Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon, a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol
Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee
13/10/2022Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol
Committee Members in Attendance
| Alun Davies | |
| Buffy Williams | Aelod o'r Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg |
| Member of the Children, Young People and Education Committee | |
| Delyth Jewell | Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor |
| Committee Chair | |
| Hefin David | |
| Heledd Fychan | |
| Sioned Williams | Aelod o'r Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg |
| Member of the Children, Young People and Education Committee | |
| Tom Giffard | |
Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol
Others in Attendance
| Angharad Morgan | Mudiad Meithrin |
| Mudiad Meithrin | |
| Aled Jones-Griffith | ColegauCymru |
| CollegesWales | |
| Dafydd Trystan | Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol |
| Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol | |
| Darren Price | Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru |
| Welsh Local Government Association | |
| Efa Gruffudd Jones | Ymgeisydd a ffefrir gan Lywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer rôl Comisiynydd y Gymraeg |
| Preferred candidate for the role of Welsh Language Commissioner | |
| Meinir Ebbsworth | Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Addysg Cymru |
| Association of Directors of Education in Wales |
Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol
Senedd Officials in Attendance
| Andrea Storer | Dirprwy Glerc |
| Deputy Clerk | |
| Lleu Williams | Clerc |
| Clerk | |
| Llinos Madeley | Clerc |
| Clerk | |
| Manon Huws | Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol |
| Legal Adviser | |
| Osian Bowyer | Ymchwilydd |
| Researcher | |
| Sara Moran | Ymchwilydd |
| Researcher | |
| Tom Lewis-White | Ail Glerc |
| Second Clerk |
Cynnwys
Contents
Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.
The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.
Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor yn y Senedd a thrwy gynhadledd fideo.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:31.
The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference.
The meeting began at 09:31.
Gaf i ddod â'r cyfarfod i drefn? Cyfarfod i drafod penodiad y darpar Gomisiynydd y Gymraeg. Liciwn i groesawu Efa Gruffudd Jones i'r cyfarfod y bore yma. Byddaf i'n cadeirio'r pedair eitem gyntaf ar yr agenda heddiw, fel Cadeirydd dros dro, wedi cael fy ethol yn y cyfarfod diwethaf. Bydd Delyth Jewell a Heledd Fychan yn ymuno â'r cyfarfod yn ddiweddarach y bore yma, a dŷn ni'n gobeithio y bydd Sioned Williams yn dod i'r sesiwn gyntaf yma fel eilydd yn lle Delyth a Heledd. Mae Tom Giffard yma gyda fi yn yr ystafell, ac mae Hefin David yn ymuno gyda ni ar Zoom.
May I bring the meeting to order? This is a meeting to discuss the appointment of the Welsh Language Commissioner. I'd like to welcome Efa Gruffudd Jones to the meeting this morning. I will be chairing the first four items on the agenda today, as temporary Chair, having been elected in the last meeting. Delyth Jewell and Heledd Fychan will join the meeting later this morning, and we're hoping that Sioned Williams will be joining this first session as a substitute for Delyth and Heledd. We have Tom Giffard here with me in the room, and Hefin David is joining us on Zoom.
Efa, dwi eisiau'ch croesawu chi i'r cyfarfod. Fel dŷch chi'n gwybod, dŷn ni'n gwneud y gwrandawiadau yma ar gyfer pob un penodiad cyhoeddus. Mae'n gyfle i chi esbonio i ni beth ydy eich gobeithion a'ch disgwyliadau, a hefyd inni ofyn rhai cwestiynau i chi cyn bod y penodiad yn digwydd yn ffurfiol. A liciwch chi ddechrau drwy wneud unrhyw ddatganiad personol?
Efa, I'd like to welcome you to this meeting. As you know, we conduct these pre-appointment hearings for every public appointment. It's an opportunity for you to explain to us what your hopes, what your expectations are, and also for us to ask you some questions before the appointment is formalised. Would you like to start by making an opening, personal statement?
Bore da, bawb. Neis iawn i gyfarfod â chi i gyd ac i fod yma. Rwy wir yn teimlo ei fod e'n fraint ac yn gyfrifoldeb, mewn gwirionedd, i fod yn y sefyllfa yma heddiw. Rwy'n croesawu'n fawr y cyfle i drafod, yn Senedd Cymru, materion yn ymwneud â'r Gymraeg. Mae hynny'n beth gwych iawn ein bod ni'n gallu gwneud hynny, onid yw e.
Beth fyddwn i am ddweud, efallai, am beth dwi'n mynd i ddweud heddiw yw, yn amlwg, dwi ddim wedi cyfarfod â swyddfa'r comisiynydd. Dwi'n ymwybodol bod llawer gyda fi i ddysgu am y Mesur, mae'n siŵr, ac am y gweithdrefnau, ond dwi'n falch iawn o'r cyfle yma heddiw jest efallai i rannu ychydig o fy mhrofiad, ychydig o fy nyheadau, ac wrth gwrs i chi ofyn unrhyw gwestiwn i fi. Ond dwi'n gyffrous iawn wrth feddwl am y posibilrwydd y byddaf i'n gallu cyflawni'r rôl, a byddwn i wrth gwrs yn gwneud hynny hyd eithaf fy ngallu.
Good morning, all. Wonderful to meet you all and to be here. I truly feel that it's a privilege and a responsibility to be in this position today. I warmly welcome the opportunity to discuss issues related to the Welsh language in the Welsh Parliament. It's wonderful that we're able to do that.
What I would like to say is that, clearly, I haven't met the commissioner's office. I know I have a great deal to learn about the Measure and about procedure, but I'm very pleased to have this opportunity today just to share some of my experience and my aspirations, and of course to give you an opportunity to ask any questions you have of me. But I'm very excited in considering the possibility that I will be able to fulfil this role, and of course I would do that to the best of my abilities.
Diolch i chi am hynny. Dŷch chi'n dweud eich bod chi heb gael cyfle i gyfarfod â'r swyddfa eto—dwi'n deall hynny. Ond beth ydy'ch gobeithion ar gyfer y swydd? Dŷn ni i gyd yn gwneud cais ar gyfer y pethau yma. Mae Hefin yn mynd i ddod i mewn mewn munud, ond liciwn i jest ddechrau'r sesiwn drwy ofyn i chi beth ydy eich gobeithion. Beth ydych chi'n disgwyl gallu gwneud yn ystod y blynyddoedd nesaf?
Thank you for that. You say that you haven't had an opportunity to meet the office yet—I understand that. But what are your hopes for the post? We all make an application for these sorts of things. Hefin is going to come in in a minute, but I'd just like to start the session by asking you what your hopes are. What do you expect to be able to deliver in the next few years?
Wel, ym mhob swydd dwi wedi'i chael yn flaenorol, mae un peth wedi fy ngyrru i yn y gwaith yma, sef fy nymuniad i i weld y Gymraeg yn ffynnu yng Nghymru, a dwi'n gobeithio fy mod i wedi defnyddio'r cyfleoedd blaenorol i gynyddu'r cyfleoedd sydd ar gael i bobl i ddysgu a defnyddio'r Gymraeg. Felly, dyna yw'r hyn sydd yn fy ysbrydoli i bob dydd, mewn gwirionedd, yn fy ngwaith. Felly, i fi, roeddwn i'n gweld y cyfle o ymgymryd â'r rôl yma yn estyniad o hynny, ond hefyd, yn bwysig iawn, mae swyddfa'r comisiynydd, a'r ffaith bod Comisiynydd y Gymraeg gyda ni, yn un sefydliad neu floc pwysig iawn yn y gwaith o ddatblygu'r Gymraeg yng Nghymru. Felly, fy nymuniad i fyddai archwilio, efallai, sut mae modd defnyddio'r swydd a'r rôl a'r Mesur i'w llawn botensial er mwyn cynyddu'r defnydd o'r Gymraeg a sicrhau ei hyfywedd. Mae'r Mesur wedi ei basio ers 11 o flynyddoedd erbyn hyn, neu 10, efallai, a'r swyddfa wedi ei sefydlu a rheoliadau wedi cael eu rhoi ar waith, ond dwi ddim yn meddwl y byddai'n beth drwg, efallai, wrth ddechrau yn y rôl i edrych ar y posibiliadau y mae'r Mesur yn ei gynnig o ran y Gymraeg.
Well, in all roles I've held previously, there is one thing that's driven me in that work, namely my desire to see the Welsh language prosper in Wales, and I hope that I have taken previous opportunities to increase the opportunities available to people to learn and to use the Welsh language. So, that's what inspires me on a day-to-day basis in my working life. So, for me, I saw the opportunity of undertaking this role of an extension of that, but also, very importantly, the commissioner's office, and the fact that we do have a Welsh Language Commissioner, is a very important building block in the work of developing the Welsh language in Wales. So, my aspiration would be to look at how the role and the Measure could be used to their full potential in order to increase the use of the Welsh language and to ensure its viability. A Measure was passed 11 years ago, or was it 10 perhaps, and an office was established and regulations were put in place, but I don't think it would be a bad thing, perhaps, in beginning in this role, to look at the possibilities provided by the Measure in terms of the Welsh language.
Beth ydych chi'n meddwl wrth ddweud hynny, achos mae'r Mesur yn ddigon amlwg?
What do you mean by that, because the Measure is in place?
Mae'r Mesur yn amlwg. Dwi ddim wedi astudio'r Mesur yn llawn, ond mae cymalau cyntaf y Mesur yn ei gwneud hi'n glir bod yr hawl gan y comisiynydd i wneud unrhyw beth yn ei dyb e sy'n hybu'r Gymraeg ac yn hwyluso'r defnydd o'r Gymraeg. I fi, mae hynny'n golygu unrhyw beth yn ei dyb e sy'n cynyddu'r defnydd o'r Gymraeg, a dwi'n hollol ymwybodol bod swyddfa'r comisiynydd wedi gwneud gwaith pwysig iawn yn gosod safonau yn eu lle a safonau ar gyrff, ond dwi'n tybio bod pobl Cymru eisiau gwneud mwy na delio â sefydliadau cyhoeddus yn unig drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Felly, buaswn i jest eisiau cymryd y cyfle. Yn amlwg, dwi heb drafod gyda'r swyddfa, fel dwi'n dweud—
Indeed, yes. I haven't studied it in full, but the first clauses make it clear that the commissioner has a right to do anything that he or she believes would promote and facilitate the use of the Welsh language. Now, for me, that means anything that would increase the use of the Welsh language, and I am very aware that the commissioner's office has done very important work in placing standards on public bodies, but I believe that the people of Wales want to do more than just deal with public authorities through the medium of Welsh. So, I would just want to take the opportunity. Clearly, I haven't had any discussions with the office, as I said—
Wel, chi sy'n arwain y swyddfa, felly chi sy'n gwneud y penderfyniadau.
You'll be leading, so you'll be making the decisions.
Wel, ie, wrth gwrs, ond mae fy null rheoli, Alun, yn golygu fy mod i'n trio bod yn gynhwysol ac yn cymryd pobl gyda fi, ac yn gwrando ar bobl eraill. Dwi'n credu mai fy mhwynt cychwynnol i wrth arwain byddai rhoi ystyriaeth i sut y gall swyddfa'r comisiynydd a'r adnoddau sydd ganddi hi gael eu defnyddio orau i gynyddu'r defnydd o'r Gymraeg. Dwi'n meddwl bod swyddfa'r comisiynydd yn gorff pwysig iawn nid i helpu Llywodraeth Cymru—dwi'n meddwl mai pobl Cymru sydd angen strategaeth Cymraeg 2050, ac mae gan bawb ran i'w chwarae. Felly, buaswn i am archwilio hefyd sut y gall yr hyn sydd yn y Mesur, yr adnoddau sydd gan y comisiynydd orau gyfrannu at sicrhau bod y strategaeth yna yn cael ei chyflawni. Mae pwerau yn y Mesur sy'n golygu bod y comisiynydd yn gallu cynnal ymchwiliadau a chynghori Gweinidogion, felly buaswn i'n hoffi edrych ar yr holl bosibiliadau sydd yn y Mesur i alluogi'r comisiynydd i wneud y gwaith orau y gall e.
O ran y cyfnod o saith mlynedd, dwi wedi bod yn fy swydd bresennol am saith mlynedd, felly mae gen i rywfaint o syniad, efallai, o beth sy'n bosib ei ddatblygu dros saith mlynedd a beth sy'n bosib ei gyflawni. Felly, buaswn i am edrych ar y cyfnod hwnnw fel un lle mae'r comisiynydd, os mai fi yw'r person hwnnw, ar ddiwedd y cyfnod yn dweud, 'Wel, mae gwaith y swyddfa yma wedi arwain at y cynnydd yma yn y defnydd o'r Gymraeg', a buaswn i'n mesur popeth yn ôl hynny.
Well, yes, of course, but my managerial style does mean that I do try to be inclusive and take people with me and listen to others. I think my starting point in leading would be to give consideration to how the commissioner's office and the resources available could be best used to increase the use of the Welsh language. I think the commissioner's office is a very important body, not to assist Welsh Government, as I think it's the people of Wales who need the Cymraeg 2050 strategy, and everyone has their part to play. So, I would like to look at what's contained within the Measure and how the resources available to the commissioner could best contribute to ensuring that that strategy is delivered. There are powers in the Measure that will mean that the commissioner can hold inquiries and can advise Ministers, so I would like to look at all of the possibilities that could enable the commissioner to work to the best of his or her abilities.
In terms of the period of seven years, I've been in my current role for seven years, so I have some idea as to what can be developed in that period and what can be delivered. So, I would like to look at that period as one where the commissioner, if I am that person at the end of this process, could say, 'Well, the work of this office has led to this progress in the use of the Welsh language', and I would measure everything against that.
Diolch yn fawr. Hefin.
Thank you very much. Hefin.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Cadeirydd dros dro. Dysgwr Cymraeg ydw i. Gofynnodd Alun Davies fy nghwestiwn cyntaf, felly, yn eich barn chi, beth yw eich prif flaenoriaeth wrth gamu i'r rôl hon?
Thank you very much, temporary Chair. I am a Welsh learner. Alun Davies asked my first question, therefore, in your view, what is your main priority in stepping into this role?
Efallai fy mod i wedi cyffwrdd ar hynny'n barod, sef mai fy mhrif flaenoriaeth fyddai cynyddu'r defnydd y Gymraeg. Dyna unig bwrpas swyddfa'r comisiynydd a'r rôl, dwi'n credu. Fodd bynnag, mae llawer o is-flaenoriaethau y buaswn i'n gallu eu hystyried wrth wneud y gwaith hynny. Mae yna gyrff sy'n dod o dan y safonau sy'n ddylanwadol iawn yng Nghymru, er enghraifft Llywodraeth Cymru ac awdurdodau lleol Cymru, sy'n darparu llu o wasanaethau i bobl Cymru. Buaswn i am sicrhau bod swyddfa'r comisiynydd yn deall beth yw blaenoriaethau pobl Cymru o ran cynyddu defnydd o'r Gymraeg.
Os ydyn ni'n meddwl am y maes iechyd, er enghraifft, sydd wrth gwrs yn faes enfawr, a oes yna wasanaethau iechyd y buasai pobl Cymru yn hoffi eu blaenoriaethu o ran cynyddu defnydd y Gymraeg o fewn y gwasanaeth iechyd? Mae yna faes rwy'n gyfarwydd iawn ag ef, sef maes gwaith ieuenctid. A oes pobl wedi gofyn i bobl ifanc beth yw eu blaenoriaethau nhw o ran y gwasanaethau yr hoffen nhw eu derbyn gan awdurdodau lleol, er enghraifft? Felly, mae yna gwestiwn, dwi'n credu, o ran blaenoriaethau yn y swydd: cynyddu’r defnydd o’r Gymraeg a dod i gasgliadau am beth yw’r meysydd blaenoriaeth a ble y dylai’r comisiynydd a’i swyddfa rhoi egni i gefnogi a chynorthwyo sefydliadau cyhoeddus i ddatblygu eu darpariaeth nhw.
Well, perhaps I've already touched on that, in that my main priority would be to increase the use of the Welsh language. That's the only purpose of the office of the commissioner and the role, I believe. However, there are many other sub-priorities that I could consider in doing that work. There are organisations captured under standards that are very influential in Wales, for example the Welsh Government and local authorities in Wales, which provide a range of services to the people of Wales. I would want to ensure that the commissioner's office would understand the priorities of the people of Wales in terms of increasing the use of the Welsh language.
If we think of health, for example, which of course is a huge area, are there health services that the people of Wales would like to see prioritised in terms of the use of the Welsh language in the health service? There is an area that I'm very familiar with, which is the area of youth work. Has anyone asked young people what their priorities are in terms of the services that they would like to receive from local authorities, for example? So, there is a question, I think, about priorities in this role: increasing the use of the Welsh language and coming to conclusions as to what are the priority areas and where the commissioner and the office should focus their energies in terms of supporting and assisting public bodies to develop their provision.
Diolch. A beth yw eich asesiad cyffredinol o sefyllfa'r Gymraeg yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd? A sut fydd yr heriau sydd o'n blaen, yn ogystal â'r cynnydd a wnaed, yn helpu i lunio eich blaenoriaethau?
Thank you. And what is your general assessment of the current position of the Welsh language in Wales? And how will the challenges ahead, as well as progress made, shape your priorities?
Ie, mae hwnna’n gwestiwn diddorol ar hyn o bryd. Cyhoeddwyd ffigurau’r cyfrifiad diwethaf yn 2011, ac rŷn ni'n aros am ffigurau'r cyfrifiad nesaf. Dŷn ni ddim yn gwybod beth fydd canlyniadau’r cyfrifiad hwnnw. Buaswn i'n dychmygu y bydd canlyniadau’r cyfrifiad hwnnw yn gyrru rhywfaint o’r blaenoriaethau o ran gwaith i hyrwyddo’r Gymraeg yng Nghymru. Serch hynny, mae yna arolygon defnydd iaith wedi eu cynnal dros y cyfnod diwethaf sydd yn dangos tueddiadau gweddol gadarnhaol o ran defnydd o’r iaith.
Fy asesiad o sefyllfa’r iaith yn gyffredinol yw bod angen i bawb wneud cymaint ag y gallwn ni i gefnogi’r Gymraeg. Rŷn ni'n byw wrth ymyl iaith sydd yn iaith ryngwladol, bwerus iawn, a diwylliant poblogaidd sy'n gryf iawn ar draws y byd i gyd. Felly, does dim syndod bod angen i ni i gyd ddyblu ein hymdrechion i gefnogi diwylliant bywiog drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg i sicrhau bod plant a phobl ifanc yn cael cyfleoedd i ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg y tu allan i’r ystafell ddosbarth. Mae yna bethau, er enghraifft, fel Maes B yn yr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol, sydd siŵr o fod yn gwneud llawer iawn o ran delwedd a dyhead pobl ifanc i siarad Cymraeg—mwy weithiau, efallai, na beth sy’n digwydd yn yr ystafell ddosbarth—felly, mae angen edrych yn holistaidd ar beth rŷn ni yn ei gynnig fel cymdeithas i bobl fwynhau a defnyddio.
Dwi wedi bod yn gadeirydd ar Theatr Genedlaethol Cymru ac os ŷch chi'n meddwl am y gwaith y mae’r theatr yn ei wneud, er enghraifft, mae mynd i’r theatr Gymraeg yn un o’r ychydig achlysuron lle gallwch fynd i ddigwyddiad uniaith Gymraeg. Mae'r cyfleoedd i bobl ymwneud â digwyddiadau uniaith Gymraeg yng Nghymru, dydyn nhw ddim yn helaeth. Felly, mae diddordeb gyda fi mewn edrych ar y cysyniad o sut gallwn ni ddatblygu cyfleoedd i'w gwneud hi'n hawdd i bobl siarad Cymraeg. Ac mae hyn yn wir am ddysgwyr wrth gwrs. Mae yna drafodaeth am wneud popeth rŷn ni'n gallu i godi hyder dysgwyr a siaradwyr, buaswn i'n dadlau. Ac wrth gwrs bod hynny'n wir, ond mae hynny wedyn yn rhoi'r cyfrifoldeb ar yr unigolyn, lle, os rŷn ni'n creu cyfleoedd lle mai'r Gymraeg yw'r iaith, mae'n gwneud hi'n llawer haws i ddysgwr, i siaradwr newydd ac i siaradwr i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg yn ddiofyn and yn hwylus.
Felly, mae yna lu o bethau, dwi'n meddwl, y mae angen edrych arnyn nhw. Dwi'n meddwl y byddwn ni angen blaenoriaethu wrth ifi ddechrau ar fy ngwaith, a phenderfynu beth yw'r blaenoriaethau mwyaf pwysig wrth edrych ar strategaeth Cymraeg 2050, wrth drafod gyda Llywodraeth Cymru, gydag awdurdodau lleol Cymru, ond efallai yn bennaf drwy siarad gyda phobl neu ffeindio ffordd o gael barn. Gallwn ni ddim holi pawb wrth gwrs, ond mae yna ddulliau—mae yna grwpiau ffocws ac mae yna bethau mae modd eu trafod er mwyn casglu barn. Ac i fod yn deg, dwi'n meddwl bod swyddfa’r comisiynydd yn cynnal arolwg omnibws o farn siaradwyr Cymraeg ar hyn o bryd am y defnydd o wasanaethau, ond dwi'n meddwl efallai y byddwn i’n bersonol yn hoffi gwneud yn siŵr ein bod ni'n gwrando ar farn pobl. Yn sicr, yn fy swyddi blaenorol, dwi wedi ceisio rhoi'r bobl ŷn ni'n eu gwasanaethu yn y canol, fel ein bod ni'n ymateb i'w hanghenion a'u dyheadau nhw. Ydy hwnna wedi ateb y cwestiwn?
Yes, that's an interesting question in the current climate. The figures of the last census were published in 2011, and we are awaiting the figures from the recent census. We don't know what the results of that census will be. I would imagine that the census results will drive some of the priorities in terms of work in promoting the Welsh language in Wales. However, there are language use surveys that have been conducted over recent years that do demonstrate quite positive trends in terms of the use of the Welsh language.
My assessment of the position of the language, generally speaking, is that everyone must do as much as we can to support the Welsh language. We have a neighbour with a very powerful, international language and a popular culture that is very strong globally. So, it's no surprise that we all need to redouble our efforts to support a vibrant culture through the medium of Welsh to ensure that children and young people have an opportunity to use the Welsh language outside the classroom. There are things such as Maes B in the National Eisteddfod, which I'm sure does a great deal in terms of the image and aspiration of young people to speak Welsh—more perhaps, occasionally, than what happens in the classroom—so, we need to look holistically at what we provide as a society so that people can enjoy and use the Welsh language.
I have been chair of Theatr Genedlaethol Cymru, and if you think of the work that the theatre does, for example, then going to Welsh language theatre is one of the few occasions where you can go to a monolingually Welsh event. The opportunities for people to be involved in monolingually Welsh events aren't very high in number. So, I'm interested in looking at the concept of how we can develop opportunities to make it easy for people to speak Welsh. And this is true, of course, of Welsh learners. I would argue that there is a discussion about doing everything we can to raise the confidence of Welsh learners and Welsh speakers. And of course that's true, but that then places the responsibility on the individual, whereas, if we create opportunities where the Welsh language is the lingua franca, then it makes it far easier for the learner and new speaker and a Welsh speaker to use the language as a matter o default.
So, there are a whole host of things that we need to look at, I think. I do think that we would need to prioritise, as I begin in my role, and decide on the most important priorities in looking at the Cymraeg 2050 strategy, in discussions with the Welsh Government and with local authorities in Wales, but, perhaps, mainly by speaking to the people of Wales and finding a way to get their views. We can't speak to everyone, of course, but there are ways and means—there are focus groups and there are things that can be discussed in order to gather people's views. And, to be fair, I think the commissioner's office is conducting an omnibus survey of the views of Welsh speakers at the moment as regards the use of services, but I think that perhaps I personally would want to ensure that we listen to the views of people. Certainly, in my previous roles, I have sought to put the people we serve at the heart of our activities, so that we respond to their needs and their aspirations. Has that answered your question?
Ydy. Sut fyddech chi'n manteisio ar eich gwybodaeth, eich sgiliau a'ch profiad blaenorol i adeiladu ar waith comisiynwyr blaenorol a symud ymlaen â'r gwaith hwnnw?
Yes, it has. How would you draw on your knowledge, skills and past experience to build on and progress the work of previous commissioners?
Mi wnaf i jest ymhelaethu ychydig ar fy mhrofiadau blaenorol. Mi oedd fy swydd gyntaf i gyda Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg, fel mae'n digwydd, felly mae hynny wedi rhoi dealltwriaeth gynnar i fi o faes polisi'r Gymraeg a sut mae pethau wedi datblygu dros y blynyddoedd.
O ran y sgiliau efallai mwyaf perthnasol i swydd Comisiynydd y Gymraeg, a'r swyddi a phrofiad blaenorol, hoffwn i gyfeirio at fy ngwaith gydag Urdd Gobaith Cymru. Fe ddechreuais i gyda'r Urdd yn codi aran a nawdd masnachol i weithgareddau'r Urdd, dim ond er mwyn cynyddu'r gweithgareddau rôn i'n gallu eu cynnig i blant a phobl ifanc. Yn dilyn hynny, ces i fy mhenodi yn brif weithredwr yr Urdd, flynyddoedd lawer yn ôl erbyn hyn, ac fe fues i'n brif weithredwr ar Urdd Gobaeith Cymru am tua 12 o flynyddoedd, os cofiaf i'n iawn.
Mi oedd y profiadau perthnasol i'r swydd yma yn cynnwys ymgysylltu gyda phobl ar draws Cymru, sylweddoli cymaint o waith gwirfoddol mae pobl wych yn ei wneud ar draws Cymru i ddatblygu gweithgareddau i blant a phobl ifanc, datblygu cynlluniau corfforaethol i'r corff, datblygu dulliau o ddenu arian a rheoli prosiectau yn llwyddiannus, sicrhau llywodraethiant effeithiol, edrych yn fanwl ar gyllidebau a sicrhau rheolaeth ariannol, blaenoriaethu drwy'r amser beth oedd yn bwysicaf i'r sefydliad, a jest sicrhau rheolaeth effeithiol o un o elusennau mwyaf Cymru.
O ran fy rôl gyda'r Ganolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol, doedd y corff hwnnw ddim yn bodoli tan i fi gael fy mhenodi, felly dwi wedi sefydlu'r corff hwnnw a, dwi'n gobeithio y byddai pobl yn cytuno, wedi trawsnewid sefyllfa dysgu Cymraeg ar draws Cymru—nid fi yn unig, wrth gwrs, ond gyda fy nghydweithwyr a gyda'r darparwyr dysgu Cymraeg ymroddedig ar draws Cymru. Ac erbyn hyn, rŷn ni'n gallu dweud bod gyda ni un gwasanaeth cenedlaethol i ddysgwyr y Gymraeg. Mae datblygu cynllun strategol i'r corff hwnnw wedi bod yn flaenoriaeth i fi, ac mi oedd penderfyniadau cynnar iawn ym mywyd y ganolfan, er enghraifft blaenoriaethu buddsoddi mewn pethau digidol, a chreu gwasanaeth siop un stop i ddysgwyr ar blatfform digidol, wedi golygu, pan ddaeth amser COVID, ein bod ni wedi gallu nid yn unig parhau â'n gwasanaethau ond cynyddu y niferoedd yn dysgu Cymraeg.
Felly, o ran profiad blaenorol, mae gen i brofiad o arwain sefydliadau, o gymell cydweithwyr, o gydweithio'n hapus gyda chydweithwyr, profiad o gynnal ymgyrchoedd marchnata i ddenu pobl i ddysgu Cymraeg, i gymryd rhan mewn gweithgareddau, profiad o reoli digwyddiadau—Eisteddfod Genedlaethol yr Urdd, wrth gwrs, yn ddigwyddiad lle roedd angen tipyn o asesu risg ac yn y blaen. Felly, profiadau helaeth dwi'n gobeithio sy'n fy ngwneud i'n gymwys ar gyfer y swydd yma. Mae'r swydd yma, wrth gwrs, yn wahanol; siŵr o fod yn fwy gwleidyddol ei natur, er roedd angen i fi yn fy swyddi blaenorol hefyd gynnal perthynas dda gyda phob plaid, ac yn sicr gyda Gweinidogion er mwyn denu mwy o gyllid a buddsoddiad a sicrhau Gweinidogion bod y sefydliadau rôn i'n gyfrifol amdanyn nhw yn gwneud gwaith da, a'n bod ni'n cadw'n gair o ran delifro.
If I can just expand on my previous experiences. My first role was with the Welsh Language Board, as it happens, so that's given me an early understanding of the policy area around the Welsh language and how things have developed over the years.
In terms of the most pertinent skills to the role of Welsh Language Commissioner, and my previous experience, I would like to refer to my work with Urdd Gobaith Cymru. I started with the Urdd as a fundraiser, finding commercial sponsorship for activities only to increase the opportunities available to children and young people. Following that, I was appointed chief executive of the Urdd, many years ago now, and I was chief executive of Urdd Gobaith Cymru for around 12 years, if memory serves me.
Experiences relevant to this role included engaging with people across Wales, understanding how much voluntary work is done by excellent people across Wales to develop activities for children and young people, developing corporate plans for the organisation, developing means of attracting funding and managing projects successfully, ensuring effective governance, looking in detail at budgets and ensuring financial management, always prioritising what was most important to the organisation, and just ensuring effective management of one of Wales's biggest charities.
In terms of my role with the National Centre for Learning Welsh, that organisation didn't exist prior to my appointment, so I have established that body and—I hope people would agree—transformed the position of learning Welsh across Wales—not myself alone, of course, but with my colleagues and with the committed learning providers across Wales. And now we can say that we have one national service for Welsh learners. Developing a strategic plan for that body has been a priority for me, and early decisions in the life of the centre, for example prioritising investment in digital, and creating a one-stop shop for learners on a digital platform, meant that when COVID struck, we were able not only to continue to deliver our services, but indeed to increase the numbers of Welsh learners.
So, in terms of previous experience, I've led organisations, I've encouraged colleagues and worked happily with colleagues, I have experience of developing marketing campaigns to attract people to learn Welsh and to participate in activities, I have experience of managing events—the Urdd National Eisteddfod, of course, was an event where there was a great deal of risk assessment and so on. So, I have vast experience hopefully that will qualify me for this role. This role, of course, is different; I'm sure it's perhaps more political in its nature, although in my previous roles, I have had to maintain good relations with all parties, and certainly with Ministers in order to attract more funding and investment and to reassure Ministers that the organisations that I was responsible for were doing good work and that we were keeping our words in terms of delivery.
Hefin, are you content with that? You are content. Tom.
Yn y dyfodol, mae cerrig milltir i ddod o'n blaenau ni o ran yr iaith, gan gynnwys sensws 2021, felly sut fyddwch chi'n defnyddio'ch profiad chi i hyrwyddo'r iaith a chefnogi'r iaith drwy'r cerrig milltir yna sydd i ddod?
In the future, there are some significant milestones ahead in terms of the language, including the results of the 2021 census, so how will you use your experience to promote the language and support the language through those milestones ahead?
Dydyn ni ddim yn gwybod eto a fydd y carreg milltir hwnnw'n un positif neu yn un negyddol, ond beth bynnag yw e, rydym ni angen ei ddefnyddio fe i'w lawn botensial. Mae yna gerrig milltir eraill, er enghraifft mae yna daflwybr yn y strategaeth 'Cymraeg 2050' sy'n cynnwys y galw i gyrraedd targedau penodol ar adegau penodol, er enghraifft yng nghyswllt y nifer o athrawon sy'n gallu dysgu trwy'r Gymraeg a'r nifer o blant sydd mewn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg. Felly, ar bob un o'r pwyntiau yma, dwi'n meddwl ei fod e'n bwysig iawn bod y comisiynydd a'i swyddfa yn gwneud nid yn unig datganiadau ond yn sicrhau bod yna gynlluniau er mwyn ymateb i'r heriau a'r consensws sy'n digwydd.
