sector across Wales, how much has that been limited because of the cuts that you've had to make in terms of the small team you already had? How much of a team are you now? We heard that it was a 10 per cent reduction for the library. How much of a reduction has it been for you?

Something similar. We did have something like 91 or 92 members of staff. Some of those are based in Cardiff, some are in north Wales, some are in west Wales. We have offices in Colwyn Bay and Carmarthen, and we've lost around 13, so we're down to around 80, or something like that. One of the things that we've had to do, of course, is that some of our work, certainly in the health area, is funded by lottery funding, and there are time restrictions on the Government funding that supports that. So a number of those people have fixed-term contracts—they're not full-time members of staff. But we have around 80 people, I would say.

So, it's a significant decrease. 

We've had to look at the way that we communicate with the sector. We've had to look at the way that we work with the sector. We have, in the past two months, succeeded now in redistributing the work of the lead officers, as we call them, which relates to the multi-year companies. So, that has been done. It's an interim process, in the sense that we'll do it for the next six months to assess how that will work. We are honest with the sector in the sense that we can't give the same service that we've given in the past in terms of offering advice or being available 24 hours a day to advise. We are doing our best to meet the needs.

We have had to cut as well things like Collectorplan, which is the loan system. It was old fashioned, in that it was still run on paper. It isn't coming to an end; it's coming to an end in its current form, but we're going to combine it with Own Art. It will allow the public not to notice any difference, in a way, but that's a British scheme rather than our own scheme. That will save work for staff. We've had to cut down on things like Wales in Venice, for example. That was one thing that we had to not prioritise. Therefore, between trying to cut down in terms of some of the expectations that our staff and the sector have, and also trying to diversify, we are, I think, at the moment managing to cope. 

It's also fair to say that we have succeeded in bringing in some additional posts at a lower level. That was part of the restructuring as we looked at the needs of the business. So, we are bringing in an accessibility officer. One thing that we have noticed is that there's great demand from the sector for support and advice when it comes to accessibility and disability, so we are bringing in an accessibility officer; that will be advertised in the next few weeks. We're also bringing in administrative support, mainly on the business side because that is something that's crucial for us. We have to ensure that the public money spend goes to the right place and for the right reasons, so we have to protect that. So, there is strengthening in some aspects, but there is also—what shall I say—a change as well in some areas. 

If I may, you say that you are coping, but is that sustainable? 

That's the point, isn't it? There is significant change coming to us as a council. We have changed the senior management team. There are two new officers starting in the autumn—Catryn Ramasut as arts director, and Lorna Virgo as business director. As part of looking ahead to the next year, we'll be looking at the whole way in which we manage our grants, and so on. 

In terms of staff morale, how do you measure that? Do you conduct an annual staff survey? 

There is a staff survey that's just about to go out, on 4 October, I think. So, there is a staff survey. It's an important part of our risk register—staff morale and staff being able to cope with their work. We have also suggested, in discussion with the union, looking to see if we can offer some sort of well-being time for staff. We have a staff well-being group that will be discussing that. Staff are concerned about workload—I think that's the main thing people are concerned about—and about the sector, in the sense that when someone receives frequent calls or e-mails that refer to problems, then that can have an effect on morale and on mental health, and that's something that we're very aware of. 

There are weekly staff meetings that we've been holding. It was certainly important during the restructuring process, but now we have a new head of comms, Gwen Siôn, who has started work. So, we're working with staff and looking for ways in which we can change our internal communications, because it's so important to make sure that we have the opportunity to measure how staff are feeling, and also for us to be able to explain and to provide information to staff on a regular basis about what's happening.  

Thank you. 

Thank you for that. I have questions now from Laura and then Carolyn. We'll go to Laura first. 

Carolyn, you had some additional questions.

Thank you. If I could take us just a step back to some of the things that you’ve already spoken about. You mentioned earlier the reductions that have happened to programmes in terms of the health aspect, and where funding could come from. This is a discussion that’s been going on since the future generations Act, but, again, it doesn’t seem like we’re much further forward. Do you think that’s something that you’d like to see—we have a new Minister now, for example—being prioritised, or are you concerned that these cuts mean that some of those excellent things that are done in this sector, in terms of health, mental health, education and so on, might get lost because of the cuts that we have been seeing?

