Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon, a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol

Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

06/07/2022

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Alun Davies AS
Buffy Williams AS
Carolyn Thomas AS
Delyth Jewell AS Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Hefin David AS
Heledd Fychan AS
Sioned Williams AS

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Arwyn Thomas Consortia Gwella Ysgolion Rhanbarthol
Regional School Improvement Consortia
Clive Phillips Estyn
Estyn
Enlli Thomas Prifysgol Bangor
Bangor University
Hayden Llewellyn Cyngor y Gweithlu Addysg
Education Workforce Council

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Lleu Williams Clerc
Clerk
Martha Da Gama Howells Clerc
Clerk
Osian Bowyer Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Tanwen Summers Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor yn y Senedd a thrwy gynhadledd fideo.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:30.

The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference.

The meeting began at 09:30.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Bore da. Dyma estyn croeso i'r Aelodau i'r cyfarfod hwn o'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon, a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol.

Ein sesiwn gyntaf yw dechrau ein hymchwiliad i gynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg. Mae hyn yn rhywbeth cyffrous, achos mae'n ymchwiliad ar y cyd â'r Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg, ac rydym ni'n falch iawn o groesawu Sioned Williams a Buffy Williams i fod yma gyda ni y bore yma. Rwy'n hapus i fod yn cadeirio ymchwiliad cyntaf ar y cyd y chweched Senedd, ac rwy'n gobeithio y byddwn ni'n gallu gosod cynsail i eraill ei ddilyn yn hyn. Felly, mae hyn yn rhywbeth rili cyffrous.

Oes gan unrhyw Aelodau fuddiannau i'w datgan, os gwelwch yn dda? Dwi ddim yn gweld bod, felly mae hynny'n ffantastig.

Good morning. I extend a very warm welcome to Members to this meeting of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee.

Our first session is the start of our inquiry into Welsh in education strategic plans. This is very exciting, because it's a joint inquiry with the Children, Young People, and Education Committee, and we're very pleased to welcome Sioned Williams and Buffy Williams in joining us this morning. I'm very happy to be chairing this first joint inquiry of the sixth Senedd, and I hope that we can set a precedent for others to follow. So, this is really exciting.

Do any Members have any declarations of interest, please? I don't see any. That's fantastic.

2. Ymchwiliad i Gynlluniau Strategol Cymraeg mewn Addysg
2. Inquiry on Welsh in Education Strategic Plans

Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen yn syth at eitem 2, sef ymchwiliad i gynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg. Gaf i ofyn i'r tystion gyflwyno eu hunain ar gyfer y record, plis? Fe wnaf i ddod at Clive yn gyntaf.

We'll move straight on to item 2, which is the inquiry into Welsh in education strategic plans. May I ask the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record, please? I'll come to Clive first.

Bore da. Clive Phillips yn cynrychioli Estyn.

Good morning. I'm Clive Phillips, and I represent Estyn.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Clive. Fe wnaf i ddod at Hayden nesaf.

Thank you very much, Clive. I'll come to Hayden next.

Good morning, everybody, Hayden Llewellyn, chief executive of EWC, the Education Workforce Council.

Fantastic. Thank you, Hayden.

Fe wnawn ni fynd at Arwyn.

We'll go to Arwyn.

Bore da. Arwyn Thomas yn cynrychioli y rhanbarthau a'r partneriaethau addysg.

Good morning. Arwyn Thomas representing the regions and the education partnerships.

Brilliant. Ac fe wnawn ni fynd at Enlli.

Brilliant. And we'll go to Enlli.

Bore da. Enlli Thomas o Brifysgol Bangor.

Good morning. Enlli Thomas from Bangor University.

Ffantastig. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Fe wnawn ni symud yn syth at y cwestiynau, os ydych chi i gyd yn hapus i wneud, ac fe wnawn ni fynd yn gyntaf at Alun Davies.

Fantastic. Thank you very much. We'll move straight to questions if you're content to do so, and we will go first of all to Alun Davies.

Diolch yn fawr. Gaf i ofyn i'r tystion ydyn nhw'n meddwl bod fframwaith a strwythur y WESPs yn ddigonol i gyrraedd y targed o filiwn o siaradwyr?

Thank you. May I ask the witnesses whether they think that the framework and the structure of the WESPs is adequate to meet the target of a million Welsh speakers?

Neb. Ydy hynny'n ateb y cwestiwn?

No-one. Does that answer the question?

Bore da, Alun. Fe wnaethon ymateb i bob un o'r cynlluniau strategol a gyflwynwyd gan yr awdurdodau ac, yn sicr, fe welon ni bod y strwythur o gyflwyno cynlluniau dros 10 mlynedd wedi bod yn fuddiol, ac mae hynny'n caniatáu cynllunio mwy hirdymor. Ar y gorau, rŷn ni wedi gweld bod yna uchelgais, ôl meddwl a chynllunio gofalus gan yr awdurdodau, a bod rolau i fforymau ynghyd â chydweithio ymhlith rhanddeiliaid yn ganolog i'r rhai gorau sydd wedi cael eu cyflwyno.

Mae yna amrywiaeth—amrywiaeth ynglŷn ag ansawdd ac uchelgais. Ar y gorau, mae awdurdod fel Ceredigion yn awyddus iawn i symud, er enghraifft, eu hysgolion uwchradd nhw ar hyd y continwwm o'r categorïau ysgol, a symud chwech o'u saith ysgol i gategori 3, sydd yn arwyddocaol iawn o ran ei uchelgais ac sydd yn mynd i wneud gwahaniaeth arwyddocaol, dwi'n credu, i'r ddarpariaeth yn y sir. Rhai awdurdodau eraill yn rhannu gweledigaeth ac uchelgais tebyg, er enghraifft Gwynedd a Môn, felly, ond heb y sicrwydd gweithredu, efallai, sydd gan Geredigion.

Felly, ar y gorau, byddwn i'n dweud wrthych chi ar hyn o bryd fod rhai awdurdodau yn sicr wedi cymryd y cyfle a bod yna arwyddion y bydd hwn yn cyfrannu'n dda at uchelgais 2050, ond mae yna wahaniaethau mawr ac amrywiaethau mawr yn y cynlluniau.

Good morning, Alun. We responded to each of the WESPs that were submitted by the authorities and, certainly, we saw that the structure of presenting plans over a period of 10 years was beneficial, and that allows longer term planning. At best, we've seen that there is an ambition and careful thinking and planning by authorities in this sense, and that roles for fora as well as joint working among stakeholders are central to some of the best plans that have been submitted.

There is variation—variation with regard to quality and ambition. At best, an authority such as Ceredigion is very keen to move, for example, their secondary schools along the continuum of school categories, and move six of their seven schools to category 3, which is very significant in terms of ambition and is going to make a significant difference, I think, to the provision in the county. Other local authorities share vision and ambition in a similar manner, for example Gwynedd and Môn, but perhaps without the certainty of operation that Ceredigion has.

So, at best, I would say and tell you, currently, that some authorities, certainly, have taken the opportunity and that there are signs that this will contribute well to the ambition of 2050, but there are great differences and great variations in the plans.

Gaf i dorri ar eich traws chi yn fanna? Y cwestiwn oedd: ydy strwythur a fframwaith y WESPs yn ddigonol? A beth rŷch chi wedi ei wneud yw disgrifio'r amrywiaeth yn y WESPs ar draws y wlad. Nawr, mae hynny'n dweud wrthyf i fod y strwythur ddim yn ddigonol oherwydd mae'n caniatáu i awdurdodau lleol fethu a ffaelu cyrraedd y math o dargedau ac ansawdd rŷn ni eu hangen. So, mae hynny’n awgrymu i fi bod WESPs fel polisi, fel fframwaith, ddim yn ddigonol.

Can I just cut across there, please? The question was whether the structure and the framework of the WESPs are sufficient. And what you've done is describe the variation in WESPs across the nation. Now, that tells me that the structure isn't sufficient because it enables local authorities to fail and to fail to reach the kinds of targets and quality that we need. So, that suggests to me that the WESPs as a policy and as a framework aren't sufficient.

09:35

Dyna le'r oeddwn i'n cyrraedd ato, Alun. Ie, dwi'n credu bod angen cryfhau'r sail gyfreithiol, y ddeddfwriaeth yn ôl y WESPs yma, i'w gwneud nhw'n gryfach ac yn fwy grymusol, ac i godi'r bar, er enghraifft, yn yr awdurdodau, efallai, sydd ddim wedi cymryd y cyfle hyd yma i fanteisio ar y cyfle hwn i gynllunio'n strategol dros y 10 mlynedd nesaf.

That's where I was getting to. I think there's a need to strengthen the legal framework, the legislation, for the WESPs, to strengthen them and to make them stronger and more empowered, and to raise the bar, perhaps, in the local authorities that haven't taken advantage of this opportunity to plan strategically over the next 10 years.

Oes unrhyw un arall eisiau dod i mewn? Arwyn.

Does anybody else want to come in? Arwyn.

Ie, os caf i ddod i mewn i ategu rhai o'r pethau yr oedd Clive yn eu dweud, ac i fynd nôl i gwestiwn Alun, mae'n debyg ein bod ni eisiau gosod y cynlluniau yma hefyd, onid oes? Buaswn i'n gofyn y cwestiwn: a ydyn ni'n glir beth ydy ein diffiniad ni o siaradwr Cymraeg yn y lle cyntaf? Rydyn ni'n sôn am tuag at filiwn o siaradwyr, ac mae siaradwr Cymraeg—. Mae yna ddiffiniadau gwahanol o beth ydy siaradwr, a beth ydy siaradwr yn saith, 11, 14 ac yn y blaen, drwy'r oedrannau ysgol, lle rydyn ni wedi bod yn arfer mesur cynnydd disgyblion. Felly, mae angen mwy o eglurder o beth ydy ein diffiniad ni o siaradwyr. Ac yn ôl i gwestiwn Alun am y filiwn, ydyn ni'n glir ai uchelgais, nod, abwyd neu darged real ydy'r filiwn o siaradwyr? Wedyn, dŷn ni'n dod â fo lawr i'r fframweithiau eu hunain—

Yes, if I may come in, just to echo some of the things that Clive said and go back to Alun's original question, it appears that we need to implement these plans. I would ask the question about whether we are clear about the definition of a Welsh speaker in the first instance. I think that we talk about this shift towards a million Welsh speakers, but there are different definitions of a Welsh speaker and what a Welsh speaker is at age seven, 11, 14 and so on, throughout the school ages, where we're used to measuring pupil progress. So, we need greater clarity with regard to the definition of speakers. Returning to Alun's question about the million Welsh speakers, are we clear about whether this is ambition, an aim appetite or a real target in terms of a million Welsh speakers? Then you bring it down to the framework level—

Arwyn, mae'n flin gen i i dorri ar draws, ond roedd Alun jest eisiau dod i mewn ar hwnna. Sori doedd y meic ddim ymlaen—sori am hwnna.

Arwyn, I'm sorry to cut across, but Alun wanted to come in on that. Sorry, the mike wasn't on—sorry about that.

Ie, dwi'n deall beth sydd gyda chi, ond mae yna hen ddigon o drafod wedi bod amboutu beth yw siaradwr Cymraeg, a dwi ddim yn gweld bod hynny'n bwysig, rili, yn y drafodaeth yma. Dŷn ni'n sôn amboutu cynllunio addysg, dŷn ni'n sôn amboutu'r cynlluniau strategol hyn, ac mae eich cyfaill fan hyn, Mr Phillips, wedi dweud bod y cynlluniau sydd gyda ni ddim yn ddigonol, dydy'r fframwaith o gynlluniau ddim yn ddigonol. Mae'r cwestiwn o sut rŷn ni'n diffinio Cymro neu Gymraes Cymraeg yn bwysig, ond yn bwysig mewn cyd-destun gwahanol. I fi, beth sy'n bwysig fan hyn yw sut rŷn ni'n cynllunio'r strwythur addysg. Ydy hynny'n dipyn bach o red herring fan hyn?

Yes, I understand what you're getting at, but there's been a lot of discussion about what is a Welsh speaker, and I don't see that that's important, really, in this discussion. We're talking about education planning, we're talking about these strategic plans, and your colleague here, Mr Phillips, has said that the plans we have aren't sufficient, that the framework for the plans isn't sufficient. The question of how you define a Welsh-speaking person is important, but it's important in a different context. To me, what's important here is how we plan the education structure. Is that a bit of a red herring here?

Na. 'Ar gyfer beth ydych chi'n cynllunio?', Alun, byddai'r cwestiwn y byddwn i'n ei ofyn wedyn. Mae'n rhaid i ni fod yn glir beth rydyn ni'n cynllunio ar ei gyfer. Mae'n debyg, wrth edrych ar ofynion y fframweithiau—a dwi'n meddwl bod papur Estyn wedi bod yn edrych ar y rhain yn fwy gofalus nac yr ydyn ni wedi bod yn ei wneud, o safbwynt mynediad atyn nhw—dwi'n meddwl bod yr amrywiaeth yn cael ei nodi yn glir yna. Ond hefyd, mae'n rhaid gofyn y cwestiwn wedyn, onid oes: wrth dderbyn y cynlluniau hyn, beth ydy'r achos ac effaith os ydyn nhw'n ddigon uchelgeisiol neu beidio, neu os ydyn nhw'n ddigon grymus neu beidio? A dydy hynny ddim i'w weld yn glir os oes yna broses os ydy'r Llywodraeth yn teimlo nad oes yna ddim digon o uchelgais, nad oes yna ddim digon o symud. Mae’r cynlluniau yn cael eu derbyn, ond oes digon o achos ac effaith i wahanol ansawdd o gynlluniau yn y lle cyntaf?