Dwi ddim yn meddwl y gall swyddfa'r comisiynydd wneud hynny ar ei phen ei hun. Byddwn i am sicrhau bod yna gydweithio a chyd-ddealltwriaeth ar draws y sefydliadau y mae'r comisiynydd yn cydweithio â nhw. Rôn i mewn cynhadledd yr wythnos diwethaf, fel mae'n digwydd, ac roedd yna siaradwr yna o Wlad y Basg. Maen nhw'n buddsoddi mwy na Chymru, fel mae'n digwydd, ar hyrwyddo'r Fasgeg, ond beth bynnag am hynny, gwnawn ni'n gorau gyda beth sydd gyda ni ar hyn o bryd a cheisio denu mwy. Ond mi oedd yna gwestiwn a thrafodaeth ddiddorol. Mi oedd y corff cynllunio canolog yn creu syniad ar sail ymchwil, ond wedyn mi oedd partneriaid eraill oedd yn perchnogi'r syniad a'i hyrwyddo fe, sef yn achos Gwlad y Basg y rhanbarthau lleol. Beth oeddwn i'n cymryd o hyn oedd bod swyddfa’r comisiynydd neu'r cynllunwyr iaith neu'r cyrff ddim yn gallu gwneud popeth sydd ei angen ar eu pennau eu hunain; mae angen ysbrydoli pobl eraill i gymryd perchnogaeth. Dyw hynny ddim yn digwydd trwy fod yn gas, mae'n digwydd trwy fod yn helpful a charedig. Rŷn ni'n moyn mwy o bobl i rannu'r weledigaeth.
Os nad yw ffigurau'r cyfrifiad beth bydden ni'n hoffi iddyn nhw fod, mae yna resymau am hynny, a bydd angen astudio beth yw'r rhesymau hynny, ond dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n deg dweud bod y cyfrifiad diwethaf efallai wedi arwain at ambell i beth cadarnhaol o ran y Gymraeg. Ond mae angen tynnu mwy o bobl i mewn i'r sgwrs a chael cyn gymaint o bobl â phosib i berchnogi'r awydd a'r dyhead i gadw'r Gymraeg i bobl Cymru i gyd. Dwi ddim yn sôn am siaradwyr Cymraeg yn unig. Mae'r Gymraeg yn perthyn i bawb sy'n byw yng Nghymru, p'un ai ŷn nhw'n siarad yr iaith ai peidio. Rydym ni'n gwybod o arolygon barn fod y mwyafrif o bobl Cymru yn gefnogol, p'un ai ydyn nhw'n siarad y Gymraeg ai peidio.
Felly, dwi'n siŵr bod heriau o'n blaenau ni yn y saith mlynedd nesaf. Mae'n rhan o rôl swyddfa'r comisiynydd i gadw efallai pawb i drefn ychydig bach o ran beth yw'r blaenoriaethau, beth yw'r cerrig milltir, ond o ran sut ŷn ni'n ymateb i'r cerrig milltir, ein bod ni yn trio creu consensws o gwmpas hynny. Wrth gwrs, mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn bartner hynod o bwysig yn hynny, a'r cyrff sy'n gyfrifol am ddarparu'r prif wasanaethau i bobl Cymru.
We don't know yet whether that milestone will be positive or negative, but we need to use it to its full potential. There are other milestones, for example there is a trajectory in the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy that includes the need to meet specific targets at specific times, for example in the context of the number of teachers who can teach through the medium of Welsh and the number of pupils in Welsh-medium education. So, at each one of these points, I think it's important that the commissioner and the commissioner's office makes not only statements, but ensures that there are plans to respond to the challenges and the consensus that lie ahead.
I don't think the commissioner's office can do that on its own. I would want to ensure that there is collaboration across the organisations that the commissioner works with. I was in a conference last week, as it happens, and there was a speaker there from the Basque Country. They're investing more than Wales, as it happens, in promoting the Basque language, but be that as it may, we will try to do our best with what we've got already and try to attract more. But there was a discussion, an interesting one, there. The central planning body was creating an idea based on research, but then other partners were taking ownership of the idea and promoting it, in the case of the Basque Country the local regions. But what I took from this was the commissioner's office, or the language planners, or the bodies wouldn't be able to do everything that's needed on their own. They need to inspire other people to take ownership, and that doesn't happen by being fierce, it happens by being helpful and kind. We want more people to share the vision.
If the census figures aren't what we would like them to be, there are reasons for that, and there'll be a need to study those reasons, but I think it's fair to say that the last census, perhaps, has led to some positive steps in terms of the Welsh language. But there is a need to draw more people into the conversation and have as many people as possible to take ownership of the desire to keep the Welsh language for all people in Wales. And I'm not talking about Welsh speakers only. The Welsh language belongs to everybody who lives in Wales, whether they speak the language or not. We know from surveys that the majority of people in Wales are supportive, whether they speak the Welsh language or not.
So, I'm sure there are challenges in front of us in the next seven years. It's part of the role of the commissioner to keep everybody in order, perhaps, in terms of priorities and milestones, but in terms of how we respond to the milestones, that we create consensus around that. Of course, the Welsh Government is an extremely important partner in that regard, and the bodies responsible for providing the main services for the people of Wales.
Rydych chi wedi sôn yn barod am lwyddiant a beth fydd llwyddiant yn edrych fel. Os byddech chi'n gallu 'condense-o' y llwyddiant hwnnw i lawr i dri chanlyniad allweddol, beth bydden nhw a beth fydd rhaid digwydd i gyrraedd hynny?
You've already mentioned success and what success would look like. If you could condense that success down to three key outcomes, what would they be and what would need to happen to get there?
Gwnaf i ddechrau gydag un. Does dim cwestiwn gyda fi mai cynyddu defnydd o'r Gymraeg yw'r prif un. Nid cynyddu faint o wasanaethau sydd ar gael yw e—does dim ots. Os oes neb yn defnyddio'r gwasanaethau hynny, does dim pwynt. Felly, cynyddu'r defnydd o'r Gymraeg—achos fe allwch chi gynyddu'r defnydd o'r Gymraeg heb wastad gynyddu'r defnydd o'r gwasanaethau.
Dyw cynyddu'r defnydd o'r Gymraeg yng Nghymru ddim yn hawdd i'w feintioli, oherwydd beth ŷch chi'n mynd i'w wneud, rhoi tsip ar bawb bob dydd i siecio? Dŷch chi ddim yn mynd i'w wneud e fel yna. Felly, byddwn i am weld a oes yna ddulliau o fesur, sut ŷn ni'n gallu gweld a oes yna gynyddu defnydd yng Nghymru. Mae'r arolygon defnydd iaith yn ceisio gwneud hynny. Mae yna indicators eraill, efallai—faint o bobl sy'n defnyddio social media yn Gymraeg, faint o bobl sy'n ymwneud â diwylliant a chwaraeon yn Gymraeg. Felly, mae yna siŵr o fod set o indicators y gallwch chi ei ddefnyddio i edrych ar a ydyn ni'n cynyddu'r defnydd. Felly, mesur cynyddu'r defnydd yw'r prif flaenoriaeth.
O ran yr ail flaenoriaeth, dwi'n meddwl bod yn rhaid i ni feddwl am addysg a faint o bobl sydd yn derbyn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg fel mesurydd pendant iawn. Mae'r strategaeth 'Cymraeg 2050' yn dibynnu ar lawer mwy o bobl sydd mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg yn dod allan o addysg yn siarad Cymraeg. Ond, i fi, y flaenoriaeth yw sicrhau fod cynnydd yn y rheini sy'n derbyn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, achos yn amlwg maen nhw'n mynd i fod yn fwy rhugl, ac rydyn ni'n gwybod fod y bobl sy'n fwy rhugl ddwywaith mor debygol o ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg bob dydd.
O ran y drydedd flaenoriaeth, mae hwnna'n bach yn fwy anodd, ond rhywbeth yn ymwneud â phlant a pobl ifanc a defnydd pobl ifanc o'r Gymraeg. Mae'r holl—. Nage, nid holl, achos mae llawer yn dysgu'r Gymraeg fel oedolion yn llwyddiannus. Mae'r rhan fwyaf o'r bobl sy'n mynd i siarad Cymraeg yn rhugl yn y dyfodol yn ein hysgolion ni ar hyn o bryd, felly mae cynyddu eu defnydd cymdeithasol nhw o'r Gymraeg yn hollbwysig, a'r defnydd y gwnawn nhw o'r Gymraeg yn eu teuluoedd nhw. Trosglwyddo’r Gymraeg o fewn teuluoedd—efallai y dylswn i nodi hwnna fel y drydedd flaenoriaeth. Eto, oherwydd ein bod ni'n gwybod bod plant sy'n dysgu'r iaith ar yr aelwyd yn llawer mwy tebygol o ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg yn fwy aml.
Felly, mae hwnna'n gyflym iawn yn dair blaenoriaeth, ond dyna'r math o flaenoriaethau.
I'll begin with one. There's no question that increasing the use of the Welsh language is the main one. It's not increasing the number of services available—that doesn't matter. If nobody's using those services, there's no point. So, increasing the use of the Welsh language—because you can increase the use of the Welsh language without always increasing the use of Welsh language services.
Increasing the use of the Welsh language in Wales isn't easy to quantify, because what are you going to do, put a chip on everybody to check that they're using the language? You can't do it like that. So, we want to look at how we can measure if there's an increase in the use of the Welsh language. There are surveys that try to do that, there are other indicators, perhaps—the number of people who use social media through the medium of Welsh, how many people involve themselves in Welsh culture and sport in Wales. So, there are probably a set of indicators that you can use to see whether we are increasing the use. So, measuring the increase in the use of the Welsh language is the main priority.
In terms of the second priority, I think we have to think about education and how many people receive Welsh-medium education as a very specific measure. The targets of the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy rely on more people in English-medium schools coming out of education speaking Welsh. But, to me, the priority is to ensure that there is an increase in those receiving Welsh medium education, because clearly they are going to be more fluent, and we know that people who are more fluent are twice as likely to use the Welsh language every day.
In terms of the third priority, that's a little bit more difficult, but something relating to children and young people and the use of the Welsh language by young people. All—. Not all, because many learn Welsh as adults successfully. The majority of people who will speak Welsh fluently in the future are in our schools currently, so increasing the social use of the Welsh language amongst them is going to be vital, and the use they make of the Welsh language in their own families. Transferring the language within families—maybe I should note that as the third priority. Again, because we know that children who learn the language at home are more likely to speak Welsh and to use the Welsh language more frequently.
So, very quickly, those are three priorities, but those are the sort of priorities.
Un peth cyflym i orffen, os yw hwnna'n iawn, Alun. Rydych chi wedi sôn yn barod fod yr iaith yn perthyn i bawb, os ydych chi'n ei siarad neu ddim. Ond, mae llawer o bobl yn y canol, lle maen nhw'n gallu siarad tamaid bach. Efallai eu bod nhw ddim yn gwylio S4C neu'n gwrando ar Radio Cymru, ond mae pobl yn y canol sy'n gallu siarad tamaid bach o Gymraeg neu'n gwybod geiriau neu beth bynnag. Sut ydych chi'n mesur y bobl hynny a beth ydych chi'n moyn gweld y bobl yn y grŵp yna yn ei wneud yn y dyfodol?
Just one brief point before I conclude, Alun. You've already mentioned that the language belongs to everyone, whether you speak it or not. But, there are many people in the middle, where they can speak a little Welsh. Perhaps they don't watch S4C or listen to Radio Cymru, but there are those people who can speak some Welsh or can speak a few words, perhaps. So, how do you quantify that group and what would you want to see develop among that group?
I raddau, y grŵp yna yw'r allwedd i lwyddiant cynyddu nifer y gwasanaethau sydd ar gael yn Gymraeg yng Nghymru. Maen nhw, wrth gwrs, yn hunanddiffinio wrth ymateb i arolygon. Mae yna rai sy'n siarad dau air sy'n dweud eu bod nhw'n gallu siarad Cymraeg, ac mae rhai sy'n gallu siarad ond ddim yn hyderus yn dweud eu bod nhw ddim. Felly, mae yna ddarn yn y canol.
Mae yna enghraifft, dwi'n gwybod, ym maes gwasanaethau ieuenctid—wna i ddim enwi'r sir—lle'r oedden nhw'n meddwl eu bod nhw'n methu darparu dim byd yn Gymraeg achos bod dim staff gyda nhw. Ond, o fynd i holi'r staff mewn ffordd wahanol, fe wnaethon nhw ddarganfod wrth gwrs fod gyda nhw garfan o bobl oedd yn gallu siarad Cymraeg ond yn ddihyder. Felly, roedd rhoi hyder iddyn nhw ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg yn y gwaith yn llawer haws i'w wneud ac yn bosib i'w wneud na recriwtio pobl sy'n siarad Cymraeg ac aildrefnu mwy sylweddol i'r system.
Mae yna enghreifftiau hefyd mewn byrddau iechyd. Mae'r Ganolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol wedi bod yn gweithio gyda byrddau iechyd yn benodol i ddarganfod y bobl yma. Dwi'n gwybod am enghraifft yn ddiweddar: mae yna wasanaethau iechyd meddwl trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg nawr yn sir Gaerfyrddin sy'n bodoli oherwydd gwaith sydd wedi digwydd i uwchsgilio hyder y math o bobl â'r sgiliau iaith rwyt ti'n sôn amdanyn nhw.
Felly, i fi, maen nhw'n garfan hynod o bwysig. Ond, byddwn i'n mynd nôl cam eto a dweud nad yw'r cyfrifoldeb wastad ar y person. Dydyn ni ddim yn beio'r person fod dim digon o hyder gyda nhw. Beth yw'r amgylchfyd? Ydyn nhw'n cael y rhyddid i siarad Cymraeg llai na pherffaith heb feirniadaeth? Ydy pobl yn poeni sut beth yw eu Cymraeg nhw, neu ydych chi wrth eich bodd eich bod chi'n clywed rhywun yn siarad Cymraeg ac yn gwrando arnyn nhw ac yn rhoi amser iddyn nhw? Felly, rydych chi wedi rhoi eich bys ar garfan bwysig iawn o bobl yng Nghymru, ac mae yna lawer iawn ohonyn nhw.
To an extent, that group is the key to the success of increasing the number of services available in Welsh in Wales. They, of course, self-define themselves when they're responding to surveys. There are some who speak two words who say they can speak Welsh, and others who can speak but aren't confident who say that they can't. So, there is a middle ground.
There is an example, I know, in the youth services area—I won't name the county—where they thought they couldn't provide anything in Welsh because they didn't have the staff. But, after asking staff in a different way, they discovered of course that they had a cohort of people who could speak Welsh but didn't have much confidence. So, giving them the confidence to use the language in work was much easier and possible to do than recruiting people who were Welsh speakers and more significant changes to the system.
There are also examples in health boards. The National Centre for Learning Welsh has been working with health boards specifically to discover these people. I know of an example recently: there are mental health services through the medium of Welsh in Carmarthenshire now that exist because of work that has been happening to upskill the confidence of people who have the language skills you're talking about.
So, to me, they are an incredibly important cohort. But, I would go back another step and say that the responsibility isn't always on the person. We're not blaming the person that they haven't got the confidence. What are the circumstances? Do they have the freedom to speak Welsh that's less than perfect without criticism? Are people worried about their standard of Welsh, or do you enjoy hearing people speak Welsh and listening to them and giving them time? So, you've pointed your finger there to an extremely important cohort of people in Wales, and there are many of them.
Diolch, Tom. Dwi am ddod â Sioned mewn mewn munud. Roeddwn i'n falch iawn gyda'r ffordd wnaethoch chi ateb y cwestiwn blaenorol, achos dwi'n meddwl mai hyrwyddo ydy'r her fawr sy'n ein hwynebu ni. Mae'n bosibl creu safonau di-ri, ond os nad yw pobl yn teimlo'n hyderus yn y ffordd mae Tom newydd ddisgrifio, does dim pwrpas i'r peth. Felly, dwi eisiau dy wthio di tipyn bach ymhellach ar hynny, os caf fi. Dŷch chi ddim yn mynd i gael mwy o adnoddau yn ystod y blynyddoedd nesaf—dŷn ni'n gwybod hynny. Dŷch chi ddim yn mynd i gael mwy o staff a mwy o gyllid.
Thank you, Tom. I'm going to bring Sioned in shortly. I was very pleased with the way that you answered previous questions, because I do think that promotion is the great challenge facing us. You can create endless standards, but if people don't feel confident in the way that Tom described, then there's no purpose to it. So, I want to push you a little further on that issue, if I may. Now, you're not going to get more resources over the next few years.
Never say never, Alun.
Wel, buaswn i'n synnu, buaswn i'n synnu.
Well, I would be surprised, let's say.
I try to be an optimist.
So, sut ydych chi'n mynd i flaenoriaethu eich amser ac adnoddau rhwng y ddau gyfrifoldeb, achos mae gyda chi'r cyfrifoldeb am reoleiddio? Dwi ddim yn—wel, wnaf i adael ichi ateb y cwestiwn yn hytrach na gofyn ac ateb y cwestiwn. Sut ydych chi'n mynd i flaenoriaethu eich amser ac adnoddau rhwng rheoleiddio a hyrwyddo, achos dŷch chi wedi bod yn glir—a dywedwch wrthyf os dwi'n cael hwn yn rong—mai hyrwyddo ydy eich blaenoriaeth glir yn y swydd?
But, how are you going to prioritise your time and resources between those two responsibilities, because you have that regulatory responsibility? I'm also answering and asking my question here, but how are you going to prioritise your time and resources and balance that regulatory and promotional role, because you have been clear—and correct me if I'm wrong here—that promotion is your clear priority in this role?
Ie, dwi'n meddwl mod i wedi dweud hwn reit ar y dechrau mewn ffordd, sef—. Dwi ddim yn gwybod yr ateb perffaith i dy gwestiwn di.
Yes, I think I said this at the very outset. I don't know the perfect answer to your question.
Dim ateb perffaith. Eich ateb chi—beth yw e?
There is no perfect answer, only your own.
Ond byddwn i yn hoffi edrych ar beth yw'r balans o ran hynny.
Well, yes, but I would like to look at what the balance is in that area.
Ydych chi'n meddwl bod y balans yno'n barod, ar hyn o bryd?
Do you think that the balance is there at the moment?
Dwi'n credu efallai fy mod i, yn fy atebion, wedi awgrymu bod e ddim.
Well, I think, in my answers, I have perhaps suggested that it's not.
Ie, dŷch chi wedi awgrymu, ond dwi'n gofyn yn uniongyrchol.
You suggested, but I'm asking directly.
Wel, dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna'n annheg imi ddweud heb fy mod i wedi eistedd lawr a deall faint o adnoddau'r swyddfa sy'n mynd at bopeth. Felly, dwi ddim yn hollol barod i ateb y cwestiwn yma ar y pwynt yma. Mewn chwe mis, buaswn i'n gobeithio fy mod i yn gallu ateb y cwestiwn. Efallai fy mod i wedi awgrymu bod creu safonau a chynnig gwasanaethau yn un peth, ond mae sicrhau defnydd o'r rheini'n fater arall sy'n dod mwy o dan y cwestiwn o hyrwyddo.
Dwi'n siŵr bod yna le i swyddfa'r comisiynydd a Llywodraeth Cymru i gyd-drafod—a'r cyrff eraill i gyd—hyrwyddo yn effeithiol. Mae yna rai ymgyrchoedd mae swyddfa'r comisiynydd yn eu cynnal; os ydyn ni am barhau i'w cynnal nhw byddwn i am ein gweld yn gwneud hynny mewn llawer mwy o bartneriaeth â chyrff eraill er mwyn eu gwneud nhw'n fwy effeithiol. Felly, dwi'n credu dy fod di wedi deall beth yw fy nhrywydd i, ond gobeithio dy fod yn deall pam fy mod i ddim, ar y pwynt yma, yn fodlon rhoi ateb hollol bendant. Ond, wrth ystyried pob cwestiwn—. Beth fydd gobeithio y tu ôl i bob penderfyniad yw, 'Sut mae hwn yn cynyddu'r defnydd o'r Gymraeg?'
I don't think it would be fair for me to say that before I sit down and look at how resources are prioritised within the office. So, I can't answer the question at this point. In six months, I would hope to be able to give you a clear response. Perhaps I have suggested that creating standards and offering services is one thing, but ensuring usage of those services is another issue that is more closely related to promotion.
I'm sure that there is a role for the commissioner's office and the Welsh Government to discuss—and all other organisations too—promotion and effective promotion. There are some campaigns that the commissioner's office holds; now, if they're going to continue, then I would want to see it done in far greater partnership with other organisations so that they are more effective. So, I think you understand my train of thought, but I hope that you can understand also, why, at this point, I can't give you a definitive answer to your question. But in considering all questions—. What I hope will drive all decisions is, 'How does this increase the use of the Welsh language?'
Ocê. Gaf i ofyn cwestiwn arall i chi? Dŷn ni wedi cyfarfod o'r blaen mewn sawl ffordd, a thra fy mod i a chi wedi cael swyddi gwahanol yn ystod y blynyddoedd, a dŷn ni fel Cymry Cymraeg yn adnabod ein gilydd mewn sawl ffordd wahanol. Pa fath o dôn y buasech chi'n licio ei mabwysiadu? Achos dŷch chi wedi dweud eich bod chi ddim yn fodlon bod yn bendant amboutu'r blaenoriaethu a'r cydbwysedd rhwng hyrwyddo a rheoleiddio, a dwi'n deall hynny, does gen i ddim issue—
May I ask you another question then? We've met before in many circumstances, and we've discussed things with each other in various roles before, and, as Welsh speakers, we know each other in many different ways. What sort of tone would you like to adopt? Because you've said that you're not willing to be certain about the priorities and the balance between promoting and regulating, and I understand that, I don't have an issue—
Ar y pwynt yma, Alun—
On this point, Alun—
Paid â becso, dwi wedi nodi'r ffaith eich bod chi'n fodlon dod nôl mewn chwe mis. Ond, beth ydy'r dôn y byddech chi'n licio ei mabwysiadu, achos mae'r dôn yn gallu bod yn bwysig o ran y cydweithio rhwng sefydliadau gwahanol?
Don't worry, I've noted the fact that you're willing to come back in six months. But, what sort of tone would you like to adopt, because a tone can be important in terms of working between organisations?
Dwi'n cytuno'n llwyr. I raddau, wrth wneud eich gwaith, dŷch chi ddim yn gallu bod yn ddim byd ond chi eich hun. Fy nynesiad—oes treiglad, dwi ddim yn siŵr—arferol yw bod yn gefnogol a chyfeillgar. Dyw hwnna ddim yn golygu bod yna ddim steely centre, iawn? Ond yn fy mhrofiad i o gydweithio gyda sefydliadau eraill, mae sefydlu cyd-ymddiriedaeth a gweld pa nodau cyffredin rŷch chi'n eu rhannu yn arwain at lawer gwell canlyniadau na phregethu a dweud wrth rywun arall beth i'w wneud. Mae'n dod yn ôl at y syniad yma yng Ngwlad y Basg lle mae pobl eraill yn perchnogi'r prosiectau, neu beth welon ni fanna.
Felly'r dôn yw tôn o gydweithio a chefnogi, ond bod yn gadarn ar yr un pryd. Felly, mae yna dair C fanna, sy'n eithaf neis. Mae pobl fel arfer eisiau gwneud gwaith da, eisiau cynnig gwasanaethau da, ond weithiau, mae angen cymorth arnyn nhw, a byddai'n well gyda fi—dwi'n mynd i roi pedwerydd C i ti—roi cymorth na cherydd. Ond, dwi'n derbyn yn y rôl yma bod yna rôl reoleiddio ac, ar adegau, mae'n briodol rhoi cerydd, ond cyn rhoi’r cerydd, buaswn i’n gobeithio bod y sefydliad sy’n cael y cerydd yn deall yn iawn pam bod y pwynt yna wedi cael ei gyrraedd. Ond nid fy ymateb cyntaf i fel comisiynydd fyddai rhoi cerydd. Felly, ydy hwnna’n ateb dy gwestiwn di?
I agree entirely. To a certain extent, as you undertake your work, you can be no-one but yourself. My approach—I'm not sure of the mutation there, but my usual approach is to be supportive and friendly. That doesn't mean that there isn't a steely centre underneath. But in my experience of working with other organisations, then establishing trust and seeing what common goals you share does lead to far better outcomes than preaching and telling others what to do. It comes back to this idea in the Basque Country where others take ownership of projects.
So, in terms of tone, it is a collaborative and supportive tone, whilst being strong and robust there. People usually want to work well and provide effective services, but sometimes they need support and—I'm going to give you another word here—I would rather provide support than be critical. I accept in this role that there is a regulatory role and, at times, it is appropriate to be critical, but before doing that, I would hope that those being criticised would understand fully why that point has been reached. But my first response as commissioner would not be to be critical. Does that answer your question?
Ydy. Sioned.
It does. Sioned.
Gaf i jest bigo lan yn glou ar hwnna cyn symud, efallai, at gwpl o gwestiynau yn ymwneud â phwysigrwydd annibyniaeth y rôl? Rwyt ti wedi cyffwrdd arno fe'n barod—. A, dwi eisiau ymddiheuro fy mod i’n hwyr; roedd y traffig wedi fy nal. O ran y ddwy swyddogaeth yna, yn derbyn, wrth gwrs, yr egwyddor a’r tôn yma dŷn ni wedi bod yn trafod, o ran ceisio annog yn hytrach na cheryddu ar y pwynt cyntaf, yn amlwg mae gan rôl y comisiynydd ddyletswydd i warchod hawliau, ac i wneud yn siŵr bod pobl yn ufuddhau i’r safonau. Felly, er enghraifft, sut byddech chi’n mynd ati i weithredu’r pwerau yna? Beth yw gwerth y pŵer o ddirwyo, er enghraifft? Rŷch chi’n nodi yn eich papur chi i’r pwyllgor eich bod chi eisiau i sefydliadau fod yn greadigol yn eu dehongliad nhw o’r safonau, ac rŷch chi’n moyn defnyddio'ch pwerau gorfodi yn gadarn ond yn gymesur. Felly, os yw’r un corff yn torri’r un safon dro ar ôl tro, ac wedi sawl ymchwiliad, beth ddylai ddigwydd?
Just to follow up quickly from that before moving to questions regarding the importance of the independence of the role, and you’ve touched on it already—. And, I’d like to apologise for being late, the traffic was terrible. In terms of those two functions, accepting of course the principle and tone that we’ve been discussing in terms of trying to encourage rather than criticise, as the first point. But clearly, the commissioner’s role has a duty to protect rights and to ensure that people do conform to standards. So, for example, how would you implement those powers? What is the value of the power of fining, for example? You note in your paper to the committee that you want organisations to be creative in their interpretation of the standards, and you want to use your enforcement powers robustly but proportionately. So, if one body breaches that standard time after time, what should happen?
Mae’r pwerau gorfodi o ran y symiau ariannol—dŷn nhw ddim yn golygu llawer. Ond, dwi’n meddwl bod yna gamau y mae swyddfa’r comisiynydd—. Dwi ddim chwaith eisiau mynd i lawr y llwybr o gywilyddio sefydliadau o angenrheidrwydd. Mae e llawer yn well cael y sefydliad i newid ei arferion. Nawr, rwy’n derbyn y pwynt rŷch chi’n ei wneud—efallai y bydd yna sefydliad sydd dro ar ôl tro ar ôl tro yn torri’r safon yn fwriadol, ac yn yr achos hwnnw, buaswn i’n barod iawn i ddefnyddio’r holl bwerau, gan gynnwys cyhoeddusrwydd, mae’n siŵr, i sicrhau bod pethau’n newid o fewn y corff yna. Ond dwi’n meddwl bod hwnna’n gam olaf. Ydych chi’n fwy tebygol o berswadio rhywun i newid drwy eu helpu nhw neu'u geryddu? Rŷn ni’n dod yn ôl at yr un pwynt. Ond, mae’r Ddeddf yn un gref, mae’r safonau yna am reswm, ac mae’r pwerau gorfodi yna am reswm.
Mae panel cynghori gan y comisiynydd, a buaswn i’n gobeithio y byddai fe’n cynghori ar ba pwynt y dywedwn ni, ‘Reit, rydyn ni’n defnyddio’r pwerau yma nawr; mae'r sefyllfa wedi cyrraedd mor ddrwg'. Mewn sefyllfaoedd lle dwi wedi bod yn rhan o arolygon o gyrff eraill, dwi wastad wedi meddwl bod yr approach o ‘dim syrpreises’ yn bwysig. Felly, rŷch chi’n rhoi cyfle i’r corff yn gyntaf i sylweddoli ei wendidau ei hun, ond ar ddiwedd y dydd mae yna—. Rŷn ni wedi siarad llawer am bethau ychydig bach yn feddal heddiw, efallai, er eu bod nhw’n bwysig iawn iawn, ond ar ddiwedd y dydd, dyw hynny ddim yn golygu fy mod i ddim yn credu yn y safonau ac yn meddwl eu bod nhw’n hollbwysig, a’u bod nhw wedi arwain at wahaniaeth. Mae fy nhrafodaeth i wedi bod mwy o gwmpas defnyddio'r gwasanaethau yna, efallai. Dwi ddim yn siŵr os mae hynny'n bodloni—
The enforcement powers, in terms of the financial sums involved don’t mean much, but I do think that there are steps that the commissioner’s office—. Neither do I want to go down the route of shaming organisations. It’s far better to get an organisation to change its practice. Now, I accept the point that you make—there may be an organisation that actually doesn’t conform to a standard time and time again, and in that case, I would be more than happy to use all of the powers available, including bringing things into the public domain, I’m sure, to ensure that things change within that organisation. But I do think that that would be a final step. Are you more likely to persuade someone to change by helping them or rebuking them? We’re back to the same point here, but the legislation is clear, the standards are there for a reason, and the regulatory powers are there for a reason.
The commissioner has an advisory panel, and I would hope that that panel could advise as to at which point we use these powers if the position has deteriorated to such an extent. In circumstances where I have been involved with reviews of other organisations, I’ve always thought that the 'no surprises’ approach is important, so you give the organisation an opportunity first to understand its own failings, but at the end of the day—. We’ve discussed a number of softer issues today, and I know that they are very important, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in standards, and don’t believe that they are crucially important, and that they have made a difference. My focus has been more on using those services.
Ydy. I fynd nôl yn gyflym iawn at yr hyn yr oedd Tom yn holi amdano, o ran blaenoriaethau, ac yn mynd nôl at y safonau, pa feysydd o fewn y sector breifat ŷch chi’n teimlo y byddech chi eisiau blaenoriaethu ymhlith ymestyn y safonau iddyn nhw, a pham?
To go back very quickly to what Tom was asking about in terms of priorities and going back to the standards, what areas within the private sector do you feel that you’d like to prioritise in terms of extending the standards to them, and why?
Mae hwnna'n gwestiwn diddorol. Gwnes i ddweud—dyw hwn ddim yn cop-out, ond dwi ddim yn teimlo fel fy mod i’n gwybod digon am beth sy’n bosibl o dan y Ddeddf, sut mae modd ymestyn pethau, i ateb pob cwestiwn yn llawn, ac efallai bod hynny’n un ohonyn nhw. Fodd bynnag, gyda’r sector breifat, mae yna bethau sy’n fwy pwysig na'i gilydd i’r sector breifat eu gwneud, ac mae rhai yn eu gwneud. Dwi’n meddwl, cyn ateb y cwestiwn yn llawn, buaswn i’n hoffi edrych ar enghreifftiau rhyngwladol o sut maen nhw wedi delio â’r sector breifat. Mae yna rai adrannau, rhai cyrff, sydd yn hanner sector breifat a hanner corff cyhoeddus, ac yn y blaen; felly, buaswn i eisiau edrych ar beth sy'n bwysicach, beth mae pobl yn ei ddweud sy'n bwysicach—ai derbyn y bil yn Gymraeg neu ai cael gweithiwr y tŷ sy’n siarad Cymraeg? Felly, mae yna gwestiynau fel yna o amgylch beth fyddai pobl yn hoffi ei gael fel gwasanaethau Cymraeg gan y sector breifat, ac edrych ar beth fyddai’n bosibl ei wneud. Mae’n siŵr bod yna farnau gwahanol yng Nghymru am hynny. Felly, byddwn i am ystyried hynny cyn rhoi ateb pendant i ti.
