Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

I'd like to welcome Members to the meeting of the Children, Young People, and Education Committee. The public items of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, with all participants joining via video-conference. The Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Sioned Williams MS will be substituting for Siân Gwenllian for items 6 and 7, and Laura Anne Jones MS is giving her apologies for items 6 and 7. Are there any declarations of interest from Members?  I can see no declarations. Finally, if I drop out of the meeting for any reason, I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.22, that Ken Skates MS temporarily chair while I try to rejoin.

We'll move on to the first item on our agenda, which is scrutiny of the Estyn annual report 2020-2021. I'd like to welcome all members joining us from Estyn. We have Claire Morgan, Her Majesty's chief inspector of Estyn; Jassa Scott, strategic director of Estyn; and Catherine Evans, strategic director. Members will have had hard copies of your report as well. So, you're very welcome and thank you for joining us this morning. We'll move on to some questions from Members, and the first set of questions will come from Buffy Williams. Buffy.

Good morning. Could you give a brief outline, please, of how Estyn worked differently throughout the pandemic?

Claire.

Thank you. Thank you for your question, Buffy, and bore da, all. Before I come straight to your question, I wonder if I could just set the scene for this year's annual report. This is once again an unusual report in that it covers another period of the pandemic where education has been delivered partly face to face, but also through a variety of blended learning approaches. And the period of the annual report, from September 2020 to August 2021, of course includes the firebreak, but also the second lockdown period at the start of 2021.

So, it's been another very demanding year, but everybody working in education has once again risen to those challenges. They've shown remarkable resilience and perseverance, they've been flexible and creative, continually adapting their practice, often in innovative ways. But, going forward, well-being must continue to be a priority. The impact of learners', staff and leaders' well-being on education cannot be emphasised enough. Continuing to prioritise well-being is essential to ensure learners in Wales can keep on learning.

The pandemic certainly has made everyone rethink aspects of education for now and in the future. We've seen some improvements during the pandemic—for example, in digital learning. We've seen an increase in the confidence around digital skills of staff and learners. We've seen improved communication between education and homes, strengthening links between families and communities, and also evaluating learners' progress over time. But it is vital that we continue to capture and share our collective learning from the pandemic, and certainly in the future.

Now, many providers took decisions during the pandemic that will help them in the future. Schools and other providers have used the time to think more creatively, and it is this same mindset that has energised them to think about teaching and learning that they need to adopt as they plan for the new Curriculum for Wales. But there are some areas long term we're going to have to focus on, and they're going to need careful monitoring. Those areas include communication and social skills, speech and language skills of very young learners and generally independent learning skills, and also pupils' Welsh language skills, particularly Welsh language learners from families where Welsh is not spoken at home. Now, we saw an improvement between the first lockdown and the second lockdown, but extending the use of Welsh outside the classroom in more informal settings will continue to be a priority. And, of course, the last area that we will need to monitor closely is the area around qualifications and assessments in secondary schools, FE and work-based learning.

So, Estyn's role in the pandemic has been supportive, sensitive and flexible. Back in March 2019, we moved swiftly to suspend our onsite activity, and we considered how we could use our very experienced staff to support the education system. During the last academic year, we carried out a range of work. We deployed a considerable amount of our resources to Welsh Government strategy for supporting education—so, initially that was around the continuity of learning programme. We also delivered support directly to schools and other providers through our engagement calls, and most recently these became engagement visits. We also provided tailored, more regular support for providers causing concern, including the schools in special measures, and significant improvement. We also carried out a small number of inspections, including three focused visits to independent schools and online inspection of the National Centre for Learning Welsh.

The whole of the education system stepped up its partnership working and communication with stakeholders, and we met very regularly with our sector stakeholders, our partners and our teaching unions to better understand the challenges, but also to make sure our messages were clearly communicated, and often bust myths about our work. Meeting very regularly with what we call our 'headteacher reference group' has been particularly beneficial during the pandemic. It has helped us to adapt our work and respond to the challenges that schools have faced in real time. For example, the pause year was planned and it was our initial intention to focus on education reform aspects, such as curriculum reform and ALN reform, but we quickly moved our focus to well-being and remote learning due to the pandemic.

We've enjoyed strong links with the education department and the department for skills and lifelong learning, also with local authorities and regional consortia, and we've worked together to co-ordinate support for schools and other providers. We've continued with our usual local authority link and regional link work, and also our multi-agency plans for supporting schools and local authorities.

We also carried out a range of thematic reviews, which include surveys of learners, parents and staff, as well as conversations with learners and staff. These include partnership working in the post-16 sector, local authority support for schools during the pandemic, blended learning in post-16 and learner support in post-16, and we also looked at the Recruit, Recover and Raise Standards funding and, more recently, the teaching of Welsh history, including black, Asian and ethnic minority history, identity and culture. For our own staff, we've also continued our comprehensive professional learning programme for our inspectors, particularly around curriculum reform and ALN reform. And we've, obviously, in the background, been working on our new inspection framework that we plan to pilot with around 30 volunteer schools in the spring term. 

I appreciate you've got a lot to say, but I'm just conscious that other Members will want to come in with some other points and to drill down on some of the things you've said. 

Thank you, Jayne.

Shall I hand back to Buffy?

Thank you, Chair. I know you've touched on the annual report, but could you tell us, please, how robust is the evidence underpinning the annual report, given that inspections didn't take place in 2020-21?