Un peth arall, mae'n debyg, wrth edrych ar y cynlluniau, ydy ein bod ni'n ceisio symud ysgolion a chynllunio isadeiledd yr ysgolion o un cyfrwng i gyfrwng arall, a dyna pam dwi'n gwneud y pwynt am y siaradwr Cymraeg. Un o'r llyffetheiriau, mae'n debyg, sydd yn gyfrifol am yr uchelgais, neu'r diffyg uchelgais, yn rhai o'r cynlluniau ydy'r heriau sydd yna o newid ysgol o un categori i'r llall. Ac mae'n rhaid gofyn y cwestiwn: ai dyna ydy'r unig ateb i gyrraedd y filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg? Wrth gael continwwm clir wedi'i adnabod, sydd wedyn yn rhoi llinell glir i bobl sydd yn cynllunio profiadau i ddisgyblion ar gyfer y cwricwlwm newydd, mae'r cyfleoedd yna wedyn i adnabod lle mae pob ysgol, lle bod pob ysgol ar y daith yna. Mae perygl ein bod ni'n cyrraedd trafodaeth lle rydyn ni'n cael yr absoliwt o un ai bod ysgolion yn cyfrannu tuag at y Gymraeg neu dydyn nhw ddim. Rydyn ni eisiau bod pob ysgol, os ydyn ni am gyrraedd miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg, yn glir ar y daith yna.

Pwynt arall, mae'n debyg, y byddwn i'n ei wneud ydy bod yn rhaid i bob polisi sy'n dod allan o'r Llywodraeth fanteisio ar bob cyfle i atgyfnerthu'r daith tuag at y filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg. Os gwnawn ni gymryd y fframwaith gwella ysgolion newydd a gafodd ei gyhoeddi yr wythnos diwethaf, oes, mae yna gyfeiriad ar ddechrau'r ddogfen at filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg, ond pan rydyn ni'n mynd i weld beth yn union mae ysgolion unigol yn gorfod adrodd arno yn y fframwaith yna, dydy'r Gymraeg ddim yn un o'r elfennau penodol yna. Felly, os ydyn ni eisiau cael y fframwaith statudol yma i weithio ym mhob un o'r awdurdodau, mae'n rhaid inni weld wedyn beth ydy'r llwybr i bob ysgol gyfrannu tuag at y nodau yna sydd yn cael eu gosod, neu mae'n bosib y bydd gennych chi fwlch rhwng y strategol a'r gweithredol i wireddu'r nodau sy'n cael eu gosod. 

No. It is a question of what basis you're planning on, isn't it? We need to be clear about what we are planning for. Looking at the requirements of the frameworks—and I think that Estyn's paper considers these issues in greater detail than we've been able to do, from our point of view—there's some variation that's clearly noted there. So, we have to ask the question: in accepting these plans, what is the cause and effect if they're sufficiently ambitious or not, or if they're sufficiently powerful or not? That isn't to be seen clearly in terms of whether there's a process if the Government feels that there isn't sufficient ambition and movement. The plans are accepted, but is there enough cause and effect there in terms of the quality of plans in the first instance?

Again, looking at the plans themselves, the other issue is that we are trying to move schools and the planning of school infrastructure from one medium to another, and that's why I made the point about the Welsh speaker. One of the fetters that is responsible for the ambition, or the lack of ambition, in some of the plans is the challenge in terms of moving a school from one category to another. You have to ask the question about whether that's the only answer to reach a million Welsh speakers. And in having a clear, acknowledged, recognised continuum that provides a clear line for people planning learner experiences for the new curriculum, and so on, the opportunities are there then to identify where each school is, so that every school is on that journey. There's a danger that we're reaching a point where we have the absolute that either a school contributes towards the Welsh language or doesn't do that. But, we want every school, if we are to reach a million Welsh speakers, to be clearly on that journey.

The other point I would make is that policies—and every policy, indeed—emanating from Government has to take advantage of every opportunity to reinforce the journey towards a million Welsh speakers. If we take the school improvement framework that was announced and published last week, yes, there is reference at the beginning of that document to a million Welsh speakers, but when we look at what exactly individual schools have to report on in that framework, the Welsh language isn't one of the specific elements there. So, if we want to have that statutory framework to work in all of the local authorities, we need to see then what the route is for each school to contribute towards the objectives that are set, or you might have a gap between the strategic and the operational to achieve the objectives that are set. 

09:40

Cyn bod Alun yn dod nôl, Enlli neu Hayden, a oeddech chi eisiau ychwanegu unrhyw beth?

Before Alun comes back, Enlli or Hayden, would you like to add anything?

If I may, it's Hayden from the Education Workforce Council. The EWC's main interest, for obvious reasons, is the workforce. That's the body that we're involved with. It's pretty clear, I think there's no secret that there are some challenges in this area. Our data, which stretches back 20 years, shows that the number of Welsh-speaking teachers hasn't changed; it has not gone up, it has not gone down in 20 years. It's the same as those able to teach through the medium of Welsh, it has not changed at all. The Welsh Government has set aims in terms of getting greater numbers into teacher training, but it is a challenge—variable in different parts of Wales, but a challenge right across the board. 

We are encouraged by the Welsh Government's very recent 10-year action plan for recruitment, but it's very clear that no one thing will fix this and make it better and get greater numbers of Welsh educators into the workforce. It's going to be a long haul. That's variable in different authorities; that's a greater challenge in certain authorities than others. What we need, and again I think it's no secret, is a supply chain of Welsh speakers coming through from school and then hopefully moving on to be teachers and learning support staff. So, there is certainly still work to do in terms of the WESPs, but it's not a magic bullet on this one, I'm afraid.

Dydw i heb weld y WESPs diweddaraf, felly dydw i ddim yn gallu ymateb i beth sydd wedi cael ei gynnig fel cynnwys. Ond, jest eisiau gofyn y cwestiwn ydw i: a oes yna ddigon o annogaeth, efallai, i gynllunio ar sail fwy holistaidd, lle mae'r cynllunio yna yn mynd i wraidd beth ydy rhai o'r rhesymau pam dydy rhai disgyblion ddim yn datblygu efo'r Gymraeg pan fydd y cyfle yna i fedru gwneud? Un peth ydy rhoi'r cyfle a rhoi'r Gymraeg i blant, peth arall ydy sicrhau bod y plant efo'r—wel, yn Saesneg buasech chi'n dweud attitude, motivation, yr elfennau hynny i gyd sydd yn rhan greiddiol o fod yn datblygu sgiliau iaith. Ac yn aml iawn, mae'r sgiliau yna yn cael eu hanghofio yn y cynlluniau. Felly, fel dwi'n ei ddweud, dwi heb weld y cynlluniau cyfredol, felly dydw i ddim yn gwybod i ba raddau mae yna bwyslais digonol yn cael ei roi ar y seilwaith yna sy'n angenrheidiol er mwyn gallu datblygu'r plant yn addysgol, wedyn, drwy'r Gymraeg.

I haven't seen the latest WESPs, so I can't respond to what has been offered as content. But I just want to ask the question: is there sufficient encouragement, perhaps, to plan on a more holistic basis, where that planning gets to the core of what some of the reasons are regarding why some pupils don't develop with the Welsh language when the opportunity is there? It's one thing to provide the opportunity and give children the Welsh language, but it's another thing to ensure that children have—well, in English you'd say the attitude and motivation, those elements that are a core part of developing language skills. And very often, those skills are forgotten in the plans. So, as I said, I haven't seen the current WESPs, so I don't know to what extent there is a sufficient emphasis being placed on that infrastructure that is necessary in order to develop these children educationally in the Welsh language.

Reit, ocê. Diolch. So, dŷn ni wedi gweld rhai awdurdodau lleol yn llwyddo i gyflwyno WESPs sydd yn gweithio a rhai yn methu, a dwi'n cymryd bod y rhan fwyaf ohonyn nhw rhywle yn y canol. Mae'n amlwg o'ch atebion bod y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol yn methu. So, mae awdurdodau lleol yn methu oherwydd dydyn nhw ddim yn cael eu gorfodi gan y Llywodraeth i sicrhau WESPs digonol. So, sut y buasech chi, fel arbenigwyr, yn newid y system i orfodi awdurdodau lleol i gynllunio mewn ffordd sydd yn gryfach, ac sy'n cyfrannu at gyrraedd y targedau sydd gyda ni?

Thank you. So, we have seen some local authorities successfully putting forward WESPs that do work and some failing, and I presume that the majority of the others are somewhere in the middle. And it's clear from your responses that the current legislation is failing. So, local authorities are failing because they aren't being compelled by Government to ensure that the WESPs are adequate. So, how would you, as experts in this field, change the system to require local authorities to plan in a way that is stronger, and that contributes towards the targets that we've set? 

09:45

Un o'r prif wendidau, rwy'n credu, yn y cynlluniau presennol yw nad oes digon o sylw yn y cynlluniau i ehangu'r ddarpariaeth yn yr ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg. Er mwyn cyrraedd targedau 2050, bydd angen i ganran uchel o ddisgyblion sy'n gadael ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg i fod yn rhugl hefyd yn y Gymraeg er mwyn cwrdd â'r targedau yna, fel y dywedais i. Felly, mae angen gweddnewid sut mae'r Gymraeg yn cael ei haddysgu mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg, yn bennaf. 

Mae'r cwricwlwm arfaethedig yn rhoi pwyslais ar yr elfen lafar, fel rŷm ni'n gwybod, er mwyn creu a meithrin siaradwyr. Ond, mae angen hefyd rhoi cyfleoedd i'r dysgwyr yna i ddefnyddio'r iaith mewn cyd-destunau gwahanol er mwyn iddyn nhw ddod yn siaradwyr cadarn, hyderus, ac yn y blaen. Nid yw'n eglur ar hyn o bryd beth yw'r strategaeth genedlaethol i hyrwyddo hyn, a fanna, dwi'n credu, yw un o'r prif wendidau ynglŷn â'r cynlluniau presennol. Byddai cael eglurder ynglŷn â hynny yn allweddol, a deddfwriaeth efallai o gwmpas hynny o ran sut mae ysgolion hefyd yn mynd i symud ar hyd y categori iaith, a disgwyliadau ynglŷn ag ehangu'r ddarpariaeth mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg, yn yr uwchradd yn bennaf. Felly, dyna fel dwi'n gweld, Alun, un o'r prif heriau i symud hwn ymlaen.

One of the main weaknesses, I think, in the current plans is that there's not enough attention in the plans to develop provision in English-medium schools. To reach the 2050 targets, there will be a need for a high percentage of pupils who leave English-medium schools to be fluent in the Welsh language as well in order to meet those targets, as I said. So, there is a need to transform the way that Welsh is taught in English-medium schools, primarily.  

The proposed curriculum places an emphasis on the oral element, as we know, in order to create and nurture Welsh speakers. But, there is a need also to provide opportunities for those learners to use the language in different contexts in order for them to become confident and strong Welsh speakers, and so forth. It's not clear currently what the national strategy is to promote this, and there, I think, is one of the main weaknesses regarding the current plans. Getting clarity on that would be key, and perhaps legislation around that to see how schools are going to move across the language category, and expectations regarding expanding provision in English-medium schools, in the secondary sector, mainly. So, that's how I see some of the main challenges, Alun, in moving this forward. 

Grêt. Diolch, Clive. Beth mae pawb arall yn ei feddwl? Arwyn.

Thank you, Clive. What does everyone else think? Arwyn.

Dwi'n cytuno. Mae yna ddau beth. Un peth am gwestiwn Alun ydy'r achos a'r effaith o beth sy'n cael ei gyfrif yn gynllun llwyddiannus ai peidio. Ar hyn o bryd, dydy'r berthynas rhwng Llywodraeth ganolog a llywodraeth leol am beth sydd yn cyfrif yn llwyddiannus a'r dal i gyfrif yna—. Os ydych chi'n symud yn llwyddiannus ar hyd y llwybr yma, mewn ffordd, beth ydy'r—mae'n anodd iawn defnyddio'r geiriau—beth ydy'r wobr? A oes yna gyfraniad ychwanegol i'r awdurdodau yna sydd yn mynd ymhellach ar hyd y daith yna? 