That's an interesting question. This isn’t a cop-out, but I don’t currently feel that I know enough about what’s possible under the legislation to answer every question in full, and that might be one of them. However, with the private sector, there are things that are perhaps more important than others, and some are already doing them. I think, before answering the question in full, I would like to look at international examples of how they’ve dealt with the private sector. There are some organisations that are partially in the public sector and partially in the private sector, so I would like to look at what’s most important, what people’s priorities are—is it getting the bill in Welsh or getting somebody to do work in the house that’s able to speak Welsh? So there are distinctions there in terms of what people want in terms of Welsh language services from the private sector, and to look at what’s possible, too. I’m sure that there are differing views in Wales on that, so I would like to take account of that, too, before giving you a definitive answer.
Diolch. Jest eisiau gofyn dau gwestiwn cyflym wedyn ynglŷn ag annibyniaeth y rôl. Rydych chi wedi bod yn sôn tipyn bach am bartneriaid a gweithio mewn partneriaeth, ac, wrth gwrs, mae hynny yn hanfodol ac yn gynhyrchiol. Ond, mae rôl y comisiynydd ychydig bach yn wahanol o gymharu â rhai partneriaid eraill ym maes strategaeth y Gymraeg, oherwydd ei annibyniaeth ac o achos natur y swyddogaeth. Felly, pam, yn eich tyb chi, mae rheoleiddio annibynnol oddi ar Lywodraeth y dydd, pa bynnag blaid sydd mewn grym, yn bwysig ym maes y Gymraeg?
Thank you. Just two quick questions, then, regarding the independence of the role. You have mentioned a little bit about partners and working in partnership, and, of course, that is vital and is productive. But, the role of the commissioner is slightly different compared to some other partners in the Welsh language strategy area, because of its independence and the nature of the function. So, why is regulation that is independent of the Government of the day, whatever party is in power, important in the area of the Welsh language?
Mae'r Mesur iaith yn diogelu annibyniaeth y comisiynydd. Mae'r ffaith bod y rôl am saith mlynedd, mewn ffordd, yn gwneud yn siŵr eich bod chi'n teimlo rhyddid i wneud beth rŷch chi'n meddwl sy'n iawn. Buaswn i am ddatblygu fy llais annibynnol fel comisiynydd, a dwi ddim yn meddwl y buaswn i'n ofn unrhyw blaid sydd mewn grym, neu fel arall. Mae angen i'r comisiynydd ddod i'w gasgliadau ei hun ar faterion, o edrych ar y dystiolaeth i gyd, a dwi ddim yn meddwl y buaswn i'n poeni am—. Mae'r Ddeddf ei hun yn sefydlu'r annibyniaeth yna. Dyw e ddim yn hollol, hollol annibynnol, achos mae'n ddibynnol ar arian gan Lywodraeth y dydd i weithredu. Ond, a oes unrhyw yn yr holl fyd sy'n hollol annibynnol? Nac oes, ond mae'r Ddeddf yn cadarnhau'r annibyniaeth, yn cadarnhau'r rôl, yn gorfodi Gweinidogion i wrando ar beth sydd gan y comisiynydd i ddweud, ac mae'n rhoi pwerau iddo fe. Buaswn i am edrych ar a ydy'r comisiynydd yn defnyddio'r holl bwerau yna i'w llawn botensial nawr, ac a ydy e'n defnyddio'r holl gymalau sydd yn y Mesur nawr i'w llawn botensial, sy'n cynnwys mwy, wrth gwrs, na dim ond gosod y safonau yn unig.
The Welsh language Measure safeguards the independence of the commissioner. The fact that the role is undertaken over a period of seven years does ensure that you do feel that freedom to do what you believe is right. I would like to develop my independent voice as commissioner, and I don't think I would fear any party, be they in power or not in power. The commissioner needs to come to his or her own conclusions on issues, having looked at all of the evidence, and I don't think that I would be overly concerned—. The legislation itself establishes that independence. It's not entirely independent because, of course, it is funded by the Government of the day. But, is there anyone on the globe that's entirely independent? I think not, but the legislation does guarantee that independence, guarantees the role, and requires Ministers to listen to what the commissioner has to say, and it provides the commissioner with powers. I would want to look at whether the commissioner is using all of those powers to their full potential now, and whether the commissioner is using all of the clauses in the Measure to their full potential, which includes more, of course, than simply imposing standards.
Ie, efallai un agwedd ar y rôl, yn amlwg, lle mae'r annibyniaeth yna'n bwysig o ran y swyddogaethau yw'r safonau. A ydych chi'n cytuno bod angen rhaniad clir rhwng cyfrifoldebau'r gwasanaeth sifil a Gweinidogion Llywodraeth Cymru yn hynny o beth—sy'n gyfrifol am lunio'r safonau, wrth gwrs—â'r comisiynydd a'i staff sy'n gyfrifol am osod a gorfodi'r safonau hynny?
Perhaps one aspect of the role, clearly, where that independence is important in terms of the functions is the standards. Do you agree that there's a need for a clear division between responsibilities of the civil service and Ministers of Welsh Government in that regard—who are responsible for drawing up the standards—and the commissioner and staff who are responsible for enforcing the standards?
Mae hwnna wedi'i wreiddio yn y Mesur a'r cyfrifoldebau, onid e? Mae yna gwestiwn hefyd o fewn swyddfa'r comisiynydd p' un a ydy'r comisiynydd yn gallu cefnogi, hyrwyddo a rheoleiddio. Felly, efallai byddai angen sefydlu strwythurau sy'n cadw'r ddau beth ychydig bach ar wahân o fewn swyddfa'r comisiynydd, o bosibl. Dwi ddim yn gwybod a ydyn nhw'n ei wneud e ar hyn o bryd; mae rhywfaint o hwn yn dod o'r ffaith fy mod i ddim, yn amlwg, yn adnabod gwaith y swyddfa eto. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae staff yn gallu symud o le i le, felly nid am unigolion rŷm ni'n sôn, ond am y swyddogaethau.
That is rooted in the Measure and the responsibilities. There is a question also within the commissioner's office whether the commissioner can support, promote and regulate. There may be a need to create structures that would keep them all separate within the commissioner's office. I don't know if they're doing it currently; some of this comes from the fact that, clearly, I'm not familiar with the work of the office at the moment. But, of course, staff can move from place to place, so we're not talking about individuals, but the functions.
Ie, ac yn hynny o beth, jest i fynd yn ôl at y cwestiynau am adnoddau, er mwyn rhoi'r cyfle i chi gael e ar y record, am wn i, dŷch chi ddim eisiau gweld unrhyw leihau, ac o bosibl, eisiau gweld ehangu ar staff y swyddfa yn hynny o beth.
In that regard, just to go back to that question regarding resources, and to give you an opportunity to put it on the record, you don't want to see any reduction, or possibly want to see an expansion of the staff in the office in that regard.
Rwy'n meddwl fy mod i wedi awgrymu fy mod i ddim yn fodlon—. Buaswn i ddim yn fodlon cadarnhau fy mod i'n hapus gyda'r setliad ariannol ar hyn o bryd. Ydym, rŷm ni mewn amser o gyni ariannol, a dwi'n deall hynny, ond dwi hefyd yn deall bod yna rai pethau sy'n bwysig iawn buddsoddi ynddyn nhw os ŷm ni am sicrhau dyfodol ffyniannus i'r Gymraeg a gwarchod hawliau pobl. Yr unig beth y buaswn i'n ei ddweud yw, yn fy swyddi blaenorol, dwi wedi gallu denu arian ychwanegol i'r Gymraeg, a buaswn i'n trio gwneud hynny yn y swydd yma hefyd ar sail tystiolaeth a gwybodaeth am angen, a chyflwyno syniadau synhwyrol am beth fyddai'n fuddiol buddsoddi ynddo fe, nid oherwydd fy mod i jest eisiau mwy o arian. Byddwn i'n gobeithio, pe byddai swyddfa'r comisiynydd yn cyflwyno syniadau a chynlluniau, y byddai'r Llywodraeth yn gallu buddsoddi ynddyn nhw. Mae hynny yn rhywbeth y byddwn i'n hoffi edrych arno fe dros amser, yn sicr.
I think I've suggested that I'm not willing—. I wouldn't be content to confirm that I'm happy with the financial settlement currently. Yes, we are in a time of financial austerity, and I understand that, but I also understand that there are some things that are very important and need to be invested in to ensure a successful future for the Welsh language and to safeguard people's rights. The only thing that I would say is that in my previous posts, I have been able to attract funding for the Welsh language, and I would try and do that in this post as well on the basis of evidence and information about need and demand, and introducing sensible ideas regarding what would be beneficial to invest in, not just because I'd want more money. But, I would hope that, if the commissioner's office presented ideas and plans that the Government would be able to invest in, then that is something that I'd like to look at over a period of time, certainly.
Diolch. Diolch, Gadeirydd.
Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
Efallai jest i ddod nôl at y pwynt, nid o angenrheidrwydd mwy o staff bob amser, ond cyllideb i gynnal ymgyrchoedd ac i wneud pethau hefyd.
Maybe just to come back to the point, not necessarily more staff, but a budget to draw up campaigns and other issues as well.
Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi. Dwi'n edrych ar Aelodau—a oes gennych chi unrhyw gwestiynau ychwanegol? Dwi'n edrych arnat ti, Hefin, draw yn Nelson. Ydych chi'n fodlon? Ocê. Diolch yn fawr. Diolch am eich amser, Efa, y bore yma. Dwi'n gwerthfawrogi dy barodrwydd i ateb cwestiynau'n llawn ac i gynnal y drafodaeth yma gyda ni. Mi fyddwn ni'n trafod y sesiwn, wrth gwrs, yn breifat, ac wedyn yn ysgrifennu at y Gweinidog. A dwi'n ddiolchgar iawn i chi am hynny. Oes rhywbeth rydych chi eisiau ei ychwanegu cyn fy mod i'n dod â'r sesiwn i ben?
Thank you very much. I'm looking to Members—are there any additional questions that you'd like to ask? I'm looking at you, Hefin, over in Nelson. Are you content? Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you for your time this morning, Efa. I do appreciate your willingness to answer our questions in full and to have a discussion with us. And we will discuss the session in private, and then we will write to the Minister. And I am very grateful to you for your time. If there is anything you want to add before I draw the session to a close, you're welcome to do so.
Na, jest dwi'n falch iawn eich bod chi'n cymryd cymaint o ddiddordeb yn y Gymraeg, a phob hwyl i chi gyda'r holl waith pwysig rydych chi'n ei wneud.
No, I'm just delighted that you are taking such a great interest in the Welsh language, and all the best with all the important work that you do.
Diolch yn fawr i chi.
Thank you very much.
Cynnig:
bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o eitem 4, 7 ac 8 y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(ix).
Motion:
that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the items 4, 7 and 8 of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix).
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Os felly, licen i ofyn i'r Aelodau, a ydych chi'n fodlon, o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42, i wahardd y cyhoedd o'r eitem nesaf, sef eitem 4, ac wedyn 7 ac 8 y cyfarfod heddiw? Ydych chi'n fodlon â hynny? Rwy'n gweld bod Aelodau yn fodlon, ac felly mi fyddwn ni'n symud mewn i sesiwn breifat.
Therefore, I would ask Members if you're content that, under Standing Order 17.42, we resolve to exclude the public from the next item, item 4, and items 7 and 8 of the meeting today? Are you content with that? I see that Members are content, and therefore we will move into private session.
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 10:16.
Motion agreed.
The public part of the meeting ended at 10:16.
Ailymgynullodd y pwyllgor yn gyhoeddus am 10:53.
The committee reconvened in public at 10:53.
Bore da. Croeso nôl i'r sesiwn yma o'r pwyllgor y bore yma. Dŷn ni'n symud yn syth at eitem 5, ond, cyn inni wneud hwnna, buaswn i'n hoffi diolch i Alun Davies am gadeirio'r pwyllgor y bore yma, a buaswn i hefyd yn hoffi croesawu Sioned Williams a Buffy Williams. Dŷn ni yn cynnal cyfarfod ar y cyd, neu ymchwiliad ar y cyd, gyda'r Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg. Mae'r ymchwiliad yma i mewn i gynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg. Dŷn ni'n edrych ar sesiwn dystiolaeth bore yma gyda'r blynyddoedd cynnar cyfrwng Cymraeg, darpariaeth ôl-16 ac oedolion sy'n ddysgwyr. Felly, gwnaf i ofyn, yn y sesiwn yma, i'r tystion gyflwyno eu hunain ar gyfer y record. Gwnaf i fynd at Dafydd yn gyntaf.
Good morning. Welcome back to this session of the committee this morning. We move straight into item 5, but, before we do so, I'd like to thank Alun Davies for chairing the committee this morning, and I'd also like to welcome Sioned Williams and Buffy Williams to the meeting. We are holding this meeting as a joint committee, or joint inquiry, with the Children, Young People, and Education Committee. This is an inquiry into the Welsh in education strategic plans, and this is an evidence session with Welsh-medium early years, post-16 and adult learner provision. So, I'll ask, in this session, the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record. I'll go to Dafydd first.
Bore da. Sut mae? Dafydd Trystan ydw i. Fi yw cofrestrydd y Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol.
Good morning. I'm Dafydd Trystan. I'm the registrar and senior academic manager of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol.
Diolch, Dafydd. Gwnaf i ofyn i Aled, ar y sgrin, i gyflwyno'i hunan.
Thank you, Dafydd. I'll ask Aled, on the screen, to introduce himself.
Bore da. Aled Jones-Griffith, pennaeth Coleg Menai a Choleg Meirion-Dwyfor, ond yn cynrychioli ColegauCymru heddiw yma.
Good morning. Aled Jones-Griffith, principal of Coleg Menai and Coleg Meirion-Dwyfor, representing CollegesWales today.
Diolch, Aled. Ac Angharad.
Thank you, Aled. And Angharad.
Angharad Morgan, a dwi yn rheolwr polisi i Mudiad Meithrin.
Angharad Morgan, and I am policy manager with Mudiad Meithrin.
Diolch. Mae'n hyfryd i'ch cael chi i gyd gyda ni'r bore yma. Gaf i ofyn yn gyntaf—gwnawn ni fynd yn syth at gwestiynau—ydy awdurdodau lleol wedi derbyn y fframwaith WESPs, ac a oes yna unrhyw newid mewn diwylliant wedi digwydd fel canlyniad? Nawr, does dim rhaid i bawb ateb pob cwestiwn, gyda llaw. Os dŷch chi eisiau ateb, gwnaf i edrych arnoch chi ar eich sgrin—croeso ichi roi eich llaw i fyny os dŷch chi eisiau ateb unrhyw un o'r cwestiynau. A dwi ddim yn gweld unrhyw un. Dafydd, ydych chi eisiau mynd yn gyntaf?
Thank you. It's great to have you all with us this morning. May I ask first of all, as we go straight into questions: have local authorities received the WESPs framework, and has there been a culture change as a result? Everybody doesn't have to answer every question, but if you want to respond, I'll see you on your screen, and you're welcome to raise your hand if you want to answer a question. And I don't see anyone. Dafydd, would you like to go first?
Wel, hynny yw, mae'n gwestiwn da iawn. Sut mae newid diwylliant awdurdodau lleol yn gyffredinol? Heb sôn am yng nghyd-destun y WESPs, mae hynny’n her. Mae e’n cymryd strategaeth gyfannol sylweddol gan y Llywodraeth, a hyd yn hyn mae yna arwyddion o gynnydd. Dwi’n deall bod y WESPs, ar eu ffurf newydd, yn llawer mwy cynlluniedig ac yn symud ymlaen na’r rhai blaenorol. Y cwestiwn, dwi’n credu, i chi ac i ni sy’n gweithio yn y maes yw: beth sy’n digwydd pan fo WESP yn bwrw lan yn erbyn blaenoriaethau eraill gan gyngor lleol pan fo yna gynlluniau eithaf uchelgeisiol wedi eu nodi neu wedi eu datgan, efallai gan Weinidog neu gan aelod o’r cabinet, ac wedyn bod y ffrâm gyffredinol honno, o ran sicrhau bod yna adnoddau priodol mewn lleol, fod yna weithlu addas i staffio’r ysgolion yma—ydy hynny i gyd mewn lle? Dwi’n credu ei bod hi’n deg dweud, 'the jury’s out' ar hyn o bryd ar y cwestiwn yna. Hynny yw, dwi ddim wedi gweld y newid diwylliant yna mewn awdurdodau lleol eto.
Well, it's a very good question Well, it's a very good question. How do you change culture within local authorities in general? Never mind the context of the WESPs, that's a challenge. It takes an all-encompassing strategy from Government, and to date there are signs of progress. I understand that the WESPs, in their new format, are far better planned and progressive than previous WESPs. I think the question for you and for us working in this area is: what happens when the WESP hits up against other priorities in a local authority when there are ambitious plans set out, perhaps by a Minister or a member of the cabinet, and then that the general framework, in ensuring that there are appropriate resources in place, that there is an appropriate workforce to staff these schools—is all of that in place? I think it's fair to say that the jury's out at the moment on that question. I haven't seen that change of culture within local authorities as of yet.
Ocê. Dwi'n meddwl bod Alun Davies eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn, ac wedyn mi wnaf i fynd at Angharad. Ond, Alun.
Okay. I think Alun Davies wanted to come in at this point, and then I'll go to Angharad. Alun.
Dafydd, dych chi’n gofyn cwestiynau mwy diddorol nag ydyn ni’n eu gofyn. So, beth ydy'r ateb i’ch cwestiwn chi? Rydych chi’n dweud 'the jury's out'—digon teg. Mae yna reswm pam rwyt ti wedi dweud hynny, mae’n amlwg. Beth yw'r rheswm, a beth rwyt ti'n meddwl mae’r jury yn mynd i ffeindio pan fydd yn dychwelyd?
Dafydd, you ask more interesting questions than we're asking. So, what is the answer to your own question? You say 'the jury's out'—fair enough. There's a reason why you've said that, clearly. What is the reason, and what do you think the jury's going to find when it returns?
Os rŷn ni'n edrych yn benodol iawn ar WESPs, dwi'n credu beth welwn ni yw bod yna gynghorau lleol sy'n mynd i wneud cam ymlaen yn ystod y cyfnod nesaf. Dwi’n edrych i mewn i ryw fath belen grisial nawr, felly peidiwch â fy nal i. Ond os ŷch chi’n gofyn i fi edrych i’r belen grisial yna, dwi’n credu, ymhen tair i bum mlynedd, fe fydd yna heriau. Bydd yr heriau gweithlu yn dod yn amlycach. Os ydyn ni wir yn sôn am ychwanegu 5 y cant i 10 y cant i’r niferoedd sydd mewn ysgolion Cymraeg, mae angen staff ac athrawon i wneud hynny ac, ar hyn o bryd, mae nifer yr athrawon sy’n cael eu hyfforddi yng Nghymru yn fflat, i addysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae angen twf sylweddol yn fanna, ac felly dwi’n credu 'the jury’s out'. Yr hyn y byddwn i’n dymuno ei weld yw agwedd Llywodraeth-gyfan i daclo’r pethau yma, gan gynnwys y gweithlu ac, wrth gwrs, maes o law, gan gynnwys dilyniant o’r sector meithrin i ysgolion, ac mae’n siŵr bydd gan Angharad sylw ar hynny, ond, yn yr un modd, dilyniant o’r sector ysgolion i’r sector ôl-16, a dyna’r gwaith dyn ni’n gweithio gydag Aled a chyfeillion arno ar hynny. So, ie.
If we look very specifically at WESPs, I think what we'll find is that there are local authorities that will make progress in the next period. I'm looking into some sort of crystal ball now, so don't hold me to this. But if you're asking me to look into that crystal ball, I think, in three to five years' time, the workforce challenges will become more prominent. If we really are talking about adding 5 per cent to 10 per cent to the numbers in Welsh-medium schools, you need the staff and teachers to do that, and, at the moment, the number of teachers being trained in Wales is flatlining, in terms of educating through the medium of Welsh. We need growth there, and, therefore, the jury is out. And what I would like to see is a whole-Government approach to tackling these issues, including the workforce and, in due time, progression from the nursery sector into schools, and I'm sure Angharad will have a comment on that, but also that continuity from schools to the post-16 sector, and that's the work we're doing with Aled and colleagues on that. So, yes.
Diolch.
Thank you.
Ocê, diolch am hynny. Mi wnawn ni fynd at Angharad.
Okay, thank you for that. We'll go to Angharad.
Diolch, Dafydd. Dwi’n credu un o’r pethau mae angen ei bwysleisio ydy’r angen i gydlynu’r gwaith a chydweithio ar draws y sectorau. Gan ein bod ni’n edrych ar ymestyn nifer y plant sydd yn mynychu addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, mae angen hefyd ystyried sut mae’r plant yma’n cyrraedd yr addysg yna ar y cychwyn cyntaf, a hefyd sut dŷn ni’n cefnogi’r plant a’r teuluoedd yna i gadw’r plant yna yn y gyfundrefn addysg Cymraeg ar hyd eu hystod addysg drwy’r system TGAU, lefel A ac yna i’r prifysgolion.
Mae Dafydd wedi sôn hefyd amboutu heriau staffio. Os dŷn ni ddim yn cadw’r unigolion yna yn y system addysg Gymraeg hyd ddiwedd eu cyfnod addysg, mae’r her o staffio'r sector addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn mynd yn fwy byth, achos heb fod y plant fydd yn y system addysg ar hyn o bryd yn parhau i ddatblygu eu sgiliau nhw yn y Gymraeg, yn ogystal â’r sgiliau proffesiynol ac academaidd, ac yn dod yn ôl fel rhan o’r gweithlu addysg a gofal blynyddoedd cynnar hefyd, yna mae’r heriau sydd o’n blaenau ni o ran cynyddu nifer y staff sydd gyda ni yn y sector yna yn cynyddu wrth fod y targedau blynyddol yna yn cynyddu hefyd.
Dwi'n credu beth dŷn ni’n ei weld fel mudiad, o ran cydweithio llawr gwlad, ydy, fel roedd Dafydd yn sôn, bod yna wahaniaethau o ran beth sydd yn digwydd ar lawr gwlad, beth sydd yn bosib mewn ambell i ardal o ran beth ydy natur ddaearyddol yr ysgolion ar hyn o bryd, sut mae’r teuluoedd yn cyrraedd yr ysgolion yna, ac mae angen cydweithio ar draws adrannau awdurdodau lleol ac adrannau Llywodraeth Cymru i sicrhau bod mynediad a’r holl ystyriaethau yna yn cael eu hystyried fel rhan o’r CSCAau ac wrth ddatblygu’r system addysg Gymraeg ar draws Cymru.
Thank you, Dafydd. I think one of the things that we need to emphasise is the need to co-ordinate the work and work jointly across the sectors. As we're looking at expanding the number of children who attend Welsh-medium education, you also have to consider how these children reach that education at the very beginning, and also how do we support those children and families to keep those children in the Welsh-medium education system throughout their education, through the GCSE system, A-levels and then to universities.
Dafydd has also mentioned the staffing challenges. If we don't keep those individuals in the Welsh-medium system until the end of their education career, the challenge of staffing the Welsh-medium sector is going to get bigger and bigger, because without the children who are in current Welsh-medium sector continuing to develop their skills in the Welsh language, as well as the professional skills and academic skills, and returning as part of the education and early years care workforce, then the challenges that we're facing in terms of increasing staff numbers in that sector also increase as those annual targets increase as well.
I think what we're seeing as an organisation, in terms of grass-roots co-operation, as Dafydd mentioned, is that there are differences in terms of what is happening at a grass-roots level, what is possible in some areas in terms of the geographical nature of schools currently, how families get to school, and there is a need for joint working across local authority departments and Welsh Government departments to ensure that access and all those considerations are considered as part of the WESPs and in the development of Welsh-medium education across Wales.
Diolch, Angharad. Aled.
Thank you, Angharad. Aled.
Dwi'n meddwl bod y pwynt roedd Angharad yn gwneud yn fanna'n bwysig hefyd, o ran sut mae rhywun yn edrych ar ddysgu gydol oes, ac yn edrych ar yr ystod oedran. Mae'r WESPs yn statudol yn edrych ar yr oedran addysg statudol, ond, fel mae Dafydd wedi cyfeirio ato fo, mae'r ôl-16 yn cyfrannu i hynny yn sicr, ac mae yna gyfeiriad yn rhai o'r WESPs tuag at beth mae awdurdodau yn edrych arno fo yn yr ysgolion, ond dim llawer o gyfeiriad yn y WESPs, yn ein hardal ni beth bynnag, o beth ydy rôl a chyfraniad y sector addysg bellach i hynny. Ac fel mae Angharad yn dweud, dwi'n meddwl bod angen i ni edrych ar y daith ieithyddol o bedair i 18 yn hytrach nag o bedair i 16. Ac mae prentisiaethau a ballu yn dod o rhan o hynny hefyd.
Dwi'n meddwl hefyd mai'r her sydd yn wynebu'r sector gynradd, uwchradd, ac ôl-16 ydy cael staff Cymraeg i ddarparu, ac, fel roedd Dafydd ac Angharad yn nodi yn fanna, dŷn ni fel sector wedi bod yn ffodus iawn i allu prynu mewn i'r cynllun Cymraeg Gwaith, sydd wedi cael ei redeg ers 2017, ac efallai fod y pwyllgor angen edrych ac ystyried oes modd rhoid hwnna ar ryw fath o seiliau mwy cadarn a mwy parhaol i'r hir dymor, fel bod addysg ôl-16 trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn gallu cael ei gynllunio fel rhan o'r WESP mewn perthynas efo consortia lleol.
I think the point that Angharad made is important in terms of how one looks at lifelong learning and looks at the age range that the WESP covers. It covers statutory education, and, as Dafydd mentioned, the post-16 contributes to that, and there is reference in some of the WEPSs towards what local authorities are looking at in school, but there isn't much reference in the WESPs, in our area anyway, as to the role and contribution of the FE sector in that. And as Angharad has said, I think we need to look at the linguistic journey from four to 18 rather than from four to 16. And apprenticeships become part of that too.
I also think that the challenge facing the primary, secondary, and post-16 sector is to get Welsh-medium staff to provide education, and, as Dafydd and Angharad mentioned there, we've been very fortunate as a sector to buy into the Cymraeg Gwaith programme that's been in place since 2017. So, the committee may need to consider whether that could be put on more robust foundations, or more permanent foundations for the longer term, so that post-16 Welsh-medium education could be planned as part of the WESPs in collaboration with the local consortia.
Diolch i chi i gyd am hynna. Mae nifer o'r pynciau dŷch chi wedi cyffwrdd arnyn nhw yn mynd i fod yn bethau y byddwn ni'n edrych mewn mwy o fanylder arnyn nhw yn ein cwestiynau. Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Heledd Fychan.
Thank you to you all for that. A number of subjects that you've touched upon are things that we'll be looking at in more detail in our questions. We'll move on to Heledd Fychan.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. Bore da. Diolch am ymuno efo ni heddiw. Dŷch chi wedi cyffwrdd ar hyn yn eich ymateb cyntaf, ond rôn i eisiau gofyn yn benodol os dŷch chi'n credu bod fframwaith deddfwriaethol a pholisi presennol y cynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg yn darparu'r model mwyaf effeithiol i gyflawni targedau Cymraeg 2050.
Thank you, Chair. Good morning and thank you for joining us today. You've touched on this in your first response, but I wanted to ask specifically whether you believe that the current legislative and policy framework of the WESPs provides that effective model to deliver the Cymraeg 2050 targets.
Aled.
Petaswn i'n bod yn gwbl onest, Heledd, dwi ddim yn meddwl ei fod o. Mae'r fframwaith yn dweud y dylai awdurdodau ymgynghori efo'r sector addysg bellach, ond dydy o ddim yn gosod gorfodaeth. A mae gynnon ni enghreifftiau fel ColegauCymru lle mae yna rai esiamplau lle mae yna awdurdodau lleol yn cyfathrebu ac yn ymgynghori yn dda iawn ar y WESPs, ac mae yna enghreifftiau lle nad oes yna ddim ymgynghori o gwbl yn digwydd. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod angen edrych ar beth ydy'r fframwaith a beth ydy'r disgwyliad, fel bod yna statud yn dweud bod rhaid cynnwys yr holl ddarparwyr, gan gynnwys o'r meithrin i'r uwchradd, i'r ôl-16, a hefyd brifysgolion, achos os ydyn ni'n edrych ar y continwwm o gyrraedd y miliwn erbyn 2050, dwi'n meddwl bod rhaid i ni edrych ar bob sector yn y sector addysg. Dŷn ni'n gweithio'n agos efo'r coleg Cymraeg i sicrhau bod yna ddarpariaeth uwchradd, darpariaeth addysg bellach ac addysg uwch yn cael ei darparu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg mewn sectorau penodol, ond dydy hynny ddim yn cael ei ddal mewn WESPs oherwydd ei fod o ddim ond yn edrych ar oedran statudol hyd at 16 ac mewn ysgolion ôl-16, yn hytrach na'r holl ddarpariaeth ôl-16.
If I'm being entirely honest, Heledd, I don't think it does. The framework states that local authorities should consult with the FE sector, but there is no requirement to do so. And we have examples as CollegesWales where there are some local authorities that do communicate and consult very effectively on the WESPs, and there are examples where there is no consultation at all. So, I do think that we need to look at what the framework is and what the expectations are, so that there's a statute that says that all providers must be included, from early years to secondary, including post-16 and, indeed, universities, because if we look at the continuum in reaching a million Welsh speakers by 2050, then we have to consider all sectors in education. We work very closely with the coleg Cymraeg to ensure that there is FE and HE provision provided through the medium of Welsh in specific sectors, but that isn't captured in the WESPs because it only looks at the statutory age up to 16 and in schools post 16, rather than the whole post-16 provision.
Diolch. Mi wnaf i ddod â Dafydd i mewn, ac wedyn Angharad.
Thank you. I'll bring Dafydd in, and then Angharad.
Wrth gwrs, mae ateb Aled a'r cwestiwn yn berthnasol iawn i fwriad y Llywodraeth i gyflwyno Deddf addysg Gymraeg yn ystod y blynyddoedd nesaf. Mae e'n bur amlwg—ac i borthi yr hyn roedd Aled yn dweud yn fanna—fod angen cyllun gydol oes ar gyfer addysg er mwyn symud ymlaen, a bod hynny ar sail statudol. Felly, buaswn i'n gobeithio bod hynny'n rhan o gynllunio Llywodraeth Cymru wrth symud tuag at Ddeddf addysg Gymraeg, yn ogystal â chanolbwyntio'n glir iawn ar yr heriau yna o ran y gweithlu.
Aled's answer and the question is very relevant to the Government's intention to introduce a Welsh language Act in the next few years. It is quite clear—and to echo what Aled was saying there—that there is a need for a lifelong plan for education in order to move forward, and that that is on a statutory basis. Therefore, I would hope that that is part of the Government's planning in moving towards a Welsh language Act, as well as concentrating very clearly on those challenges in terms of the workforce.
Diolch, Dafydd. Angharad.
Thank you, Dafydd. Angharad.
Diolch. Dwi'n credu, i ategu beth sydd wedi cael ei ddweud yn barod, un o'r heriau sydd gyda ni, er bod yna darged yn y CSCAau newydd sy'n cyfeirio'n benodol at y blynyddoedd cynnar nad oedd yna ynghynt, yw'r ffaith bod yna ganfyddiad bod yna wahaniaeth rhwng y sector gofal cyn-ysgol ac addysg cyn-ysgol. A'r pwynt dŷn ni'n trio ei wneud fel mudiad, ac fel mudiadau gofal plant Cwlwm yn gyffredinol, ydy'r ffaith, pan fydd plant yna, dydyn nhw ddim yn gwahaniaethu rhwng y gofal a'r addysg maen nhw'n cael cyn cyrraedd y system addysg statudol. A gan nad oes yna gynllun penodol o ran cynyddu'r—. Mae'r cynllun SAS, sydd yn cael ei ariannu drwon ni gan Lywodraeth Cymru, yn anelu i gynyddu nifer y cylchoedd meithrin ar lawr gwlad dros y blynyddoedd nesaf, a'r her ydy sicrhau bod yr awdurdodau lleol yn gweld hynny yn rhan o ddatblygu'r CSCAau ac yn bwydo hynny i mewn, ac nad yw jest yn cael ei weld fel rhywbeth fydd yn rhan o'r sector gofal, nid yr addysg gynnar yna sy'n rhan o'r sector hefyd.