I think, Buffy, with the range of activity that we've been engaged in this year, that there is a robust range of evidence there. When you consider that we've either spoken to or visited, over the pandemic, almost every provider and school in Wales, you'll see that the evidence is wide and far-reaching. This probably has been a unique opportunity in a period of about 18 months, that we have actually engaged with every provider in Wales, and I think that's quite unique, certainly in the UK, but in comparison to lots of our neighbouring organisations in other countries, that we've had that opportunity to engage with every provider, rather than our usual sample of inspections and monitoring. But there have been visits, we have carried out inspections, and we've done an extensive range of thematic work as well to gather that intelligence and independent evaluation of the system. But, of course, when we move back to our core inspection programme, it will allow us to look in more depth on an individual provider level, as we usually do.

Thank you. Could you tell us, please, how Estyn plans to resume routine inspections in 2022, using the new inspection framework? 

Well, we've been working in the background for some time, obviously, before the pandemic, on new inspection arrangements, and it is our plan to start piloting at some point in the spring term. The one big change with our new inspection arrangements will be the removal of summative gradings. We've already piloted this in local government inspections, so this is a piloting now for schools and pupil referral units. But we will resume with a small number of pilot inspections. These are schools that have volunteered to be part of the piloting process and work with us on refining our framework. So, we hope that will start sometime in the spring term. 

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Buffy. There are some questions from Siân Gwenllian.

Thank you. Moving on now to some questions from Ken Skates.

Thank you, Chair. I'm just going to ask some questions about work with other sectors, beginning first of all with learners who have particularly severe and complex additional learning needs in special schools. Can you just outline what the particular impact of the pandemic has been on their educational development, please?

Jassa.

Yes, certainly, Ken. I think a lot of what has been said already applies to special schools that cater for those learners with more complex needs. They've also had to work hard to adapt their provision, often with a greater focus on the immediate outdoor environment and facilities. We've seen some really good additional use and adaptation to those facilities to enable more outdoor learning and more on-site work experience, for example. Overall, we've seen that, however, engagement has been variable.

There have been some particular challenges in some of that provision that is either accessed externally or is received from external partners, particularly for special schools. For example, the usual pattern of delivery for therapeutic interventions that support some of the learning interventions has been quite severely disrupted. Some of it has been able to transfer online, some of it has just stopped, and we've certainly seen some inconsistencies in how quickly some of that provision has either resumed at all, or returned to being provided face to face, and that's clearly had some impact.

We have seen some delays to the statutory assessment processes in terms of learners being assessed for their additional learning needs. And while nearly all special schools remained physically open throughout the second lockdown, there needs to be some continuing support, because we've certainly seen an impact on vulnerable learners' emotional, physical and educational needs. So, that long-term impact that we talked about already is certainly present there.

I'm not sure if you're going to talk separately about pupil referral units, but there are some quite complex needs in those providers as well. Certainly, the work we've done with them since returning has shown that there's been perhaps increased evidence of some of that social-emotional trauma for some pupils when they've not attended in person for periods.

A particular issue, in addition to the therapeutic [correction: in addition to issues with therapeutic services], is that access to alternative curriculum provision, or off-site work experience, and that's been quite severely impacted, certainly during lockdown periods, but even since it's been quite slow to resume. That usual diet of experiences and skills that enables young people to develop, and then their preparedness for the next phases of their education and training—we've definitely seen an impact there.

But we're also seeing some really great adaptations by staff, as others have already said, and that great flexibility, and that really close working with families to build trust and to help understand particular individual needs, and to reach out and support families who are, in some cases, taking on additional support for some very vulnerable learners.

Thank you. That's pretty comprehensive. Can I just go back to what you mentioned about facilities being adapted, particularly the outdoor environment? First of all, how do you know that that has worked—it's very difficult, I guess, to really assess outcomes in a short period of time—and then secondly, if you are confident that adaptations have been beneficial, are they the sort of adaptations that could equally apply to other learning environments?

I think those are really good questions. What we've seen when we've been able to return to visiting in person is that staff have told us that some of those adaptations have really helped to engage learners. Quite often they've been a replacement for what hasn't been able to be accessed elsewhere. In the absence of being able to go and access outdoor pursuits nearby, which is part of the usual curriculum package they put together, some of the providers have upped, in fairly easy, simple ways, some of their outdoor facilities for people to play basketball, maybe put in a climbing wall, done things that have actually enhanced, in the way that they can, their outdoor facilities. I think that will give them greater flexibility going forward, and I think across the board—Cath alluded to it earlier as well—we have seen providers focusing on that, recognising that learning in the outdoors has benefits, and maybe looking to enhance their facilities to support that. So, I think probably there are things that can be learnt, but I think some of that work is happening across some other sectors as well. 

Great. Thank you. Just moving to independent schools, some don't meet the independent school standards regulations. How much of this concerns you, and what interventions and sanctions can be applied?

As Claire touched upon, I think, we've done a small number of focus visits. So, that's not where we've looked at all the independent school standards, but we've focused particularly, usually where we've had a concern around safeguarding. We have found that, in a small number of cases, those haven't been met. We have also done some visits during the year where there were some potential concerns and found that, actually, some really good progress has been made and that the schools do meet those standards. But I think independent schools have found this a challenging time. I think lots of them have adapted really quickly, as other schools have, their provision, but the particular challenge they've faced during this period has been, for example, their work with overseas students, and that has come in multiple ways in terms of having to adapt online provision, having to help support those who are perhaps coming back and having to be isolating when they return to the country, and so on. So, they've had quite a lot to think about there.