Mae hynna ar lefel yr awdurdod. I lawr i lefel yr ysgolion, mae'n eithaf clir—a dwi'n cytuno'n llwyr efo Clive—mae'r symudiad o ysgolion lle mae yna lai o Gymraeg yn cael ei siarad, fanna mae'r symudiad angen ei wneud. Fel rhanbarthau a phartneriaethau efo'i gilydd, rydyn ni wedi dod i'r farn bod angen inni gynnig cynnig proffesiynol cenedlaethol rhyngom ni, lle rydyn ni'n gallu adnabod yr arferion gorau, os ydy o'n sir Fynwy, sir Fôn neu lle bynnag ydy o, ein bod ni'n dod at ein gilydd ac yn creu rhaglen genedlaethol. Byddai hynny, mae'n debyg, yn cefnogi'r ysgolion yna sydd efo peth gallu ieithyddol oddi mewn i wneud y symudiad, a'n bod ni'n gallu rhannu'r arferion a'r adnoddau ymhlith ein gilydd ar draws Cymru i wneud y symudiad yna. 

Mae'r her y mae Hayden wedi'i nodi nid yn unig yn her i ysgolion lle mae yna ddim ond ychydig o siaradwyr Cymraeg ymhlith y staff, mae'n dod yn fwyfwy o her i ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg hefyd yn ogystal oherwydd y prinder o athrawon sydd yn mynychu cyrsiau iaith gyntaf. Felly, mae elfen y gweithlu—. Unwaith eto, efallai bod angen edrych ar annog pobl ifanc i fynd i mewn i ddilyn cyrsiau addysg trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, oherwydd mae'n debyg pe bai chi'n edrych—mae Hayden efo mwy o fanylion nag sydd gen i—ar yr uwchradd ar lefel pynciol y Gymraeg, mae hwnna'n her. 

Felly, mae yna le i ddod yn dorfol at ein gilydd yn rhanbarthol i roi'r cynnig proffesiynol i rai ysgolion, ond hefyd mae angen marchnata'r byd addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg ar gyfer ein plant a'n pobl ifanc ni sy'n dod drwy'r system hefyd.

Yes, I agree. There are two things. One thing in Alun's question is the cause and effect in terms of what is considered a successful scheme or not. At the moment, the relationship between central Government and local government about what counts as success and that accountability—. If you move successfully along this path, in a way—it's very difficult to find the right word—what is the reward? Is there an additional contribution to the authorities that do go further along this journey? 

That's on the authority level. Down to the school level, it's quite clear—and I agree entirely with Clive—the shift in terms of schools where less Welsh is spoken, that's where movement needs to happen. As regions and partnerships together, we've come to the view that we need to provide a national professional offer between us, where we can identify best practice, be it in Monmouthshire or Anglesey, wherever it is, that we come together then and create that national programme. That would support those schools that have some linguistic capacity within them to make that shift, and we can share the practice and the resources together across Wales to facilitate that shift.

The challenge that Hayden has outlined isn't just a challenge for schools where there are only very few Welsh speakers amongst staff, it's becoming more of a challenge for Welsh-medium schools as well because of a lack of teachers undertaking Welsh as a first language courses. So, we need to look at this workforce element. Once again, we may need to encourage young people to study educational courses through the medium of Welsh, because it appears that if you look—and Hayden has more detail on this than I have—at the secondary sector in terms of Welsh as a subject, that's a challenge too. 

So, there is a role for us to come together regionally to provide that professional support to schools, but we also need to market the sphere of Welsh-medium education to our children and young people who are coming through the system too.

09:50

Diolch am hynny, Arwyn. Ar y gweithlu, byddwn ni'n mynd i mewn i fwy o fanylder am hynny yn hwyrach ymlaen yn y sesiwn. Mae hynny'n rhywbeth yn sicr y byddwn ni eisiau clywed mwy amdano fe yn hwyrach ymlaen. Diolch am hynny. Oedd Hayden neu Enlli eisiau ychwanegu unrhyw beth? Does dim rhaid i bawb ddod i mewn ar bob cwestiwn o gwbl, ond os oedd unrhyw beth, croeso ichi wneud.  

Thank you for that, Arwyn. Regarding the workforce, we will go into that in more detail later on in the session. That is certainly something that we would want to hear more about later on. Hayden or Enlli, would you like to add anything? Everybody doesn't have to come in on every question, but you're more than welcome to. 

I'd just like to add one point, if I may, just stimulated by what Clive said. If there are some local authority WESPs that are good, then let's learn the lessons from those ones and take a look at what is good and encourage other local authorities to learn from that good practice in terms of further developing their WESPs. Hopefully, that fits in with what Alun's question was there in terms of looking more closely at whether the frameworks are good enough. Let's try to learn the lessons from the better ones. 

Can I just ask, on that point, do you think that's enough, because there's enough in terms of sharing best practice and so on, but do you think that will really deliver what's needed here, just sharing best practice, or do we need other tools, as has been suggested, in terms of a better basis in terms of legislation or stronger legislation?

That's my view as well, actually. Local authorities spend enough time sitting around in the Metropole in Llandrindod as it is. Surely, in the last 20 years, they would have learned something from each other. 

Nothing further to add. Actually, my knowledge is the workforce, rather than the detail of the WESPs and the wider aspects—[Inaudible.]

Ynglŷn â'r ddeddfwriaeth, dwi'n credu bod yna le i gryfhau'r ddeddfwriaeth i hyrwyddo ac i hybu yr ymgais i gael mwy o siaradwyr Cymraeg. Er enghraifft, mae cod ar gyfer ad-drefnu ysgolion a byddai cael deddfwriaeth sy'n clymu unrhyw ad-drefnu ysgolion gyda chynllun strategol y Gymraeg mewn addysg yr awdurdod hynny, i gael y cyswllt yna'n glir, a bod y ddau beth yna'n cydredeg, yn gymorth ac yn abwyd i awdurdodau wneud yn siŵr bod unrhyw gynlluniau sydd ganddyn nhw i agor ysgolion newydd neu i ad-drefnu mewn ffyrdd gwahanol—bod y cyllid yn dilyn yr awydd a'r targedau sydd ganddyn nhw yn eu cynlluniau strategol. Dyna un enghraifft, efallai, lle y gallai deddfwriaeth gynorthwyo a chryfhau effaith y cynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg. 

Regarding the legislation, I think there is a way of strengthening the legislation to promote the attempt to achieve more Welsh speakers. For example, for school reorganisation, having legislation in place, tying any reorganisation to the WESPs of that local authority and to have that connection clear, that both of those issues run together, would be a bait for local authorities to ensure that, for any plans they have to open new schools or to reorganise in a different manner, the funding follows the desire and the targets that they have in their strategic plans. That's one example, perhaps, where legislation could assist and strengthen the impact of the WESPs.

Ocê. Diolch am hynna, Clive. Mae'n flin gen i, oherwydd amser, dwi'n ymwybodol nawr y bydd yn rhaid inni symud ymlaen, os ydy Alun yn hapus inni wneud hynny. Felly, gwnawn ni fynd at Heledd Fychan. 

Okay. Thank you for that. Apologies, because of time, I am aware now that we'll have to move on, if Alun is happy for us to do so. So, we'll go to Heledd Fychan. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi, a bore da. Diolch am ymuno â ni heddiw. Dŷch chi wedi cyfeirio at hyn yn barod ym mheth o'ch tystiolaeth, ond dwi jest eisiau deall yn well, os gwelwch yn dda, sut y mae awdurdodau lleol wedi bod yn ymgysylltu â chi fel partneriaid allweddol o ran proses ddrafft y cynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg. Ac ydych chi'n meddwl bod y broses yma wedi gwella, neu oes yna le i wella ymhellach? Dwi ddim yn gwybod pwy sydd eisiau mynd gyntaf. 

Thank you very much, and good morning. Thank you for joining us today. You've referred to this already in some of your evidence, but I just wanted to understand better, please, how local authorities have been engaging with you as key partners in terms of the draft WESP process. And do you think that this process has improved or is there room for further improvement? I don't know who wants to go first. 

Gwnaf i ddechrau y tro yma. Mae'n debyg ei fod yn fwy perthnasol i ni yn fan hyn yn y rhanbarthau. Amrywiol iawn ydy'r ymgysylltu yna wedi bod. Mae'r cyfrifoldeb statudol, fel dŷn ni'n nodi, am y cynlluniau yma yn gorwedd yn yr awdurdod, ac maen nhw'n tueddu hefyd i ganolbwyntio, fel mae'r fframwaith yn ei wneud, ar yr isadeiledd yn yr ysgolion ac i newid categorïau ysgolion ac i gynyddu'r niferoedd. Mae'n debyg bod hwnna'n un o, os liciwch chi, ffaeleddau'r fframwaith: dŷn ni fel bod angen rhoi'r dewis binary yma, bron iawn, i riant eich bod chi naill ai mewn un math o gyfrwng neu'r llall. Felly, mae hynny'n rhan o gynllunio'r isadeiledd sy'n mynd drwy'r cynlluniau.

Ond i fynd yn ôl i'ch cwestiwn blaenorol chi am gryfhau deddfwriaeth hefyd, os ydych chi'n edrych ar y cwricwlwm newydd ac os ydych chi'n edrych ar y fframwaith gwella ysgolion a gafodd ei gyhoeddi yr wythnos diwethaf, ein rôl ni fel rhanbarthau, yn naturiol, yw cefnogi'r staff yn yr ysgolion, yr athrawon, i gryfhau eu gallu i gynnig profiadau i ddisgyblion drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. 

Felly, dŷn ni eisiau dod â'r cynllun cenedlaethol yna. Mi ddylai fod hynny wedyn yn gorwedd fel model gweithredol o sut i wireddu'r targedau yma'n fwy amlwg, byddwn i'n dadlau, yn rhai o'r cynlluniau yma'n benodol. Ac i glymu'r ddau beth at ei gilydd, mae'r canllaw sydd wedi dod allan yr wythnos diwethaf—os ydyn ni'n cryfhau'r gofyn ar ysgolion i adrodd ar gynnydd i'r llwybr Cymraeg yn fanno, yn naturiol, wedyn, mae yna le inni ddod â gwaith yr awdurdod a gwaith y rhanbarthau at ei gilydd i fesur cynnydd ac i fedru adrodd i fyny i'r fframweithiau yma i wneud hynny. Ond i ateb y cwestiwn ar ei ben, mae'n amrywiol, a dim ond mewn ychydig iawn o lefydd mae'r rhanbarthau wedi bod yn cyfrannu at y fframweithiau.

I'll start this time. It's more relevant to us here in the regions. It's very varied, that engagement. The statutory responsibility, as we've noted, for the plans is within the authority, and they tend to focus, as the framework does, on the infrastructure in schools and to change school categories and to increase numbers. And apparently that's one of the deficiencies, if you like, of the framework. It's as if we need to provide this binary choice to a parent, that you choose one medium or the other. So, that is part of planning the infrastructure that runs through the plans.

But going back to your previous question regarding strengthening legislation, if you look at the new curriculum and if you look at the school improvement framework that was published last week, our role with the regions, naturally, is to support staff in schools, the teachers, to strengthen their ability to provide experiences to pupils through the medium of Welsh.

So, we want to bring that national plan. That should lie as an operational model of how to realise these targets more clearly, I would argue, in some of these plans specifically. And to tie both of these matters together, the guidance that was published last week—if we strengthen the requirement on schools to report on progress on the Welsh language path there, then naturally, then, there is room to bring the work of the authority and the work of the regions together, to measure progress and to report up to these frameworks to do so. But to answer the question, it's varied, and only in some places have the regions been contributing to the frameworks.

09:55

Diolch. A oes yna rywun arall eisiau dod mewn? Dwi ddim yn gwybod, Hayden, o ran y gweithlu, ydych chi'n teimlo bod yna ddigon o ymgysylltu a chydweithio efo'r gweithlu? 

Thank you. Does anybody else want to come in on that? I don't know, Hayden, in terms of the workforce, do you feel that there is sufficient engagement and collaboration with the workforce? 

Where we've had involvement from local authorities in this space, it's been via regional consortia. So, it's generally been consortia getting the local authorities that they work with in their network together, and inviting the EWC to speak and work with them. Some of the consortia have been providing detailed data down to school level in terms of the workforce who are Welsh speakers, who teach through the medium of Welsh, age breakdown, subjects, et cetera, to use for workforce planning locally. 

Other work in other consortia, including Arwyn's own one very recently—. We spoke about how the new national website, Educators Wales, and the service EWC now offers on behalf of the Welsh Government in terms of trying to attract people into the profession as teachers and support staff—how we might utilise that working with the different authorities in the north through GwE. So, we have done some work, but it's generally been through consortia, working with the authorities that they're in.

Ar lefel weithredol yn yr awdurdodau, dwi'n credu bod y fforymau iaith wedi cael dylanwad mewn rhai awdurdodau o ran ymgysylltu gyda gwahanol randdeiliaid, a dylanwadu ar gynnwys y cynlluniau addysg. Dwi'n credu mai un o'r rhai rŷn ni wedi adnabod fel un o'r rhai clyfar, efallai, yw Casnewydd, yn bendant—y ffordd maen nhw wedi cynorthwyo'r awdurdod i gyflwyno cynllun sy'n deilwng iawn o'r cyd-destun a'r sefyllfa yng Nghasnewydd ar hyn o bryd. Felly, lle mae'r fforymau yn effeithiol, mae hwnna yn gymorth hefyd i sicrhau bod y cynlluniau yma yn addas i bwrpas. 