I think one of the great risks arising from the cuts is that some of the things that are seen as being marginal, but are so important to the activities—. If one, for example, is running a venue or a centre, doing work in the community, but, in terms of funding, in terms of the health of the business of the venue, it’s about getting people in to see shows, well, there’s a risk that that community work will be seen as something that is unaffordable. And that’s where I have concerns that there will be an impact on the nature of what is being provided. And some of those projects will be the first to be lost, perhaps. I think it’s worth us having this conversation in terms of the the future generations Act, because if we are serious about supporting culture and the arts, we need to fund it, and find a level of funding that is fair, in my view.

Are you concerned, in terms of participation, that there’s a risk that that might become less inclusive? Because Wales has been a model for a number of other countries over recent years in terms of participation and reaching out to communities. Are you concerned that there's a risk that culture will become more elitist once again, and that it will be for the minority who can afford it, rather than for those where we have tried to ensure that culture is for everyone, like Raymond Williams?

Well, there is a risk. It's natural that there's a risk it will become elitist, in the sense that there will additional pressure on raising ticket prices, to make things affordable, to put things on. We know, from talking with various venues, that people are more choosy now in terms of how much they spend and how they spend. What is also happening is that people want to know exactly what they're going to get for their money, and they want complete certainty that what they're going to get is going to be value for money. What that means, then, is that venues become more safe in terms of the nature of their work, and perhaps there will be fewer opportunities for new writers, fewer opportunities for new work, whether that's classical music or whether it's poetry or whatever it may be, because it's important to get those people through the door and to have large audiences. What does is happen is the margins—what's pressed at the margins—and I am concerned that that participatory work, and the good work that we've done in the past few years, could feel the pinch. We will do our best to make sure that that doesn't happen, in terms of our spending as the arts council, but that will be difficult. Every element of our spending, I think, will feel the pinch.

Clearly, back in May of this year, you were very open on Beti a'i Phobl. For example, you asked for a national conversation. You emphasised the seriousness of the situation that we're facing. Has anyone listened to that plea? Are you seeing that the Government is realising how serious the situation is, and the seriousness of your warnings in terms of what is being lost, and what the risks are in terms of the other things that will be lost if we don't give priority to culture?

I think that the Government has agreed with what I was saying in terms of the funding that there's been since 2010, for example. There have been cuts since 2010. We were getting £35 million from the Government at that point and we're down to £30 million now, which is about 40 per cent in real terms. So, there is acceptance that that is a correct assessment. I think they checked the figures and they have accepted that.

In terms of the effect of that, that is something—. Time will tell, I think. I'm meeting the Minister this afternoon. I will make my case and will have a constructive discussion with the new Minister this afternoon on that, but time will tell. We did have a discussion session in the National Eisteddfod. We have also commissioned an economic impact report , which will be on the effects of our spending economically in Wales—that's difficult to pronounce; I'm sorry—and we will launch that as part of our national conversation towards the middle or the end of the autumn.

Thank you.

Right. Thank you. We'll move back to Laura.

We'll move to Carolyn.

Thank you. I wanted to understand in terms of the remit that you've received from Welsh Government. Obviously, that's very broad and it hasn't reduced, even though your funding has reduced. So, how much dialogue is there with the Welsh Government in terms of what's realistic for you to be able to provide, and what are some of the things that you can't do now because of the pressure on you to support and develop the arts, because I'm sure you that you won't be able to do more with less resource?

No, that's perfectly true. We're certainly not going to be able to do more and there is an argument that some would say that we should be doing less, but funding what we do better. And that is a very difficult question for us to deal with, but it is a question indeed.

Formally with the Welsh Government, there are two meetings with the Minister and me and the chair, every year. There are four quarterly meetings where we look at what we say we're saying: this is what we say we're going to do, this is where we've reached—the QMMs, as it were. I do think—and there are some other bodies in the same boat and asking the same question—that it's entirely dependent on what the settlement will be for next year. But if there isn't an increase, I think that we will then have to ask at a high level to have that conversation about what the meaning of the remit letter is now, and what are the requirements and expectations and the additional work in that letter.