Thank you. To echo what's already been said, one of the challenges we have, although there is now a target in the new WESPs that refers specifically to early years, is the fact that there is a perception that there is a difference between the pre-school care and education sectors. And the point that we're making as an organisation, and as Cwlwm in general, is the fact that those children don't differentiate between the care and the education that they receive before they get into the statutory education system. And as there is no specific plan in place—. We have the Set Up and Succeed scheme, which is funded through us through the Welsh Government, which aims to increase the number of cylchoedd meithrin over the next few years, and the challenge is to ensure that local authorities see that as part of developing the WESPs and that they feed that in, so that it's not just seen as something that's part of the care sector, rather than being the early years education that's part of the sector too.
Heledd.
Ia. Os caf i ofyn, felly, Angharad, a fedrwch chi ymhelaethu ymhellach ar hynny? Beth fyddech chi'n hoffi gweld, yn benodol, y Llywodraeth yn gwneud i sicrhau hynny? Yn amlwg, o ran y cynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg ar y funud, mae'n amrywio o awdurdod lleol i awdurdod lleol hefyd.
If I could ask, therefore, Angharad, could you further expand on that? What would you like to see, specifically, the Government doing to ensure that? Clearly, in terms of the WESPs currently, it varies from authority to authority.
Dwi'n credu, Heledd, mai un o'r pwyntiau y mae angen ei wneud yw bod angen ystyried y blynyddoedd cynnar yn benodol a'r gofal maen nhw'n cael cyn cyrraedd y byd addysg. Ar hyn o bryd, mae addysg led ffurfiol, ar bapur, yn cychwyn gyda'r arian addysg tair oed. Felly, mae'r holl addysg a'r holl gyfundrefn cyn tair oed, cyn y tymor ar ôl pen-blwydd y plentyn yn dair oed, yn dod o dan y sector a'r gofynion gofal, sy'n cael ei arolygu gan AGC, yn hytrach nag Estyn. Dwi'n credu mai beth buaswn i'n hoffi gweld yw bod y gwaith yna'n dod at ei gilydd, a bod yr anghenion o ran datblygu gofal ac argaeledd gofal cyfrwng Cymraeg yn cael eu hystyried fel rhan o gynllunio’r CSCAau, gan roi ystyriaeth benodol i’r blynyddoedd cynnar, wedyn, wrth symud ymlaen at y Bil addysg Gymraeg arfaethedig hefyd. Mae’n rhaid gweld yr holl beth, fel yr oedd Aled yn sôn ynghynt—. Un continwwm ydy’r holl beth o ran datblygiad iaith y plentyn.
Hefyd, dydy teuluoedd ddim yn gwahaniaethu rhwng addysg a gofal yn y blynyddoedd cynnar. Dydy’r gwahaniaeth ar hyn o bryd sydd ar bapur rhwng y ddau fath o ddarpariaeth ddim wir yn bodoli ar lawr gwlad i’r teuluoedd yna.
I think, Heledd, that one of the points that needs to be made is that you need to consider the early years specifically and the care that they receive before entering education. At the moment, formal education begins at three years of age. So, the whole system before that age is captured in the care sector, which is overseen by CIW, not by Estyn. What I would like to see is that all of that should come together, and that the availability of care through the medium of Welsh is considered as part of the WESP planning, with particular consideration then given to the early years in moving forward to the Welsh education Bill too. As Aled mentioned earlier, this is all one continuum in terms of the linguistic development of the child.
Also, families don't differentiate between education and care in the early years. The difference on paper at the moment between the two kinds of provision doesn't truly exist for families.
Diolch, Angharad, am ymhelaethu efo hynny. A gaf i fynd ymlaen at gwestian arall i'r tri ohonoch chi, os gwelwch yn dda—sef cyfle i chi sôn wrthym ni am ba fesurau ychwanegol, os o gwbl, dŷch chi'n meddwl y gellid eu defnyddio i wella neu ddiwygio'r fframwaith presennol, boed yn rhai deddfwriaethol neu'n rhai polisi, i sicrhau bod uchelgeisiau a thargedau Cymraeg 2050 yn cael eu cyflawni'n lleol?
Thank you, Angharad, for expanding on that. May I go on to another question to the three of you, please—just an opportunity for you to talk to us about what additional measures, if any, you think could be used to improve or amend the current framework, whether they be legislative or policy measures, to ensure that the ambitions and targets of Cymraeg 2050 are delivered locally?
Wel, dwi’n credu ein bod ni wedi cyfeirio’n barod at yr angen i gynllunio gydol oes, ac felly mae angen i gynlluniau’r Gymraeg mewn addysg ymwneud â’r cyfnod cyn-statudol a’r cyfnod ôl-statudol, a thynnu’r rheini at ei gilydd. Fel mae Aled wedi cyfeirio’n benodol iawn, mae angen i hynny ddigwydd ym mhob awdurdod lleol. Mae yna enghraifft nodedig, mewn gwirionedd, yng Nghasnewydd, 'o bobman', lle maen nhw wedi bod yn cynllunio’n effeithiol iawn gyda’r coleg trydyddol lleol a’r ysgolion lleol. Felly mae’n bosibl i’w wneud, ond nid ym mhobman, ac felly mae angen ystyried hynny yn y cyd-destun deddfwriaethol.
Yr un diddorol wnaf i daflu allan yna am eiliad, o ran a ydy hwn yn bolisi neu’n ddeddfwriaeth, yw sut mae modd taclo’r heriau o ran y gweithlu. Rŷm ni’n gwybod bod her gweithlu ar yr ochr feithrin, yn y colegau, ac yn enwedig yn yr ysgolion. A ydy hynny angen cyfrifoldebau deddfwriaethol, neu a yw’n fater o ddatblygu polisi mwy strategol i fynd â’r maen i’r wal yn yr achos hynny?
Well, we've already referred to lifelong education planning, and, therefore, the WESPs need to deal with the pre-statutory and post-statutory sectors, and to bring those together. As Aled has mentioned, it needs to happen in every local authority. There is a notable example in Newport, 'of all places', where they have been planning very effectively with the local tertiary college and with local schools. So, it can be done, but it's not being done everywhere, and that needs to be considered in the legislative context.
The one interesting thing that I'll throw out there for a second, in terms of whether it's policy or whether it's legislation, is how you can tackle the workforce challenges. We know that there are challenges in the nursery sector, in colleges, and particularly in schools. So, does that require legislative intervention, or is it a matter of developing more strategic policy in order to achieve objectives in that area?
Dwi'n meddwl bod Alun eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn.
I think Alun wants to come in at this point.
Mae'n flin gen i ddweud hyn, Dafydd, ond rwyt ti wedi dweud rhywbeth diddorol.
I'm sorry to have to say this, Dafydd, but you've said something interesting.
Am unwaith, ie?
For once, is it?
Roeddet ti wedi dweud bod—roedd hyn cyn y frawddeg olaf, a chywira fi os ydw i'n cael hyn yn rong—mi wnest ti roi'r enghraifft o Gasnewydd fel yr hyn sy'n gallu cael ei wneud, ac roeddet ti'n dweud nad yw hynny'n bodoli ym mhob man. Wedyn ddywedaist ti, yn y cyd-destun polisi neu ddeddfwriaeth—. Mae hynny'n awgrymu i mi eich bod chi eisiau gweld mwy o ddeddfwriaeth i fynnu bod awdurdodau lleol yn gweithredu mewn ffordd sy'n fwy cyffredin ar draws y wlad. Felly, dŷch chi'n sôn, mewn ffordd, am genedlaetholi addysg.
You said—this was before your last sentence, and correct me if I'm wrong—you gave the example of Newport as somewhere where it could be done, and that it doesn't exist everywhere. You then said, in the contexts of policy or legislation—. That suggests to me that you want to see more legislation to ensure that local authorities operate in a way that's more general across the country. So, you're talking, in a way, about nationalising education.
Na. Hynny yw—
No. That is—
Wel, y provision o addysg.
Well, the provision of education.
Dwi ddim yma i siarad ar ran Llywodraeth Cymru, wrth gwrs, Alun.
I'm not here to talk on behalf of the Welsh Government, of course, Alun.
Dydw i ddim yn awgrymu eich bod chi. Ond, mae gen i ddiddordeb mewn beth dŷch chi'n meddwl drwy ddweud hynny.
No, I'm not suggesting that you are. But I have an interest in what you think in saying that.
Beth dwi'n meddwl yw—. Fy nealltwriaeth i o fwriad Llywodraeth Cymru yw ei bwriad nhw o osod ffrâm fwy cadarn ar gyfer addysg Gymraeg yn genedlaethol. Dwi'n croesawu hynny. Rŷm ni'n gwneud hynny o ran y cwricwlwm. Hynny yw, mae yna nifer o ffyrdd heddiw rŷm ni'n deddfu. Rŷn ni wedi bod yn ei wneud e ar addysg sy'n ymwneud â rhyw a pherthnasau. Hynny, yw, mae yna Ddeddfau cenedlaethol. Dwi'n croesawu hynny, a dwi'n credu, am y rhesymau rŷn ni wedi eu nodi, bod angen hynny ar y Gymraeg.
What I think is—. My understanding of the Welsh Government's intention is that it's their intention to set a more robust framework for Welsh-medium education nationally. I welcome that. We are doing it in terms of the curriculum. There are a number of ways that we legislate. We've been doing it on sex and relationship education. Of course, there are national Acts. I welcome that, and I think, for the reasons we've noted, there is a need for that for the Welsh language.
So, dŷch chi eisiau gweld mwy o ddeddfwriaeth fwy cadarn i sicrhau bod awdurdodau lleol yn cael llai o gyfle, rili, i symud mewn cyfeiriad gwahanol, ond dŷch chi eisiau iddyn nhw ddilyn polisi Llywodraeth Cymru, a chael eu gorfodi i ddilyn y polisi.
So, you want to see more robust legislation to ensure that local authorities have less of an opportunity, really, to move in a different direction, but you say that you want them to follow the policy of Welsh Government and for that to be a requirement.
I ddilyn y ffrâm polisi, ydw.
To follow the framework of the policy, yes.
Ocê. Diolch.
Okay. Thank you.
Diolch. Mae Aled eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn hefyd.
Thank you. Aled wants to come in on this too.
Dwi'n meddwl, Heledd, o ran ateb y cwestiwn, mae'r fframwaith WESP yn fframwaith safonol, ac mae'n edrych ar nifer o agweddau, ond efallai fod angen edrych, yn statudol, beth ydy'r geiriad yn y fframwaith. O ran ymgynghori ar y cynllun, mae yna ddisgwyliad i chi ymgynghori am ddim llai na wyth wythnos. Os ydy hwnna'n dod yn ofyniad, mae hwnna'n newid pethau. Mae disgwyliad a gofyniad yn ddau beth gwahanol. Mae yna ddisgwyliad eu bod nhw'n ymgynghori efo pob sector addysg bellach yn yr ardal, ond dydy o ddim yn ofyniad. So, dwi'n meddwl bod yna gyfle wedyn i gryfhau'r Ddeddf yn fanna neu i gryfhau'r statud yn fanna.
Dwi'n meddwl hefyd, o ran beth roeddet ti'n gofyn, Heledd, o ran beth arall fyddai'n bosib o ran sicrhau bod y sector a'r cynnydd a'r continwwm yn parhau, rhywbeth dwi'n meddwl y buasai hi, efallai, yn werth i'r pwyllgor ei ystyried i'r dyfodol ydy argaeledd cymwysterau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Dwi'n meddwl hynny'n sicr am yr ôl-16, efo nifer y cyrff dyfarnu sy'n gweithredu yng Nghymru ddim yn cynnig cymwysterau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg—mae'n bosib eu dysgu nhw, mae'n bosib eu hastudio nhw, ond dydy'r arholiadau, ac yn y blaen, ddim ar gael yn Gymraeg. So, dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna hefyd yn rhywbeth sydd angen edrych arno fo i'r hir dymor i sicrhau nad ydy pobl ifanc sy'n mynd drwy eu haddysg statudol i gyd, efallai, drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg ddim yn methu gwneud hynny wedyn yn ôl-statudol.
Eto, jest i ategu'r pwynt roeddwn i'n gwneud yn gynharach—ac mae Dafydd wedi'i ategu—dwi'n meddwl bod angen i'r WESPs edrych ar addysg gydol oes. Dwi'n gwybod bod y Gweinidog addysg yn edrych ar addysg gydol oes fel blaenoriaeth, a dwi'n meddwl bod hwn yn gyfle rŵan i sicrhau bod awdurdodau a sefydliadau yn gweithio ar y cyd er mwyn trio cyrraedd at y filiwn o siaradwyr erbyn 2050.
In response to your question, Heledd, the WESPs framework is standardised and it looks at a number of aspects, but perhaps the wording of the framework needs to be looked at. In terms of consultation on the plan, there is an expectation that you consult for no less than eight weeks. Now, if that becomes a requirement, that changes things. An expectation and a requirement are two different things. There is an expectation that they consult with all FE providers in the area, but it's not a requirement. So, I think there's an opportunity to strengthen the law there.
Heledd, you also asked what else would be possible in terms of ensuring that the progress and continuum in the sector continues. Perhaps it would be worth the committee considering for the future the availability of qualifications through the medium of Welsh. I think that is certainly the case for post-16 education, given the number of awarding bodies working in Wales who don't offer Welsh-medium qualifications—they can be taught and studied through the medium of Welsh, but the examinations aren't available in Welsh. So, I think that's certainly something that needs to be looked at in the longer term to ensure that young people, perhaps, who follow all of their statutory education through the medium of Welsh can continue to do so in the post-statutory sector.
Just to reinforce the point I made earlier—and Dafydd has also echoed this point—I think the WESPs need to look at lifelong education. I know that the education Minister has lifelong learning as a priority, and I think this is now an opportunity to ensure that local authorities and organisations work together to strive towards a million Welsh speakers by 2050.
Diolch, Aled. Angharad.
Thank you, Aled. Angharad.
Dwi'n credu hefyd bod angen ystyried cryfhau, rywsut, y CSCAu ar hyn o bryd, a bod y gweithlu addysg a gofal blynyddoedd cynnar ddim jest yn edrych ar y cyfnodau yna o addysg statudol, cyn ac ôl-statudol. Mae yna amryw o weithwyr proffesiynol sy'n ymwneud â'r plant a'r bobl ifanc yna ar hyd y cyfnod yna, ac un o'r heriau mawr ydy o ran sicrhau darpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg i unrhyw blant a theuluoedd sydd ag anghenion dysgu ychwanegol, neu unrhyw anghenion penodol, yw bod angen sicrhau bod yna gydweithio ar draws addysg, blynyddoedd cynnar ac iechyd hefyd, achos mae nifer o'r gweithwyr proffesiynol arbenigol sy'n dod i mewn i gefnogi ysgolion, colegau a phrifysgolion—beth bynnag ydyn nhw—i helpu'r plant a'r teuluoedd yma ar hyd y daith, ddim yn gyflogedig gan y sector addysg; maen nhw'n gyflogedig gan y byrddau iechyd, ac mae yna her recriwtio yn fanna hefyd. Mae angen inni amlygu hynny fel un o'r rhesymau, o bosib, pam mae rhai teuluoedd sydd â phlant ag anghenion dysgu ychwanegol ddim yn dewis trywydd addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, achos dydy darpariaethau arbenigol ddim ar gael o reidrwydd yn eu hardal leol gyda staff ac mewn lleoliadau cyfrwng Cymraeg—dim ond oherwydd bod y ddarpariaeth yna ddim yn bodoli'n gyffredinol.
I think, also, that you need to consider strengthening the WESPs as they stand, and that the education and care workforce don't just look at that statutory education and post-statutory education. There are a number of professional workers who are involved with those children and young people during that whole period, and one of the greatest challenges in terms of Welsh-medium provision for children and families who have additional learning needs, or any other need, is to ensure that there is that collaboration across education, early years and health as well, because a number of the specialist professionals who support schools, colleges and universities, or whatever they are, to help those children and families throughout their educational journey, aren't employed by the education sector; they're employed by the health boards, and there is a recruitment challenge there as well. We need to highlight that as one of the reasons, perhaps, why families with children who have additional learning needs don't choose Welsh-medium education, because the specialist provision isn't necessarily available in their local area and provided by Welsh-medium staff and in Welsh-medium settings—just because that provision doesn't exist more generally.
Diolch, Angharad. Heledd, ydych chi'n hapus i ni symud ymlaen at rywbeth arall? Ocê, grêt. Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Sioned.
Thank you, Angharad. Heledd, are you happy for us to move on? Okay, great. We'll move on to Sioned.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. Dwi eisiau mynd yn ôl dipyn bach ar y pwynt yna rŷn ni wedi cyffwrdd arno fe o ran trefniadau atebolrwydd. Mae'n ymwneud, efallai, â rhoi pethau ar sail statudol, ond hefyd efallai o fewn y drefn sydd ohoni ar hyn o bryd. Sut dylai Llywodraeth Cymru sicrhau atebolrwydd? Sut gallan nhw gefnogi cyrff i sicrhau hynny? Dwi ddim yn gwybod os oes gyda chi unrhyw farn ar hynny.
Thank you, Chair. I wanted to return to that point that we've already touched upon in terms of accountability arrangements. It relates, perhaps, to putting things on a statutory basis, but also to the current system. How should Welsh Government ensure accountability? How can they support organisations in securing that? I don't know if you have any view on that.
Dafydd.
Ar un wedd, mae yna ffrâm heddiw, sef bod y cynlluniau'n cael eu cyflwyno i'r Llywodraeth ac mae'r Llywodraeth yn penderfynu a ydyn nhw'n dderbyniol ai peidio. Dwi yn credu bod yna her, wrth gwrs, gyda phethau fel yna, achos mae yna bwynt yn dod lle mae llywodraeth leol efallai yn newid pethau ychydig, ac wedyn mae'n rhaid i'r Llywodraeth naill ai benderfynu eu derbyn nhw neu eu gwrthod nhw, ac mae hwnna bron yn opsiwn niwclear. Felly, mae ffeindio ffordd o sicrhau eu bod nhw oddi fewn i'r ffrâm yma yn un eithaf pwysig, byddwn i'n awgrymu, ac mae'n dilyn nifer o'r sylwadau rŷn ni eisoes wedi bod yn eu trafod. Dwi ddim yn credu ein bod ni wedi cyrraedd y fanna eto. Mae'n werth cofio, wrth gwrs, ein bod ni wedi cael diwygiad pur sylweddol i'r WESPs yn lled ddiweddar, a dim ond nawr maen nhw'n weithredol, ac felly mae yna elfen lle rŷn ni yn aros i weld. Er gwaethaf y ffaith ein bod ni yn ddiamynedd weithiau, rŷn ni yn aros i weld sut mae hynny'n mynd i weithio mas. Ond mae yna gyfle yn y fanna.
On the one hand, there is a framework today, which means that the plans are submitted to the Government and the Government decides whether they're satisfactory or not. I do think that there's a challenge in that sort of thing, because a point arises where local government perhaps changes things a little, and then the Government has to decide whether to accept them or reject them, and that is nearly a nuclear option. So, finding a way of ensuring that they're within this framework is quite important, I would suggest, and it follows a number of the comments that we've already been discussing. I don't think we've reached that point yet. It's worth remembering, of course, we've had quite a significant reform of the WESPs recently, and they're only now being implemented, and so there is an element where we're waiting to see. Despite the fact that we are impatient at times, we are waiting to see how that is going to work out. But there is an opportunity there.
O ran, efallai, yr amrywiaeth, a rhywbeth sy'n gallu mynd at ddatrys yr amrywiaeth, ac efallai y diffyg uchelgais, a'r llwyddiannau mewn rai llefydd—y tirlun anwastad yna, am wn i, yntefe?
In terms of, perhaps, the variation, and something that can solve that variation, and maybe the lack of ambition, and the successes in some areas—it's that uneven landscape, isn't it?
Ie, mae yna ddau beth, onid oes? Yn gyntaf, mae angen i'r ffrâm fod yn gadarn iawn a buaswn i'n meddwl ei fod e'n gyfle i roi hynny ar sail statudol.
Yr ail elfen, wedyn; rŷn ni wedi cyffwrdd sawl elfen yn fan hyn o ran addysg ôl-statudol ac ati a ddylai fod yna ym mhob man, a dyw e ddim yna ym mhob man.
Ac wedyn efallai'r trydydd yw beth yw'r patrwm o ran adrodd cyhoeddus a thryloyw ar y cynnydd yn erbyn y targedau yna. Fel rŷn ni'n gwybod mewn nifer o feysydd polisi, yr hyn rŷn ni'n debygol o weld yw y bydd rhai awdurdodau lleol yn gwneud cynnydd pwrpasol a sylweddol a fydd eraill ddim. Ac felly, pa mor amlwg fydd hynny i chi, i ni, ac i'r cyhoedd?
Yes, there are two things, aren't there? Firstly, the framework needs to be robust and I think that it would be an opportunity to put that on a statutory basis.
The second element; we've touched on a number of things here in terms of post-statutory education that should be included everywhere, and they're not at the moment.
And the third is what is the pattern in terms of reporting publicly and transparently on progress against these targets. As we know, in many policy areas what we're likely to see is that some local authorities will make significant progress and others won't. And so, how apparent will that be to you, to us, and to the public?
Diolch, Dafydd. Oes rhywun arall eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn? Na.
Thank you, Dafydd. Does anyone else want to come in on this? No.
Un cwestiwn bach arall, te, mwy cyffredinol mewn ffordd, ynglŷn â natur y cynlluniau. Rŷn ni wedi eu gweld nhw ar eu newydd wedd, ac fel rŷch chi wedi sôn, Dafydd, mae yna groeso gan nifer, dwi'n meddwl, bod yna ryw fath o step change wedi digwydd, neu yn y broses o ddigwydd. Fe wnaeth y Gweinidog sôn bod y cynlluniau i dyfu addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg o fewn y 10 mlynedd nesaf mor uchelgeisiol ag y gallent fod. Ydych chi yn cytuno gyda hynny?
One other question then, more general in a way, regarding the nature of the WESPs. We've seen them in their new form, and as you've mentioned Dafydd, a number have welcomed the fact that there's been some sort of step change, or that it's in the process of happening. The Minister mentioned that the plans to grow Welsh-medium education in the next 10 years are as ambitious as they could be. Do you agree with that?
Mae'n gwestiwn da iawn, Sioned, os caf i ddweud. Ar un lefel, dwi yn cytuno, oherwydd mae'r fath o symudiad sydd yn cael ei ragweld yn y WESPs yn un sylweddol. Ac eithrio ein ffrindiau yng Ngwlad y Basg ac efallai'r Catalaniaid ac efallai'r Israeliaid, prin iawn o wledydd yn hanes y byd sydd wedi llwyddo i wneud y newid hynny gydag iaith sy'n gymharol isel ei defnydd.
Yr unig elfen fyddwn i'n dweud nawr sydd yn fy marn i angen ei hystyried yn ofalus yw'r cynllun gweithlu sy'n mynd gyda'r WESPs. Mae'r cynllun gweithlu sydd wedi ei gyhoeddi gan Lywodraeth Cymru erbyn hyn, y cynllun gweithlu 10 mlynedd, yn edrych at approach cam wrth gam. Ond mae'r WESPs a'r cynllun miliwn o siaradwyr yn galw am symud o rywbeth fel 250 o athrawon yn cael eu hyfforddi bob blwyddyn i 600. Felly, dwi ddim yn sicr bod cynllun cam wrth gam yn mynd â ni o 250, fel mae e wedi bod ers pum mlynedd a mwy, i 600. Dyna yw'r man, os liciwn ni, gyda'r WESPs a'r holl gynllunio, lle mae yna her benodol.
It's a very good question, Sioned, if I may say so. On one level, I do agree, because the kind of shift anticipated in the WESPs is significant. With the exception of our colleagues in the Basque Country, and perhaps the Catalans and the Israelis, there are few nations in the history of the world who have managed to make that change with a language that's relatively low in terms of its usage.
The only element I would say that is at present in need of serious consideration is the workforce planning that runs along with the WESPs. The workforce plan that has been published by the Welsh Government, the 10-year workforce plan, looks at a phased approach. But the WESPs and the million Welsh speakers plan calls for a shift from something like 250 teachers being trained per year to 600 being trained. So, I am not certain that a phased approach will take us from 250, as it has been for five years and more, to 600. With the WESPs and all of the planning, that is the area, if you like, where there is a specific challenge.
Diolch. Oedd rhywun arall eisiau dod i mewn? Angharad.
Thank you. Did somebody else want to come in? Angharad.
Rwy'n credu un o'r pethau gyda'r targedau yw y byddwn ni i gyd yn hoffi gweld targedau uwch yn cael eu gosod. Un o'r heriau yw gosod targedau sydd yn uchelgeisiol ond hefyd yn realistig yn y maes. Fel mae Dafydd yn sôn, un o'r heriau ochr yn ochr â hwnna ydy targedau penodol ar gyfer staffio a recriwtio gweithlu a chynnal a chadw gweithlu ar draws y sectorau. Mae angen ystyried hefyd capasiti datblygu, capasiti'r ysgolion sydd gyda ni yn barod, a darpariaethau addysg cyn ac ôl-statudol hefyd, a sicrhau bod yna lwybr addysg amlwg i rieni sydd yn mynd o'r cychwyn cyntaf, y diwrnod cyntaf yna a gofal i'r plentyn yna, hyd yr amser bydd y plentyn yna yn gorffen ei addysg, boed hynny yn 16 neu'n 18 neu ar ddiwedd y brifysgol. Mae'n rhaid bod y rhieni yn ffyddiog, o'r eiliad eu bod nhw'n dewis addysg a gofal cyfrwng Cymraeg i'r plentyn yna, ei fod e'n bosib i'r plentyn yna dderbyn yr addysg a gofal o'r ansawdd orau posibl yn Gymraeg yn lleol hyd ddiwedd eu cyfnod nhw yn y sector addysg.
I think one of the things with regard to the targets is that we would all like to see higher targets being set. One of the challenges is to set targets that are ambitious but also realistic in this area. As Dafydd has mentioned, one of the challenges alongside that is specific targets for staffing and recruiting the workforce and workforce retention across the sectors. You also need to consider the capacity to develop, the capacity of the schools that we have already, and the post- and pre-statutory education provision as well, and ensuring that there is a clear education route for parents that goes from the very first day, in terms of the care of that child, to the time that that child will finish his or her education, whether they're 16 or 18 or at the end of university. The parents need to have confidence that when they choose Welsh-medium care or education, it's possible for that child to receive the care and education of the best possible standard in Welsh at a local level until the end of their time in the education sector.
Sioned—iawn?
Sioned—okay?
Iawn, diolch.
Okay, thanks.
Grêt. Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Hefin David.
Great. We'll move on to Hefin David.
Diolch. A yw'r cylch 10 mlynedd yn ddigonol o ran sicrhau bod yr awdurdodau lleol yn cael eu monitro'n briodol?
Thank you. Is the 10-year cycle appropriate in terms of ensuring that local authorities are appropriately monitored?
Pwy sydd eisiau mynd ar ôl hwnna yn gyntaf? Mae nifer o bobl yn gwenu. Aled?
Who'd like to take that question first? I see a number of smiles. Aled?
Dwi'n siŵr gall Aled ateb hwnna'n gyntaf.
I'm sure Aled can answer that first.
Cwestiwn diddorol. Mae unrhyw gynllun, os ydy o angen cael gweledigaeth, yn gynllun 10 mlynedd, ond sut mae rhywun yn monitro'r cynllun yna wedyn ac yn sicrhau ei fod yn dal yn berthnasol mewn pum mlynedd neu dal yn berthnasol mewn blwyddyn? Mae'n dod yn ôl hefyd at y mater yna sydd wedi cael ei drafod eisoes: un peth dwi'n meddwl sydd yn her inni, neu’n her i’r sector, fel rhan o’r WESPs, ydy dydyn ni ddim jyst yn ddarparwr addysg ôl-16—rydyn ni'n cyfrannu’n sylweddol at y cyrsiau 14 i 16 drwy’r consortia yn lleol. A dwi ddim yn meddwl bod yna ymgynghori efo ni ynglŷn â hynny'n ddigonol ar ansawdd y ddarpariaeth a natur ieithyddol y ddarpariaeth honno. Mae yna arbenigwyr pwnc yn darparu’r cyrsiau. Fel yr oedd Angharad yn nodi gynnau, mae angen sicrhau bod y bobl ifanc sy'n dod ar y cyrsiau 14 i 16 oed neu'n aros yn yr ysgol yn cael ansawdd safonol o addysg—waeth eu bod nhw yn yr ysgol neu yn y coleg—gan arbenigwyr yn eu pynciau. Achos os mai'r rhain sy'n dylanwadu ar lwybr gyrfa pobl ifanc ym mlynyddoedd 11, 12 a 13 a thu hwnt, mae'n bwysig ein bod ni'n buddsoddi yn y sector honno hefyd.
Dwi'n meddwl bod y cynllun 10 mlynedd yn wych, ond dydy o'n dda i ddim byd os nad ydy rhywun yn ei fonitro’n flynyddol neu'n gyson. Dydy cael cynllun bob 10 mlynedd, a’i adolygu mewn 10 mlynedd, yn dda i ddim byd achos dydy hynny ddim yn mynd i'n symud ni yn ein blaenau. Efallai bod y cynllun yn rhy uchelgeisiol. Dwi'n cytuno hefyd efo beth oedd Angharad yn ei ddweud: mae angen gosod targedau uchelgeisiol, ond mae’n rhaid i’r targedau hynny fod yn rhai campus. Buaswn i'n awgrymu efallai ei fod yn well petasen nhw'n gynlluniau pum mlynedd, sydd yn cael eu hadolygu’n flynyddol gan yr awdurdodau, ond hefyd efo'r partneriaid y dylen nhw ymgynghori â nhw, dim y gallan nhw ymgynghori efo nhw.
O ran ateb cwestiwn blaenorol—ydy'r prosesau monitro yn ddigon caeth—dwi'n meddwl mai dim ond y pwyllgor all ateb hwnnw gan mai'r Llywodraeth sydd yn eu monitro nhw. Ond dwi'n meddwl mai ffordd hawdd iawn o sicrhau eu bod nhw wedi mynd drwy’r camau statudol byddai gofyn i’r rheini sydd yn ddisgwyliedig iddyn nhw ymgynghori â nhw eu harwyddo nhw i ffwrdd—so, bod yna lofnod gan bennaeth sefydliad addysg bellach ar unrhyw WESP yn dweud eu bod nhw wedi cael eu hymgynghori arnyn nhw'n llawn.
It's an interesting question. Any plan, if it's to have vision, should be a 10-year plan, but how do you monitor that and ensure that it's still relevant in five years or even in a year? It also comes back to issues that we've already discussed: one thing that is a challenge for us, or a challenge for the sector, as part of the WESPs, is that we're not just post-16 education providers—we contribute significantly to the 14-to-16 courses through the local consortia. And I don't think that there's been adequate consultation with us on that point in terms of the quality of the provision and the linguistic nature of the provision. There are subject experts providing this education. As Angharad said earlier, we need to ensure that the young people who attend those courses at 14 to 16, or remain in school have quality education—be they in school or in college—taught by specialists in their subjects. Because if these are what have a real impact on the career path of pupils in years 11, 12 and 13 and beyond, it's important that we also invest in that sector.