On an operational level in the authorities, I think the language fora have had an influence in some local authorities regarding engagement with stakeholders, and influencing the content of the WESPs. I think one of the ones that we've recognised as being one of the strongest ones is Newport, where certainly the way that they have assisted the authority to present a plan that is very worthy of the context and situation in Newport at present. So, where the fora are effective, that does provide assistance to ensure that these plans are fit for purpose.

Diolch. Mi fuaswn i'n hoffi clywed gan Enlli. Dwi'n gwybod ei fod ychydig bach yn wahanol o ran yr ymchwil fan yna, ond yn amlwg mae yna rôl bwysig o ran ymchwil a rôl prifysgolion ac ati, sydd yn chwarae rôl o ran addysgu a hyfforddi i'r dyfodol. Ydych chi'n meddwl ein bod ni'n gwneud digon, neu efallai'n colli cyfleoedd o ran gwella darpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg oherwydd bod yna ddim digon o gydweithio ac ymgysylltu effeithiol gyda'r holl randdeiliaid, megis prifysgolion? 

Thank you. I'd like to hear from Enlli. I know it's slightly different in terms of the research there, but clearly there is an important role for research and the role of universities and so on, which play a role in terms of teaching and training for the future. Do you think that we are doing enough, or perhaps missing opportunities in terms of improving Welsh-medium provision because there isn't enough engagement with all stakeholders, such as universities? 

Mae o'n deg dweud, dwi'n meddwl, fod yna gynnydd aruthrol wedi bod yn yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf o ran y gweithio'n agos sydd yna rhwng prifysgolion ac ysgolion drwy'r consortia ac yn y blaen. Felly, mae yna rwydwaith eithaf cadarn yn datblygu yn hynny o beth, a dwi'n meddwl ei fod o'n allweddol bod hynny yn digwydd. Mae yna brojectau gwahanol yn mynd ymlaen ar hyn o bryd, a beth sydd yn amlwg i mi ydy bod yna lot o wybodaeth, lot o dystiolaeth am effeithiolrwydd rhai dulliau addysgu ac yn y blaen, sydd yn hybu sgiliau iaith yn benodol, gan mai dyna dŷn ni'n ei drafod heddiw, sydd efallai ddim yn rhywbeth mae athrawon yn ymwybodol ohonyn nhw, achos mai athrawon ydyn nhw, nid ymchwilwyr. Felly, dydyn nhw ddim wedi dod ar draws y wybodaeth yna. Mae'n allweddol, dwi'n meddwl, fod y cydweithio yna yn digwydd, ac fel dwi'n dweud, dŷn ni wedi gwella ond mae yna le i fynd ymhellach eto efo hynny. Ac fel dwi'n dweud, ac fe wnaf ei ddweud o eto, dwi yn meddwl bod anghofio am ba mor allweddol ydy sicrhau bod y plant yn hyderus, bod yr agwedd gywir ganddyn nhw a'r cymhelliant ar gyfer ymwneud efo'r Gymraeg yn hollol allweddol os oes yna unrhyw beth o'r cynlluniau wedyn yn mynd i weithio.

I think it is fair to say that there has been great progress in the last few years in terms of the close working between universities and schools through the consortia et cetera. So, there is quite a robust network developing in that regard, and I think it is key that that happens. There are different projects ongoing, and what is clear to me is that there's a lot of information, a lot of evidence about the effectiveness of some teaching methods that encourage language skills, because that's what we're talking about today, that perhaps aren't something that teachers are aware of, because they are teachers, not researchers. They don't come across that information. So, it is key, I think, that that collaboration happens, and as I say, it has improved, but there is room to go further with that. And as I said, and I'll say it again, I do think that forgetting about how important ensuring that children are confident and that they have the attitude and the incentives regarding the Welsh language are completely key if anything from these WESPs are going to work.

10:00

Diolch am hwnna, Enlli. Gaf i jest—? Heledd, wyt ti'n hapus inni symud ymlaen? 

Thank you for that, Enlli. Heledd, are you content for me to move on?

Diolch. Mae rhai awdurdodau lleol wedi datgysylltu o'r consortia. Sut ydyn nhw, felly—? Pa ddadleuon byddwn ni'n gallu eu gweld o ran sut maen nhw'n ymgysylltu o ran eu data pan maen nhw wedi datgysylltu? Neu sut mae hwnna'n gallu gwella? Oes unrhyw un eisiau—? Ie, Clive.

Thank you. Some local authorities have disengaged from the consortia. So, what is the view in terms of how they could engage with regard to their data when they have disengaged from the process? Or how could that situation be improved? Does anybody want to come in on that? Clive.

O ran yr awdurdodau sydd wedi datgysylltu o'u consortia, maen nhw'n derbyn y data—mae hwnna'n ddigon hygyrch iddyn nhw beth bynnag. Fel rŷn ni wedi nodi yn ein hymateb ni, ac fel mae Arwyn wedi sôn, bach iawn o ddylanwad, efallai, mae'r consortia wedi'i gael yn y broses o gynorthwyo'r awdurdodau i roi'r cynlluniau yma at ei gilydd beth bynnag. Felly, dwi ddim yn credu, yn y cyd-destun hyn, ei fod e wedi bod yn anfanteisiol, o beth rŷn ni wedi'i weld beth bynnag.

In terms of those authorities that have disengaged with their consortia, they receive the data—that is quite accessible for them anyway. And as we've noted in our response, and as Arwyn has mentioned, the consortia haven't had much influence, perhaps, on the process of supporting authorities to draw up these plans anyway. So, I don't think, in this context, that it hasn't been beneficial, from what we've seen anyway.

Ocê. Diolch am hwnna, Clive. Oni bai fod rhywun eisiau dod i mewn, gwnaf symud ymlaen nawr at Buffy Williams. Buffy.

Okay. Thank you, Clive. Unless somebody else wants to come in, we'll go on to Buffy Williams. Buffy.

Diolch, Chair, and thank you, all, for joining us this morning. How is the apparent variation in the quality of ambition of the current draft WESPs a cause of concern, and how could this be improved in the future?

Pwy fyddai eisiau mynd yn gyntaf ar hyn? Os oes yna bethau dŷch chi eisiau eu hychwanegu i'r hyn sydd wedi cael ei ddweud yn barod—. Na, dŷch chi gyd yn—.

Who wants to go first on this? If there's anything that you want to add to what's been said already, you may. No, you're all—.

Wel, jest yn gyflym, mae'r diffyg uchelgais yn adlewyrchu'r awydd gwleidyddol hefyd o ran y cynghorau hynny. Er enghraifft i chi, mae nifer o'r awdurdodau rŷn ni'n teimlo sydd ddim wedi dangos yr uchelgais yna efallai yn ddigon bodlon i lenwi'r llefydd gweigion sydd gyda nhw yn eu hysgolion Cymraeg ar hyn o bryd, heb efallai ystyried pam mae yna lefydd gweigion yn yr ysgolion, ac efallai heb edrych yn ehangach yn eu hawdurdodau am safleoedd sydd yn fwy hygyrch i fwy o ddisgyblion, ac i ystyried rhesymau eraill pam mae'r llefydd gweigion yna yn bod. So, dyna un o'r rhesymau, dwi'n credu, un o'r ffactorau, rŷn ni'n teimlo efallai sydd yn—. Mae'n hawdd iawn jest edrych ar beth sydd ar gael a llenwi'r llefydd gweigion yna, yn hytrach nag edrych yn ehangach ac edrych i weld beth yw'r potensial, beth yw'r cyfleoedd, a dyna dwi'n credu efallai lle mae nifer o awdurdodau ddim wedi cymryd mantais o'r cyfle yma i'r graddau y gallen nhw.

Well, just briefly, the lack of ambition reflects the political desire in terms of those councils too. For example, a number of the authorities that we feel haven't shown that ambition are happy to fill the gaps in their Welsh-medium schools at the moment, without perhaps considering why those gaps are emerging in those schools in the first place, and perhaps haven't looked more widely in their authorities for sites that are more accessible to more pupils, and to consider the other reasons why these vacancies exist. So, that's one of the reasons I think, one of the factors, that we feel—. It's very easy to look at what is available and to fill those vacancies, rather than look more widely to see what the potential is, what the opportunities are, and that's where I think a number of authorities haven't taken advantage of these opportunities to the extent that they could have.

Dwi'n meddwl, ym mhapur Estyn hefyd, mae Clive wedi cyfeirio yn fanno—mae'r cylch gwleidyddol yn un pum mlynedd, onid ydy? Ac mae nifer o'r awdurdodau, yn naturiol, maen nhw wedi cael eu rhoi at ei gilydd, mae'r ddemocratiaeth leol yn cael ei chreu o fewn clymbleidiau, ac o fewn y clymbleidiau yna, mae yna ffactorau wedyn sydd yn tynnu nhw at ei gilydd, ac mae'n siŵr bod yna linellau eithaf clir nad ydyn nhw am eu croesi hefyd yn ogystal.

Dŷn ni'n gwybod, dros gyfnod o amser, mae'n debyg mai'r maes mwyaf cynhennus sydd yna ym myd addysg ydy agor a chau ysgolion a newid cyfrwng hefyd yn ogystal. Dŷn ni'n gwybod am sawl cyngor sydd wedi dioddef—mae'n dibynnu pa eirfa dŷch chi eisiau ei rhoi—ond wrth osod yn glir y newidiadau; mae yna hefyd, onid oes, nifer o awdurdodau wedi dioddef yn wleidyddol, os dyna ydy'r term priodol yn fan hyn.

Felly, mae yna elfen wleidyddol reit pragmatig sydd angen ei rhoi ochr yn ochr â'r cynllunio strategol yma hefyd. Ac mae 10 mlynedd, onid ydy, yn ddau gyngor, a rydyn ni'n gwybod bod cynghorau yn gallu newid eu harweinyddiaeth o un cyfnod i'r llall, ac felly mae hynny hefyd yn ffactor. Mae'n rhaid i—. Sut ydych chi'n ei dal hi ac yn ei mesur hi? Oherwydd mai ewyllys y bobl sydd yn penderfynu, ond mae hi, yn naturiol, yn ffenomenon gref pan ydych chi'n edrych ar ddeisyfiadau cynghorau gwahanol.

I think that, in Estyn's paper as well, Clive has referred to the political cycle being a five-year one. And a number of the authorities, naturally, have been brought together, the local democracy is created within coalitions and, within that, there are factors that bring them together, and sometimes there are clear lines that they don't want to cross in that context.

We know, over a period of time, that, apparently, the most controversial field in education is closing schools and changing the medium. We know of a number of authorities that have suffered—it depends on the vocabulary we want to use—in introducing the changes; a number of authorities have also suffered politically, if that's the right term to use here.

So, there is quite a pragmatic political element here that needs to be put alongside the strategic planning. And 10 years is a period of two councils, and we know that councils can change their leadership from one period to another, and so that is also a factor. You need to look at how you capture it. Because it's the will of the people that decides, but it is, naturally, a strong phenomenon when you look at the ambitions of different authorities.

10:05

Diolch am hwnna, Arwyn. A oedd unrhyw un arall eisiau dweud unrhyw beth ar hwnna, neu wnawn ni fynd nôl at Buffy? Dwi ddim yn gweld, felly gwawn ni fynd nôl at Buffy.

Thank you, Arwyn. Did anyone else want to make a comment, or we'll go back to Buffy? No; we'll go back to Buffy, then.

Thank you. What are the barriers to effective data analysis by local authorities as part of the WESPs' development, and how will Welsh Government and partner bodies support these authorities in the future?

Thanks, Buffy. Enlli, is there anything that you'd like to say on this? I know that your perspective on this is going to be slightly different, but—.

Sori, dwi ddim yn meddwl bod gen i unrhyw wybodaeth ynghylch sut mae'r data yma yn cael eu dadansoddi na dim byd felly.

Sorry, I don't think I have any information about how these data are analysed.

Ocê. Oedd unrhyw un eisiau dod mewn ar hyn?

Okay. Did anyone else want to come in on this?

Wel, dwi'n credu ei fod e'n ymwneud hefyd â sut rŷch chi'n mesur llwyddiant y cynlluniau yma; o ran y niferoedd sy'n mynd i ysgolion cyfrwng Gymraeg, mae'n hawdd adnabod y niferoedd sydd gyda chi a'r cynnydd, os ydy hwnna'n digwydd. A dwi'n credu ei fod e'n mynd nôl i un o'r pwyntiau gwnaeth Arwyn ar y dechrau: os ydy disgyblion gyda ni wedyn sydd yn mynychu ysgolion Saesneg eu cyfrwng, mae'n anodd mesur y cynnydd maen nhw yn ei wneud, oherwydd bod yna wahanol—. Mae'n anodd dod i farn gadarn ynglŷn ag a ydyn nhw'n siaradwyr Cymraeg neu beidio—y diffiniad roedd Arwyn yn sôn amdano ar y cychwyn, dwi'n credu. A dyna lle mae angen inni efallai edrych ar y continwwm ieithyddol, fel bod un ffordd gyda ni o fesur ac ystyried beth yw medrau ein disgyblion ni, medrau ein pobl ifanc ni, o ran y Gymraeg, yn lle bod yna ddwy haenen a nifer o ffyrdd o edrych ar hwn sydd ddim wastad yn gydlynus. A dyna un o ddyheadau'r cwricwlwm newydd, wrth gwrs, ond dwi ddim yn credu ei bod hi yna eto o ran hynny.