We've been working really hard this year to try and raise the awareness of regional safeguarding boards and local authorities about the work that we do and the importance of including us early in any safeguarding concerns relating to independent schools, just so that when we do go and do work in independent schools, we are better informed about the potential risks or shortcomings, because it allows us to do our work better. We're continuing to work closely with Care Inspectorate Wales in a lot of that work. And we're going to be interested to see—as I'm sure you probably will be—the report from the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse in the new year, and see what learning there is from that report. 

We've adapted our work quite a lot around safeguarding over the years, and I think that's probably meant that when we are inspecting independent schools, we're looking in quite a detailed way at their safeguarding policies, procedures and cultures. Overall, there's a small number that don't meet those regulations, but I think where they don't, we're kind of—. With one particular school, we've been adopting a different approach to how we've worked with them and Welsh Government to try and support improvement. Usually, we go and tell them what's wrong and then monitor, but we have been trying to play a bit more of a pastoral role as well during this period with one particular school. And we've engaged with all independent schools, as we have for other providers, in that kind of pastoral way during this period, which is not something, again, that we usually do for independent schools. So, we've had quite close contact with them in general. Overall, we're not overly concerned that they're not meeting the standards, but, in those few cases, we're keeping a close eye on it. 

Have any independent schools been, shall we say, resistant to your involvement and offer of support? 

No. Actually, they've been very positive about it. The independent school sector is a very broad and varied sector in Wales. There's only a small number of what you'd think of as a traditional private boarding school, with quite high levels of international students and things. The actual sector is really broad and caters for some of the most vulnerable learners that we've got in Wales in terms of those that are under the care of local authorities, and so on. So, I think that they have always valued the regular monitoring that we do with them, and we see them take it very seriously and use it to help them improve. We've actually published some reports of cameos and things, which they've really valued, because I think they can be quite isolated sometimes and don't always share practice between themselves, don't have local authorities and consortia perhaps supporting them in the same way that maintained schools do.  

Okay. Thank you. Just one last question. We've had many, many accounts through the media of challenges that a lot of students in further education colleges have encountered in terms of practical assessments where they're taking vocational qualifications. Are there any brief lessons that Government should learn, do you think, that you're able to outline?  

I think it has been a challenging year for learners in those settings, in FE and for apprentices as well, and I think they've found that quite worrying. There are still some that are waiting to complete assessments now, because of the lack of access to certain sectors and so on, health and social care being obvious areas for that. In terms of learning, briefly, I think we've seen that it's been better able to manage where they are Wales-designed qualifications for Wales, and there has tended to be a closer working for some of those qualifications between Qualifications Wales, the sector and Welsh Government in terms of quickly adapting and being able to engage with the sector as part of those adaptations. I think what the sector have found frustrating is the breadth of qualifications that sit, perhaps, in some of the awarding bodies that cater largely for England, for example, and their ability to actually engage, feed back, influence, and also just then the timeliness of some of the adaptations and the advice, and also the fact that that's quite often come after more academic qualifications, the advice about adaptations and things, which hasn't helped in that feeling of a parity of esteem between vocational and academic qualifications. I think that continued engagement with the sector, but certainly over time, continuing to build the number of qualifications that are Wales designed, may help address some of that.

Great. Thank you. That's been really helpful. Thanks, Chair.

Thank you, Ken. Moving on to some questions now from Laura Anne Jones. Laura.

Thank you, Chair. Moving on now to the adverse impact of the pandemic. I'm just going to bunch a few questions into one that I've got, to try and speed things up. I just wanted to ask how damaging you think the pandemic has been on our children and young people's mental health, physical health and educationally. Schools and teachers have been fantastic, let me just say that, and there have been, as you said, some shining examples of best practice, but attainment gaps have widened, inequalities have been exacerbated and PISA results are the worst in the UK and on a par with ex-Soviet bloc countries. Not only those who were eligible for free school meals were affected during the pandemic; children whose both parents were working suffered with remote learning and lack of support, lack of devices, Wi-Fi as you've said, during the pandemic, particularly in the first one. The appalling lack of support has just been touched on for the ALN learners. And lack of physical exercise, which was non-existent, particularly in the first one. And the massive differences in delivery of education during lockdowns. Welsh language and languages progression suffered. And there has been just a general lack, as Ms Scott said here, of work experience. And the rise in abuse. The list goes on an on. As well as the social role for school, obviously, which we've now seen has been so important on mental health, with children not seeing their friends during the lockdowns. How large a divide have you found in the quality of provision of education during this pandemic, between schools, between areas—across Wales, basically? And how do you see us being able to ensure quality of provision going forward, particularly if we do have any further lockdowns? Thank you.

Thank you, Laura. You've summed up the many, many challenges, and the worrying impact of the pandemic. I think the challenges that education professionals have faced are considerable. We know that as well as prioritising the well-being of learners and families, nearly all leaders during the pandemic had the responsibility for almost the health, the welfare and safety of their staff as well. They were juggling so many different aspects. This placed considerable pressure on the well-being of all leaders working in education, and that continues. And supporting colleagues through anxiety, illness, bereavement became commonplace—a part of the responsibility of headteachers, principals, and everyone working in education.

But from our visits to schools, it is clear that many pupils have gaps in their learning, and some of those gaps you've mentioned already, there, Laura. We've picked up social skills, those early speech and language skills, physical fitness, which you mentioned, and all of these areas, along with well-being, must continue to be a priority as we move forward.

Schools tell us that you can visibly see the impact on learners' levels of anxiety, higher rates of absence and pupils appearing to be more passive in lessons than they were before the pandemic. There's quite a lot of work to build up the resilience and confidence of learners. And between the two lockdowns, we certainly saw an improvement in the provision and less variability, and in order to build on that, we need to make sure that we share the learning across education, and not only within individual sectors, but across sectors, and Jassa's already talked about some work, working across post-16 as well. So, there's quite a lot of learning that we need to continue to share, even though, already, providers are working with partners. Schools, for example, have been working in clusters to support one another and share the learning. Some of those clusters are quite large; there can be 20 schools working together in a geographical area, so that you share and you achieve what could be called economies of scale for the learning.