I think the 10-year plan is excellent, but it's no good unless it's monitored properly either annually or at least regularly, because having a 10-year plan, and reviewing it every 10 years, is not good for anyone because it's not going to make any progress. So, perhaps it's too ambitious. I agree with what Angharad said: you need to set ambitious targets, but those targets have to be achievable. I would suggest that the WESPs perhaps should be five-year plans, reviewed annually by local authorities, but also with the partners that they should consult with, not those partners that they could consult with.
In terms of responding to an earlier question—are the monitoring processes strict enough—I think only the committee can answer that question as it's the responsibility of Government. But I think a very easy way of ensuring that they have gone through the statutory stages would be to ask those whom they are expected to consult with to sign them off—so, that there would be a signature from the head of a further education institution on any WESP, stating that they had been fully consulted on.
Diolch, Aled. Gwnaf ddod at Dafydd nesaf ac wedyn at Angharad.
Thank you, Aled. I'll come to Dafydd next and then to Angharad.
Jyst yn fyr, does dim problem gyda chynllun 10 mlynedd. Hynny yw, mae'n gall i gael cynllun sy'n edrych i'r tymor hir achos mae'n cymryd amser i adeiladu ysgol; mae'n cymryd amser i ddenu plant i ysgol. Y gamp yw ar ba bwynt mae'n cael ei fonitro a'i fonitro'n glir ac yn robust, yntefe? I fi, mae'n teimlo fel dylai hynny fod yn digwydd yn sicr bob tair blynedd. Hynny yw, mae yna amser yn digwydd i bethau, ond y gamp yw gwneud yn siŵr bod y monitro'n gall. Dyw cael cynllun ar gyfer 10 mlynedd ddim intrinsically yn broblem, dwi ddim yn credu.
Just briefly, there's no problem with a 10-year plan. That is, it makes sense to have a plan that looks into the future, because it takes time to build a school; it takes time to attract children to a school. The trick is at what point is it monitored, and clearly and robustly monitored. To me, it feels as if it should be happening, certainly, every three years. There is time for things to happen, but the trick is to make sure that the monitoring is sensible. Having a plan for 10 years is not intrinsically a problem, I don't think.
Diolch, Dafydd. Angharad, oeddech chi eisiau dod mewn hefyd?
Thank you, Dafydd. Angharad, did you want to come in too?
Dwi'n cytuno—dwi'n credu mai nid hyd y cynllun 10 mlynedd yw'r peth, a bod yn onest, o ran gallu cynllunio a blaengynllunio. Mae 10 mlynedd yn llawer gwell na'r hen system o ailysgrifennu ac adolygu'r cynlluniau ar gylch o dair blynedd. Doedd y tair blynedd ddim yn rhoi digon o amser i fonitro a gweithredu a gweld beth oedd y gwahaniaeth cyn gorfod cychwyn ar y broses i gyd o'r cychwyn eto. Doedd yna ddim edrych ymlaen i'r dyfodol canol digonol yn digwydd achos roedd y cylch tair blynedd yn lot rhy fyr.
Eto, dwi'n cytuno gyda Dafydd mai ystyried sut i fonitro'r datblygiadau yn erbyn y targedau dros y 10 mlynedd sydd yn bwysig: bod cael y targedau ar draws 10 mlynedd yn rhoi cyfle i awdurdodau lleol a phartneriaid gynllunio i ddatblygu a chynyddu'r niferoedd dros y tymor yma, ond bod angen dangos a monitro'r cynnydd yn gyson yn erbyn y targedau yna ac eistedd i lawr ac adolygu i weld a ydy'r cynnydd yna wedi digwydd ac a oes angen newid neu wneud ychwanegiadau ac ymyrraethau ychwanegol i allu cyrraedd y targedau yna dros y cyfnod.
Thank you. I agree—I don't think that the length of the 10-year plan is the issue, to be honest, in terms of being able to plan and forward planning. Ten years is much better than the old system of reviewing and rewriting plans on a three-year cycle. But three years didn't provide enough time to monitor and implement and see what the difference was before having to start the process from the beginning all over again. There was no looking forward to that medium-term future because the three-year cycle was too short.
Again, I agree with Dafydd that it's the need to consider how we monitor these developments against the targets over the 10 years that is important: that having the targets over 10 years gives local authorities and partnerships an opportunity to plan, to develop and increase numbers over that term, but there is a need to show and monitor the progress often against those targets and look and sit down and review whether that progress has been made against the targets and see if there is a need to change or include other interventions to reach those targets over a period of time.
Felly, mae monitro dros bum mlynedd yn iawn.
So, five-yearly monitoring is fine.
Buaswn i'n dweud tair i bum mlynedd, i edrych yn ôl at lle maen nhw wedi cyrraedd a gweld beth sydd angen iddyn nhw ei wneud i gyrraedd y targed oedd wedi cael ei osod ar y cychwyn, neu a oes angen ymestyn y targed achos eu bod nhw'n agos ato fe'n barod.
I would say three to five years, in order to look at the progress made and what they need to do to continue to achieve the targets set, or whether the target needs to be extended because they're already close to it.
Mae Aled eisiau dod i mewn ar y pwynt yna hefyd.
I think Aled wanted to come in on that point, too.
Os caf i ddod yn ôl, buaswn i'n dweud bod angen monitro yn flynyddol. Fel sefydliadau addysg, rydyn ni'n paratoi adroddiadau hunanarfarnu yn flynyddol, ac os ydyn ni'n sôn am addysg yn y fan yma, dwi'n meddwl bod monitro'n flynyddol yn bwysig, achos pe bawn i'n aros am dair blynedd i fonitro ansawdd fy ngholeg, buasai gen i broblemau. Os nad ydw i wedi ffeindio bod yna broblem ansawdd yn y flwyddyn gyntaf a fy mod i'n ei adael am dair, mae'r broblem yn mynd yn waeth. Felly, buaswn i'n awgrymu bod angen monitro yn flynyddol. Rwy'n cytuno efo beth mae Angharad a Dafydd yn ei ddweud: efallai bod y cynllun yn gynllun pump i 10 mlynedd, ond mae'r monitro, yn fy marn i, yn gorfod bod yn rhywbeth blynyddol.
If I could come back, I think that we need to monitor annually. As education institutions, we have annual evaluations, and if we're talking about education, I think annual monitoring is important, because if I was waiting for three years to monitor the quality of my college, I would have problems. If I hadn't identified the problem in the first year and it's left for three, I would say that the problem will have got much worse. So, I would suggest that we need annual monitoring. I would agree with what Dafydd and Angharad said: the plan could be for five or 10 years, but the monitoring has to be annual.
Mae Alun eisiau dod i mewn ar y pwynt yma.
Alun wants to come in at this point.
Mae pob un ohonoch, yn eich atebion, wedi sôn am fonitro, a liciwn i wybod pwy sy'n monitro a beth ydyn nhw'n monitro.
In your answers, you've all spoken about monitoring, and I'd like to know who is monitoring and what are they monitoring.
Dafydd.
Dafydd.
Llywodraeth Cymru, y targedau a osodir yn y WESPs, ac wedyn yn cyhoeddi'r cynnydd fesul awdurdod lleol. Os meddyliwn ni am fins ac ailgylchu, rŷn ni'n gweld pob blwyddyn, neu bob ychydig flynyddoedd, cynnydd yr awdurdodau lleol ar ailgylchu. Buaswn i'n falch iawn i weld eu cynnydd nhw, neu beidio, fel mae'n briodol, ar y WESPs.
The Welsh Government, the targets set in the WESPs, and then publishing the progress according to local authority. Thinking of bins and recycling, for example, we see every year, or every few years, progress made in local authorities on recycling. I'd be very pleased to see their progress, or not, as appropriate, on the WESPs.
Oedd unrhyw un arall eisiau ychwanegu at hynny?
Did anyone else have anything to add?
Dwi eisiau pob un i ateb, achos maen nhw wedi dweud bod yna fonitro i gael, a dwi eisiau gwybod pwy maen nhw'n sôn amdano pan maen nhw'n sôn amdano fe.
I want everyone to answer this question, because they've said that there is monitoring, and I want to know who they're talking about.
Mae Angharad eisiau dod i mewn.
Angharad wants to come in.
Dwi'n credu bod yna fonitro'n digwydd. Mae cyfarfodydd yn digwydd, mae yna fforymau, naill ai mae yna bwyllgorau WESP yn lleol, mae yna fforymau Cymraeg mewn ambell i awdurdod lleol sydd yn eistedd ac yn monitro'r cynnydd ar ambell i bwynt penodol. Dwi'n cytuno gyda Dafydd mai beth rydyn ni angen ei wneud ydy gweld rhyw system sy'n gofyn i'r awdurdodau lleol greu adroddiad ffurfiol yn rheolaidd i ddangos mewn ffordd syml i'r cyhoedd ac i bartneriaid ble yn union maen nhw arni, yn tynnu'r holl waith yna sydd wedi digwydd tu ôl i'r llenni a'i wneud yn fwy cyhoeddus.
There is monitoring happening. There are meetings taking place, there are fora, there are local WESP committees, there are Welsh in education fora in some local authorities, which monitor progress on specific points. But I agree with Dafydd that what we need to do is to have some system that requires local authorities to draw up a regular formal report to outline in simple terms to the public and to partners where exactly they're at, drawing all of that work that happens behind the scenes together and making it public.
Aled—os ydy Aled eisiau dod i mewn. Na. Ocê.
Aled. I don't know if Aled wanted to come in. No. Okay.
Dwi eisiau i Aled ateb y cwestiwn. Mae e wedi dweud bod angen monitro, so Aled, pwy sy'n monitro a beth maen nhw'n monitro?
I would like Aled to answer the question. He said that there is a need for monitoring, so who is doing that monitoring and what are they monitoring?
Dwi'n meddwl, Alun, bod hynny'n gwestiwn efallai lle mae o'n annheg i fi ddweud mai awdurdodau dylai fonitro; WESP yr awdurdod ydy o, felly ai'r awdurdod dylai fonitro? Ond os ydw i'n prynu i mewn iddo fo, buaswn i'n fwy na pharod i gyfrannu at y monitro os ydy hi'n dod yn WESP sydd ar gyfer awdurdod yn cynnwys ei bartneriaethau. Fel mae Angharad yn dweud, mae yna WESP steering group sy'n cynnwys mewn rhai ardaloedd aelodau o sefydliadau addysg bellach Cymru; mewn ardaloedd eraill, dydyn nhw ddim yn cynnwys aelodau o'r sefydliadau addysg bellach. Buaswn i'n awgrymu, felly, mai un o'r grwpiau monitro ydy un o grwpiau monitro'r WESP, fel roedd Angharad yn ei ddweud, sydd yn cynnwys amryw o asiantaethau. Felly, cael ei fonitro'n fewnol gan yr awdurdod ac unrhyw bartneriaid sydd yn rhan o'r grwpiau monitro'r WESPs. Ar ddiwedd y dydd, os mai Llywodraeth Cymru sy'n gofyn am y dogfennau, mae'n debyg bod yna gyfrifoldeb terfynol—bod yr awdurdodau lleol yn monitro a ydyn nhw'n gyfforddus efo'r cynnydd yn erbyn y targedau.
I think, Alun, that's a question perhaps where it's unfair for us to say that the local authorities should be monitoring; it's the local authority's WESP, so should the local authority be monitoring it? But, if I'm buying into it, I'd be more than willing to contribute to the monitoring, if it was a WESP for an authority including its partnerships. As Angharad said, there is a WESP steering group that includes, in some areas, members of further education organisations in Wales; in other areas, they don't include members from those further education organisations. So, I would suggest that one of the monitoring groups is the WESP monitoring group, as Angharad said, including multiple agencies. So, monitored internally by the authority and any partners who are part of the WESP monitoring group. At the end of the day, if the Welsh Government is asking for the documents, the likelihood is that the final responsibility is on the local authorities to monitor whether they're comfortable with the progress against the targets.
Yn ogystal, buasai Estyn hefyd, siŵr o fod.
Estyn would probably have a role as well.
Os ydych chi'n edrych ar addysg ac ansawdd y ddarpariaeth, Estyn ydy o, ond mae'n dibynnu beth rydych chi eisiau monitro yn y WESPs, achos dydy'r WESPs ddim jest yn sôn am yr ansawdd, maen nhw'n sôn am yr ystod.
If you're looking at education and the quality of education, then it is down to Estyn, but it depends what you're monitoring in the WESP, because they don't just talk about quality, they talk about the range of provision available.
Nôl atoch chi, Hefin. Hang on, mae Angharad eisiau dod i mewn ar hwnna.
Back to you, Hefin. Hang on, Angharad wants to come in.
Mae'r ysgolion yn gwneud yr adroddiad PLASC bob blwyddyn beth bynnag, sydd yn casglu llawer iawn o wybodaeth ar gyfer plant oed ysgol statudol. Un o'r pethau o bosib i ystyried ydy a fyddai'n bosib defnyddio'r system sydd mewn lle eisoes ar gyfer casglu data o'r ysgolion i fesur cynnydd yr awdurdodau lleol yn erbyn y targedau maen nhw wedi gosod iddyn nhw eu hunain yn y WESPs.
Schools draw up the pupil level annual school census report every year, and that gathers a great deal of information for those in statutory education. One of the things that should be considered is whether it would be possible to use the data gathering system in schools to measure the progress made by local authorities against the targets that they've set out in their WESPs.
Diolch am hwnna, Angharad. Dwi am fynd nôl at Hefin. Mae gyda ni chwarter awr ar ôl. Mae gyda ni ddau Aelod sydd ddim wedi dod mewn o gwbl eto, felly os ydyn ni'n gallu bod mor gryno â ni'n gallu bod cyn i ni gyrraedd y ddau olaf, plîs. Hefin.
Thank you for that, Angharad. I'm going to go back to Hefin. We've got 15 minutes left. We've got two Members who haven't come in at all, so if we can be as brief as possible before we get to the last two, please. Hefin.
Excuse my clunky Welsh. I'm doing my best.
Na, rŷch chi'n gwneud yn dda iawn, Hefin.
No, you're doing very well, Hefin.
[Anghlywadwy.] A yw'r cynlluniau strategol 10 mlynedd yn gwneud cysylltiadau digonol â pholisïau strategol eraill, er enghraifft fframwaith gwella ysgolion neu'r cwricwlwm newydd i Gymru?
[Inaudible.] Are the 10-year WESPs making sufficient links with other strategic education policies, for example the revised school improvement framework or the new Curriculum for Wales?
Oes unrhyw un eisiau dod mewn ar hyn? Dafydd?
Who would like to come in on this? Dafydd?
Sori, Hefin. Mae yna broblem fan hyn lle dwi'n dweud i bob cwestiwn—neu dwi ddim yn dweud i bob cwestiwn, ond dwi yn dueddol o ddweud—'the jury's out'. Dwi'n credu ar hyn o bryd dŷn ni ddim yn gwybod, achos mae'r cynlluniau newydd yn eithaf newydd, ac felly mae e bron yn amser od i fod yn edrych arnyn nhw yn y cyd-destun hwnnw. Os ŷch chi'n gofyn beth ddylai fod yn digwydd, fe ddylen nhw yn sicr fod yn 'reference-o' y gwahanol strategaethau yma, achos beth dwi'n dueddol o weld yn y system addysg, achos dwi'n lywodraethwr ysgol hefyd, yw bod yna bob math o bethau'n digwydd fan hyn sy'n gyffrous iawn, ac mae pawb yn rhoi lot o egni mewn i'r cwricwlwm fan hyn, wedyn, rhywle arall, mae yna bobl yn gweithio ar sustainable communities for learning fan hyn, wedyn rhywle arall mae yna bobl yn gweithio ar Welsh-medium education fan hyn, a dŷn nhw byth yn siarad gyda'i gilydd, a dwi'n credu mae hynny—. Dwi'n gor-ddweud ychydig, efallai, ond mae yna her diwylliant, cultural, fanna i dynnu pobl at ei gilydd i wneud yn siŵr bod pobl yn, fod pobl—. Beth rŷn ni eisiau yw awdurdodau lleol ar draws Cymru, yr adran addysg i gyd, i fod yn berchen ar y WESP, o'r cyfarwyddwr addysg i lawr, ac mae hwnna'n her, dwi'n credu, ac yn rhywbeth—[Torri ar draws.] Dwi ddim yn credu ei fod e'n digwydd ym mhob man.
Sorry, Hefin. There's a problem here where I'm tending to say 'the jury is out' in response to all the questions. At the moment we don't know, because the new plans are new, and it's almost a strange time to be looking at them in that context. But if you're asking what should be happening, then they certainly should reference these various different strategies, because what I tend to see in the education system, because I'm a school governor too, is that there are all sorts of things happening here that are very exciting, and everyone puts a great deal of energy into the curriculum there, and then, elsewhere, there are people working on sustainable communities for learning, then other people are working on Welsh-medium education, and they never talk to each other. I may be overstating that slightly perhaps, but there is a cultural challenge to bring people together there, to ensure that people—. Because what we want is local authorities across Wales, the whole education department, to take ownership of the WESP, from the director of education down, and that's a challenge, I think, and something—[Interruption.] I don't think it's happening everywhere at the moment.
Ocê. Dwi ddim yn gweld bod unrhyw un arall eisiau dod mewn. Angharad.
Okay. I can't see that anybody else wants to come in. Angharad.
Dwi'n credu mai un o'r pethau mae angen eu pwysleisio ydy'r ffaith bod angen i'r holl strategaethau gydblethu i mewn iddo fe. Un o'r pethau sydd yn bach yn od ydy ein bod ni eisiau cynyddu nifer y plant sy'n mynd drwy'r system addysg Gymraeg i ateb y gofynion a chyrraedd targedau 'Cymraeg 2050' beth bynnag, ond, wedyn, wrth gyhoeddi'r canllawiau ar gategoreiddio ysgolion yn ôl darpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg, mi oedden nhw'n ganllawiau anstatudol, sydd braidd yn ddryslyd. Achos beth sydd angen ei sicrhau ydy bod rhieni, a phlant wrth bod nhw'n mynd yn hŷn, yn deall beth fydd y canlyniad ieithyddol iddyn nhw mewn ffordd sydd yn hawdd ac yn gyson ar draws ysgolion ac ar draws Cymru o ran beth fydd eu gallu nhw yn y Gymraeg wrth iddyn nhw adael y math yna o ddarpariaeth addysg. Ac, ar hyn o bryd, dyw'r ffordd mae pobl yn cyfeirio at addysg Gymraeg ac addysg ddwyieithog ddim yn hawdd iawn i deuluoedd ei ddeall os nad ydyn nhw'n gofyn cwestiynau. Dwi'n credu bod angen dod â pawb rownd y bwrdd â set o ddiffiniadau sy'n cael eu defnyddio'n gyson, a wedyn sicrhau bod pob strategaeth sydd yn mynd, pob datblygiad cwricwlwm, yn pwysleisio'r ffaith bod angen i bopeth gael ei ystyried mewn un lle, yn hytrach na bod lot o bethau a chanllawiau statudol yn cael eu creu sydd ddim yn cael ei ystyried yn y WESP fel rhan graidd o'r diffiniadau hefyd.
I think that one of the things that needs to be emphasised is that there is a need for all the strategies to weave into it. One of the things that's a little bit odd is that we want to increase the number of children who go through the Welsh-medium education system to meet the targets and the requirements of 'Cymraeg 2050', but, in producing the guidance on categorisation of schools according to Welsh-medium provision, that was non-statutory guidance, which is a little bit confusing. Because what you need to ensure is that parents, and children as they get older, understand what will be the linguistic result for them in an easy and consistent manner across schools and across Wales in terms of what their ability will be and their proficiency will be in the Welsh language when they leave this sort of education provision. And, currently, the way that people refer to Welsh-medium education and bilingual education isn't very easy to understand for families unless they ask questions. There is a need to bring everybody around the table with a set of definitions that are used consistently, and then to ensure that every strategy and every curriculum development emphasises the need for everything to be considered in one place, rather than having many things and statutory guidance being created that are not being considered in the WESPs as a core part of the definitions.
Diolch, Angharad. Mae'n flin gen i; bydd yn rhaid inni symud ymlaen. Gwnawn ni symud ymlaen at Tom Giffard.
Thank you, Angharad. I'm very sorry; we'll have to move on. We'll move on now to Tom Giffard.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. Allaf i ddechrau gan sôn am addysg gyfrwng Saesneg, a beth yw eich asesiad chi o'r fframwaith bresennol, a sut mae honno'n datblygu'r dysgwr Cymraeg, a dysgu Cymraeg, yn addysg gyfrwng Saesneg, a beth gall awdurdodau lleol ei wneud i gwella hi?
Thank you, Chair. Perhaps I could start by mentioning English-medium education, and what's your assessment of the current framework, and how that develops a Welsh learner and skills in Welsh in the English-medium sector, and what can local authorities do to improve that.
Dwi'n falch iawn eich bod chi wedi gofyn y cwestiwn yna achos mae yna her sylweddol iawn yn y sector cyfrwng Saesneg. Mae pobl yn dweud, o'r miliwn o siaradwyr, fod cannoedd ar filoedd ohonyn nhw yn mynd i ddod o ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg, achos dŷn ni'n mynd i newid ein system addysg, ac mae pobl yn mynd i ddod o'r ysgolion Saesneg yna yn rhugl. Dwi'n credu bod gyda ni bellter i fynd. Mae'n mynd i fod yn anodd. Dwi'n credu ei fod e'n golygu ein bod ni'n gorfod meddwl yn ofalus iawn am hyfforddi athrawon ar gyfer y sector cyfrwng Saesneg. Hynny yw, petaech chi'n gofyn i fi gyflwyno Serbo-Croateg i blant mewn ysgol cyfun, fyddwn i ddim yn gallu ei wneud e, achos dydw i ddim yn siarad Serbo-Croateg. Ond, ar hyn o bryd, mae rhyw assumption ein bod ni'n gallu gofyn i athrawon, y rhan fwyaf ohonyn nhw ddim yn siarad Cymraeg, i gyflwyno'r Gymraeg i blant mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg ac wedyn, yn sydyn, mae yna nifer o blant rhugl yn mynd i ddod o'r ysgolion yna. Hynny yw, mae angen codi lefel y sgiliau ymysg y gweithlu yn yr ysgolion Saesneg os ŷn ni am lwyddo. Achos nid jest yn y—. Roedd fy mam i yn dysgu Cymraeg mewn ysgol Saesneg, ac roedden nhw'n cael rhywfaint o lwyddiant, ond, er mwyn i bobl fod yn hyderus yn siarad Cymraeg, mae'n gorfod bod yn rhywbeth sydd yn y gwersi Cymraeg, ond hefyd yn y gwersi maths, yn y gwersi bywydeg, yn y gwersi hanes. Mae'n gorfod bod yn rhan o culture yr ysgol, yntefe, ac rwy'n credu bod yna her mawr yn y workforce yn fanna er mwyn symud ymlaen.
I'm pleased that you've asked that question, because there is a very significant challenge in the English-medium sector. People do say that, of the million speakers, hundreds of thousands of them will come from English-medium schools, because we're going to transform our education system, and people will come from the English-medium sector being fluent Welsh speakers. Well, we have a distance to travel in that regard. It's going to be difficult. I do think it means that we have to think very carefully about teacher training for the English-medium sector. Because, if you asked me to introduce Serbo-Croat to children in a comprehensive, I couldn't do it, because I'm not a speaker of the language. But, at the moment, there's this assumption that we can ask teachers, most of whom don't speak Welsh, to introduce the Welsh language to children in English-medium schools and then, all of a sudden, you're going to have a number of fluent Welsh speakers coming from those schools. We need to raise the level of skills amongst the workforce in the English-medium schools if we're to succeed. Because it's not just in—. My mother taught Welsh in an English-medium school, and they had some success, but, if people are to be confident in speaking Welsh, then it has to be something that's in the Welsh lessons, but also in the maths lessons, the biology lessons, the history lessons. It has to be part of the school's culture, and I think there is a major challenge in the workforce there to make progress.
Ond jest i fynd nôl, beth yw'r ateb i hwnna? Oherwydd nid ond sgiliau yw e—fel oeddech chi wedi sôn amdano, mae'n hyder hefyd. Sut ŷn ni'n cael y staff hefyd i gael yr hyder i wneud pethau'n Gymraeg?
But just to return to that, what's the solution to that? Because it's not just a matter of skills, it's confidence too. How can we give the staff confidence to work through the medium of Welsh?
Mae yna ddau beth, a phetai prif weithredwr y ganolfan gyda ni heddiw fel a fwriadwyd cyn iddi symud ymlaen at bethau amgen, byddai hi wedi sôn am nifer o'r cynlluniau: Cymraeg Gwaith i ddatblygu hyder pobl, y cynllun sabothol. Mae yna fentrau yn fanna, ond mae'n rhaid eu hehangu nhw'n fawr iawn.
Mae angen hefyd ystyried a ydyn ni'n dilyn rhywfaint o esiampl Gwlad y Basg, lle mae yna gefnogaeth i fyfyrwyr sydd efallai'n siarad Sbaeneg i wella a gloywi eu sgiliau Basgeg nhw cyn cychwyn ar y cwrs hyfforddi athrawon. Er eu bod nhw'n mynd i ddysgu mewn ysgol Saesneg, os oes gyda nhw hyder yn eu sgiliau Cymraeg, os ydyn nhw wedi eu datblygu am dair mis, neu chwe mis, neu hyd yn oed 12 mis, cyn cychwyn y cwrs hyfforddi athrawon, mae yna gyfle yn fanna wedyn i wirioneddol—. Achos hyn a hyn mae modd gwneud yng nghanol y cwrs, ac mae angen gwella hwnna hefyd, ond, i rai, mae yna siawns i ddweud wrth y bobol yma, 'Edrychwch, rŷn ni'n datblygu system addysg ddwyieithog, lle mae pawb yn cael cyfle i ddatblygu sgiliau Cymraeg; mae'r cwricwlwm yna.' Felly, dyna'r ffordd y buaswn i'n awyddus i'n gweld ni'n datblygu.
There are two things, and if the chief executive of the National Centre for Learning Welsh was with us, as was expected before she moved on to other things, she would have talked about the Cymraeg Gwaith programme, the sabbatical programme. There are initiatives there, but they do need to be expanded.
We also need to consider whether we follow some of the examples of the Basque Country, where there is support for students who speak Spanish to improve their Basque language skills before starting teacher training. Although they're going to teach in an English-medium school, if they have confidence in their Welsh language skills, if they've developed them for three months, six months, or 12 months even, before starting initial teacher training, then there's an opportunity there to—. Because there's only so much you can do as the course is progressing, and that needs to be improved too, but, for some, there is an opportunity to say, 'Look, we are developing a bilingual education system, where everyone has an opportunity to develop Welsh language skills; we have the curriculum in place.' That's how I would like to see us develop.
Mae pawb eisiau dod i mewn. Ocê. Rwyf i'n meddwl roedd Angharad wedi rhoi ei llaw i fyny yn gyntaf. Angharad.
Everybody wants to come in. Okay. I think Angharad raised her hand first. Angharad.
Rwy'n ffeinidio mai un o'r heriau sydd angen inni ddelio hefo fo o ran y sector Saesneg ydy'r ffaith ein bod ni angen uwchsgilio'r staff os ydyn ni, fel mae'r cwricwlwm yn nodi, eisiau cynyddu faint o Gymraeg sy'n cael ei chyflwyno mewn ffordd naturiol i'r plant ar draws y cwricwlwm o flynyddoedd cynnar ymlaen. Mae angen sicrhau bod gan bob aelod o staff sydd yn gweithio ar draws y sector Saesneg y cyfle i ddatblygu'r sgiliau yna. Mae yna amryw o gyrsiau sydd yn bodoli neu wedi cael eu datblygu dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf gan y ganolfan a gan asiantaethau eraill cynt hefyd all fod o ddefnydd, tra bod angen, o bosib, ystyried ehangu defnydd y cyfnod sabothol i rai o'r athrawon yna yn y sector yna i allu datblygu'r sgiliau a'r hyder i gyflwyno'r Gymraeg.
I think one of the challenges that we need to address in terms of the English-medium sector is the fact that we need to upskill the staff if, as the curriculum notes, we want to increase the usage of Welsh and introduce it in a natural way in the curriculum from the early years onwards. There is a need to ensure that every member of staff who works across the English-medium sector has the opportunity to develop those skills. There are a number of courses that exist or have been established over the last few years either by the centre or other agencies previously that can be of use, but perhaps there's a need to extend the sabbatical scheme so that some of the teachers in that sector can develop their skills and confidence to teach through the medium of Welsh.
Diolch. Aled.
Thank you. Aled.
Jest ategu pob dim sydd wedi cael ei ddweud yn gynharach, ond efallai'r cam cyntaf, yn hytrach na disgwyl i bob person sydd ddim yn gallu'r iaith i uwchsgilio'r iaith, ydy eu bod nhw yn sicr yn codi ymwybyddiaeth am yr iaith Gymraeg a'i phwysigrwydd mewn addysg ac yn yr economi yng Nghymru a'r cyfleon mae'r iaith yn eu cynnig. Mi ellir rhannu hynny efo unrhyw ddisgybl, boed o'n ddi-Gymraeg neu yn Gymraeg. Mae codi ymwybyddiaeth athrawon di-Gymraeg o bwysigrwydd yr iaith yn gam cyntaf tan nes ydym ni'n gallu sortio'r her a'r panasea o gael pawb yn gallu dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.
Just to echo everything that's already been said, but perhaps the first step, rather than expecting everyone who can't speak Welsh to upsklll, is that they should certainly raise awareness of the Welsh language and its importance in education and in the Welsh economy and the opportunities provided by the language. Now, that can be shared with any pupil, be that pupil Welsh speaking or non-Welsh speaking. Raising the awareness of non-Welsh-speaking teachers of the importance of the language is an important first step until we can actually achieve that panacea of getting everyone teaching through the medium of Welsh.
Diolch, Aled.
Thank you, Aled.
Ocê. Ail gwestiwn: rhan o'r broses o ddatblygu darpariaeth yn y sector cyfrwng Saesneg yw bod ysgolion yn symud yn ôl continwwm, fel eu bod nhw'n mynd o gyfrwng Saesneg i ddwyieithog ac wedyn o ddwyieithog i gyfrwng Cymraeg. Ydy hwnna'n digwydd a pha dystiolaeth sydd gennych chi fod awdurdodau lleol yn gwneud hwnna yn y WESPs ac, os dŷn nhw ddim, beth all newid i sicrhau bod hwnna'n digwydd?
Okay. A second question: part of the process of developing provision in the English-medium sector is that schools move along the language continuum, so they're going from English medium to bilingual, then bilingual to Welsh medium. Is that happening and what evidence do you have that local authorities are doing that in the WESPs, and, if not, what needs to change to ensure that that does happen?
Mae hwnna'n gwestiwn polisi mawr iawn. Os oedd gyda ni rhai oriau, rwy'n siŵr y bydden ni'n gallu cael seminar ar y cwestiwn yna—[Chwerthin.]
It's a major policy question. If we had hours, I'm sure we could have a seminar on this—[Laughter.]
Os ŷn ni'n gallu cael yr ateb mor gryno â phosib.
If we can get the answer as succinct as possible.
Ond yr ateb cryno yw bod hi'n digwydd ar hyn o bryd mewn rhai mannau lle mae'r Gymraeg yn iaith gymunedol gref. Dyw e ddim yn digwydd yn eang iawn, er bod yna gynlluniau i wneud hynny mewn rhai mannau eraill. Ond, er mwyn gallu symud ar hyd y continwwm, mae'n rhaid i'r fframwaith fod yn gywir, ac mae'n rhaid i fframwaith achredu y canolfannau hyfforddi athrawon, er enghraifft, y mae'r Llywodraeth yn edrych arno ar hyn o bryd—. Faint o sylw fydd i'r Gymraeg yn yr ochr cyfrwng Saesneg yn y fframwaith achredu a gwaith y bwrdd achredu fydd yn digwydd yn ystod y flwyddyn nesaf nawr? Felly, mae yna gyfle i gael y sgyrsiau yna nawr.