Well, I think it is also related to how you measure the success of these schemes; in terms of the number who attend Welsh-medium schools, it's easy to identify the numbers that you have and the progress made, if that happens. And I think it goes back to one of the points that Arwyn made at the beginning: if pupils then attend majority English-medium schools, it's difficult to measure the progress that they make, because there are different—. It is difficult to come to a robust view as to whether they are Welsh speakers or not—Arwyn spoke about the definition of a Welsh speaker at the beginning. And that's where we need to perhaps look at the language continuum, so that we have one way of measuring and considering what pupils' proficiency is in terms of the Welsh language, rather than having two tiers and a number of different ways of looking at this that aren't always aligned. And that's one of the ambitions of the new curriculum, of course, but I don't think we are there yet in that regard.

Buaswn i jest yn ychwanegu, Buffy, at beth mae Clive wedi'i ddweud, ei bod hi'n anodd i bobl sy'n dadansoddi data os nad ydyn nhw'n glir ar y diffiniad o beth maen nhw'n trio'i fesur. Felly, nôl i'r pwynt cychwynnol roeddwn i'n ei wneud—a dwi'n meddwl bod hwnnw, efallai, ydy'r diffyg eglurder o ran beth ydy siaradwr, ac mae hynny wedyn yn effeithio ar y dadansoddi. Mae Clive yn sôn am y cwricwlwm; dwi wedi bod yn sôn am y fframwaith gwella ysgolion newydd ac yn y blaen. Mae'n rhaid i'r dogfennau yma siarad â'i gilydd i gasglu y math o wybodaeth rydych chi'n sôn amdani i greu'r darlun o lwyddiant ai peidio i'r cynlluniau strategol.

Felly, rydyn ni'n gorfod gweithio ar lefel wirioneddol meicro yn fan hyn i gael y darlun mawr, sef beth yn union ydy llwyddiannau disgyblion ar y llwybr iaith ym mhob ysgol, sut ydyn ni'n dal, mesur ac yn gwerthuso hynny, a sut ydyn ni'n cymharu hwnna wedyn yn gyson ar draws ysgolion, ar draws awdurdodau a rhanbarthau, fel bod gennym ni'r darlun cenedlaethol wedyn. Ac mi fyddwn i'n cytuno, mae'n debyg, fod gennym ni—. Hynny yw, o bosib, mae angen inni esblygu'r gwaith o'r diffiniad ieithyddol yna. Rydyn ni wedi bod yma dro ar ôl tro ar ôl tro, ond dydyn ni ddim wedi gafael ynddo fo ar lefel genedlaethol i gael y diffiniad yna. Mae yna wastad trafodaethau, mae yna wastad cytundeb ac anghytundeb drosto fo, ond, o gael un continwwm ac un diffiniad, mae pawb wedyn yn yr un cwch, yn gweithio tuag at y miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg. Po fwyaf y llwybrau rydyn ni'n eu hollti, rydyn ni wedyn yn ei wneud o'n anodd i ddod â fo at ei gilydd i wneud cyfanwaith. Efallai ein bod ni'n gostwng y bar i rai ac yn codi'r bar i eraill. Mae cael un diffiniad, dwi'n meddwl, yn mynd i fod yn allweddol inni fedru yn wirioneddol ateb y cwestiwn a oes gennym ni filiwn o siaradwyr ai peidio.

I would just add, Buffy, to what Clive has said, that it's difficult for people who analyse data if it's not clear what they're trying to measure. So, back to the initial point I was making—and I think that, perhaps, is that lack of clarity in terms of what a speaker is, and that then has an impact on the analysis. Clive mentioned there the curriculum; I have been talking about the new school improvement framework and so on. These documents need to speak to each other to collect the sort of information that you're talking about to create the picture of success or not regarding the WESPs.

So, we have to work at a truly micro level here to ensure that we have the big picture, namely what exactly are the successes of children on the language pathway in every school, how do we capture, measure and evaluate that, and how do we compare that consistently then across schools, across authorities and regions, so that we then have the national picture. And I would agree that we—. That is, perhaps we need to evolve this work of that language definition. We've been here time after time, but we haven't grasped it at a national level to get that definition. There are always discussions, there is always disagreement and agreement on it, but, if we have a definition, then everybody's in the same boat, working towards a million Welsh speakers. The more we split the pathways, the more difficult it is to bring them together in one piece of work. So, perhaps we lower the bar for some and raise the bar for others. Having one definition, I think, is key for us to be able to really answer the question as to whether we have a million Welsh speakers or not.

10:10

Diolch am hynny, Arwyn. Mae'n flin gen i, achos amser, Buffy, ydych chi'n hapus os ydym ni'n symud ymlaen? Grêt. Ocê, diolch yn fawr iawn. Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Sioned Williams.

Thank you for that, Arwyn. I'm sorry, because of time, Buffy, are you happy for us to move on? Great. Okay, thank you very much. We'll move on to Sioned Williams.

Diolch yn fawr a bore da. Mae gen i gwpwl o gwestiynau dŷn ni wedi cyffwrdd arnyn nhw drwy'r bore, a dweud y gwir, ynglŷn â monitro ac atebolrwydd, a thema gyson roeddwn i'n ei weld yn y dystiolaeth roeddech chi wedi ei chyfrannu inni oedd y ffaith bod yna gwestiynau—ac rŷn ni wedi'i glywed eto'r bore yma—ynglŷn ag effeithiolrwydd y trefniadau monitro ac atebolrwydd. Rŷch chi wedi sôn ychydig bach am sut mae angen i hynny weithio ar lefel meicro, o ran y fframwaith gwella ysgol ac yn y blaen, ac efallai sut mae angen i hynny fod â dannedd wedyn ar lefel genedlaethol. Felly, mae'n amlwg i fi, o beth rŷn ni wedi'i glywed y bore yma, nad yw'r trefniadau monitro ac atebolrwydd yn ddigon cadarn i gyrraedd yr uchelgais, sydd ddim wastad yn ddigonol o fewn y cynlluniau eu hunain, ond yn sicr ddim o ran uchelgais strategaeth 'Cymraeg 2050', felly pwy yn eich tyb chi ddylai fod yn gyfrifol am ddwyn awdurdodau lleol i gyfrif yn hyn o beth am fethiannau i gyrraedd targedau, am fethu â bod â digon o uchelgais, am fethu â chydblethu eu cynlluniau gyda strategaethau eraill neu bethau fydd yn dod ar eu traws nhw? Sut gallwn ni wneud hwn yn fwy effeithiol?

Thank you very much, and good morning. I have a couple of questions that we've been touching upon all morning, actually, regarding monitoring and accountability, and a consistent theme in the evidence that you've provided us with was the fact that there were questions—and we've heard it again this morning—regarding the effectiveness of the monitoring and accountability arrangements. You've spoken a little bit about how that should work on a micro level in terms of the school improvement framework, and perhaps how that needs to have teeth then on a national level. So, it's clear to me, from what I've heard this morning, that the monitoring and accountability arrangements aren't robust enough to reach the ambition, which perhaps isn't always sufficient within the plans themselves, but certainly not in terms of the 'Cymraeg 2050' ambitions, so who, in your view, should be responsible for holding local authorities to account in this regard with regard to failing to reach targets, failing to have sufficient ambition, and failing to weave their plans with other strategies or other things that will come their way? How can we do this more effectively?

Pwy sydd eisiau mynd yn gyntaf? Clive.

Who wants to go first? Clive.

Mae rôl gan y Llywodraeth, wrth gwrs, i ddod i farn ynglŷn ag a ydyn nhw'n derbyn y cynlluniau fel maen nhw'n cael eu cyflwyno. Dwi'n gwybod bod y drafftiau cyntaf wedi cael eu cyflwyno i'r Llywodraeth a bod yna ailedrych ar nifer ohonyn nhw cyn bod y fersiynau terfynol yn cael eu cymeradwyo, felly mae rôl gan y Llywodraeth, wrth gwrs, o ran hynny. Unwaith mae'r cynlluniau yn weithredol, fel dwi'n ei deall hi, fe fydd pob awdurdod yn adrodd yn flynyddol ar y cynnydd maen nhw yn ei wneud o ran y camau gweithredu yn y cynlluniau, a'r cwestiwn yw pwy sydd yn mynd i fonitro bod y rheini'n cael eu gweithredu a'u cyflawni.

Dwi'n credu efallai fod rôl gyda ni fel yr arolygaeth. Mae yna arolygwyr cyswllt gyda ni ym mhob un o'r awdurdodau yma, ac efallai fydd modd edrych ar y cynlluniau yma, ar yr adroddiadau blynyddol yma, i weld beth yw'r cynnydd a chynnal y trafodaethau yma gyda'r awdurdodau. Bydd hynny'n golygu byddai angen mwy o adnoddau arnom ni, oherwydd does ddim yr adnoddau gyda ni i wneud e ar hyn o bryd, ond mae yna botensial y medren ni ei wneud e a byddai hwnna'n rhan o'n rôl ni efallai yn y llythyr remit yn flynyddol, o bosib. A bydden ni'n gallu cyflwyno hwnna i'r cyhoedd hefyd mewn adroddiad byr. Felly, mae yna botensial y medren ni gyfrannu at y gwaith hwn.

The Government has a role, of course, to form a view on whether they accept the plans as they are presented. I know that the first drafts have been presented to the Government and that a number of them are being looked at again before the finalised versions are approved, so the Government does have a role, of course, in that regard. Once the plans are operational, as I understand it, every authority will report on an annual basis on the progress that they are making in terms of the actions outlined in the plans, and the question is then who is going to monitor whether they are being achieved.

I think we have a role as the inspectorate. We have associate inspectors in all of these authorities, and there may be a way to look at these plans and these annual reports to see what the progress is and to have those discussions and conversations with authorities. That would mean that we would need more resources, because we don't have the resource to do that at present, but there is potential that we could do that work and that would be part of our role, perhaps, in the annual remit letter, potentially. We could present that to the public in a short report. So, there is potential for us to contribute to this work.

Mae hynny yn sicr, efallai, yn mynd i ateb o ran monitro—beth o ran sancsiynau? Dŷn ni'n gwybod—dŷn ni i gyd yn gwybod; dŷn ni wedi clywed ers 20 mlynedd—dyw'r cynlluniau strategol yma ddim yn ddigonol, a dydyn nhw ddim yn cyrraedd y nod yn lleol nac yn genedlaethol o ran plethu. Felly, beth allwn ni ei wneud amdano fe? Beth yw'r sancsiynau y gallem ni eu cymryd i wneud yn siŵr eu bod nhw'n cyrraedd y nod?

That certainly is going to provide a solution in terms of monitoring—what about sanctions? We know—we all know; we've heard for the last 20 years—that the strategic plans aren't sufficient, that they're not achieving the aim at either national or local level. So, what can we do about it? What are the sanctions that we could introduce to ensure that they do reach that ambition?

Mae cyfalaf ysgolion yr unfed ganrif ar ddeg yn cael ei gynllunio, yn cael ei ddosbarthu, gan y Llywodraeth. Byddai clymu hwnnw gyda'r cynlluniau, fel y dywedais i ynghynt, yn abwyd i'r awdurdodau i wneud yn siŵr bod yna gydlyniad fanna a bod unrhyw ysgol sydd yn agor yn rhan o'r cynllun strategol y Gymraeg mewn addysg yn ei lawnder cyn ei bod hi'n cael ei derbyn. Mae hwnna'n un ffordd o wthio'r maen i'r wal, ond dim ond rhan fach, efallai, fyddai hynny.

Capital funding for twenty-first century schools is planned and distributed by the Government, so tying that in with the plans, as I said earlier, would be an incentive for the authorities to ensure that there is alignment there and that any school that opens is part of the WESPs in their fullest sense before they are approved. That is one way of encouraging them, but that might be only a small element of it.

10:15

Mae'r cwestiwn, Sioned, fath â cwestiwn twrci Nadolig i rywun fath â fi, onid ydy? Ond, yn fan hyn, yn sicr, mae yna rôl glir iawn i Estyn yn fan hyn, yn bersonol, i weithio ochr yn ochr â swyddogion y Llywodraeth, nid yn unig fel ein bod ni'n hyderus o dderbyn y cynlluniau yma, ond hefyd eu bod nhw'n weithredol. Rydych chi'n gallu gweithio i mewn i fframweithiau wedyn, i lawr i fframweithiau arolygu ysgolion, arolygu awdurdodau lleol, ninnau fel rhanbarthau, a sefydliadau addysgol eraill. Felly, mae'r atebolrwydd wedyn yn gweithio trwy'r gyfundrefn addysg ar bob lefel ac yn cael ei ddal, fel roedd Clive yn sôn yn fanna, yn y llythyr cylch gorchwyl mae Estyn yn ei gael yn flynyddol, neu yn yr adroddiadau blynyddol neu adroddiadau yn fan hyn hefyd.