But I think we need to be mindful of the stress and anxiety in the system, particularly in relation to qualifications and the effect that that's had on secondary school learners and post-16 learners and obviously the staff who are supporting them. So, I think, Laura, I've tried to touch on your question there, but happy to pick anything else up.

That's great, Claire. I think Ms Scott wants to come in.

Yes. I just wanted to add, as Claire underlined, that I think one of the benefits that we've seen has been a wholesale kind of understanding and awareness of the interlinking between well-being and pupils' ability to learn and make progress in their learning. And I think what we have seen from a positive point of view is quite a big focus on professional learning, particularly targeted at understanding that link, at understanding things like mental health first aider training and the impact of trauma and adverse childhood experiences, which we'd started to see filtering through a little bit before the pandemic, but we've certainly seen it accelerated. So, I think, some of that wider understanding about that interlinked nature of how children and young people learn and support for staff will help to also address that inconsistency, perhaps, that you talked about, Laura.

Yes, thank you for that. You've said that key stage 3 pupils have been particularly affected, as, when secondary schools reopened, they prioritised older groups, obviously, who were going through qualifications. Given that those key stage 3 pupils will soon be taking qualifications themselves and are amongst the first cohorts to resume exams, how serious a concern is this and what should be done about it? 

Catherine.

Thank you. Thanks, Laura. It is a challenge and, obviously, it's been a number of years now since learners have had a whole school year without any disruption. What I alluded to a little earlier was that, for some of those key stage 3 pupils, when it came to the centre-determined grades process, that generated additional workload for schools and, on some occasions, cover supervisors and supply teachers were used to enable schools to release staff to undertake the marking and the awarding of the centre-determined grades. But schools have also been very creative and very flexible.

What we've seen in the last few months is that, actually, the impact of the pandemic has not been so much on whole year groups, but it's been on individual learners. What we saw during the annual reporting period last autumn was that there were whole year groups that were accessing distanced learning, and the report notes that some year groups missed 10, 11, 12 weeks of face-to-face learning. It's slightly different this year, and there is going to be much more variability within schools, within classes and within cohorts. So, we need to make sure that our arrangements recognise that and that there are systems and structures that support schools to be able to liaise with WJEC and Qualifications Wales.

The awarding of qualifications is an extremely complex area. It's important that the system that we have is fair and robust, and that there is comparability with other jurisdictions across the UK. I think that there is a lot that we can learn from 2020 and last year, where we saw headteachers, the Welsh Government, Qualifications Wales and WJEC collaborating together to develop a system that was as fair as possible for our learners.

Thank you for that, Catherine. Just following on from what you have just said, obviously there's a lot of concern about the exams and qualifications, how they have been over the last couple of years and, obviously, the higher results that materialised and the implications for the value of those qualifications now, long term. How confident are you that plans for 2022 will respond to the situation that those learners have experienced in terms of equal opportunities to learn? Thank you.  

Thank you. I think that what we've seen during the course of the pandemic is that there have been some adaptations to the qualifications. So, there have been changes to the syllabus, so that there is less content, some more flexibility, and I think that that has been welcomed by schools. But, as Claire mentioned a little earlier, changes to the system have created anxiety for young people and a nervousness.

We know that there has been an increase in the proportion of learners who are achieving some of our highest grades, but we also know that there were considerable changes to the way that assessments were made, and I think that they have been clearly communicated. So, what's important, I think, is that we continue to communicate well with learners and parents, so that they understand that the system—. There are benefits to collaborating with headteachers, with the Government, with WJEC, as the awarding body in Wales, so that we can make sure that we've got public confidence and trust in the system. I think that there is some learning to take forward from the last two years. Now, we don't know what's going to happen over the coming months, but I think that what we can see from the past two years is the way that, really, the teaching profession have responded swiftly to what has been a complex and challenging area.

Thank you. Thanks, Chair.

Thank you, Laura. Questions now from James Evans.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. It was remiss of me earlier not to say that I will declare an interest as a local councillor and governor. But, because we are not discussing individual local authorities or schools, I think that I am fine to continue. You say in your report that the well-being of pupils has been, and must continue to be, the top priority for our schools. Do you think that this, in any way, detracts from the efforts to recover and renew academic progress?

Claire.

No, I don't think so, James. I think that they are part of, as Jassa mentioned earlier, the same story. We need to support the well-being of learners and everybody working in education, so that everybody has the opportunity to reach their potential. So, part of the reform programme is about also creating the right curriculum in our schools to support not only learners' well-being, but actually their wider development as we work towards the four purposes of the new curriculum. 

Lovely. Thank you, Chair. Claire, what do you think the prospects are for the education system to re-energise the school standards agenda? We've got school leaders and councils, and I want them to focus on improvement, rather than just maintaining provision. Do you think that there could be a potential problem there?

I think that, before the pandemic, we were in a period of ambitious education reform, and there is still widespread support for that reform. There’s still widespread support from schools for curriculum reform, but also for the additional learning needs reform. I think what the pandemic has encouraged is more collaboration across the system, and if we are to keep on securing improvements in education in Wales, collaboration is part of that and the commitment to work across organisation boundaries to support learners, but also gathering the best practice and sharing it widely is an important part of everyone’s responsibility to support our learners.