But the succinct answer is that it's happening at the moment in some areas where the Welsh language is a strong community language. It isn't happening broadly, although there are plans to do that in some other areas. But, in order to move along the continuum, the framework has to be right, and the accreditation framework of teacher training centres, for example, that the Government is currently looking at—. How much attention will be given to the Welsh language in the English-medium sector in the accreditation framework and in the work of the accreditation boards that will happen over the next year? So, there is an opportunity to have those conversations now.
Gyda llaw, os oes mwy o fanylder rydych chi eisiau anfon atom ni yn ysgrifenedig, byddai hynny'n rhywbeth y byddem ni'n gwerthfawrogi'n fawr iawn. Croeso i chi ysgrifennu atom ni, achos rydyn ni'n gwybod bod hwn yn bwnc helaeth. Ond, os oes unrhyw beth cryno rydych chi eisiau ei ddweud nawr, mae croeso i chi wneud. Na, rydych chi'n hapus i ysgrifennu. Ocê, gret. Ocê, ffantastig. Fe wnawn ni symud, yn olaf, at Buffy Williams.
By the way, if you want to give us any more information and detail in writing, we would appreciate that. You're welcome to write to us, because we know this is an extensive area. But, if there's something brief you want to say now, you're more than welcome to. No, you're happy to write. Great. Fantastic. We'll finally move on, finally, to Buffy Williams.
Diolch, Chair. Thank you all for joining us this morning. Could you tell us what engagement takes place between local authorities and stakeholders in the development of WESPs, and what role do stakeholders play in supporting the delivery of local authority targets, please?
Fe wnaf i fynd at Angharad yn gyntaf, a wedyn Aled. Ocê. Angharad.
I'll go to Angharad first, and then Aled. Okay. Angharad.
Rwy'n credu mai un o'r pethau y mae angen ei ystyried yn hyn ydy bod hyn yn wahanol ar draws y 22 awdurdod lleol. Mewn rhai awdurdodau, rydyn ni fel mudiad wedi eistedd o gwmpas y bwrdd gyda'r awdurdod lleol yna. Mae enghreifftiau da yn dod o'r gogledd, yn siroedd y gogledd orllewin, lle maen nhw wedi eistedd lawr o'r pwynt cynllunio, datblygu, maen nhw wedi creu grwpiau gwaith ar addysg sy'n edrych ar ddarnau penodol o'r WESPs wrth eu rhoi nhw ar waith i wneud y datblygiadau. Mae yna enghreifftiau mewn siroedd eraill hefyd, mewn ardaloedd eraill, lle mae pobl yn eistedd lawr o gwmpas y bwrdd, maen nhw'n trafod beth ydy'r cynlluniau datblygu ysgolion, ac rydyn ni'n gallu gweithio am yn ôl o ran ble mae angen sefydlu a chynyddu capasiti cylchoedd meithrin a gofal Cymraeg ar lawr gwlad i greu'r galw ar gyfer yr addysg Gymraeg. Mewn llefydd eraill, mae'r sgyrsiau yna'n digwydd ar ôl i'r sir wneud y penderfyniadau, a dyw pethau ddim mor hawdd i lincio mewn at ei gilydd, achos dydyn ni ddim bob tro yn gwybod beth ydy'r blaenoriaethau datblygiadol sydd gyda nhw, a'n bod ni wedi bod angen rhoi pethau ar waith yn gynharach. So, mae yn amrywio. Os ydych chi eisiau mwy o wybodaeth ar hynny, o bosib mae hynny'n golygu gofyn i cwestiwn yna i bobl sydd yn gweithio ar lawr gwlad yn y 22 awdurdod lleol i gael trosolwg o hynny.
I think that one of the things that needs to be considered here is that this is different across the 22 local authorities. In some authorities, we as an organisation have sat around the table with that local authority. Some good examples are coming from the north, in counties in the north-west, where they've sat down from the planning stages, development stages, they've created education working groups looking at particular parts of the WESPs when implementing them to make the developments. There are examples in other counties, in other areas, where people do gather around the table, and they do discuss what the school development programmes are, and we can work backwards from that to see where we need to enhance the provision of cylchoedd meithrin and Welsh language childcare on the ground, to generate the demand for the Welsh-medium education. In other areas, those conversations happen after the authority has made its decisions, and things aren't as easy to link in then, because we don't always know what the developmental priorities that they have are, and we would have needed to put things in place earlier. So, it does vary. If you want more information on that, then perhaps you would need to ask that question to those working on the ground in the 22 local authorities to get an overview of it.
Diolch, Angharad. Aled, roeddech chi eisiau dod mewn hefyd.
Thank you, Angharad. Aled, you wanted to come in.
Ie, 'amrywiol', dwi'n meddwl, ydy'r ateb buaswn i'n rhoi i hwnna, Buffy. Mae yna rai awdurdodau’n gweithio'n agos iawn efo colegau addysg bellach. Mae yna un coleg yn ne-orllewin Cymru y mae eu cynllun addysg Gymraeg nhw rŵan yn rhan o'r WESP, oherwydd eu bod nhw wedi bod yn rhan annatod o ddatblygu'r WESP. Dwi'n bennaeth ar goleg lle mae gyda ni brofiadau hollol wahanol ar draws tri awdurdod. Dydyn ni ddim hyd yn oed ar un o bwyllgorau monitro'r WESP mewn un awdurdod a dydyn nhw ddim wedi ymgynghori efo ni o gwbl; mae awdurdod arall wedi ymgynghori’n sylweddol efo ni ac rydyn ni wedi rhoi geiriad ar gyfer y WESP; ac mae yna un arall wedi ymgynghori efo ni ac wedi anwybyddu beth rydym ni wedi ei ddweud. Felly, mae'r profiadau ar draws y sector yn amrywio o fewn sefydliad ac o fewn lleoliadau. Ond, yn sicr, dwi'n meddwl bod yna le i wella ar yr ymgynghori, ond ddim jest ymgynghori, y cydweithio a'r cyd-baratoi, os ydyn ni o ddifrif eisiau gweld dilyniant o addysg statudol i addysg ôl-orfodol.
Yes, 'varying' is the answer, I would say, Buffy. Some authorities work very closely with further education colleges. There's one college in south-west Wales whose Welsh-medium education plan is now part of the WESP, because they have been integral part of developing the WESP. I'm head of a college where we've got totally different experiences across three authorities. We're not even on one of the WESP monitoring committees in one authority and they haven't consulted with us at all; another authority has consulted with us extensively and we've provided a wording for the WESP; and another one has consulted us and ignored what we've said. So, the experiences across the sector vary within an organisation and within settings. But, certainly, I think there is room for improvement on the consultation, and not just consultation, but the joint working and the joint preparation, if we want to see a continuum from from statutory education to post-compulsory education.
Yes, thank you. Thank you, very interesting. Could you tell us what is the impact of the 10-year education workforce plan on the pre- and post-compulsory school age sector and how can we ensure a sufficient flow of Welsh-medium staff to allow local authorities to deliver on their plans?
Okay. Dafydd.
If I may, Buffy, that's an excellent question. I think the Welsh Government has recently published its 10-year plan. I've suggested it's an incrementalist plan. It's a step-by-step plan. The Government has indicated its confidence that it will achieve the goals set out. I think I'm not so sure, to be honest with you, because of that gap from 250 teachers being trained every year to teach through the medium of Welsh to 600. That is a big, big chasm that needs to be forded, and I'm not sure we're in the position to do so yet. We'll be working, the coleg Cymraeg will be working hard with the Government and the EWC to make progress on these, but we may need to look at some of those more innovative solutions from other countries to see whether we can make even further progress on that 10-year plan.
Thank you.
Ocê. Diolch am hynna. Angharad, os gallech chi fod mor gryno â phosib. Ac mae'n flin gen i, dwi'n gwybod bod hwn yn bwnc rili mawr eto. Byddwn ni'n gofyn i chi ysgrifennu atom ni gyda mwy o fanylder. Angharad.
Thank you for that. Angharad, if you could be as brief as possible. And I do apologise, I know that this is a massive subject, again. But, we will ask you to write to us with more detail. Angharad.
Dwi'n credu un o'r pethau i'w nodi hefyd ydy bod angen ystyried, os oes cynllun i ddatblygu a chynyddu nifer yn sylweddol mewn un adran o'r gweithlu gofal addysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, mae yna knock-on effect ar gyfer ehangder y sector yn yr adrannau sydd naill ochr i hynny hefyd. So, os ydyn ni'n atynnu pobl i weithio fel athrawon yn yr ysgolion, sydd yn cael ei gweld fel swydd statws uchel, mae hynny wedyn yn tynnu pobl, o bosib, fyddai wedi hyfforddi i fod yn gweithio yn y sector gofal plant neu ôl-statudol lle mae'r cytundebau gwaith a'r cyflogau ddim o reidrwydd i'r un lefel.
One of the things to note too is that we need to consider, if there's a plan to significantly increase the numbers available to work through the medium of Welsh in one area of the care sector, then there's a knock-on effect on other parts of the sector. So, if we attract people to work as teachers in schools, and that's seen as a relatively high-status position, that then removes people who may have trained to work in the childcare sector, or the post-statutory sector, where salaries and working conditions aren't necessarily at the same level.
Ffantastig. Mae'n flin gen i i bawb bod amser wedi'n trechu ni'r bore yma, ond mae hwnna i gyd wedi bod yn rili ddefnyddiol. Byddwn ni yn ysgrifennu atoch chi i ofyn am fwy o fanylder ar rai o'r pynciau doedden ni ddim wedi cael cyfle i'w cyrraedd, ond dŷn ni'n ddiolchgar iawn i chi am y dystiolaeth y bore yma. Bydd transgript o'r hyn sydd wedi cael ei ddweud yn cael ei anfon atoch chi i'w wirio hefyd, ond, am nawr, diolch yn fawr iawn am hynna.
Aelodau, byddwn ni nawr yn cymryd egwyl fer iawn tan 11:55. Diolch.
Fantastic. I do apologise, but time has defeated us this morning, but that's been very interesting and useful indeed. We will certainly write to you to ask for more details on some of the issues that we hadn't touched upon, but we are very grateful to you for your evidence this morning. There will be a transcript sent to you so that you can check that, but, for now, thank you very much.
Members, we will now take a very short break until 11:55—we'll return at 11:55. Thank you.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 11:46 ac 11:55.
The meeting adjourned between 11:46 and 11:55.
Croeso nôl i'r sesiwn yma o'r pwyllgor. Dŷn ni'n symud yn syth at eitem 6. Dŷn ni'n cario ymlaen gyda'n hymchwiliad i mewn i gynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg. Yn ein sesiynau y bore yma ac yn mynd i mewn i'r prynhawn yma, bydd sesiynau tystiolaeth gyda blynyddoedd cynnar cyfrwng Cymraeg, darpariaeth ôl-16 ac oedolion sy'n dysgwyr. Awdurdodau lleol fydd y sesiwn yma nawr—mae'n flin gen i, dwi'n darllen y peth rong yn y briff.
Mae Sioned Williams yn mynd i orfod ein gadael ni'n fuan. Felly, fe wnawn ni symud, ar ôl i ni gyflwyno'r tystion, yn syth at ei chwestiwn hi. Gaf i ofyn i Darren Price gyflwyno ei hunan ar gyfer y record, plîs?
Welcome back to this session of the committee. We move straight to item 6. We're continuing with our inquiry into Welsh in education strategic plans. In our sessions this morning and into this afternoon, we have evidence sessions with Welsh-medium early years, post-16 and adult learner provision. And this session is with local authorities now—I apologise, I am reading the wrong thing in the brief.
Sioned Williams has to leave the meeting shortly, so we'll move to her questions after introducing the witnesses. May I ask Darren Price to introduce himself for the record, please?
Yn sicr. Diolch, Cadeirydd. Darren Price, llefarydd ar yr iaith Gymraeg ar ran Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Diolch.
Yes, thank you, Chair. I'm Darren Price, Welsh language spokesperson for the Welsh Local Government Association.
Diolch, Darren. Gwnaf i ofyn i Meinir nesaf, plîs.
Thank you, Darren. I'll ask Meinir to introduce herself next.
Meinir Ebbsworth, ar ran Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, prif swyddog addysg Cyngor Sir Ceredigion.
I'm Meinir Ebbsworth, on behalf of the WLGA, and chief education officer at Cyngor Sir Ceredigion.
Diolch am hwnna, Meinir. Gwnaf i fynd yn syth at Sioned Williams.
Thank you for that, Meinir. I'll go immediately to Sioned Williams.
Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd, a phrynhawn da. Eisiau holi oeddwn i i ddechrau: ydy awdurdodau lleol yn cytuno gyda datganiad Gweinidog y Gymraeg ac Addysg bod cynlluniau i dyfu addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg dros y 10 mlynedd nesaf mor uchelgeisiol ac y gallant fod? Os nad ŷch chi'n cytuno, allech chi esbonio pam nad ŷch chi'n cytuno?
Thank you, Chair. Good afternoon. I wanted to ask at the beginning if local authorities agree with the statement made by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language that plans to grow Welsh-medium education over the next 10 years are as ambitious as they can be? If you don't agree, could you explain why you don't agree with that?
Beth dwi'n mynd i ofyn i chi wneud fan hyn, os dŷch chi eisiau dod i mewn ar bwnc, os gallech chi jest codi llaw. Does dim tystion gyda ni yn yr ystafell, felly byddwn ni ond yn edrych arnoch chi ar y sgrin. Pwy sydd eisiau mynd yn gyntaf ar hyn? Meinir.
What I'll ask you to do is to indicate if you want to come in at any point. We have no witnesses in the room, so we'll be looking at the screen. Who'd like to go first? Meinir.
Diolch yn fawr. Dwi'n credu ein bod ni'n gallu siarad, wrth gwrs, ar ran awdurdodau lleol unigol, o ran ein cynlluniau ni, ond yn sicr o ran casgliad o gynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg, mae pob un ohonyn nhw'n mynd i fod yn perthyn i'w gyd-destun, a'u huchelgais nhw yn perthyn i'w cyd-destun. Felly, yn naturiol, fyddwn i ddim yn disgwyl gweld uchelgais sydd yn edrych yr un peth oherwydd bod yr uchelgais yna'n mynd i fod oddi fewn i'r twf oddi fewn i'r cyngor hwnnw. Ond yn sicr, un o'r pethau sydd wedi bod yn fantais i ni eleni drwy'r broses hon yw gweld y Llywodraeth yn gosod y targedau hynny droston ni mewn nifer o'r deilliannau. Felly, i ryw raddau, pan mae'r cynlluniau yma'n cael eu cytuno a'u cyflwyno, mae hynny'n ymwneud ag ateb ai peidio'r targedau y mae'r Llywodraeth wedi'u gosod i ni mewn rhai o'r deilliannau.
Nawr, mater arall yw a fyddai angen, i'r dyfodol, sicrhau rychwant ehangach o dargedau ble mae'r Llywodraeth yn eu gosod nhw. Mewn rhai meysydd, gosodwyd y targedau yna eleni, er enghraifft, addysg i blant saith oed drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, pump oed trwy gyfrwng Gymraeg; a oes modd ehangu ar hynny i sicrhau mwy o uchelgais posibl eto? Mae'n rhywbeth i'w ystyried, rwy'n siŵr.
Thank you very much. I think we can speak on behalf of individual local authorities in terms of our own, but as a group of WESPs, each of them will have their own context and their own ambition related to that context. So, naturally, I wouldn't expect to see the same ambition across the board, because that ambition will have to be set out within the growth in that particular authority. But one of the things that's been of benefit to us this year through this process is to see the Government setting those targets for us in a number of the outcomes. So, to a certain extent, when these plans are agreed and presented, then that relates to whether we are meeting or otherwise some of the targets set out for us by the Government in some of the outcomes.
Now, it's another matter as to whether, for the future, we would need a broader range of targets set by Government, because it's only in certain areas that those targets were set for this year. For example, Welsh-medium education for children at seven years of age and five years of age. So, can that be expanded to ensure greater ambition? That's something to be considered, I'm sure.
Darren, ydych chi eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn?
Darren, do you want to come in on this?
Yn sicr. Rwy'n credu bod Meinir wedi sôn yn fras fanna, mae'r cyd-destun, wrth gwrs, yn wahanol o gyngor i gyngor. Byddwn ni'n disgwyl, efallai, i'r targedau adlewyrchu hynny. I roi bach o gyd-destun, er enghraifft, ar y moment, rŷn ni yn sir Gâr yn darparu addysg gyfrwng Gymraeg i ryw 58 y cant o ddisgyblion blwyddyn 1. Wel, cymharwch hwnna gyda, dywedwch, Casnewydd, sy'n agosach at ryw 5 y cant. Mae yna wahaniaeth mawr yn y cyd-destun hynny, ac felly mae hwnna'n ffactor pwysig wrth i ni sôn am y targedau yma.
Ond, wrth gwrs, y nod yn gyffredinol yw symud pob sir, onid e, ar hyd y daith. Ac fel yr oedd Meinir yn sôn, rwy'n credu bod cynghorau yn gyffredinol yn hapus gyda'r ffaith bod y targedau yn realistig, ac wrth gwrs mae'r ffaith eu bod nhw'n benodol yn help mawr gan fod modd, wedyn, i dracio'r cynnydd dros y 10 mlynedd nesaf. Diolch.
Certainly. I think Meinir has spoken about this. The context is different from council to council, and we would expect, perhaps, the targets to reflect that. To provide you with some sort of context, at the moment here in Carmarthenshire, we're providing Welsh-medium education to about 58 per cent of year 1 pupils. Compare that, say, to Newport, which is closer to about 5 per cent. There is a great difference in that context, and so that is an important factor as we're talking about these targets.
But, of course, the aim in general is to move every county along that journey. And as Meinir mentioned, I think councils in general are happy with the fact that the targets are realistic, and of course the fact that they are specific is of great help, because then you can track progress over the next 10 years. Thank you.
Diolch. Rŷch chi'n amlwg yn nodi, felly, bod yna amrywiaeth am wahanol resymau. Yn amlwg, mae rhai ohonyn nhw'n bethau sy'n ymwneud â daearyddiaeth, sy'n ymwneud ag ewyllus gwleidyddol, hwyrach, sy'n ymwneud ag adnoddau, ac yn y blaen. Felly, beth yn gyffredinol ŷch chi'n teimlo yw'r testunau pryder i chi o ran os oes yna ddiffyg uchelgais? Ydyw e'n ymwneud â ffactorau fel dwi wedi rhestru, neu oes yna rywbeth arall ar waith fan hyn, ac oes yna ryw fodd y gellid mynd i'r afael â'r amrywiaeth yna?
Thank you. Clearly, you note therefore that there is variation for different reasons. Clearly, some of them relate to geography, political will, perhaps, resources, and so forth. Therefore, in general, what do you feel are the areas of concern for you in terms of if there is a lack of ambition? Does it relate to the factors that I have outlined, or is there something else at work here, and is there a way of addressing that variation?
Meinir.
Eto, rwy'n credu mai un o'r pethau fyddai'n medru mynd i'r afael gydag unrhyw amrywiaeth posibl fyddai, efallai, aliniad o rai pethau yn fwy strategol. Er enghraifft, pan oedd awdurdodau yn ysgrifennu'r cynlluniau yma, doedd y categoreiddio i ysgolion ddim wedi cael ei gyhoeddi ar y pryd. Mae hynny wedi cryfhau, rwy'n meddwl y nôl a mlaen fu rhwng awdurdodau a Llywodraeth wrth dderbyn y CSCAau yma o ran cael fframwaith benodol o ddiffinio categoreiddio ysgolion. Ond, efallai, cam ymhellach i hynny byddai'r sicrwydd o un continwwm iaith genedlaethol, lle nad yw hynny yn fframwaith i ysgolion ail iaith yn unig, ond yn wir gontinwwm di-dor, gydol oed—byddwn i hefyd yn dadlau, a bod yn onest—byddai hynny wir yn medru cryfhau pob agwedd ar gynllunio, oherwydd wedyn byddai'ch cynnig dysgu proffesiynol chi yn ymwneud yn gwbl uniongyrchol gyda ble ar y continwwm mae'r anghenion datblygu.
Mi fyddai pethau megis y cwmni hyd braich yma, Adnodd, sydd yn mynd i gael ei sefydlu, wedyn yn darparu adnoddau yn ymwneud yn benodol iawn â'r continwwm. Mae'r fframwaith yma o gontinwwm, yn ein barn ni, yn hanfodol mewn gwirionedd wrth symud ymlaen, a dyna fydd y ffrâm fwyaf pwysig i ni, rwy'n credu, er mwyn sicrhau cynnydd. Mae'r categoreiddio'n un cam i'r cyfeiriad cywir, heb amheuaeth, ond mae'r categorïau hynny angen continwwm fel seilwaith iddyn nhw.
A'r ail beth wedyn, yn sicr iawn, yw bod cyllidebau, bod grantiau—grantiau awdurdodau lleol a grantiau sydd efallai yn mynd i ranbarthau neu sefydliadau eraill—bod y rheini hefyd yn rhan o'r seilwaith yma ble maen nhw'n cael eu targedu tuag at naill ai ysgolion yn symud rhwng categorïau, neu ar hyd y continwwm, er mwyn bod ein hadnoddau ni yn targedu'n twf ni.
Again, I think that one of the things that could tackle any variety would be an alignment of certain things more strategically. For example, when local authorities were drawing up these plans, the school categorisation hadn't been published. Now, I think that has strengthened the relations between authorities and Government in actually approving these WESPs in defining the categories of schools. But, a step further in that regard would be the existence of a single language continuum across Wales, where that isn't simply a framework for the second-language sector, but an ongoing continuum across the board. That would certainly strengthen all aspects of planning, because then your professional learning offer would relate specifically to where on the continuum the development needs are.
Things such as this arm's-length company, Adnodd, that's to be established, that would then provide resources related very specifically to the continuum. This framework of continuum, in our view, is crucial as we move forward, and that will be the most important framework for us in securing progress. Categorisation is one step in the right direction, there's no doubt about that, but those categories need to be on a continuum as a foundation for them.
The second thing is that budgets and grants—grants for local authorities and grants that are provided to regions or other organisations—that those too should be part of this framework, where they are targeted either towards schools moving between categories, or along the continuum, so that our resources target growth.
Diolch.
Thank you.
Diolch. Darren, oeddech chi eisiau dod i mewn?
Thank you. Darren, did you want to come in here?
Ie, yn sicr. Rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig nodi hefyd, rŷm ni'n sôn am y cyd-destun lleol, wrth gwrs, ac mae daearyddiaeth ieithyddol y siroedd yma'n wahanol iawn. Mae eu hanes nhw yn wahanol iawn, ac rwy'n credu bod yna arfer da, efallai, yn rhai ardaloedd lle maen nhw'n hyrwyddo a marchnata manteision y Gymraeg, a'r ffaith bod hyn yn sgil, bod hyn yn agor drysau, efallai, yn ddiwylliannol, yn ychwanegol i'r byd gwaith, wrth gwrs, ar lefel broffesiynol. Rwy'n credu bod hwnna'n ganolog i lwyddiant y cynlluniau yma, ac rwy'n credu bod yna rôl gan y Llywodraeth ar lefel genedlaethol fan hyn i sicrhau bod y neges yna'n cael ei hyrwyddo ar draws y wlad. Ac mi fydd hynny wedyn, wrth gwrs, yn bwydo'r galw am addysg Gymraeg ar draws Cymru—mae hwnna'n rhywbeth pwysig, rwy'n credu.
Ar yr ail beth yr oedd Meinir yn sôn am ynglŷn â chategoreiddio, rwy'n cytuno bod y system newydd yna yn dda o beth. Yn lleol, wrth gwrs, yr esiampl yn sir Gâr yw rŷm ni wrthi ar y foment gyda'r cynghorau ar draws Cymru i gytuno gydag ysgolion ar y categori cyfredol. Ond, wrth gwrs, rŷm ni hefyd fel rhan o'r broses yna yn trafod gyda'r ysgolion beth yw'r categori her. Hynny yw, ble rŷm ni'n credu liciem ni weld chi mewn 10 mlynedd, a beth sy'n realistig wrth feddwl am y pwysau ynglŷn â'r gweithlu a datblygu'r gweithlu, a'r ochr [Anghlywadwy.] wrth gwrs. Felly, mae'r potensial yna, rwy'n credu, i gael trafodaethau nawr gyda'r system newydd categoreiddio i feddwl dim jest ble rŷm ni'n awr, ond ar ran bob ysgol, beth yw'r categori her yna ymhen 10 mlynedd. Diolch.
Yes, certainly. I think it's important to note also, we've been talking about the local context, but also the linguistic geography of these counties is different. Their history is different, and I think there is good practice in some areas where they're promoting and marketing, perhaps, the advantages of the Welsh language, and the fact that this is a skill, that this does open doors culturally, in addition to the workplace, of course, on a professional level. I think that that is central to the future and the success of these plans, and I think that there is a role for Government at a national level to ensure that that message is promoted across the country. And then, that will feed the demand for Welsh-medium education across Wales—that is important, I think.
Secondly, Meinir mentioned categorisation; I agree that the new system is a good thing. Locally, as an example in Carmarthenshire, at the moment, we are working with councils across Wales to agree with schools on the current categories. But also, as part of that process, we're discussing with schools what the challenge category is. That is, where we would like to see them in 10 years' time, what's realistic in thinking of the pressure and of developing the workforce and the [Inaudible.] side, of course. Therefore, the potential is there, I think, to have discussions with the new categorisation system to think not just of where we are now, but on behalf of every school, what that challenge category is in 10 years. Thank you.
Diolch. Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Heledd Fychan.
Thank you. We'll move on to Heledd Fychan.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Prynhawn da i chi i gyd. Eisiau holi oeddwn i—dŷch chi wedi dechrau ar hyn yn rhai o'ch ymatebion cychwynnol—ond allwch chi ymhelaethu ar a ydych chi'n credu bod y fframwaith ddeddfwriaethol a'r polisi presennol o ran y WESP yn darparu'r model mwyaf effeithiol i gyflawni targedau Cymraeg 2050?
Thank you very much. Good afternoon. I wanted to ask—you have given some initial responses to this question—but could you tell us whether you think that the current legislative framework in terms of the WESP provides the most effective model to deliver against the Cymraeg 2050 targets?
Meinir.
Mae'r fframwaith yn dynnach na beth mae e wedi bod, ac rŷn ni'n croesawu, efallai, y gwelliannau hynny i'r fframweithiau, ac yn croesawu y rhychwant targedau a roddwyd i ni, i rai deilliannau a oedd, fel roeddwn i'n dweud, yn sicrhau yr uchelgais hynny. A dwi'n credu hefyd byddai fe'n deg i nodi ein bod ni'n teimlo bod yna gryfhau wedi bod yn y gefnogaeth i awdurdodau lleol wrth lunio'u CSGAu, oddi wrth timoedd yn y Llywodraeth. Mae hynny'n sicr wedi ei gryfhau.
Fel fframwaith, o ran y saith deilliant, mae e'n bosib bod rhai deilliannau angen mwy o sylw na'i gilydd mewn rhai awdurdodau. Er enghraifft, yma i ni yn lleol, mae'r deilliannau yn ymwneud â TGAU a lefel A, a chynnydd yn y fan honno yn bethau efallai sydd mwy o bwys i ni na rhai materion eraill oddi fewn i'r deilliannau. Ond efallai bod y fframwaith, wrth gwrs, yn rhoi'r union un deilliannau i bawb, ble efallai bod sylweddoliad bod pwysoli, os liciwch chi, rhai o'r deilliannau yma, neu mwy o ffocws dwys o ran rhai o'r deilliannau yma, yn fwy angenrheidiol mewn rhai llefydd nag eraill.
The framework is more robust than it has been, and we welcome those improvements to the framework, and we welcome the range of targets provided to us against some outcomes that secured that ambition. And I also think that it would be fair to note that we feel that there has been a strengthening in support for local authorities in drawing up the WESPs, and that's come from Government itself.
As a framework, in terms of the seven outcomes, then it's possible that some need more attention than others in certain local authorities. For example, for us locally, the outcomes relate to GCSE and A-level, and those are perhaps more important to us than some other aspects. But perhaps the framework does provide the same outcomes for everyone, and there perhaps is a realisation that providing weighting for some of these outcomes, or focusing more on some outcomes, is more necessary in certain parts of the country than others.
Diolch, Meinir. Darren.
Ie, yn sicr, a dwi'n credu yr elfen bwysig gyda'r system newydd yw bod y cynllunio yma yn cymryd lle dros gyfnod o ddeng mlynedd, ac mae hwnna'n beth positif, dwi'n credu. Mae e'n rhoi mwy a amser a mwy o gyfle, efallai, i awdurdodau oresgyn rhai o'r heriau, fel yr oeddem ni'n sôn am staffio a chyllideb—mae'r ddau beth yna'n ganolog i'r drafodaeth yma, dwi'n credu. Mae hwnna'n rhywbeth sy'n bwydo trwyddo ym mhob elfen o'r CSCAau, ac felly mae hwnna'n beth da.
Y risg, efallai, yw, o achos eu bod nhw'n dargedau 10 mlynedd, fod yna slippage, fel petai, ac felly, o'm barn i, dwi'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig bod y monitro yna ar lefel genedlaethol yn gyson ac yn rheolaidd. Achos, yn amlwg, dyw'r cynnydd ddim yn mynd i fod yn linear; dyna fel mae e'n cael ei gyflwyno yn aml, wrth gwrs, o gyngor i gyngor, ond y realiti yw, fel rŷn ni'n gwybod, step fydd hi, a bydd yna ymyrraeth benodol mewn ambell i flwyddyn fydd yn delifro cynnydd sylweddol, ac wedyn mewn blwyddyn arall, efallai ddim cweit. Felly, mae'r monitro parhaol yma, ac yn rheolaidd, yn mynd i fod yn hollbwysig wrth i'r cynllun ddatblygu. Diolch.
Certainly. I think the important element with the new system is the fact that these plans happen over a period of 10 years, and that is a positive thing, I think. It provides more time and more opportunity for authorities to overcome some of the challenges. Of course, we were talking about staffing and budgeting—both those issues are central to this discussion, I think. That is something that feeds through in every element of the WESPs, and therefore that is a good thing.
The risk, perhaps, is that, because they are 10-year targets, there is slippage, so to speak, and in my view, it's important that that monitoring on a national level is consistent and regular. Because, clearly, the progress isn't going to be linear; that's how it is presented quite often, from council to council, but the reality is, as we know, it will be stepped, and there will be specific intervention in one year that will deliver significant progress, and in another year, it won't quite be the same. So, that continuous monitoring and regular monitoring is going to be vital, as the plan develops. Thank you.
Heledd.
Gaf i jest holi'n bellach, felly, o ran y monitro? Ydych chi'n meddwl bod angen sail ddeddfwriaethol gryfach os ydy'r monitro'n dangos bod y targedau ddim yn cael eu cyflawni wrth i'r cynllun gael ei weithredu dros y 10 mlynedd hynny?
If I could just ask you further in terms of the monitoring, do you think that there needs to be a stronger legislative foundation, if the monitoring demonstrates that the targets aren't being delivered, as the plan is implemented over 10 years?
Mae Meinir eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn. Ydyn ni'n gallu dadfiwtio Meinir, plîs? Diolch.
Meinir wants to come in at this point. Could we unmute Meinir, please?
Diolch. Dwi'n cytuno'n llwyr gyda Chynghorydd Price yn fanna, mae'r darn ynglŷn â'r monitro a'r atebolrwydd yna ar gynghorau yn hynod o bwysig, ac efallai rhai o'r pethau deddfwriaethol gellid eu hystyried, er enghraifft, yw bod yna adroddiad blynyddol yn mynd i gabinet pob cyngor sir yn ymwneud â chynnydd yn erbyn y CSCAau. Opsiwn neu arfer dda yw hynny ar hyn o bryd, nid yn rheidrwydd, ac mi fyddai hwnna'n rhywbeth o ran dwyn atebolrwydd ar wasanaethau ac yn y blaen, ond yn sicrhau'r tryloywder cyhoeddus yna o fynd â nhw gerbron y cabinet. Ond mae'r rôl honno, o ran atebolrwydd, mae e gyda'n rheoleiddwyr ni, wrth gwrs, ac mae e gydag Estyn. Ond un peth efallai gellid ei ystyried o fewn cylch gorchwyl Estyn yw bod y CSCAau a'r monitro o'r rheini yn digwydd yn flynyddol, neu bob dwy flynedd, drwy reoleiddwyr allanol. Maen nhw, wrth gwrs, yn cael eu cynnwys oddi fewn i adroddiadau awdurdodau lleol, pan fo Estyn yn ymweld, ond hynny, wrth gwrs, yn gylch, ar hyn o bryd, bob ryw bump i chwe blynedd. Felly, a oes angen rhywbeth mwy cyson, mwy miniog, oddi ar reoleiddwyr, boed nhw'n Estyn neu rywun arall, yn fater i'w ystyried, dwi'n credu, o ran tryloywder ac atebolrwydd.