Mae yna elfen arall y byddwn i'n ei awgrymu hefyd, sef bod angen ailedrych ar y grantiau sy'n cael eu derbyn gennym ni a chan yr awdurdodau lleol. Maen nhw'n grantiau sydd yn hanesyddol iawn eu naws a'u natur a'u cyfeiriad, ac mae angen, mae'n debyg—. Yn y trafodaethau rydyn ni wedi eu cael fel rhanbarthau a phartneriaethau, mae angen dod â rheini at ei gilydd i'w ailffocysu, ailgyfeirio. A'r cwestiwn atebolrwydd felly rydych chi'n ei ofyn wedyn ydy, 'Lle sy'n cael y mwyaf o effaith wedyn yn y gyfundrefn?', ac mae'n rhaid i ni dderbyn wedyn ein bod ni'n cael ein dal yn atebol wedyn am y defnydd mwyaf effeithiol o'r cyllid grant yna er mwyn gwireddu'r nod rydyn ni'n siarad amdano fo'r bore yma.

The question, Sioned, is a bit of a Christmas turkey question for someone like me, isn't it? But there is a clear role for Estyn here, personally, to work alongside Government officials, not only so that we're confident of receiving these plans, but also that they're operational. You can work within frameworks then, down to school frameworks, school inspection frameworks, inspecting local authorities, us as regions, and other educational institutions. So, the accountability then works through the education system at each level and it is captured, as Clive said there, in the remit letter that Estyn receives on an annual basis, or in the annual reports or reports here too.

There is another element that I would suggest as well, and that is the need to revisit the grants that we receive and that local authorities receive. They are historic grants in terms of their nature and direction, and there's a need—. In the discussions that we've had as regions, we need to bring those together to refocus, to redirect. And the accountability question that you ask then is, 'What has the most impact in the system?', and we have to accept then that we're held to account regarding the most effective way of using that grant funding in order to realise this aim that we're talking about this morning. 

Diolch. Eto, o ran—. Roedd diddordeb gyda fi pan oeddech chi'n sôn am ddeddfwriaeth a sail mewn cyfraith i hyn, achos, yn amlwg, dwi wedi clywed achosion o le mae yna, yn amlwg, wrthdaro rhwng cynllun strategol y Gymraeg a chynlluniau eraill. Dŷch chi wedi crybwyll rhai ohonyn nhw'r bore yma, lle mae cynlluniau, er enghraifft, i agor ysgolion eraill o dan y cynllun unfed ganrif ar hugain yn digwydd, a'u bod nhw'n amlwg yn mynd yn groes i uchelgais neu i nod y cynlluniau addysg Gymraeg strategol. Ond, os nad oes gennym ni ddeddfwriaeth, pwy sy'n mynd i ddal y Gweinidog i gyfrif, ontefe? Fyddech chi'n cytuno â hynny, dyna pam mae angen inni gael—oherwydd y rhesymau gwleidyddol yma dŷn ni wedi crybwyll y bore yma, mae angen inni gael deddfwriaeth yn sail waelodol i hyn?

Thank you. Again, in terms of—. I was interested when you were talking about legislation and a legal basis for this, because, clearly, I've heard of cases where there is clear conflict between a WESP and other plans. You've mentioned some of them this morning, where plans, for example, to open other schools under the twenty-first century schools scheme contradict the ambitions or aims of the WESPs. But, if we don't have legislation, who is going to hold the Minister to account? Do you agree with that—that, because of these political issues that we've mentioned this morning, we need to have legislation as the baseline for this? 

Clive ac Arwyn yn nodio pen, rôn i'n sylwi.

Clive and Arwyn are nodding their heads.

Wel, dwi'n meddwl bod y pwynt yn un digon dilys, onid ydy, sef bod y Gymraeg yn gyfrifoldeb i bawb. Y perig ydy ein bod ni'n glastwreiddio'r cyfrifoldeb yna ac yn meddwl bod pawb arall yn ei wneud o. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod angen diffinio fesul sefydliad beth yn union ydy eu cyfrifoldebau nhw a'u cyfraniadau nhw tuag at—. Mae gyda chi tier 1 y Llywodraeth, onid oes, yn diffinio yn union beth ydy'r rôl yn fanna. Wedyn, y tier canol yna, wedyn, mae gennych chi'r awdurdodau, y prifysgolion, colegau addysg bellach, rhanbarthau, Hayden a ninnau ac yn y blaen. Wel, beth yn union ydy rôl pawb yn fanna? Ydy pawb yn cyflawni eu dyletswyddau'n llawn yn fanna er mwyn galluogi wedyn yr ymgysylltu yna ag ysgolion i fedru gwneud yn siŵr bod yna gynnydd yn y ddarpariaeth, cynnydd yn y niferoedd, a chynnydd yn y niferoedd? Mae rôl Estyn i mi yn eithaf clir wedyn, fod pwerau Estyn yn cael eu grymuso i ddal yr atebolrwydd yna ar draws yr haenau gwahanol yn y gyfundrefn. Felly, mae yna le i gryfhau remit Estyn yn edrych ar y gyfundrefn, ond mae yna le hefyd, onid oes, i gryfhau ein bod ni'n hollol glir beth yn union ydy rôl y naill a'r llall yn y daith yma hefyd.

Well, I think the point is valid, isn't it, that the Welsh language is everybody's responsibility. The danger is that we think that somebody else is taking the responsibility. So, I think we need to define, for each institution, what exactly their responsibilities are and their contributions. You have the Government, tier 1, defining the role there. Then, the middle tier, then, you have authorities, universities, further education colleges, regions, Hayden and ourselves and so forth. What exactly is everybody's role there? Are they all fulfilling their duties to enable then that engagement with schools in order to ensure that there is an increase in provision and an increase in numbers? Estyn's role, for me, then, is quite clear in that Estyn's powers then are strengthened to hold those different tiers in the system to account. So, there's room to strengthen Estyn's remit in looking at the system, but also there is room to strengthen so that we are clear what the different roles are of everyone along this journey.

Ffantastig. Grêt. Diolch am hwnna. Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Carolyn Thomas.

Fantastic. Great. Thank you for that. We'll move on to Carolyn Thomas.

Good morning. I'm just going to ask you some questions about school categorisation. So, regarding the significance of the new school categorisation guidance, do you believe there are sufficiently robust arrangements in place to ensure local authorities and schools are supported and encouraged to move along the language continuum? And, as witnesses, what role would you anticipate having in school recategorisation processes? And do you believe that the monitoring and accountability framework is sufficient as the new system is established?

10:20

Diolch, Carolyn. Plenty to get through there. Who would like to go first on that?

Dwi'n hapus i ddechrau ar y fframwaith newydd. Dwi'n siŵr bod y proffesiwn yn falch o weld diwedd categoreiddio yn y lle cyntaf, ond law yn llaw â hynny wedyn mae'r angen i ysgolion, awdurdodau a rhanbarthau wedyn fod â'r atebolrwydd ac i fod yn dryloyw. Mae yna ddwy flynedd, onid oes, o'r canllaw fel ag y mae o ar hyn o bryd, a dwi'n meddwl, wrth inni fireinio y canllaw wrth i ni fynd yn ein blaenau, medrwn ni roi y cwestiynau rydych chi'n eu codi fel Aelodau y bore yma am yr atebolrwydd, am yr angen i adrodd, fel ein bod ni'n gallu plethu hynny i mewn i'r fframwaith gwella ysgolion newydd fel ei bod hi'n ofynnol wedyn ar i bob corff llywodraethol a phob ysgol adrodd yn flynyddol ar ble maen nhw ar y daith tuag at y filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg. Felly, mae o'n dod yn rhan wedyn o fusnes pob ysgol.

Mae o'n dod yn rhan o'n gwaith ni wedyn i gefnogi'r ysgolion hynny ar y daith honno, ac wedyn i arfarnu yn effeithiol ac yn dryloyw fel bod y rhieni'n gwybod beth sy'n digwydd a bod y llywodraethwyr yn glir o beth sy'n digwydd. Rydych chi'n adio hynny i gyd i fyny wedyn ac rydych chi'n cael darlun ar lefel awdurdod a rhanbarthol. Felly, mae yna botensial yn y fframwaith gwella ysgolion newydd i wireddu rhai o'r heriau rydych chi'n eu rhoi y bore yma, sef i gryfhau'r atebolrwydd ac i gryfhau pa mor dryloyw ydy pob ysgol ar y daith honno.

I'm happy to start on the new framework. I'm sure that the profession is very pleased to see the end of categorisation in the first instance, but hand in hand with that there's the need for schools, authorities and regions to have that accountability and to be transparent. There are two years of the guidance, as it currently stands, still to go, and I think, as we refine the guidance in going forward, we can include the questions that you are asking this morning as Members, in terms of the need to report and to be accountable, so that we can dovetail that with the new strategy so that every governing body and every school report annually on where they are on that journey towards a million Welsh speakers. So, then it becomes a part of the business of every school.

It then becomes part of our work to support those schools on that journey, and then to assess effectively and transparently so that the parents know what's going on and governors know what's going on. Then you report that back and you have a regional and authority picture too. So, there is potential in the new school improvement framework to respond to some of the challenges that you've mentioned this morning, namely to strengthen accountability and to strengthen the transparency of every school on that journey.

Dwi'n credu, o ran ein rôl ni, byddai'n rôl y byddai'n cydblethu gyda'r gyfundrefn yna, a dyna sy'n cael ei grybwyll yn fframwaith gwella ysgolion newydd, a byddem ni'n sicr yn gallu rhoi sylw i gategori ieithyddol ysgol yn ein hadroddiadau ni. Os ydy'r ysgolion yna yn y broses drosiannol, mi fyddem ni'n sicr o edrych ar hynny mewn ffordd gymesur a sensitif oherwydd byddai fe'n gyfnod o newid yn yr ysgolion hynny tuag at gategori iaith arall. Felly, ein rôl ni, dwi'n credu, yw edrych ar gyd-destun ieithyddol yr ysgol ac adlewyrchu hynny yn ein hadroddiadau ni fel rhan o'r gyfundrefn atebolrwydd a chydweithio gydag ysgolion, awdurdodau a'r rhanbarthau yn hynny o beth, dwi'n credu.  

I think, in terms of our role, it would be a role that would weave into that system. I think that is what is mentioned in the new school improvement framework, and, certainly, we'd be able to give attention to a school's language category in our reports. If those schools are in the transformational process, we would certainly look at that in a proportionate and sensitive way because it would be a period of change in those schools as they work towards a different language category. So, that is our role, I think, in looking at the linguistic context of that school and reflecting that in our reports as part of the accountability and collaboration system of working with schools, authorities and the regions in that regard.

Diolch. Enlli neu Haydn, oedd unrhyw beth oeddech chi eisiau ei ychwanegu?

Thank you. Enlli or Haydn, was there anything that you wanted want to add there?

Jest i ddweud bod o'n amlwg bod y ffordd rydym ni'n symud yma yng Nghymru efo'r categoreiddio newydd yn debycach i beth sy'n digwydd mewn gwledydd Ewropeaidd eraill. Felly, rydym ni wedi symud i ffwrdd o'r model o ddisgrifio beth sy'n digwydd ar lawr gwlad at fodel lle mae yna ddisgwyl ar yr ysgolion i wneud rhywbeth penodol, ac felly buaswn i'n meddwl bod yr atebolrwydd a'r monitro yn mynd i fod yn haws.

Just to say that it's clear that the way that we are moving forward here in Wales with the new categorisation is similar to what's happening in other European countries. So, we've moved away from that model of describing what happens on the ground to a model where there is an expectation on schools to do something specific, so I would think that the accountability and monitoring is going to be easier, if anything.

Grêt, diolch. Diolch, Enlli. Carolyn, ydych chi'n hapus i ni symud ymlaen?

Great, thank you, Enlli. Carolyn, are you happy for us to move on?

—which is on categorisation? For example, in north Wales, in north-west Wales, because you're immersed in the Welsh language and it's all around you, it's so much easier to learn outside of school and to pick it up and have confidence to speak it, whereas, in north-east Wales, they're building more facilities for young children to learn through the Welsh language now, using that twenty-first century school funding, and I see children coming through primary schools speaking the Welsh language, but just encouraging them to go into high school and to continue with that Welsh-medium language education is really difficult. It's a confidence thing, I believe, when they get to high school, and it's not around them as well, so it's really, really hard. So, what do you think we can do regarding that? That's something that I always ask. I spent two years in Italy and I, eventually, learnt Italian because it was just around me, but it's really hard, isn’t it, to learn from textbooks?

10:25

You need the immersion. I think that’s going to be an issue, getting over that confidence issue, and carrying it on into adult life.

Absolutely. Thank you for that, Carolyn. Enlli, you had your hand up—you wanted to come in.

Yn y cyd-destun yna, wrth gwrs, mae yna wahanol fodelau sydd yn gallu cael eu hymgorffori o fewn y categorïau iaith yma. Felly, mae’r model CLIL yn rhywbeth dydyn ni ddim wedi bod yn archwilio yn ormodol yng nghyd-destun Cymru, ond mae cyfle i rai plant fedru parhau i gael rhai pynciau trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae’r model trawsieithu yn rhywbeth rydyn ni wedi cychwyn yma yng Nghymru, ond dydyn ni ddim wedi ymgorffori trawsieithu'n glir iawn yn ein systemau addysg. Beth mae trawsieithu’n caniatáu i rywun wneud ydy addysgu plentyn trwy'r iaith sydd gryfaf iddyn nhw, ond hefyd roi profiad o iaith arall i gyfoethogi, ac yn y blaen. Felly, mae yna bethau y medrwn ni wneud yn y sector addysg cyfrwng Saesneg er mwyn sicrhau bod y plant yn cael mwy o barhad ieithyddol.