That's good. Just picking up on that, we’ve all seen the impact of the pandemic on the readiness and ability of schools to implement those major educational reforms, like the new additional learning needs system and the new Curriculum for Wales are huge pieces of work for our schools. So, what role will Estyn have in that, in supporting our schools to deliver these educational reforms?

Well, throughout the pandemic, and going into the autumn term, we’ve continued with our engagement visits to schools, and part of those engagement visits has been those professional conversations around curriculum reform and ALN reform. We will continue to have those conversations, to publish best practice around those areas, but also in our thematic reports and our core inspection work we will be evaluating progress, but also sharing the best practice so that we can learn and input into the system from the intelligence we’ve gathered directly from schools. So, we’re very supportive of the reform agenda, and we will ensure that our work complements and supports that direction.

Okay. Lovely. I just want to touch on standards now, if that's okay. So, the role of local authorities and regional consortia in driving improvements differs across Wales. How concerned are Estyn by the situation in the south-west and mid Wales region with regard to standards?

Jassa.

Do you want me to pick that up? I think what we’ve seen is that regional consortia and local authorities are currently adapting their approaches to school improvement in light of some of the learning they’ve had during the pandemic, but also in light of the draft Welsh Government guidance around school improvement. So, we’re seeing a range of different approaches being adopted.

You’re right, I think, in what you’re saying there that school improvement arrangements in the south-west have been restructured over the last few months. So, the new organisation, Partneriaeth, has been established to support schools in Carmarthenshire, Pembrokeshire and Swansea; Ceredigion and Powys are collaborating on some provision; and Neath Port Talbot is providing that school improvement support itself to its schools. There has always been a range of approaches across the consortia, even when they looked more typical in the way that they were established: they took different approaches, they were configured in different ways in how they provided that support to schools. So, I think we’re keeping a close eye. We’re going to be doing some quite close work with those authorities, through our link inspectors, during this year to look at the impact of those differing arrangements. We’ve recently done some thematic work, particularly looking at support for curriculum reform across Wales, and we have looked at those different structures, so that report will be published early in the new year.

So, we don’t have a set view on how that support should be delivered. I think it could be successfully delivered in different ways, but, clearly, we’d like to see the impact of some of those changes, and I think it is fair to say that the energy that’s gone into the discussions and the restructuring and the reorganisation clearly has taken time and resource away from directly providing support to schools. I think that’s just a logical conclusion that probably anyone could make. So, at the moment, we haven’t seen a negative impact, as such, or positive. I think it’s too early to say for sure what the impact will be  of those different approaches. There continues to be better collaboration across the board, I think, including all those local authorities that are named in the south-west, and I think there's generally better working between regions and local authorities as well, and I think that's in some ways been strengthened more recently. So, we'll just keep an eye, through the work that we're doing this year, to see what the impact on standards is.

Lovely, thank you. And my final two questions here, but the final one you might have to write to us on this: Estyn do have a role with helping with school standards, so have you now reverted from the pastoral visits that were undertaken due to the pandemic back to formal statutory monitoring, and can you confirm the numbers of schools that are in the two statutory categories requiring significant improvement and requiring special measures for Estyn monitoring? The final part of that question, I'm quite happy for you to write to the committee on, with your indulgence, Chair, because I don't expect you to have those numbers to hand. But the first part of my question I would like an answer to, thank you.

I can answer that first part anyway, James, and colleagues may be able to come in with the numbers very quickly. Throughout the pandemic, we have kept in quite close contact with providers causing concern, and we started with pastoral calls, we moved on to pastoral visits, and last summer we moved on to monitoring visits. And we've continued with monitoring visits during the autumn term, and a number of providers have come out of monitoring during this last round of monitoring. Some of those reports have been published and some are going through our quality assurance system. And we hope that that gives the system some confidence that the schools that we've monitored and have come out have not taken their foot off the pedal on the areas that needed to improve. Obviously, they've faced immense challenges, but they kept focused, and we were reassured by our visits of our teams of inspectors carrying out the monitoring visits to those small numbers who have actually been removed from category.

We've also reviewed schools that were in Estyn review. We used a different model this year, where we met with each of the local authorities that have schools in Estyn review to discuss the progress of those schools, and some of those schools also came out of monitoring. So, we've continued with our monitoring of schools causing concern, and we think that was right, because those are the schools we're particularly concerned about. Now, the numbers, I'm not quite sure—. Cath, I don't know whether you can come in with the numbers for James.

I was just going to say I think it's probably better if we send an e-mail, only because there's a little bit of a lag between monitoring and the publication of the report. So, we can send that on to you later today.

Okay. Thank you, Cath.

Thank you very much. Yes, we really would appreciate that, and I'm glad you'll write to us on it. Thank you, James.

Moving on now to some questions about some of your thematic reports. You published your thematic report last week on peer-to-peer sexual harassment, and that made incredibly disturbing reading and it was horrifying for us to see some of the results in that. Perhaps you could outline some of the main findings of that report in secondary schools in Wales.

Yes, no problem. Yes, it was a concerning report, but we visited 32 schools and spoke to 1,300 learners as part of that, and that's really what helped us to publish the report with the findings it has. The learners were incredibly open and honest about their experiences, and staff too were honest about some of the challenges they've faced in dealing with this area. We've talked a lot about well-being today, but despite that strong focus on well-being, secondary schools just don't realise the extent of sexual harassment between pupils was one of the main messages, because pupils don't tell them, for a number of reasons—partly they don't feel confident enough, partly that schools haven't always created that culture or the opportunities for them to do that, but partly just because they don’t realise that that was something that maybe they should share with teachers as well, which is quite worrying.