Thank you. I agree entirely with Councillor Price, the work on monitoring and accountability is very important indeed for councils, and some of the legislative steps that could be considered, perhaps, is that there should be an annual report submitted to every authority cabinet in terms of progress against the WESP. That's a matter of good practice at the moment, not a requirement, and that would be something that could enhance accountability on services and so on, but would certainly provide that public transparency of taking that report before cabinet. But that role, in terms of accountability, sits with our regulators, with Estyn. But one of the things that could be considered, within the remit of Estyn, is that the WESPs and the monitoring of the WESPs should happen annually, or every two years, through external regulators. Of course, they are included within local authoriity reports when Estyn do visit, but that, at the moment, is a five-to-six-year cycle. So, do we need something more regular and more refined from a regulator, be that Estyn or somebody else, and that's an issue for consideration, I think, in terms of transparency and accountability.
Diolch.
Dwi'n meddwl efallai roedd Alun eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn.
I think perhaps that Alun wanted to come in on this.
Ie. Dwi'n dilyn trywydd Heledd, actually, achos mae lot fawr o'r tystion dŷn ni wedi'u clywed yn dweud does dim lot o hyder gyda nhw bod llywodraeth leol yn gallu delifro hyn ar lefel genedlaethol, a bod angen mwy o ddeddfwriaeth i fynnu bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn eich monitro chi. Achos, ar ddiwedd y dydd, mae amrywiaeth—mi fuasech chi wedi'i drafod ac mi fuasech chi wedi disgwyl, mewn gwlad fel Cymru, a dydy e ddim yn adlewyrchu amrwyiaeth Cymru, ond yn adlewyrchu methiant cynghorau yng Nghymru.
Yes. I'm following Heledd, really, because many witnesses that we've heard say that they don't have much confidence that local government can deliver on a national level and that there's a need for more legislation to make it a requirement that the Welsh Government monitors you. Because, at the end of the day, there is variation—and you will have discussed that and you'd expect it in a country like Wales—and it doesn't reflect the variation across Wales, but reflects the failure of councils in Wales.
Pwy sydd eisiau dechrau? Meinir.
Who wants to go first? Meinir.
Yn sicr, dwi'n credu bod angen i ni fynd nôl at y broses o’r CSCAau fan hyn. Mae pob CSCA wedi cael ei fabwysiadu erbyn hyn gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ond, wrth gwrs, roedd gyda'r Llywodraeth yr opsiwn i beidio eu cymeradwyo nhw. Felly, ein dealltwriaeth ni, wrth gwrs, drwy'r llythyr diweddaraf cyn yr haf, yw bod y Llywodraeth wedi cymeradwyo’r CSCAau hynny. Felly, dwi'n credu bod hwnna'n un pwynt o ran cymeradwyaeth a'r broses gymeradwyo i ddechrau. Ond ar ôl cymeradwyo, dwi'n credu bod gyda ni'r sicrwydd yna oddi fewn i fforymau gwleidyddol a democrataidd awdurdodau i ddwyn gwasanaethau yn atebol am sicrwydd, ond fel rôn i'n ei ddweud, efallai bod angen cryfhau'r disgwyliadau ynglŷn â bod hynny efallai mewn rhai llefydd yn digwydd drwy'r fforwm iaith er enghraifft, ble, mewn llefydd eraill, mae e'n digwydd drwy'r cabinet.
Felly, beth efallai yw'r systemau cyson hynny y gellid eu defnyddio i ddwyn pobl yn atebol am weithredoedd eu CSCAau? Achos fel roedd y Cynghorydd Price yn ei ddweud, mae nhw'n gynlluniau 10 mlynedd. Mae yna botensial gydag unrhyw gynllun hirdymor eu bod nhw yn digwydd yn oes rhywun arall, ac mae eisiau sicrhau bod y cerrig milltir yma yn flynyddol, neu bob dwy flynedd, ac yn sicr iawn, iawn yn rhoi adroddiadau ein bod ni ar drac i gyrraedd y targedau yma.
Felly, eto, mae gyda ni yn hanesyddol enghreifftiau da iawn o gynghorau wedi dod i gwrdd â thargedau eu CSCAau nhw, a dwi'n credu bod rhaid i ni ddysgu o'r arferion da hynny yn ogystal, ond mae e hefyd yn ymwneud, yn fy marn i, gyda sicrwydd bod y Gymraeg yng nghanol ein gwaith ni bob tro, nid jest fel llywodraeth leol, ond ym mhob maes. Pan rŷn ni'n trafod unrhyw beth yn ymwneud ag addysg, mi ddylen ni fod yn trafod y Gymraeg yn ei chanol hi. Felly, pan rŷn ni'n siarad ynglŷn â'r cwricwlwm, pan rŷn ni'n siarad ynglŷn ag anghenion dysgu ychwanegol, mi ddylai pob un o'n diwygiadau mawr ni ym maes addysg—sy'n hanfodol ar hyn o bryd—wirioneddol fod â'r Gymraeg yn eu canol nhw, ac nid, ar adegau, ar eu hymyl nhw.
Certainly, I think we need to return to the process of the WESPs. All the WESPs have now been adopted by Welsh Government, but, of course, the Government had an option not to approve those. So, our understanding is, through the latest letter that was received before the summer, that the Government has approved every local authority's WESP. So, that is one point in terms of the approval process first of all. But, after approval, I do think that we have that assurance within local authorities' democratic fora to hold services to account, but, as I said, perhaps the expectations need to be strengthened, because that happens in some areas through the language forum, whereas in others, it happens through the cabinet.
So, what are those consistent systems that could be adopted to hold people to account for the delivery of their WESP? Because, as Councillor Price said, they are 10-year plans. There is potential for any long-term plan to be the responsibility of someone else in the future, and we need to ensure that these milestones are annual, or every two years, and that they do provide reports that we are on track to deliver against these targets.
So, again, historically, we do have some very good examples of councils that have met the targets of their WESPs, and I think we need to learn from that good practice. But it also, in my view, relates to providing assurances that the Welsh language is central to our work, not just as local authorities, but in all areas. When we discuss anything related to education, we should be discussing the Welsh language as an integral part of that, and when we're talking about the curriculum, or additional learning needs, all of our major reforms in education—which are crucial at the moment—should have the Welsh language at their heart and not at the periphery, as is the case on occasion.
Jest ar y pwynt yna, dwi'n credu bod y pwynt mae Alun Davies yn ei godi yn un dilys, onid yw e—beth sy'n digwydd os nad ŷn ni'n cyrraedd y targed? Ond, wrth gwrs, y cyd-destun yw bod y broses wleidyddol wedi bod yn ganolog i hyn. Mae cynghorau sir wedi cytuno ar y cynnwys, ac wedi cytuno bod y targedau yn rhai, fel rôn i'n sôn yn gynt, sy'n rhesymol, ac yn rhai sy'n gallu cael eu cyrraedd. Gallaf siarad ar lefel bersonol, wrth gwrs—mae yna awydd ar lefel wleidyddol i fynd ymhellach na'r targed yn sir Gâr. Ond y cwestiwn sylfaenol yw—ac mae hyn yn berthnasol i bob maes polisi gyda Llywodraeth Cymru—os ŷn ni'n ffeindio bod ambell i gyngor ddim cweit yn cyrraedd y targed, beth all Llywodraeth Cymru ei wneud mewn realiti? Rŷn ni wedi clywed dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf ambell i gyngor efallai yn methu gyda thargedau ailgylchu, er enghraifft. Ocê, mae hwnna'n statudol, ond beth yw'r gosb, fel petai? A dyna realiti y sefyllfa, rwy'n credu; o ran grymoedd y Llywodraeth, mae limit efallai i beth mae'r Llywodraeth yn gallu ei wneud os yw hynny yn dwyn ffrwyth. Ond dwi wir yn credu bod yna awydd nawr ar draws llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru i fynd i'r afael â'r agenda yma ac i ddelifro, ac i helpu Llywodraeth Cymru i ddelifro yn erbyn y targed miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg.
Just on that point, I think the point that Alun Davies raises is a valid one—what happens if we don't reach the target? But, of course, the context is that the political process has been central to this, and councils have agreed on the content, and have agreed that the targets, as I mentioned earlier, are reasonable and ones that can be achieved. I can speak on a personal level—there is a desire and the political will to go further than the target in Carmarthenshire. But the basic question is—and this is relevant to every policy area of Welsh Government—if we find that a council doesn't reach the target, what can the Welsh Government do in reality? We've heard over the last few years about a council perhaps failing with recycling targets for example. Okay, that is statutory, but what is the punishment? That is the reality of the situation, I think; in terms of the powers of the Government, there is a limit perhaps to what a Government can do if that comes to fruition. But I do think that there is a desire now, across local government in Wales, to address this agenda and to deliver, and to help Welsh Government to deliver the target of a million Welsh speakers.
Diolch, Darren. Awn ni nôl at Heledd.
Thanks, Darren. We'll go back to Heledd.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Dwi'n meddwl bod y pwynt olaf yna yn bwysig o ran edrych ar beth sy'n statudol yn barod. Ydych chi'n meddwl bod yna fesurau y gellid eu defnyddio i wella neu ddiwygio'r fframwaith bresennol—nid jest yn rhai deddfwriaethol neu'n rhai polisi—a fyddai o fudd?
Thank you very much. I think that final point is an important one in terms of looking at what is already on a statutory basis. Do you think that there are measures that could be adopted to improve or amend the current framework—not just legislative or policy—that would be of benefit?
Mae hyn yn ymhelaethu ar rywbeth rŷn ni wedi codi eisoes ynglŷn â ffynonellau cyllidol yn dilyn yn dynn iawn uchelgeisiau gwahanol CSCAau a'u hawdurdodau. Hynny yw, mae gyda ni gryn dipyn o ffynonellau grantiau gwahanol yn cefnogi'r Gymraeg. Mae nifer o'r rheini yn mynd, efallai, i wahanol lefydd: rhai yn mynd yn uniongyrchol i ysgolion, rhai i awdurdodau, rhai i ranbarthau. Mi fyddai fe, dwi'n siwr, efallai, yn ddarn diddorol o waith i edrych ar y llif grantiau yna, a sut rŷn ni'n sicrhau bod y llif grantiau—. Llif grantiau, mewn gwirionedd, ynghyd ag ewyllys, yw'r ffordd o gael y CSCAau i gael eu gweithredu. Er enghraifft, os rŷn ni o ddifri ynglŷn â symud ysgolion ar hyd y categorïau yma, mae yna gost real o symud ysgol o gategori 1 drwy T2 mewn i 2. Maen nhw'n gostau rŷn ni'n ffactora i mewn i'n cyllidebau ni ar hyn o bryd. Maen nhw'n gostau real, maen nhw'n gostau refeniw, ac maen nhw'n gostau dros gyfnod o amser. Felly, ble rŷn ni'n alinio yr adnoddau sydd gyda ni o ran grantiau efallai mewn un man, fel bod y grantiau yma yn gerbyd gwirioneddol fel ffynhonnell i gwrdd â thargedau'r CSCAau?
This expands on a point that I previously made on funding sources following very closely the various ambitions of the WESPs and their local auhtorities. We do have some fair few grant sources supporting the Welsh language, and many of those go to different places, some go directly to schools, some to authorities, and some to the regions. It would be, perhaps, an interesting piece of work to look at that flow of grant funding and how to ensure that—. Grant funding, along with goodwill, is the way of getting the WESPs implemented. If we are serious about moving schools through these categories, then there's a very real cost of moving a school from category 1 through into T2 and then to 2. They are costs that we are factoring into our budgets at the moment. They are real costs, they are revenue costs, and they are costs over a period of time. So, how do we align the resources that we have in terms of grants in one place, so that those grants can be a real driver to meet the targets of the WESPs?
Rwy'n credu bod y pwynt yna yn un dilys iawn. Fel rŷn ni'n sôn yn y dystiolaeth ysgrifenedig, mae yna angen i ffocysu'r gefnogaeth ariannol ar yr ysgolion trosiannol yna yng nghategorïau T2 a T3. Mae'n clymu gyda phwynt Alun Davies, wrth gwrs. Efallai bod gwobrwyo cynghorau sydd ar y daith yna yn ffordd dda o wneud hynny, yn hytrach na meddwl am y gosb, efallai. Achos y realiti yw, dwi ddim yn credu bod lot yn tool box Llywodraeth Cymru yn nhermau'r cosbi, ac efallai taw edrych arno fe o'r ochr arall fyddai orau, a chydweithio â chynghorau, a gwobrwyo'r cynghorau hynny sy'n uchelgeisiol wrth edrych i symud ysgolion ar hyd y continiwwum.
I think that point is a very valid one. As we mentioned in the written evidence, there is a need to focus the financial support on those transitional schools in categories T2 and T3. It ties in with the point made by Alun Davies, that perhaps rewarding councils who are on that journey is a good way of doing so, rather than thinking of the penalty. Because the reality is, I don't think there's much in the Welsh Government's tool box regarding penalties, but, I think, looking at it from another perspective is the best way, and working and collaborating with councils, and rewarding councils that are ambitious in looking to move schools across the continuum.
Meinir, roeddech chi eisiau dod nôl mewn.
Meinir, you wanted to come back in.
Ac yn sicr, dyw e ddim jest yn grantiau o ran refeniw, ond cyfalaf, a sut rŷn ni, eto, yn alinio rhai o'r uchelgeisiau yma gyda phrosiectau cyfalaf, prosiectau a chynlluniau ysglion cynaliadwy, ysgolion yr unfed ganrif ar hugain ac yn y blaen. Er enghraifft, bod yna bwysoli o blaid adeiladu ysgolion newydd pan mae'r ysgolion newydd hynny yn dilyn neu mewn cyfnodau trosiannol.
Certainly, it's not just revenue grants, but also capital grants, and how we align some of these ambitions with capital projects, sustainable school schemes, twenty-first century schools and so on and so forth. For example, that there is a decision in favour of building new schools when those new schools are following or are in a transition.
Diolch. Heledd, a oedd unrhyw beth arall roeddech chi eisiau gofyn? Na, dŷch chi'n hapus. Diolch am hwnna. Gwnawn ni symud at Hefin David.
Thank you. Heledd, was there anything else you wanted to ask? No. You're happy. Thank you very much for that. We'll move on to Hefin David.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. Pa mor ddigonol yw'r fframwaith monitro? A yw'r system yn ddigon cadarn i alluogi gwaith craffu hirdymor ar gynnydd awdurdodau lleol yn erbyn targedau? A pha rôl sydd i Estyn ei chwarae o ran monitro darpariaeth?
Thank you, Chair. How adequate is the monitoring framework? Is the system sufficiently robust to enable long-term scrutiny of local authorities' progress against targets? And what role is there for Estyn in monitoring delivery of provision?
Bydd gan bob cyngor sir, dwi'n siwr, eu trefniadaeth eu hunain o ran craffu ar y cynlluniau strategol yma. Fel dwi'n credu rydyn ni wedi codi o'r blaen, efallai byddai yna ryw arweiniad neu ddisgwyliad ynglŷn â chysondeb y rôl graffu honno. Hynny yw, mae adroddiadau cabinet, adroddiadau craffu, rwy'n meddwl, yn rhywbeth i'w hystyried. Mae yna le i reoleiddwyr, fel rôn i'n dweud ynglŷn ag Estyn, ond mae yna le rwy'n credu i grwpiau o awdurdodau, ac efallai grwpiau o awdurdodau sy'n debyg yn ieithyddol, neu yn eu her, neu yn eu huchelgais, i ddod at ei gilydd a chydgraffu, yn ogystal. Hynny yw, bod yr her honno o ran hergymheiriaid mewn yn y system yn ogystal, ble mae gyda ni grwpiau o awdurdodau lleol fydd â, efallai, nifer o ysgolion yn T3, dyweder, neu dyhead i drochi 100 y cant o'u disgyblion yn y cyfnod sylfaen yn y Gymraeg. Ac i ba raddau rŷn ni'n gallu symud i gael y mecanwaith yn ei le, ble mae rhai o'r awdurdodau hynny, sydd yn ieithyddol yn perthyn yn nes i'w gilydd, yn medru cydgynllunio ar ambell i agwedd, ond hefyd cydgraffu o ran dwyn ein hunain yn atebol yn ogystal.
Every council will have their own arrangements in terms of scrutiny of these WESPs. As, I think, we've raised previously, perhaps there could be some expectation in terms of the consistency of that scrutiny role. I think scrutiny reports or reports to cabinet could be considered. There is a role for regulators, as I mentioned, regarding Estyn, but I think there's also a role for groups of authorities, and groups of authorities that are linguistically similar, or similar in terms of their ambition, to come together and to jointly scrutinise. That is, that that challenge, in terms of peer challenge, could be part of the system, where we have a group of local authorities that will perhaps have a number of schools in T3, for example, or an aspiration to immerse 100 per cent of their pupils in the foundation phase in Welsh. And to what extent can we move to have that mechanism in place, where some of those authorities, which linguistically are more closely aligned, could jointly plan on certain aspects, but also jointly scrutinise in terms of holding ourselves to account too.
Jest i ychwanegu, ac efallai rhoi esiampl fanna, mae'r pwynt mae Meinir yn codi yn un pwysig iawn. Dyw system rhanbarthol y consortia sydd gyda ni ar y foment ddim o reidrwydd yn delifro yn nhermau helpu cynghorau unigol ar siwrne'r CSCAau a datblygu'r iaith Gymraeg. Jest i roi esiampl, yn y de orllewin, gyda'r consortiwm Partneriaeth, mae sir Gâr yn cydweithio â Chyngor Abertawe a sir Benfro. Wrth gwrs, mae'r cyd-destun, fel roeddwn i'n sôn yn y cwestiwn cyntaf, yn y tair sir yna yn wahanol iawn. Mae'r heriau rŷm ni'n eu hwynebu yn wahanol iawn ar yr elfen ieithyddol yma. Beth rŷm ni'n ei ffeindio yw bod yna drafodaethau anffurfiol yn digwydd, efallai, gyda chynghorau eraill megis Ceredigion a Gwynedd a chynghorau Arfor, sy'n fwy tebyg yn ieithyddol. Rŷm ni wedi gwneud hynny ar lefel cydgynllunio a chydweithio, ond efallai bod yna sgôp i gryfhau’r elfen o gydweithio yna ynglŷn â’r cydgraffu, ynglŷn â fel rŷm ni’n symud drwy’r cynlluniau ac fel rŷm ni’n cyrraedd ein nod, neu ddim. Mae hwnnw’n bwynt dwi’n credu y mae angen inni ei drafod gyda Llywodraeth Cymru, ynglŷn â fel rŷm ni’n ffurfioli hynny, i sicrhau bod y cynghorau hynny sy’n debyg yn ieithyddol, a’r cynghorau sydd â chynlluniau penodol a thebyg, yn cydgraffu ac yn cydweithio. Diolch.
Just to add, and to provide an example, the point that Meinir has raised is important. The regional system of the consortia that we have currently doesn't necessarily deliver in terms of helping individual councils on the WESPs journey and the development of the Welsh language. Just to give you an example, in the south-west, in the Partneriaeth consortium, Carmarthenshire is working with Swansea Council and Pembrokeshire. Of course, the context, as I mentioned in the first question, in those three counties is very different. The challenges that we face are very different on this linguistic element. What we are finding is that informal discussions are happening with other councils, such as Ceredigion and Gwynedd and Arfor councils, which are more similar in a linguistic context. We have done that on a joint planning approach and a joint working approach, but perhaps there's scope to strengthen that element of joint working and joint scrutiny, in terms of how we move through the plans and how we reach our aim, or not. That is a point, I think, that we need to discuss with the Welsh Government, in terms of how we formalise that, to ensure that those councils that are similar on a linguistic level and those councils that have similar targets are scrutinised on a joint basis.
Diolch. I ba raddau yr ystyrir bod y drefn statudol ar gyfer adolygu a diwygio WESPs dros gyfnod o 10 mlynedd yn briodol, ac a ddylai fod yn ofynnol i awdurdodau lleol gynnal adolygiad llawn o'u cynlluniau strategol ar ôl pum mlynedd?
Thank you. To what extent do you belive that the statutory regime for reviewing and revising 10-year WESPs is appropriate, and should it be a requirement for local authorities to undertake a full review of their WESPs after five years?
Rŷm ni'n croesawu cynllunio dros ddegawd. Mae cynllunio dros ddegawd yn synhwyrol o ran iaith. Yn sicr, mae yna bethau eraill yn newid, onid oes? Mae yna bethau yn ymwneud â chynllunio, ynglŷn â phatrymau twf ac yn y blaen, a fydd efallai yn newid ac yn esblygu yn ystod y 10 mlynedd nesaf, yn ogystal â chanlyniad un cyfrifiad, yn sicr, os nad dau. Felly, byddwn i’n cytuno’n llwyr gyda’r pwynt o ran unrhyw gynllunio hirdymor sydd ddim yn cael sgrwtini cyson blynyddol. Ond wedyn, efallai, rhyw fan ar ôl pum mlynedd, ble mae yna ddisgwyliad nid i ddiwygio—oherwydd mae yna botensial mewn diwygio i ostwng disgwyliad hefyd—ond bod yna unrhyw botensial mewn pum mlynedd i godi’r disgwyliad. Hynny yw, lleiafswm y disgwyliad sydd gyda ni mewn lle nawr. Ymhen pum mlynedd, gweld os ydy’r amodau yn eu lle i godi’r disgwyliad, nid i’w ostwng e.
We welcome 10-year planning because that is sensible in terms of language. Certainly, there are other things that do change. There are things related to planning, growth areas, that will change and develop over the next 10 years, as well as the results of one census, at least, if not two. So, I would agree entirely with the point about any long-term planning that isn't scrutinised regularly on an annual basis. Then, after five years, perhaps there should be an expectation that there should be—not reform, because there is potential in reform to lower expectations too—but that there should be potential after five years to increase the ambition. Because we have a minimum in place at the moment. In five years, perhaps we could see whether the conditions are in place where we could raise those aspirations, not lower them.
Dwi'n cytuno'n llwyr. Mae rhai o’r cynghorau wedi rhannu’r ddegawd yn ddwy. Dyna’n sicr fel rŷm ni wedi gwneud pethau yn sir Gâr. Felly, wrth feddwl, er enghraifft, ynglŷn â blwyddyn un a’r ddarpariaeth Gymraeg, rŷm ni’n sôn am symud pedair ysgol ar hyd y continwwm yn y bum mlynedd gyntaf, a chwech yn yr ail ran o’r ddegawd. Felly, byddai adolygiad hanner ffordd drwy’r cwrs yn hanfodol, byddwn i’n dweud, i weld ble rŷm ni ar y daith yna.
Ond dydw i ddim yn credu ei bod hi’n ddigonol i ddweud bod adolygiad llawn ar ôl pum mlynedd. Mae eisiau bod y trafodaethau yma, fel roeddwn i’n sôn yn gynt, yn barhaol ac yn gyson gyda Llywodraeth Cymru. Mae hi’n bositif i weld y cydweithio rhwng swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru a llywodraeth leol wrth ddatblygu’r cynlluniau yma. Y gobaith yw, wrth gwrs, y bydd y trafod a’r monitro a’r craffu hynny yn parhau drwy gydol y cyfnod.
I completely agree. A number of councils have divided the decade into two, as we have done in Carmarthenshire. So, in thinking, for example, about year one, and the Welsh-medium provision, we are talking about moving four schools on the continuum in the first five years and six in the next period of the decade. So, a halfway review, of course, would be essential, I would say, to see where we are on that journey.
But I don't think that it's sufficient to say that there'll be a full review after five years. I think these discussions need to be consistent and regular with the Welsh Government. It's positive to see the collaboration between Welsh Government officials and local government in developing these plans. The hope, of course, is that the discussion and the monitoring and the scrutiny continue throughout the period. Thank you.
Diolch. Hefin, a ŷch chi'n hapus? Grêt. Mi wnawn ni symud at Tom Giffard.
Thank you. Hefin, are you happy? Great. We'll move on to Tom Giffard.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. Roeddwn i am sôn am y sector cyfrwng Saesneg a’r WESPs. Pa asesiad ydych chi wedi’i wneud o’r WESPs yn y cyfrwng Saesneg? A ydyn nhw’n gweithio, ac os nad ydyn nhw’n gweithio, sut ydyn ni’n gallu taclo hynny yn y dyfodol?
Thank you, Chair. I wanted to mention the English-medium sector and the WESPs. What assessment have you made of the WESPs in the English-medium sector? Are they working, and if they aren't, how can we tackle that for the future?
Dwi'n cymryd bod y cyfeiriad yn y fan yna at ba mor effeithiol y byddai’r CSCAau yn cefnogi ysgolion Saesneg i symud ar hyd y continwwm.
I assume that that's a reference to how effective the WESPs would be in supporting English-medium schools to move along the continuum.
Ie. Rŷm ni'n mynd i symud ymlaen at y continwwm yn y dyfodol. Ond roeddwn i am wybod beth yw'r profiad o ddysgu yn y Gymraeg mewn ysgolion neu golegau cyfrwng Saesneg nawr. A ydy'r WESPs yn delifro—deliver?
Yes. We are going to move on to the continuum. But I wanted to know about the experience of learning Welsh in English-medium schools and colleges now. Are the WESPs delivering?
Ie, delifro. Beth ydy deliver yn Gymraeg? Delifro, ie.
What's the Welsh word for 'delivering'? Delifro, yes.
A ydyn nhw'n gwneud beth maen nhw i fod i wneud—y WESPs?
Are they doing what they are intended to do—the WESPs?
Dwi'n credu ein bod ni'n gwybod bod gyda ni lawer o dystiolaeth genedlaethol sy'n nodi'r amrywiaeth mawr yna ym mhrofiadau disgyblion yn dysgu'r Gymraeg fel ail iaith, neu, gyda dyfodiad Cwricwlwm i Gymru, beth dylem ni fod yn dweud, wrth gwrs, yw 'yn dysgu'r Gymraeg', a dysgu'r Gymraeg a dyna ni, mewn gwirionedd.
Dwi'n credu—eto, dŷn ni wedi cyfeirio o'r blaen at gontinwwm. Mae'r continwwm yma, a chontinwwm di-dor, yn hanfodol. Mae yna fframwaith ar gyfer ysgolion sydd yn dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg yn bennaf yn cael ei ddatblygu, ond, wrth gwrs, beth mae hwnna, yn ei hanfod, yn rhoi mewn, yw stop-start rhwng ysgolion Saesneg ac ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg, a dyw e ddim, o'r herwydd, yn gontinwwm di-dor. Felly, mae continwwm di-dor yn hanfod.
Mae effeithiolrwydd y cynnig yn mynd i fod yn ddibynnol ar hyder staff, onid yw e, a sut dŷn ni'n sicrhau bod y dysgu proffesiynol yn cefnogi staff i sicrhau'r profiadau gorau i ddisgyblion pan fyddan nhw'n ymwneud â'r Gymraeg. Mae hwnna'n hanfodol. Mae hwnnw'n ymwneud â sgilio staff, staff sydd ddim o reidrwydd yn arbenigo mewn addysgu'r Gymraeg, oherwydd dŷn ni'n gwybod bod yna brinder o ran hynny. Felly, staff sydd â'r sgiliau hynny; yr adnoddau eang sydd eu hangen i gefnogi hynny—adnoddau cyffrous, adnoddau sydd yn ddigidol yn eu hanfod ac yn y blaen, a bod rheini, fel roeddwn i'n dweud, wedi'u clymu'n dynn iawn, iawn, gyda phob rhan o'r continwwm yma. Os cawn ni'r continwwm yn ei le, mae'r adnoddau'n targedu'r union lefydd sydd eu hangen.
Y staffio yw'r buddsoddiad, ond hefyd, efallai, y trafodaethau sydd eu hangen ar sut i arwain Cymreictod mewn ysgol. Dydy e ddim jest yn ymwneud â'r staff sydd yn dysgu gwersi Cymraeg; mae'n ymwneud â llywodraethwyr â thimoedd arwain sydd yn gallu datblygu Cymreictod ac ymdeimlad o fod yn Gymry yn ein hysgolion ni yn ogystal. Felly, mae yna lefel sydd y tu hwnt jest i wersi cyfrwng Cymraeg; mae yna angen ymwneud yn fwy â sut i ddatblygu ethos Gymreig ym mhob un o'n hysgolion ni, ac, fel roeddwn i'n dweud, yr ymdeimlad o fod yn Gymry.
Certainly, I think we know that we have a great deal of evidence at a national level that sets out that great variety in the experience of pupils learning Welsh as a second language, or what we should be saying is 'learning Welsh', and learning Welsh alone, and forget about the second language element.
Again, we've referred in the past to a continuum. This continuum, an unbroken continuum, is crucial. There is a framework for schools that teach mainly through the medium of English being developed, but what that does is to put a boundary between English-medium and Welsh-medium schools, and it's not an unbroken continuum as a result. So, an unbroken continuum is essential.
Now, the efficacy of the offer will be dependent on the confidence of staff and how we ensure that we have the professional learning to support staff to provide the best experiences to pupils when they engage with the Welsh language. That is crucial. That relates to upskilling staff, staff who won't necessarily specialise in teaching Welsh, because we do know that there is a shortage of those staff. So, it's staff that have those skills; the broad-ranging resources that are required to support that—exciting materials that are digital and so on and so forth, and that they are very tightly interwoven with every step of the continuum. Because if we get that continuum in place, the resources can target exactly the places where they're needed.
There needs to be an investment in staffing, but also there need to be discussions as to how to lead on a Welsh ethos in schools. It doesn't just relate to the teachers teaching Welsh as a subject; it relates to governors and leadership teams that can develop a Welsh ethos within our schools too. So, there is a level that is beyond just having Welsh lessons; there is a need to do more in terms of developing a Welsh ethos in all of our schools, and, as I said, that feeling of being Welsh.
Diolch, Meinir. Darren, oeddech chi eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn?
Thank you, Meinir. Darren, did you want to come in at this point?
Diolch. Mae'n bwynt rili bwysig, onid yw e? Yn anffodus, fel roedd Meinir yn sôn, mae yna amrywiaeth ynghylch pa mor effeithiol—
Thank you. It's a really important point, isn't it? Unfortunately, as Meinir mentioned, there is variation in how effective—
Darren, jest am funud—. Dŷn ni ddim yn gallu clywed chi'n dda iawn. Ydych chi'n gallu mynd yn agosach at y meicroffon?
Darren, just for a minute—. We can't hear you very well. Could you just move closer to the microphone?
Dim problem. Ydy hwnna'n well?
No problem. Is that better?
Ydych chi'n gallu—? Gwnawn ni jest siecio'r sain jest am un funud. Ydych chi'n gallu ceisio siarad eto?
Can you just—? We'll just check with the sound technician for a minute. Could you try speaking again?
Ydy hwnna'n well?
Is that better?
Na. Mae rhywbeth yn bod. Gwnawn ni jest—. Ydyn ni angen cymryd egwyl fer jest am hyn? Ie. Gwnawn ni jest gymryd egwyl o ddwy funud jest i geisio sortio hyn mas. Gwnawn ni fynd yn breifat am ddwy funud.
No. There's something wrong. We'll just—. Do we need to take a break for this? Yes. We'll just take a short break of two minutes just to try and sort this out. We'll go into private session just for a minute or two.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 12:28 a 12:29.