Thank you.

If I may come in on that: not to mention individuals here, but do you believe that we need to be upgrading the role of culture in the Government? Because it changes from a Minister to a Cabinet Secretary, and so on. Does it concern you to see it changing? Is there a difference when someone's a full Minister or a Cabinet Secretary leading the porfolio, in terms of the status that that provides? 

It is crucial, I think. It’s an important signal. The status is important, but also full Ministers are listened to more, I think; I haven’t been there, I don’t have any personal experience of that, but my understanding is that full Ministers carry more weight in the Cabinet. When I did refer publicly to the cuts for the first time, I was told that some politicians, certainly, were thankful that I’d done that, that it was difficult sometimes getting that voice out there at the appropriate level in Government. So, I would welcome having a full Minister, certainly.

I’m going to move to the national contemporary art gallery for Wales. I know that Laura and Heledd want to come in on that. I’ll ask for one question from Laura, and one from Heledd, so that we have time in the five minutes left to answer them. Laura wants to go first.

Clearly, there was an announcement in terms of not having a contemporary art gallery as an anchor institution or building. There is ambiguity at the moment in terms of the continuation of the project when it comes to funding. The funding comes to an end within this financial year, as far as I understand it. So, what discussions have there been in terms of the financial sustainability of the project with regard to the investment that has been made? What would you want to see the Government committing to? Because it's becoming clear that the resources perhaps aren't held by Amgueddfa Cymru, the arts council and the national library to continue and fully commit to funding £400,000 a year. 

We as the arts council can't fund £400,000 a year for the national art gallery. That isn't possible for us to do with the cuts that we've faced. I think that's it's a project that's in a very good place at the moment. The work that the staff have done, the digitalisation work that's been done, wouldn't have happened without the art gallery. There's capital work going on now to improve up to eight or nine galleries across Wales, which will improve the experience for the audiences. It will mean that there are more possibilities to have higher quality of art being shown in in the galleries around Wales. So, quite a few good things have happened.

Also now, of course, there is activity that's happened around the project. So, it's in a good place. But every partner around the board has been consistent in saying that we need some sort of continuity of sponsorship from the Government to make sure that the project continues. That has been consistent along the journey we've been on, and, therefore, there are discussions. I was at a steering group meeting a while ago, and the Government have asked for more details. The flow is heading towards the museum as the main partner in the future, after 2025, because what's needed is to ensure—. The museum and the national library did lend out their work, previously, but now that there's a national art gallery in a series of galleries around Wales, that work is going to be quite a bit more significant, with more pressure. What's important is that, somehow, after the spending that's been on the galleries, we can have some kind of distribution system that's sustainable—

Will you continue to be a partner for that? Do you see a role for the arts council in that?

Not necessarily. Some things are being discussed in terms of whether it remains as a project, whether there's an additional steering group needed. Maybe we'd be part of that. Our relationship, of course, is with the art galleries—it's us who funds them. As it happens, every one of them, I think, is part of the multi-year funding portfolio, so it makes sense for us to be engaged, but it's not us who will lead on that. But that could change.

Thank you very much. I'm afraid we have run out of time. May I thank you very much for your evidence this afternoon? A transcript of what's been said will be sent to you for you to check that it's an accurate record of the proceedings. There will be a few additional questions that we'll want to ask in writing that we haven't had a chance to ask today, but thank you very much for your time this afternoon. We very much appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thank you. We will go into private session now.

Good afternoon and welcome back to our session. We're once again looking at the impact of funding reductions on culture and sport, and this evidence session is with the Welsh National Opera. I will ask our witnesses to introduce themselves for the record, and I'll go first of all to Christopher Barron, who is here with us in the room.

Welcome back. I'm sorry about the delay there, but we're back now with our session with Welsh National Opera. If it's okay with both of you, we'll move straight into questions.

We'll move to Heledd.