Young people told us that peer-on-peer harassment happens mostly online and outside of school, but that that does sometimes then get brought back into school and their experiences in school, and they were keen that teachers and staff understand how common it is. And about half of secondary school pupils say they've had personal experience of some form of peer-on-peer sexual harassment, with twice as many girls reporting this compared to boys.

But pupils value well-delivered and purposeful personal and social education lessons, but they say they don't have enough opportunities to discuss sexuality and healthy relationships, and they don't have adequate provision for sex education. So, we think it's helpful that relationships and sexuality education will be a mandatory part of the new curriculum. So, that's a real opportunity to build some strength into that area. In the best schools, they do already promote a strong ethos of respect and celebrate diversity across all areas. It's really important that that's built upon and that whole-school approach to prevent negative and harmful peer-on-peer behaviour is built up to create an atmosphere where young people can report negative experiences. It's important to say that where they did, schools generally dealt well with particular incidents and put in place appropriate support for people who had been victims or for perpetrators, and quite often did something with whole-school assemblies and things on the back of that. But that tended to be reactive rather than building a proactive and conscious approach to it.

Alongside the report, we've published resources that we used as part of the work, which we hope will be helpful, but we've also published in more detail some of the feedback that we got from young people, just because we hope that will be helpful for schools as well.

So, in summary, really, it's important that that new statutory code and guidance is embraced, does become a statutory code and guidance, and that there's appropriate training, sharing of practice, and that it's really prioritised. But also, it's a wider issue than just schools, and I think we tried to make that point in the report—that this is an issue for society, and there were lots of aspects of the work that we found, beyond the remit of schools, beyond our remit, that were to do with the way that online gaming, social networking sites and things actually normalise some of this as well. So, there are things there as well that, perhaps, are for another time for the committee to look at, with other people maybe, as well.

Thank you. It's really interesting to see the work of some of the schools in the report, and that you outlined some of the good practice in schools. How much work is done to share that good practice at the moment? And is that something that could be done pretty easily? It's something that seems quite a commonsense thing to do, but is that something that you can advantage of very quickly?

I think so, as well, and I think it's about embracing the opportunity provided by the new curriculum to share what is good practice in some schools, and, I think, in the best schools, they realise that the expert advice can complement what they're doing in school.

But there are some quite important messages in there about the amount of curriculum time given to this. I think the new curriculum does place health and well-being on a higher status, generally, and it will be important that relationship and sexuality education is given the time it needs within that as well, particularly as you get towards key stage 4 and the pressures of qualifications creep in and so on, because that's where we found it was lacking. But, certainly, I think some kind of bespoke training, some networking and sharing of practice, so that the best schools—[correction: and sharing of practice from the best schools would help]. But also, I think, the important point is all teachers realising that they have a responsibility, because one of the things we found in the work was that, sometimes, schools see it as being a small number of staff's responsibility to deliver on this, and it may be for some of the specialist provision, but, actually, this is something that is everybody's business, which I know is a phrase we use in relation to other things, but all staff should have enough awareness to understand if a pupil raises something with them. So, I think there's that general awareness raising as well.

Thank you, Jassa. Claire.

Very quickly, Jayne, I think you've raised a really important issue, and that's professional learning. I think, in relation to this particular thematic, but also right across the board, we've talked about lots of challenges together this morning, and it's absolutely essential that our workforce has high-quality professional learning so that they feel equipped to meet the challenges that they're presented with, hopefully at the end of the pandemic, when it comes, but also as we plan for education reform generally.

Thank you, Claire. Thank you, Jassa, as well. I was just interested if you'd picked up any points—obviously, you looked at secondary schools in Wales—and whether you got a feeling of issues from primary schools or issues that were formed at primary schools. And, obviously, in terms of further education colleges and higher education colleges, do you think that's something that's an issue too, and how big an issue is that?

I think the indication is it's probably a similar scale of issue in further education, and we're hoping to do a follow-on piece of work, potentially working with the Quality Assurance Agency for Higher Education, to look at this particular issue across further education and higher education. I think it is something that carries on through, so we think it's important to look at any particular differences there. We suspect there'll be some common issues, but perhaps the responses will need to be different in those different sectors.

In terms of primary school, we didn't look specifically at that, but some of the intelligence we've picked up was that some of the things that we found in key stage 3 in terms of perhaps not dealing with some of the important bits of knowledge that pupils needed, really, to navigate through this, that there may be some of that in primary as well. We haven't looked specifically, but that's just picking up from what pupils told us at key stage 3 as well.

I think part of the report—. You've done a clear chart, really, of what young people have got a strong view about and what should be done, what could be done. One of the things that I was just thinking about—. You've got, I think, nine recommendations in the report. Perhaps you could outline what you think specifically should be done to tackle this problem—what the main things within those nine are that you see as something that would actually make a difference quickly.

I think, firstly, as I said, is that recognition that peer-on-peer sexual harassment is highly prevalent in the lives of young people and that schools really need to adopt that whole-school preventative and proactive approach to dealing with it. So, I'd say that was the No. 1 thing. That would include providing pupils with assurance that school staff will take every incident of peer-on-peer sexual harassment seriously, and I think working in partnership with parents and external agencies to tackle this would be really important as well. So, in addition to what I've already said, in summary, that's probably where they need to focus their efforts initially.

I think there's such a big issue around online that it will take, obviously, a lot more than just schools to deal with and tackle it.