The meeting adjourned between 12:28 and 12:29.
Ocê. Dŷn ni nôl yn gyhoeddus. Roedden ni jest wedi cymryd egwyl fer i wneud rhywbeth gyda'r sain. Darren, ydych chi eisiau mynd yn ôl at eich ateb i Tom Giffard?
Okay. We're back in public session. We just took a short break to sort the sound out. Darren, do you want to return to your answer to Tom Giffard?
Yn sicr. Mae hyn yn bwynt pwysig, onid yw e? Fel roedd Meinir yn sôn, mae amrywiaeth ynglŷn â pha mor effeithiol mae ysgolion Saesneg yn llwyddo i greu siaradwyr sy'n ddwyieithog. Mae hynny'n ffaith; dŷn ni i gyd yn ymwybodol o hynny, ac mae hwnna wedi bod yn rhywbeth sy'n rhan o'r system ers degawdau erbyn hyn, wrth gwrs. O'm safbwynt i, dwi'n gweld hi'n hynod o siomedig bod cynifer o ddisgyblion sy'n gadael ein system addysg ni ar ôl 11 mlynedd yn methu â chynnal sgwrs sylfaenol yn y Gymraeg. Mae hynny yn warth, i fod yn berffaith onest, a petaen ni'n sôn am unrhyw bwnc arall yn y system addysg rwy'n siŵr byddai yna ymateb cryf iawn ar draws y wlad. Fel roeddwn i'n sôn yn gynt, mae'r Gymraeg yn sgìl. Mae hi'n sgìl. Mae hi'n agor drysau yn ddiwylliannol ac ar lefel proffesiynol, ac mae eisiau inni gydnabod hynny. Rwy'n credu bod yna gydnabyddiaeth wrth gwrs ar lefel Llywodraeth, ond yn nhermau'r system mae'n amlwg bod angen diwygio, a dyna pam rwy'n croesawu'r categoreiddio newydd a'r categorïau trosiannol yn benodol. Rwy'n credu bod hwnna yn rhoi cyfle i ni, ar draws Cymru nawr, i edrych ar bob un ysgol i weld fel gallwn ni symud yr ysgolion hynny ar hyd y continwwm. Yn y bôn, beth rŷn ni'n sôn am yn fan hyn yw sicrhau bod disgyblion â'r gallu i gyfathrebu yn Gymraeg yn fwy aml yn ystod y dydd, yn ystod oriau ysgol. Dyna fe yn ei ffordd fwyaf syml. Ac wrth gwrs mae'r gweithlu, a datblygu'r gweithlu, fel roedd Meinir yn sôn, yn mynd i fod yn ganolog yn hynny o beth. Felly, dyna'r darn o waith, yn fy marn i, fwyaf pwysig sydd eisiau i ni ffocysu arno ar lefel cenedlaethol. Diolch.
Certainly. This is an important point. As Meinir mentioned, there is variation in how effective English-medium schools are in succeeding in creating bilingual speakers. That is a fact; we're all aware of that, and that has been something that has been part of the system for decades. From my perspective, it's very disappointing that so many pupils leaving our education system after 11 years can't hold a basic conversation in Welsh. That is terrible, if I'm honest, and if we were talking about any other subject in the education system I'm sure there would be a very strong response across the country to that. As I mentioned, Welsh is a skill. It is a skill. It opens doors culturally and on a professional level, and there's a need for us to recognise that. There is a recognition at a Government level, but in terms of the system it's clear that there is a need for reform, and that is why I welcome the new categories and the transitional categories particularly. I think that does provide an opportunity for us, across Wales, to look at every school to see how we can move those schools along the continuum. Essentially, what we're talking about here is ensuring pupils have the ability and proficiency to communicate through the medium of Welsh during the school day, during school hours. That's what it is in its simplest form. And of course the workforce, and developing the workforce, as Meinir mentioned, is going to be central in that regard. So, that's the piece of work that's most important, in my view, and the one that we need to focus on at a national level. Thank you.
Diolch, Darren. Tom.
Thank you, Darren. Tom.
Yn y sesiwn diwethaf, pan oedden ni'n sôn am y sector gyfrwng Saesneg, ac roedden ni'n sôn am staff, roedd rhai o'r bobl oedd wedi dod mewn yn dweud am ryw fath o sgiliau—. Wel, roedd dau beth—roedd sgiliau ac roedd hyder—yn broblemau. Roedden nhw'n sôn am sut doedd dim pawb yn gwybod pa sgiliau Cymraeg oedd gan staff yn ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg. Felly, ydy hynny yn digwydd? Ydy ysgolion Saesneg wastad yn gwybod os yw pawb yn eu hysgol neu eu coleg nhw yn gallu siarad Cymraeg, a oes ganddyn nhw sgiliau Cymraeg, yn eich profiad chi? A hefyd, sut gallwn ni ddatblygu nid dim ond y sgiliau ond yr hyder gan y staff yna hefyd?
In the previous session, when we mentioned the English-medium sector and staff, some of the people who gave us evidence mentioned skills—. Well, two things—one was skills and the other was confidence—as problems. They were telling us that not everyone knew what Welsh language skills staff had in English-medium schools. So, does that happen? Do English-medium schools always know who in their school or college can speak Welsh, if they have those skills, in your experience? And then, how can we develop not only the skills but also the confidence among the staff too?
Meinir.
Meinir.
O ran asesu sgiliau staff, mae'r school workforce annual census, onid oes e, y sensws—y pupil level annual schools census cyfatebol i staff ysgolion. Yn y fanna mae cyfle arbennig, onid oes e, i gael darlun cenedlaethol o beth yw sgiliau ieithyddol pawb yng Nghymru, mewn gwirionedd, sydd yn gweithio mewn ysgol ar unrhyw lefel. Felly, mae'r SWAC, rwy'n credu, yn rhywbeth ble mae modd datblygu. Yr unig beth, efallai, sy'n wendid yn hynny, yw mai hunanasesiad, mae'n siŵr, byddai hynny, mai'r unigolyn fyddai'n nodi ei hyfedredd nhw yn y Gymraeg, ac mae yna amrywiaeth yn mynd i fod yn hynny o beth. Efallai fod yna le i edrych ar beth yw rôl Cyngor y Gweithlu Addysg, yr EWC, yn hynny o beth, o ran efallai portffolios yn ymwneud â medrusrwydd iaith y gweithlu ac yn y blaen, a'i fod e yn bartneriaeth gyda'r EWC yn ogystal o ran hynny. Ond mae adnabod yn un cam, onid yw e? Mae adnabod go iawn pa gynorthwywyr sydd gyda ni sydd yn medru siarad y Gymraeg, sydd yn hyderus ar lafar ac yn y blaen—mae hynny yn sicr yn un peth, ond mae'n rhaid inni fod yn ofalus gydag unrhyw hunanasesiad, achos mae hunanasesu iaith efallai yn mynd i arwain at anghysondebau.
Mae'r ail beth, yn ymwneud â hyder, yn un hanfodol, onid yw e, achos rŷn ni'n clywed gymaint o bobl yn dweud, 'Ie, ond dim ond Cymraeg rhyw dref arbennig sydd gen i,' yn hytrach nag ymfalchïo yn y Gymraeg honno. Rwy'n credu mai dyna'r neges fawr iawn, iawn i ni. Mae Cynghorydd Price eisoes wedi sôn ynglŷn â'r llafar, mai 'siaradwyr' rydyn ni'n dymuno, a bod yn wirioneddol rhaid inni sicrhau bod y pwyslais ar siarad, bod y seicoleg ar gynnal—nid ar gywirdeb, ond ar gynnal ac ar hyrwyddo. Mae'r cywirdeb yn rhywbeth ddatblygith, ond, os ŷn ni'n chwalu hyder pobl, wnawn nhw ddim ei siarad hi yn lle cyntaf. Felly, mae'r darn hyder yna, rwy'n credu ei fod e'n ymwneud gyda seicoleg iaith yn rhannol. Mae e'n ymwneud â ni yn rhoi sicrwydd i bobl dydyn ni ddim yn disgwyl iddyn nhw ysgrifennu neu ddarllen ar goedd, ond ein bod ni yn disgwyl y gynhaliaeth yna i bobl i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg sydd gyda nhw. Ac unwaith maen nhw'n cael profiadau llwyddiannus o ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg sydd gyda nhw, maen nhw'n mynd i ddefnyddio mwy ohoni hi. Felly, rwy'n meddwl bod y darn hyder yna yn dod yn ôl i'r llafar. Mae e'n dod nôl i gymwysterau a phrofiadau dysgu sydd yn parchu'r llafar uwchben nifer o sgiliau eraill, ond mae e ynglŷn â chreu ethos o ymfalchïo mewn defnydd iaith a sicrwydd bod pobl yn cael eu parchu am ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg sydd gyda nhw. Ac wedyn, o dan hynny, wrth gwrs, mae'r holl system o ddysgu proffesiynol, o ddatblygu sgiliau'r gweithlu, sy'n ymwneud â chyrsiau sabothol, cyrsiau rhithiol a'r holl fecanwaith honno'n ogystal.
In terms of assessing the skills of staff, there's the school workforce annual census—the pupil level annual schools census equivalent for school staff. There's a special opportunity there to have a national picture of what the language skills are of everybody in Wales, really, who works in a school at any level. So, the SWAC, I think, is something that we can develop. The only thing, perhaps, that is a weakness in that is that I think that would be self-assessment, the individual would have to note their proficiency in Welsh, and there's going to be a variation in that sense. Perhaps there's an opportunity to look at the role of the Education Workforce Council in terms of portfolios on the language proficiency of the workforce and so on, and that there is a partnership with the Education Workforce Council as well as part of that. Identification is one step. Genuine identification of those members of staff who can speak Welsh, who are confident speakers and so on—that certainly is one thing, but we have to be careful with any sort of self-assessment, because self-assessment could perhaps lead to inconsistencies.
The second issue relates to confidence, and this is essential, isn't it, because we hear so many people say, 'Yes, I've only got the Welsh of some particular town,' rather than being proud of that Welsh language. I think that's the major message that we need to convey. Councillor Price has already spoken about confidence, that we really need to ensure that the emphasis is on speaking, that the psychology is on maintaining and supporting, not on correctness. Correctness is something that will develop, but, if you destroy somebody's confidence, they won't speak the language in the first place. So, that confidence part of things, it does relate to language psychology in part, I think. It does relate to us saying that we don't expect them to read or write publicly, but we do expect them to have that support to use the language they have. And once they have successful experiences of using the Welsh language they have, they're going to use more of the language. So, I do think that that confidence element comes back to the oral element. It comes back to qualifications and learning experiences that respect the oral element above other skills, but it's also about creating an ethos of being proud of the use of the language and ensuring that people are respected for using the Welsh that they have. And under that, of course, is the whole system of professional learning, of developing the skills of the workforce, which relates to sabbatical courses, virtual courses and all the mechanisms related to that.
Diolch, Meinir. Gyda llaw, cyn i fi ddod â Darren i mewn, rydyn ni i mewn i'n chwarter awr olaf ni nawr. Ond mae digonedd o amser ar ôl. Gwnawn ni fynd at Darren.
Thank you, Meinir. Before I bring Darren in, we are into our final 15 minutes. But we have plenty of time left. We'll go to Darren now.
Diolch yn fawr. Rwy'n credu bod y pwynt yna ynglŷn â hyder yn hollbwysig, fel roedd Meinir yn sôn. Ac, wrth gwrs, mae yna systemau dysgu proffesiynol gyda ni; mae yna gynlluniau gan bob cyngor sir. Ond beth rydyn ni'n ei ffeindio yw bod yna amrywiaeth sylweddol rhwng y cynigion hynny, ac mae yna le, rwy'n credu, i gael trafodaeth ynglŷn â chreu system cenedlaethol sydd yn sicrhau bod yna gysondeb yn y cynnig yna. Rwy'n datgan diddordeb fan hyn achos roedd y wraig yn dysgu ar gwrs sabothol Coleg y Drindod yng Nghaerfyrddin, lle mae athrawon yn cymryd blwyddyn mas o'r dosbarth i wella ac i godi hyder yn nhermau eu defnydd o'r iaith Gymraeg. Ac mae hwnna'n un model, wrth gwrs, ond rŷn ni hefyd yn ymwybodol bod cynghorau sir yn aml yn datblygu systemau mewnol sy'n wahanol, ac felly mae yna rôl, rwy'n credu, i gael y drafodaeth yna'n genedlaethol i sicrhau bod y ddarpariaeth o'r safon uchaf a'i bod yn delifro yn erbyn yr amcan—hynny yw, ein bod ni'n creu athrawon sydd yn fwy hyderus ac yn fodlon mynd nôl i'r dosbarth a defnyddio'r Gymraeg wedyn gyda'r disgyblion. Mae hwnna'n hollbwysig.
Mae hwnna'n ateb un gofyn yn y tymor byr, wrth gwrs, ond, fel roeddwn i'n sôn yn gynt, rwy'n credu mai'r darn o waith mawr sydd angen inni ffocysu arno yw sicrhau ein bod ni'n creu cyflenwad o athrawon sy'n medru'r Gymraeg trwy'r system colegau a hyfforddiant. Dyna'r allwedd a dyna'r ateb yn fy marn i yn yr hirdymor. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae yna rôl gyda'r cwrs sabothol a chyrsiau eraill, wrth gwrs, i lenwi'r gap, fel petai, ac i gefnogi ein hysgolion Saesneg ni yn y tymor byr. Diolch.
Thank you very much. I think that point on confidence is crucially important, as Meinir mentioned. And of course there are professional learning systems in place and there are plans by all local authorities. But what we see is there is great variety between the offers in different areas, and I think there is scope to have a discussion on creating a national system that would ensure consistency in that offer. I declare an interest here, because my wife did teach on the sabbatical course at Trinity College in Carmarthen, where teachers take a year out of the classroom to improve their language skills and to gain confidence in the use of the Welsh language. And that's one approach, but we're also aware that councils often develop internal systems that are different, and so I think that there is a role to have that discussion at a national level to ensure that the provision is of the highest quality and that it does deliver against the objectives—namely, that we create teachers who are more confident and are willing to go back to the classroom and use the Welsh language with pupils. That's crucially important.
That meets one requirement in the short term, of course, but, as I mentioned earlier, I think the major piece of work that we need to focus on is ensuring that we create a supply of teachers who can teach through the medium of Welsh through our colleges and training courses. That, in my view, is the key in the long term. But, of course, the sabbatical courses and other courses have a role to play in filling that gap and in supporting our English-medium schools in the short term. Thank you.
Diolch, Darren.
Thank you, Darren.
Un arall gen i: beth allai Llywodraeth Cymru ei wneud i annog neu gymell awdurdodau lleol i gryfhau'r ddarpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg yn eu hardaloedd, yn enwedig mewn perthynas â'r sector cyfrwng Saesneg?
Just one more question from me: what could the Welsh Government do to encourage or incentivise local authorities to strengthen Welsh-medium provision within their areas, particularly in relation to the English-medium sector?
Meinir.
Meinir.
Diolch. I fynd nôl, efallai, i un pwynt yn ogystal, rwy'n credu, o ran uwch-sgilio'r gweithlu—ac mae'n rhan o'r ateb yma yn ogystal—un o'r pethau rydyn ni wedi ei wneud yn lleol, wrth gwrs, yw derbyn ysgolion sy'n dweud wrthym ni ei bod hi'n anodd rhyddhau staff am gyfnodau hir. Dyw'r cyflenwad staff yn y system gyflenwi ddim o reidrwydd yna i ganiatáu y rhyddhau yn y lle cyntaf. Felly, lle rŷn ni wedi cefnogi ysgolion cynradd i newid cyfrwng iaith ac i sgilio staff, rŷn ni wedi lleoli tiwtor bob dydd, drwy'r dydd yn yr ysgol honno i weithio ochr yn ochr yn y dosbarthiadau. A dwi'n credu bod hynny wedi bod o fudd mawr yn yr enghreifftiau lle rŷn ni wedi llwyddo i wneud hynny, achos beth rŷch chi'n ei gael yw nid ysgariad rhwng y Gymraeg rŷch chi'n ei dysgu mewn gwers a'r Gymraeg rŷch chi'n ei defnyddio yn y gwaith, ond mae'r ddau beth yn asio, gan fod y gefnogaeth yn y dosbarth ysgwydd yn ysgwydd gyda'r darparwyr, ac mae hynny wedi bod yn llwyddiannus. Ond, fel dwi'n dweud, mae'n adnodd trwm i ni ei ddarparu.
O ran y cwestiwn ynglŷn â llwyddiant y sector gyfrwng Saesneg yn bennaf, dwi'n credu efallai mai adlewyrchu ac ailadrodd nifer o'r pwyntiau sydd eisoes wedi cael eu gwneud y byddwn i, mewn gwirionedd, sydd eto'n ymwneud â buddsoddi yn y gweithlu: pwynt roedd Cynghorydd Price yn ei wneud—yn yr hirdymor, sicrhau dydyn ni ddim yn gorfod gwneud gymaint o fuddsoddiad yn y gweithlu presennol, oherwydd bod y system addysg yn dod â ni i bwynt le rŷn ni'n cynhyrchu'r bobl yna drwy'r system yna yn ei hanfod ta beth, bod Cymraeg digonol gyda nhw i gynnal sgyrsiau mewn gwersi drwy'r system maen nhw wedi elwa ohoni. Ond, yn y canol a'r byrdymor, y buddsoddi hwnnw yn y gweithlu a'r sicrhad bod yna eto, fel roeddwn i'n dweud o'r blaen, y dysgu proffesiynol yn ei le, bod y cynnig o ansawdd a bod y grantiau'n cefnogi'r mannau cywir.
Thank you. To go back, perhaps, to a point in terms of upskilling the workforce—and it's part of the answer to this as well—one of the things that we've done at a local level, of course, is accepting schools that say it's difficult to release staff for long periods of time. The supply of staff in the supply sector isn't necessarily there to allow the release of staff in the first place. So, what we have done to support primary schools in changing the language medium and upskilling staff is that we have located a tutor, every day, all day, in that school to work alongside the teacher or staff in the classroom. And I think that's been of great benefit in those examples where we've managed to do that, because what you have is not a divorce between the Welsh you teach and the Welsh that you use in work, but both come together, because the support is there in the classroom, side by side with the providers, and that has been successful. But, as I said, that is a heavy resource for us to provide.
In terms of the question regarding the success of the English-medium sector primarily, I think perhaps that reflecting and repeating a number of points that have already been made is what I would do, really, which also relates to investing in the workforce: the point that Councillor Price was making—in the long term, ensuring that we don't have to invest so much in the current workforce because the education system is producing those people through our system anyway, that they have sufficient Welsh to have a conversation in lessons through the system that they've benefited from. But, in the medium and short term, that investment in the workforce and ensuring, as I said before, that that professional learning is in place, that there is a quality offer and that the grants are supporting the right places.
Diolch, Meinir. Rŷn ni i mewn i'n 10 munud olaf ni nawr, ac rwy'n awyddus i Buffy Williams allu dod mewn. Darren, oedd unrhyw beth, yn gryno, roeddech chi eisiau ychwanegu at hwnna?
Thank you, Meinir. We're in our final 10 minutes now, and I'm keen for Buffy Williams to be able to come in. Darren, was there anything, briefly, that you wanted to add to that?
Na, dim byd i'w ychwanegu. Dwi'n hapus.
No, nothing to add. I'm happy.
Rŷch chi'n hapus—grêt. Buffy Williams.
You're happy—great. Buffy Williams.
Thank you, Chair, and thanks for joining us today. Could you tell us please what engagement takes place between local authorities and stakeholders in the development of WESPs and what role do stakeholders play in supporting the delivery of local authority targets?
Meinir.
Ie, yn sicr. O ran y rhanddeiliaid hynny, mae pob math o ymgynghori ac ymgysylltu yn digwydd cyn creu'r cynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg, ac yn rhan o'u monitro nhw hefyd. Y rhai mwyaf amlwg fyddai’r fforwm, yndê, y fforwm Cymraeg mewn addysg sydd gan bob awdurdod lleol, ac mae’n bwysig bod y fforwm yna’n gynrychioladol llwyr o'r awdurdodau hynny a'n bod ni ddim jest yn mynd at y mudiadau mwyaf amlwg i'n cynrychioli ni ar y fforymau, ond eu bod nhw'n cynrychioli'r gymdeithas gyfan ac yn ei hanfod.
Yn sicr, o ran ymgysylltu, enghraifft fan hyn yn lleol: fe wnaethom ni ymgysylltu gyda phob cyngor ysgol cyn ysgrifennu'n cynllun addysg Gymraeg o ran y plant a phobl ifanc eu hunain yn ogystal â’r fforymau ac yn ogystal ag ymgysylltu ac ymgynghori cyhoeddus—mae'r pethau yna i gyd yn eu lle. Ond rwy'n credu, o ran rhanddeiliaid, wrth symud ymlaen, mai’r allwedd yw sicrhau bod y fforymau iaith yna yn wir eang ac yn wir gynrychioli cymunedau'r awdurdodau lleol hynny, ac fel roeddwn i'n dweud, efallai nid grŵp mwy cyfyng o bobl sydd â diddordeb penodol mewn maes, ond eu bod nhw'n cynrychioli’r cyfan.
Yes, certainly. In terms of those stakeholders, there is all kinds of engagement and consultation before the WESPs are drawn up and they are also involved in monitoring them too. The most apparent would be the Welsh in education forum that every local authority has, and it's important that that forum is fully representative of the authority in that we don't just go to the most prominent organisations, but that they do represent society as a whole.
Certainly, in terms of engagement, an example here locally: we engaged with every school council before drawing up our WESPs in terms of the children and young people themselves, as well as the fora and as well as the public consultation that we undertook—all of those things are in place. But I think that, in terms of stakeholders, as we move forward, the key is to ensure that the language fora are broad and truly represent the communities within those local authorities and, as I said, are not a special interest group, perhaps, but that they do represent the whole scope of opinions.
Diolch, Meinir. Darren.
Yes, I think the word 'stakeholder' is an interesting one, I think, because what do we define as that? Clearly, we've got providers who work with us—so, we can think of early years providers, be they private sector, third sector, Mudiad Meithrin—they are vital in terms of developing these strategic plans. I know that councils have looked to do that over the past few years.
But, for me, the key stakeholders, really, are the public. What we often find is that there are cohorts of people who are yet to be convinced of the merits and the benefits of Welsh-medium education and it's absolutely vital that we address some of the concerns that they have head on. They are valid concerns, particularly from parents who are from—pupils from non-Welsh-speaking backgrounds. I think there is a really big piece of work that we need to do as councils across Wales really, to reassure those parents that, actually, there's a support mechanism in place and at the end of the journey, the child will have an additional skill, which may not be deliverable through another avenue. So, there's a big piece of work for me on that front.
So, when I think of stakeholders, yes, I think about those providers and the public sector organisations that we work with, but there's also that vitally important piece of work in terms of engaging with the public, not just on the overall strategy. And that's going back to the point I mentioned earlier in terms of the importance of Welsh Government as well in terms of really promoting that national message in terms of the benefits of bilingualism. But also, on a very local level, when we do decide, as authorities, to move certain schools along the continuum—that we do a really in-depth piece of work with those local communities through that process of change, because it can be unsettling and it can be worrying for certain cohorts and we have to recognise that.
Gwnaf i ddod â Meinir i mewn—yn gryno, os dwi'n gallu gofyn, Meinir, achos dim ond rhyw chwe munud sydd ar ôl gyda ni.
I'll bring Meinir in—briefly, please, Meinir, because we've only got about six minutes left.
Rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â Chynghorydd Price fanna. Ar ei orau, pan rŷn ni wedi newid cyfryngau ysgolion, rŷn ni wedi cydweithio gyda'r menter iaith, gyda'r tîm o amgylch y teulu, gyda chanolfannau teulu, ac yn y blaen. Felly, mae'r ymagwedd gydlynus yna'n hollbwysig wrth symud ymlaen. Ac mae sicrwydd, mewn gwirionedd, bod rhai o'n rhanddeiliaid ni yn y trydydd sector—bod eu grantiau nhw yn cyfeirio at y CSCAau, at eu gwaith nhw yn cefnogi CSCAau a'i fod e i mewn yna yn amodau a thelerau'r grantiau yn y trydydd sector, eu rôl hanfodol nhw yn cefnogi.
I totally agree with Councillor Price there. At its best, when we have changed the mediums of schools, we've worked with the menter iaith, with the family teams and family centres, and so on. So, that co-ordinated approach is very important in moving forward. And the certainty is, in fact, that some of our stakeholders in the third sector contribute to the WESPs and support the WESPs—that that is there in the conditions and terms of the grants in the third sector, in their crucial role in supporting the sector.
Diolch, Meinir. Buffy.
Thank you. And lastly from me, does the 10-year education workforce plan provide local authorities with the certainty required to deliver on their WESP targets? And how can the professional learning offer for staff be strengthened?
Diolch, Buffy. Pwy sydd eisiau mynd yn gyntaf? Meinir.
Thank you, Buffy. Who would like to go first? Meinir.
Diolch. Mae yna dipyn o waith trafod, dwi'n meddwl, i'w wneud o amgylch cynllun strategol a gweithlu 10 mlynedd. Dwi'n ymwybodol bod yna grwpiau ffocws a grwpiau wedi cael eu sefydlu sydd yn cwrdd yn fuan iawn i fynd i'r afael â rhoi'r strategaeth yna ar waith. Ac yn sicr, rŷn ni'n gweld rhai pethau'n barod, er enghraifft rôl y Brifysgol Agored yn datblygu, ac yn ariannu sector uwchradd i ddatblygu staff cyfrwng Cymraeg ac yn y blaen. Mae yna bethau eraill dwi'n siŵr y byddwn ni'n gallu ychwanegu at y cynllun yna mewn ffordd bragmataidd iawn fyddai'n datblygu y gweithlu deng mlynedd. Mae e'n yn ymwneud, yn ei hanfod, â gwneud addysgu yn broffesiwn lle mae pobl yn dymuno'n wirioneddol ac ag arddeliad i fynd i'r afael ag e. Felly, dyw e ddim jest y gweithlu cyfrwng Cymraeg, ond y gweithlu yn ei hanfod, onid e? Mae'n rhaid i'r proffesiwn fod yn broffesiwn sydd yn denu ac mae'n rhaid i ni gael y throughput yna drwy'n hysgolion ni. Un peth yw plant sy'n gwneud Cymraeg lefel A; mae'n rhaid bod y rheini'n gwneud gradd yn y Gymraeg i fod yn athrawon uwchradd yn y Gymraeg. Felly, mae darnau o'r daith yna ynglŷn â chymwysterau a pha mor apelgar yw cymwysterau cyfrwng Cymraeg, a'r Gymraeg yn ei hunan, yn bwysig iawn o ran y gweithlu yna.
Mae dysgu proffesiynol heb amheuaeth yn allweddol, nid jest i staff sydd angen mwy o hyder, ond bob man ar hyd y continwwm yma. Mae'r ddarpariaeth ddysgu proffesiynol yn hanfodol, ac mae gwell cydweithio yn sicr iawn rhwng ardaloedd yng Nghymru yn dechrau digwydd, ond mae yna gyfleoedd yn ogystal. Er enghraifft, mae gennym ni set o staff yn ein canolfannau iaith ni, yn ein canolfannau trochi ni mewn ardaloedd yng Nghymru, sydd yn hynod, hynod o sgilgar. Mae'r gwaith maen nhw'n ei wneud yn ardderchog. Ydyn ni'n rhannu'r gwaith yna yn ddigon strwythuredig ar draws pob rhan o'r sector? Dwi ddim yn siŵr, a dwi'n credu efallai bod y pethau yna'n bethau ymarferol iawn y gallwn ni fynd i'r afael â nhw.
Thank you. There is some discussion to be had around the 10-year workforce plan. I am aware that there are focus groups and other groups that have been established and will meet very soon to tackle the implementation of that strategy. And certainly, we are seeing certain things already; the role of the Open University is developing, and is funding the secondary sector in developing Welsh-medium staff. There are other things that I'm sure that we could add to that plan in a pragmatic manner that would develop the workforce over 10 years. And this relates essentially to making education a profession that people do truly want to be committed to. So, it's not just the Welsh-medium workforce. The whole profession has to be a profession that is attractive, and we must get that throughput through our schools. It's one thing for children to study Welsh at A-level; they would need a degree in Welsh to teach Welsh later. So, in terms of qualifications and how attractive Welsh qualifications are, that's all very important in terms of the workforce.
Professional development is crucial, not just for staff who need more confidence, but everywhere along the continuum, the provision of professional development is crucial and there needs to be improved co-operation between different areas of Wales, and that's starting to happen, but there are also opportunities. For example, we have a group of staff in our immersion centres in some areas of Wales who are highly skilled. The work that they do is excellent. But do we share that sufficiently and in a structured manner across all parts of the sector? I'm not sure, and I think those are very practical things that we could address.
Diolch, Meinir. Ac yn olaf i Darren.
Thank you, Meinir. And finally to Darren.
Diolch yn fawr. Rwy'n credu, fel rŷn ni wedi crybwyll yn gynt, mae'r [Anghlywadwy.] yma'n hollbwysig i lwyddiant y CSCAau ar draws Cymru. Rŷn ni wedi sôn lot am graffu, ac, wrth gwrs, mae craffu ar allu Llywodraeth Cymru i ddelifro cyflenwad o athrawon sy'n medru'r Gymraeg yn mynd i fod yn ganolog i lwyddiant y cynlluniau yma. Ac mae'n siŵr y byddwch chi fel pwyllgor dros y blynyddoedd nesaf yn cadw golwg ar hynny. Roedden ni'n sôn yn gynt bod angen trafodaeth barhaol a chyson rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a chynghorau lleol ynglŷn â fel rŷn ni'n bwrw ati ac fel rŷn ni'n mynd i'r afael â a chwrdd â'r targedau. Dwi'n credu ei bod hi'n hanfodol bwysig bod Aelodau o'r Senedd yn gyffredinol yn cadw eu llygaid ar y sefyllfa yma ynglŷn â chyflenwad athrawon dros y blynyddoedd nesaf, achos heb hynny, fyddwn ni ddim yn llwyddo. Mae hynny'n amlwg i bawb, felly mae'r sgyrsiau yna a'r craffu yna yn mynd i fod yn hanfodol bwysig wrth symud ymlaen. Diolch.
Thank you. I think, as we mentioned before, this is important for the success of WESPs across Wales. We've spoken a lot about scrutiny, and of course, scrutiny on the Welsh Government's ability to deliver a supply of teachers who can speak Welsh is going to be central to the success of these WESPs, and I'm sure that you as a committee over the next year will keep an eye on that. We were talking earlier about the need for continuous and regular discussion between Welsh Government and local councils on how we go forward and deliver the targets. I think it's important that Members of the Senedd in general keep their eyes on the situation regarding the supply of teachers over the next few years, because without that, it won't succeed. That is clear to everybody, and therefore, those conversations and that scrutiny are going to be essential in moving forwards. Thank you.
Diolch yn fawr iawn i'r ddau ohonoch chi. Wel, dŷn ni wedi dod i ben ein hamser gyda chi'r bore yma. Felly, bydd transgript o'r hyn dŷch chi wedi'i ddweud yn cael ei ddanfon atoch chi i chi wirio, ond diolch yn fawr iawn ar ran pob aelod o'r pwyllgor am bopeth dŷch chi wedi dweud wrthym ni. Diolch eto.
I'r Aelodau, fel y cytunwyd yn gynharach, byddwn ni nawr yn parhau yn breifat. Gwnawn ni aros i glywed bod ni'n breifat, ond diolch eto i'n tystion.
Thank you very much to both of you. We have reached the end of our time with you this morning. A transcript of what you said will be sent to you to check, but thank you very much on behalf of every member of the committee, and thank you for everything that you've told us. Thank you.
To Members, as we agreed previously, we'll continue in private. We'll wait to hear that we are in private session, but thank you to the witnesses again.
Diolch yn fawr.
Thank you very much.
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 12:48.
The public part of the meeting ended at 12:48.