In that context, of course, there are different models that can be incorporated into these language categories. The content and language integrated learning model is something that we haven't examined a great deal in Wales, but there is an opportunity for some children to be able to continue to have some subjects through the medium of Welsh. There is another model that we've started here in Wales, a translingual model, but we haven't incorporated this effectively in our education systems. What this allows is the teaching of a child through the medium of their strongest language, while also giving them the experience of another language in order to enrich their experience. So, there is something else that we can do in the English-medium education sector to ensure that children have more of a language continuum.

Diolch am hynna, Enlli. Oes unrhyw un arall eisiau dod i mewn ar hynna, hefyd? O ran dilyniant fel rhan o'r WESPs, ydy hynny'n ddigon cadarn? Clive.

Thanks for that, Enlli. Is there anything else to add to that? In terms of continuity as part of the WESPs, is that a robust feature? Clive.

At ei gilydd, mae dilyniant o ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg i ysgolion uwchradd Cymraeg yn y dwyrain, fel petai, yn gadarn iawn. Felly, dwi ddim yn credu mai dilyniant yw’r issue, i fod yn onest gyda chi. Mae canran uchel o blant yn dueddol o drosglwyddo o'r cynradd i'r uwchradd cyfrwng Cymraeg yn yr ardaloedd hynny.

On the whole, continuity from Welsh-medium education to Welsh secondary schools in the east is robust. So, I don’t think that continuity is the issue, to be honest with you. A high percentage of children do tend to transfer from Welsh-medium primary to Welsh-medium secondary in those areas.

Diolch am hynna. Oni bai bod rhywun arall eisiau dod i mewn—

Thanks for that. Unless someone else wants to come in—

Thank you very much for that question, Carolyn. That was really helpful. Thank you.

—fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen yn olaf at Hefin David. Dwi’n gwybod bod rhai pwyntiau am y gweithlu wedi cael eu gwneud yn barod, ac felly byddwn ni nawr yn edrych ar hyn mewn mwy o ddyfnder. Hefin.

—we will move on finally to Hefin David. Now, I know that some points regarding the workforce have been made already, but we’ll look at this now in more detail. Hefin.

Yes, I really wanted to ask, I suppose—it has been touched on throughout the meeting—is there anything additional you'd like to say about equipping the workforce to deliver by 2050? Are there any additional challenges that haven’t been mentioned already that you'd like to add for our inquiry?

Cyn i unrhyw un ddod mewn, dwi'n gwybod, Arwyn, eich bod chi angen gadael ymhen dwy funud. Enlli, ydych chi'n meindio os ydyn ni'n jest mynd at Arwyn yn gyntaf? Ydy hynny'n ocê?

Before anyone comes in, I know that Arwyn has to leave in two minutes. Enlli, do you mind if we go to Arwyn first? Is that okay? Arwyn.

Arwyn, you can have your final few moments.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Dwi’n meddwl, o ran cynllunio tymor hir, rydyn ni angen y bobl yma yn yr ysgolion fory nesaf, ac rydyn ni’n sôn am gynllunio tymor canol a thymor hir yn fan hyn. I ategu'r pwyntiau roeddem ni'n gwneud yn gynharach, mae'n hawdd i ni feddwl bod yna ddigon o athrawon yn y sector cyfrwng Cymraeg, ond mae'r sector cyfrwng Cymraeg hefyd dan bwysau, yn enwedig yn yr uwchradd. Felly, mae gwirioneddol angen marchnata, mae gwirioneddol angen edrych ar wneud y sector yn fwy deniadol, mae’n bosibl y bydd yn rhaid i ni edrych ar fwrsariaeth ariannol i ddenu myfyrwyr i mewn i'r agweddau yma. Mae'n bosibl mai'r lle gwaethaf y gallem ni gyrraedd ydy ein bod ni'n cryfhau'r atebolrwydd o gwmpas y cynlluniau, o gwmpas yr ysgolion, yr awdurdodau, a ninnau, ac yn y blaen, ond nad oes gennym ni'r gweithlu i fedru'n wirioneddol rhoi'r gwaith yma ar waith. Medrwn ni ddadlau am ddeddfwriaeth, medrwn ni ddadlau am ddiffiniadau, ond os nad ydy'r bobl gennym ni i'w wneud—. Hwnnw, mae'n debyg, ydy’r prif ffactor yn y maes yma, sydd angen i ni wirioneddol fuddsoddi ynddo fo wrth i ni fynd yn ein blaenau.

Thanks, Chair. As regards long-term plans, we need these people in schools tomorrow, and we’re talking about medium and long-term planning here. To endorse the points that we were making earlier, it's easy for us to think that there are sufficient numbers of teachers in the Welsh-medium sector, but the Welsh-medium sector is under pressure as well, particularly in the secondary sector. So, there is a real need to promote and market, to look at making the sector more attractive. It's possible that we have to look at financial bursaries to attract students into these areas. It's possible that the worst place we could get to is that we strengthen the accountability around the plans, around the schools, the authorities and ourselves, and so forth, but that we don't have the workforce to truly be able to get this work done. We can argue about legislation, we can argue about definitions, but if we don't have the people to do this—. That's the main factor in this area that we really need to invest in as we go forward.

Delyth, can I just ask Enlli directly about the pipeline of academics able to deliver Welsh-medium education, and whether that is sufficient, because there's going to be a blockage there, isn't there?

Ie, dwi’n mynd i wneud rhywbeth tipyn bach yn ddadleuol, efallai, ond dwi’n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig codi’r pwynt yma. Dwi’n gwybod bod addysg uwch a hyfforddiant athrawon mewn addysg uwch wedi mynd drwy chwyldro yn lled ddiweddar, ond buaswn i'n licio gweld chwyldro arall lle rydyn ni'n edrych ar achredu cyrsiau hyfforddiant athrawon sydd yn darparu athrawon i fod yn athrawon cyfrwng Cymraeg yn benodol, yn wahanol i sut ydyn ni'n hyfforddi athrawon yn gyffredinol. Ac mae yna resymau dros hynny. Yn gyntaf, wrth gwrs, mae pob athro da yn mynd i fod yn athro sydd yn gwybod lot o bethau am wahanol agweddau o blentyndod, o ddatblygiad, o ddysgu, ac yn y blaen. Ond, beth rydyn ni'n gweld dro ar ôl tro ydy bod athrawon sydd yn dod i sefyllfa addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, mae beth maen nhw wedi ei wneud, efallai, mewn un ysgol cyfrwng Cymraeg, efallai o fewn yr un sir, yn wahanol iawn mewn sefyllfa arall, ond efallai nad ydy'r athrawon yna wedi cael y cefndir a'r hyfforddiant i fedru ystyried, 'Ocê, beth ydw i'n cael gwneud? Beth ddylwn i wneud yn wahanol yn fan hyn?'

Dwi'n teimlo bod yna ryw ddisgwyl, dwi'n meddwl, gan bobl yn rhyngwladol, mewn sefyllfaoedd ieithoedd lleiafrifol eithaf llwyddiannus fel y Gymraeg, fod ein hathrawon ni yn cael rhyw fath o hyfforddiant arbenigol. Dyna ydy'r disgwyl. Mae pobl yn holi, 'Sut ydych chi'n hyfforddi eich athrawon i fod yn athrawon arbenigol sydd yn gwybod beth i'w wneud mewn cyd-destun lle maen nhw'n addysgu drwy gyfrwng sydd ddim yn iaith naturiol i nifer o'r plant? A'r ateb ydy, 'Wel, dydyn ni ddim.' Ac felly, dydy'r athrawon ddim yn gwario tair blynedd yn ystyried y materion hynny yn ddwys iawn, iawn, iawn, a hefyd wedyn efo'r holl wybodaeth gefndirol sydd yn bwydo i mewn i'r math o bethau sy'n angenrheidiol o fewn pethau fel WESPs ac yn y blaen, er mwyn i'r rheini gael eu gwireddu yn effeithiol. Felly, mi fuaswn i'n dadlau bod angen ailedrych ar sut ydyn ni'n hyfforddi athrawon i fod yn athrawon cyfrwng, a hefyd sut ydyn ni'n hyfforddi athrawon sydd yn siarad Cymraeg ac sydd yn medru datblygu elfen y Gymraeg mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg hefyd. Dydw i ddim yn teimlo, yn bersonol, fod y cyrsiau sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd yn gwireddu hynny.

Ond, i fynd yn ôl at yr elfen yna o ddenu pobl i'r proffesiwn, drwy wneud rhywbeth felly, efallai fod yna fodd hefyd o farchnata'r ffaith bod athrawon cyfrwng yn athrawon arbenigol, ac efallai fod yr elfen arbenigol yna yn dod â mwy o fri a statws, efallai, i'r proffesiwn. Ond, yn sicr, dwi yn meddwl ei bod hi'n amser inni edrych eto ar sut ydyn ni'n achredu neu sut ydyn ni'n cynllunio'r cyrsiau yn ein prifysgolion ar gyfer hyfforddi athrawon. 

Yes, I am going to say something slightly controversial now, perhaps, but I think it is important to raise this point. I know that higher education and teacher training has been revolutionised relatively recently, but I would also like to see a revolution where we look at accrediting teacher training courses for Welsh-medium teachers specifically, as opposed to how we are training teachers in general. And there are reasons for that. First of all, every good teacher is going to be a teacher who knows a lot of different things about childhood, in terms of development, teaching and so on, but what we see time and again is that teachers, in a Welsh-medium setting, what they do in one Welsh-medium school, perhaps within the same county, is very different to what they do in another setting. But, perhaps those teachers haven't received the training that would enable them to ask, 'Okay, what can I do? What should I be doing differently here?'

I do feel that there is an expectation internationally that, in minority language situations where the language is relatively successful, such as with the Welsh language, our teachers receive some sort of specialist training. That is the expectation. People ask, 'Well, how do you train your teachers to be expert teachers who know what to do in a context where they are teaching through a medium that isn't a natural language for some of the children?' And the answer is, 'Well, we're not doing that at the moment.' And so, teachers don't spend three years considering those specific issues in detail, or being provided with all of the background information that feeds into the kinds of issues that are vital within WESPs and so on, for those to be achieved effectively. So, I would argue that we need to look again at how we train teachers to be Welsh-medium teachers and how we also train teachers who can speak Welsh and who can then develop the Welsh element within English-medium schools. I don't personally feel that the courses that we currently have achieve those aims. 

But, to go back to that element of attracting people to the profession, by doing something like that, perhaps there's also a way to market the fact that Welsh-medium teachers are specialists, and that specialist aspect could bring greater status and esteem to the profession. But, certainly, I think that it is time for us to look again at how we accredit or how we plan the courses in our universities for teacher training. 

10:30

Can I just say there—? Just a question that follows on from that: are there enough trainers to train? Are there enough academics proficient in the Welsh language to deliver this? I know from my experience as an academic, where you've got shortages in certain subjects you can recruit from abroad, you can recruit from England; you can't do that in these circumstances. So, are there sufficient experts to teach the teachers?

Y ffordd rydyn ni'n hyfforddi athrawon ar hyn o bryd ydy balans rhwng yr academyddion o fewn y prifysgolion ac athrawon ar lawr dosbarth. Felly, mae yna gynnydd yn hynny o beth, o ran bod yr hyfforddeion yn cael y fantais o gael elfennau wedi eu haddysgu gan athrawon sydd allan yna. Felly, mae hynny'n rhoi mwy o sgôp, ond, na, does gennym ni ddim digon, ac mae angen denu mwy o bobl i mewn i'r proffesiwn o fewn y prifysgolion hefyd.  

The way that we train teachers currently is a balance between the academics in universities and teachers in the classroom. So, there has been progress in that context, where trainees have the benefit of elements being taught by teachers on the ground. So, that gives us greater scope, but, no, we don't have enough, and there is a need to attract more people to the profession within universities as well. 

I just wonder if there is sufficient capacity within the existing number of Welsh language speakers who are able to deliver that level of workforce at the training level. That's the key problem, isn't it? It's a vicious cycle.

Ie, ond hefyd dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n allweddol bod hyfforddeion sydd yn siarad Cymraeg yn clywed gan arbenigwyr sydd ddim yn siarad Cymraeg am y pethau maen nhw'n arbenigo ynddyn nhw. Ond, mae'r mater bod y myfyrwyr eu hunain yn cael eu haddysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg neu'n cael gwneud eu hasesiadau ac yn y blaen drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn fater sydd bach yn wahanol. Felly, mae yna ffyrdd o'i gwmpas o. 

Yes, but it's also vital that the trainees who do speak Welsh hear from specialists who don't speak Welsh about the things that they are expert in. But, the issue that students receive their education through the medium of Welsh or can undertake their assessments through the medium of Welsh is a slightly different issue. So, there are ways around it. 