Absolutely. I think lots of schools do take online safety really seriously, provide quite a lot of helpful information, but the fact that lots of this was happening at home, I think there's that—. We've already talked about schools working better with parents in the pandemic—that's been one of the positives with the pandemic. So, hopefully, there's a real momentum for them to be able to work in partnership around this as well, so that they can tackle it at home and in school, and try and support young people and start to change things, really.

Thank you. Another one of your thematic reviews was about the adequacy of the way Welsh and black and minority ethnic history is taught in schools across Wales. Perhaps you could outline some of the main points from that.

Thanks very much, Jayne. We were really pleased to identify some good practice in a number of the schools involved in the thematic, but I think the report makes it clear that there are some important areas for improvement. As Claire mentioned a little earlier, more needs to be done to support teachers' professional learning. They lack confidence and have little knowledge of important events to support them with their teaching and learning, and I think that professional learning really starts from initial teacher education, where we're training new teachers into the profession; there's got to be a thread that runs through the course of a teacher's career. Other important messages are around strengthening curriculum planning. Schools identify that Curriculum for Wales provides a significant opportunity to enhance and improve the teaching of local and Welsh history, but having a more integrated and coherent curriculum is important, as well as access to appropriate resources—access in English, but also making sure that the same high-quality resources are available through the medium of Welsh as well.

Okay. James. James Evans.

I've got a general question, Chair. I can ask at the end or I can bring it in now; it's up to you.

Bring it in now.

Yes. Mine's just around standards again and the role of governors, and I just want—. Governors come from wide range of diverse backgrounds, and I was just wondering, from Estyn's perspective, do you think governors have the tools and are taught enough—given the knowledge—to ask the difficult questions sometimes of schools to make sure that standards are being maintained and that headteachers are actually performing to their best levels? Thank you, Chair.

Thanks, James. Who's going to take that one?

I'll take that one.

Claire.

That is a good question, James, about governors. There is more that could be done to support governing bodies, particularly where they have newer members of governors. One of the ways that, prior to the pandemic, we'd been supporting—. In addition to being involved in governor training wherever we can, and supporting organisations who deliver that, we also encourage governors to be part of our lay inspector programme. So, on every one of our inspections, we have a lay inspector who is not an educational specialist or professional, and we feel this is an ideal role for a governor to gain insight into what matters in schools and to observe how we carry out our evidence-based independent evaluation. We've seen an increase in the number of governors train as lay inspectors with us, and we certainly see in the future that number growing. And I think that will have an impact on the confidence levels and the ability of governors to be able to support schools, but also challenge them so that they support the improvement of a school as well. So, that's part of what we've been doing as well.

And I think we hope, next year, to be able to do some more work around the role of governors in our school, and, again, identifying some of the good practice and being able to signpost governors to what works well in schools in particular.

James.

Yes, Chair, thank you. Speaking from personal experience, Claire— and thank you for that—I actually didn't know that that training was available. So, Chair, maybe we could do a bit of work in perhaps writing to local authorities to make sure that governors are aware of the training that Estyn provides around that, to make sure that we are getting the best use of our governors and they are actually asking the appropriate questions to maintain and improve standards in our schools. Thank you.

Thank you, James, for your suggestion.

That would be helpful.

I'm sure we'll do that. Brilliant. Any further questions from any Members? No. Okay. So, that's the end of this evidence session. Thank you so much for joining us today—really appreciate the answers that you've given. Thank you for the work that you've been doing as well during this time.

So, we'll now move on to the—. You'll also—. Sorry, I should say that you'll receive a transcript as well of today in a few weeks.

Claire, did you want to say something?

I just wanted to thank the committee for finding time to scrutinise the annual report in a very busy schedule, and we're very pleased that committee has picked up all the important issues and challenges that are currently facing education. So, thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch, Claire. Thank you for that. 

We'll now move on to our next item on our agenda. So, I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for items 4, 7, 8 and 9. Are Members content? I see all Members are content, so we will now proceed in private. 

Bore da. Welcome back to the meeting of the Children, Young People, and Education Committee. We'll move on to item 5, which is a paper to note. Full details of the paper are set out on the agenda and in the meeting papers. Are Members content to note the paper? I can see all Members are content.

We'll now move on to item 6, which is the pre-appointment hearing for the appointment of the Children's Commissioner for Wales. For this item, we have received apologies from Laura Anne Jones and Siân Gwenllian, who were both part of the cross-party recruitment panel, so they won't be joining us for this item. But Sioned Williams is here as a replacement for Siân Gwenllian for this item. 

I'd like to welcome the preferred candidate to the meeting, Rocio Cifuentes. You are the Welsh Government's preferred candidate for the position of children's commissioner. Congratulations on your successful progression through the recruitment process so far. Just to clarify that the appointment of the Children's Commissioner for Wales is made by the First Minister. This committee, and the Senedd more widely, have no formal role in the recruitment process. However, it is an opportunity for the committee to scrutinise the Welsh Government's preferred candidate before the appointment is confirmed. Rocio, would you like to make any opening remarks before moving into questions from Members? 

Thank you, Jayne. Bore da. Good morning, everybody. Just to say thank you so much for the opportunity to present to you—diolch yn fawr iawn am y cyfle. It's a huge honour to have been selected as the preferred candidate for the incredibly important role of Children's Commissioner for Wales, and I very much welcome your scrutiny today as the Senedd Children, Young People, and Education Committee, and I'm looking forward to the next 45 minutes and answering any questions you may have. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much, Rocio. We'll move straight into some questions. In your opinion, what has been the biggest impact of the role of the Children's Commissioner for Wales since it was created in 2001? And then how will you build on the impact to date?