10:35

It was on another point, Hefin. If you want to finish your question, I'll come in afterwards. 

Yn fy marn i, efallai byddai integreiddio elfennau o hyfforddiant y cynllun sabothol fel rhan o hyfforddiant cychwynnol athrawon yn help i greu mwy o siaradwyr ar eu taith i fod yn athrawon, a'i fod e'n gymhwyster sydd ar gael i unrhyw un sydd am ddysgu yng Nghymru—eu bod nhw'n gallu cael y cyfle yna fel rhan o'u hyfforddiant cychwynnol. 

In my view, perhaps integrating elements of the sabbatical training could be part of the initial teacher training, and could create more speakers on their journey to become teachers, and that it is a qualification available to anyone who wants to teach in Wales—that they can have that opportunity as part of their initial teacher training. 

I was just going to go on to the additional learning needs question, and also subject specialisms. 

Hefin, just before we do, I think Sioned wants to come in on that. 

A gaf i jest ddod mewn ar y pwynt yna roedd Hefin wedi ei godi? Un peth dwi wedi clywed gan y Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol—. Rŷm ni'n gwybod bod yna brinder arbennig o ran athrawon sy'n medru dysgu gwyddorau a mathemateg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ac, wrth gwrs, rŷm ni'n gwybod hyd yn oed mewn nifer fawr o ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg dyw'r pynciau yna ddim yn cael eu dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg o ran Safon Uwch. Felly, beth hoffwn i wybod yw a yw Enlli neu rywun arall yn teimlo bod hynny angen cael ei ddatrys os ydym ni'n wirioneddol eisiau mwy o athrawon sy'n medru wedyn gafael ar y pynciau yma i lefel cwrs gradd, ac wedyn hyfforddi i fod yn athrawon.

Just on that point that Hefin raised, one thing that I've heard from the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol—. We know that there is a particular shortage in terms of the teachers who are able to teach science and mathematics through the medium of Welsh, and we know that even in Welsh-medium schools, those subjects aren't taught through the medium of Welsh in terms of A-level. So, I'd like to know whether Enlli or someone else feels that that issue needs to be solved if we truly want to have more teachers who can then study the subject at degree level, and then train to be teachers.

Os caf i ymateb ar hynna, y perygl hefyd weithiau ydy ein bod ni'n 'seilo-io' ieithoedd. Efallai bod yna athro fyddai'n gallu, efallai ddim yn hyderus iawn, addysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg ac yn ffafrio addysgu gwyddorau drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg. Ond efallai bod yna ffyrdd o ddysgu'n ddwyieithog fel bod y disgyblion, o leiaf, yn teimlo'n hyderus yn gallu trafod y pwnc yn y naill iaith neu'r llall ac yn gallu gwneud y dewis yna, neu'n gallu pigo i fyny ar y Gymraeg pan mae yna brinder ar gyfer y Gymraeg. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod eisiau edrych ar sicrhau, os ydym ni yn addysgu drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg i fyfyrwyr neu ddisgyblion sy'n gallu siarad Cymraeg, eu bod nhw'n cael eu hybu i ddatblygu eu Cymraeg yn gyfochrog â'r Saesneg, ac yr un fath y ffordd arall—pan maen nhw'n cael eu haddysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, eu bod nhw hefyd yn teimlo'n hyderus i fod yn gallu trafod eu pwnc yn Saesneg fel bod y dewis iaith yna ar gael iddyn nhw wedyn. 

If I could respond there, the danger also sometimes is that we silo languages. Perhaps there's a teacher who may not be confident teaching through the medium of Welsh, and would prefer teaching through the medium of English in science subjects. But, perhaps there are ways of teaching bilingually so that pupils feel confident in discussing the subject in either language and could make that choice, or could pick up on the Welsh language when there is a shortage of Welsh speakers. So, I think we need to look at ensuring that if we are teaching through the medium of English to students or children who can speak Welsh, that they have the confidence to speak Welsh alongside English, in the same way that when they're being taught through the medium of Welsh, that they also feel confident to be able to discuss the subject in English, so that they have that language option then.  

Grêt. Diolch am hynna, Enlli. Nôl atoch chi, Hefin. 

Great. Thank you for that, Enlli. We'll go back to you, Hefin. 

Diolch. The Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol does a fantastic job, but what I've witnessed is that academics are spread far and thin because of the amount of subject expertise they've got to have. But that is the root, I think, of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol. With regard to specialisms, which follows on from that point, if we're going to go deep and provide the kind of specialisms you need to deliver ALN education, for example, which is very close to my heart, that is the biggest challenge, isn't it, to deliver that expertise in Welsh over a period of time. How do you address that? How is that going to be resolved? Because that narrow and deep expertise is very hard to deliver. 

Eto, dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni'n dueddol o feddwl mewn seilos, onid ydym, yn ieithyddol? Pan fo rhywun yn astudio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn y brifysgol, unrhyw bwnc, y tebyg ydy eu bod nhw'n mynd i ddarllen lot yn Saesneg achos does yna ddim digon wedi cael ei ysgrifennu yn y pynciau yna yn Gymraeg. Felly, yr un egwyddor ydy o. Os oes yna rywun efo arbenigedd sy'n gallu sefyll o flaen y myfyrwyr a thrafod yr arbenigedd yna efo nhw, maen nhw dal yn gallu astudio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ond eu bod nhw'n clywed ac yn cael buddiannau o glywed yr unigolyn yna yn trafod efo nhw. Felly, mae yna dipyn bach o hyblygrwydd angen digwydd hefyd—hyblygrwydd ieithyddol—er mwyn i ni fedru elwa o'r profiadau yna tra hefyd yn peidio â llesteirio ar y cyfle i'r myfyrwyr yna fedru parhau i astudio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg a datblygu eu sgiliau Cymraeg nhw yn yr un ffordd. 

Again, we do tend to think in silos in linguistic terms, don't we? When somebody studies through the medium of Welsh in a university in any subject, they're likely to spend a lot of time reading material in English because it isn't available in Welsh. So, the same thing is true. If somebody has expertise and is able to discuss their expertise in front of their students, they can still study through the medium of Welsh, but they can draw benefit from hearing that individual teaching them through the medium of any other language. So, I think we need to have that linguistic flexibility for us to benefit from those experiences without putting barriers in front of students to study through the medium of Welsh, and to develop their Welsh language skills in the same way.   

Yes, please. Hefin, you are absolutely right, and we've got the workforce data to confirm this. I think it's no secret either that when you look at STEM subjects, when you look at ALN, you're going down to very, very small numbers of applicants for any job. If they're Welsh medium, you're very, very narrow. So, you're absolutely right, these are the challenges for us in terms of Welsh language. It's pretty well documented, and we've seen that pattern over the years. As I say, even at the global level, as I said earlier, the total number of Welsh-speaking teachers, and those able to teach through the medium of Welsh, despite great work from the coleg and elsewhere over the years, we haven't seen those numbers increase. So, this is why the new 10-year plan from the Welsh Government is good. There will be no magic bullet to fix this. It needs a concerted effort. But what Arwyn said earlier in terms of the here and the now, as well as the medium term and the long term, is really relevant, because some of the initiatives we're looking to move forward in Wales need those extra Welsh-speaking teachers now. With professional roles, it's a competitive market; my organisation, and many others in Wales, want Welsh speakers, and we always struggle to get them. So, we're fishing in a very competitive market in the short term, I'm afraid. 

10:40

Just to throw this out there, is there an argument for pay differentials and higher pay for that expertise?

I think it was Arwyn who mentioned incentivisation earlier, and that's something that does happen. There's lots of options on the table. I'm not going to answer the question directly, but I think we need to explore all of the options. 

Roeddwn i'n jest yn mynd i ddweud, os ydyn ni'n galw nhw'n athrawon arbenigol, yna efallai bod yna le i fedru rhoi'r cyflog uwch yna. 

I was just going to say if we're calling them specialist teachers, perhaps there is an argument for given them that higher salary. 

Ocê. Hefin, ydych chi'n hapus i ni orffen gyda hwnna? Ie. Grêt.

Dwi'n gwybod roedden ni wedi mynd ychydig drosodd gyda'r amser; rydyn ni wir yn gwerthfawrogi'r ffaith eich bod chi wedi rhoi'r amser ychwanegol yna i ni. Bydd transgript o'r hyn rydych chi wedi'i ddweud yn cael ei ddanfon atoch chi i chi wirio, a dwi'n siŵr efallai bydd yna rai pethau byddwn ni eisiau dilyn lan gyda chi mewn ysgrifen. Ond diolch yn fawr iawn am eich amser; rŷn ni wir yn ei werthfawrogi fe, a dŷn ni'n edrych ymlaen at gario ymlaen gyda'r gwaith pwysig yma ar yr ymchwiliad. Diolch eto i Sioned a Buffy am fod gyda ni hefyd. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Byddwn ni fel pwyllgor yn symud ymlaen at nodi papurau nawr. Felly, i'r tystion, diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you so much. 

Okay. Hefin, are you happy for us to finish now? Yes. Great. 

I know we've gone a little over time, but we really appreciate the fact that you have given that additional time to us. A transcript of what you've said will be sent to you for you to check for factual accuracy, and I'm sure there'll be some things that we'd like to follow up with you in writing. But thank you very much for your time, and we look forward to continuing with this work on the inquiry. And thank you to Sioned and Buffy for being with us also. 

As a committee, now we'll move on to papers to note. But, to the witnesses, thank you very much. 

3. Papurau i’w nodi
3. Papers to note

Gwnawn ni symud yn syth at eitem 3, sef papurau i'w nodi. Eitem 3.1, llythyr gan Julia Lopez o Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig atom ni ynghylch y gronfa cynnwys cynulleidfaoedd ifanc. Eitem 3.2, gwybodaeth ychwanegol gan StreetGames. Eitem 3.3, llythyr gan Weinidog yr Economi at y Llywydd am y Bil protocol Gogledd Iwerddon, ac eitem 3.4, llythyr at Weinidog y Gymraeg ac Addysg ynghylch rhoi nod masnach ar eiriau Cymraeg; roedd hwnna'n llythyr roedden ni wedi danfon at y Gweinidog. Oes gan unrhyw un unrhyw beth maen nhw eisiau dweud am y rhain yn gyhoeddus? Heledd. 

We'll move on straight away to item 3, namely papers to note. Item 3.1 is a letter from Julia Lopez from the UK Government to us regarding the young audiences content fund. Item 3.2, additional information from StreetGames. Item 3.3, a letter from the Minister for Economy to the Llywydd regarding the Northern Ireland protocol Bill, and item 3.4 is a letter to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language on the trademarking of Welsh words; that was a letter that we sent to the Minister. Do Members have any comments on these papers publicly? Heledd.

Os caf i. Dim ond ar y llythyr gan Julia Lopez. Dwi'n falch ei bod hi wedi ymateb yn gadarnhaol o ran y dystiolaeth, ond dwi'n meddwl, yn amlwg, ei bod hi'n dal yn destun pryder bod yr ymgynghoriad hwnnw heb ddod i ben, a bod hynna heb gael ei ddatrys, a ninnau wedi clywed yn glir gan S4C beth oedd buddion y gronfa hon, a beth ydy'r risg heb gael y gronfa hon. Felly, buaswn i'n gofyn: ydyn ni'n gallu cadw hwn fel mater byw i ni edrych arno fo? Oherwydd, wrth gwrs, rydyn ni wedi codi efo'r Dirprwy Weinidog yn flaenorol hefyd os oes yna ffyrdd y gall Llywodraeth Cymru hefyd edrych yn arbennig o ran rhaglenni a chynnwys Cymraeg i blant a phobl ifanc yn benodol hefyd.

If I may. Just on the letter from Julia Lopez. I'm pleased that she's responded positively to the evidence, but I think, clearly, it still is a cause of concern that that consultation hasn't come to an end, and that that hasn't been solved. And we heard clearly from S4C what the benefits of this fund were, and what the risk of not having the fund is. So, I would ask whether we could have this as a live issue to keep a watching brief over it, because we have raised questions with the Deputy Minister before to see whether there are ways that the Welsh Government can look at the programmes and Welsh-medium content for children and young people specifically too.

Ie, absolutely. Dwi ddim yn gweld unrhyw un yn anghytuno. Yn sicr, byddwn ni fel pwyllgor yn cadw watching brief ar hwnna. Grêt. Diolch. Oes gan unrhyw Aelodau unrhyw beth arall maen nhw eisiau'i ddweud ar y record am unrhyw un o'r llythyron? Dwi ddim yn gweld bod.  

I don't see anyone disagreeing with that. Certainly, as a committee, we will keep a watching brief on that. Great. Thank you. Do any Members have anything else to say on the record on anything else, on any of the papers? No. 

4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Felly, os yw'r Aelodau yn fodlon, rwy'n cynnig, o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42, i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. Ydy'r Aelodau yn fodlon derbyn hynny? Reit. Gwnawn ni barhau yn breifat. Mi wnaf aros i glywed ein bod ni yn breifat. 

If Members are content, I propose, under Standing Order 17.42, to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content to agree the motion? Right. We'll continue now in private. I'll wait to hear that we are in private session. 

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 10:44.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 10:44.