Thank you, Jayne.  I think the creation of the commissioner's role in itself is a huge achievement; it was the first in the UK. Wales was the first country to create such an office and role, and the message that that sends out to all children and young people living in Wales—that they matter, that they have a voice, that their rights need to be upheld—that message in itself is a huge statement, which is far more than any symbolic achievement, and, in practice, the implementation of what that office has achieved through its previous commissioners has also been huge. I've been particularly impressed by how conversant children and young people in Wales have become with the language of rights through so much work that's gone on through schools, through youth groups. The language of children's rights is very much part of our vocabulary in Wales, and that is something that I would very much look to build on and try to ensure that even more young people from even more diverse and marginalised backgrounds actually start to understand and ensure that their rights are upheld through the range of public services and entitlements that they enjoy here in Wales.

There have been many other achievements I can think of just recently: the introduction of the smacking ban, for example, is a huge achievement for children who live in Wales, making sure that they have the right to be safe and that that right can be legally upheld. So, the actual incorporation of many aspects of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child has been a huge achievement, although I believe that there is further that we can go still towards incorporation of the full UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. And I would very much hope to build on the successes of Sally and previous children's commissioners in influencing and pushing Welsh Government and inspiring the whole of Wales, across all of the public bodies and services that we have in Wales, to really ensure that they can also make sure that children's rights are at the core of everything that they do, and that they are not just something we talk about, but that they actually become a reality.

Thank you, because I was going to ask about the importance of children's rights, which you touched on very much in your opening remarks. So, you feel that children's rights would shape your priorities in your term.

Absolutely. Protecting and promoting children's rights and the rights of every child who lives in Wales is absolutely the core purpose of the role of the children's commissioner, and it would absolutely be the reason that I would do everything, that I would get up every day. Children's rights are not just a nice idea; it has to be something that is a reality for every single child, as I've said, not just for some children. We are living in, unfortunately, an increasingly polarised and divided society in many ways, and the gaps between the experiences and life outcomes of children are vastly different. So, rights have to be equal for every single child who is either born in Wales or comes to live in Wales. Every child holds those rights equally and universally, so it would absolutely be fundamental to everything that I would do, everything I would stand for, everything that I would be speaking about, and ensuring that those rights are something that children deeply understand, know how to access, know where to go to if those rights are not being upheld, and have a strong advocate to stand up for them if something does go wrong and those rights are not respected.

Thank you, Rocio. We'll now move on to some questions from Ken Skates. 

Thanks, Chair. Thanks, Rocio. It's great that you're able to join us today—thanks so much. I'm just going to ask some questions regarding suitability for the role. First of all, obviously this is a national role, and anybody applying for a national role will probably have a greater awareness of certain geographical areas of Wales than others. What parts of Wales are you most familiar with—the way that the systems work, local authorities, elected Members, local authority officials? And which areas are you least familiar with, and how would you go about learning more about those geographical areas and the perhaps distinct issues that young people face in those geographical areas? 

Thank you, Ken. I've been fortunate in my role as chief exec—my current role as chief exec—of the ethnic minorities and youth support team. I've been fortunate to have developed that organisation from scratch, when it started in 2005, to now becoming a national organisation that works right across Wales and has staff and offices in, I'd say, all four corners of Wales—it's not exactly a square, but you know what I mean. So, we have offices and staff in Swansea, Cardiff, Newport and Wrexham, as well as mid Wales, and through developing all of that work in those very different parts of Wales for the last 16, 17 years, I have been able to go those places, obviously, meet children and young people and the different organisations that exist in those places. I have met many fantastic community organisations. I have been fortunate to, most often, have the support of local authorities in those areas, and to meet Assembly Members, who have been incredibly supportive.

I recognise, I fully recognise, that life is very different for a young person living in Wrexham to what it is for somebody living in Cardiff. However, I do have a very good understanding of the realities in those locations. I have myself, and also have commissioned other people, through my organisation, to undertake research—so, evidence-based understanding of the realities of life for children and young people in those different locations. I have also—. My organisation also supports families living in very rural areas in mid Wales, for example, through the Syrian and Afghan refugee relocation schemes. So, I would say that my understanding of Wales in all of its different localities, diversities, including Welsh-speaking Wales—. It's a hugely different experience. There are issues of isolation, public transport needs, broadband needs, employability, access to jobs, access to education, access to health—all of these issues are vastly different.

I live in Swansea, so that's the area I know most about in terms of my lived experience. I would welcome the opportunity to really travel more into those rural locations where I have maybe been there once or twice, but I think you can never say that you know an area by just doing that. So, I would really welcome the opportunity to travel and visit and get right out there, maybe to the smaller parts, the smaller cities and towns, of Wales, rather than just the larger ones, where, in my work for the last 15 years, there are higher concentrations of ethnic minority people, so that's where my work has focused. So, I would be looking to get out there beyond those areas. 

Lovely. Thank you. And obviously, the role covers an enormous number of policy areas, and I'm sure I speak for other Members of the Senedd when I say that, when I speak with young people, one of the primary concerns that they express is over mental health and support for mental health and emotional well-being. It's a hugely important matter and policy area that will become even more significant over the course of the coming years, given the effects of the pandemic. Are you confident that you have the breadth of experience to deliver in this role, and particularly in that area of mental health and emotional wellness?

'Yes', in a—. The short answer is 'yes', because my role has actually also encompassed a huge breadth of policy areas, including mental health, which has become an area of far greater focus during the pandemic particularly, and, through my role in EYST, we have developed partnerships with a range of mental health specialist organisations, including Mind Cymru, Platfform, and I could list many, many others. And I'm aware of Welsh Government's increasing focus on this area, and particularly the intersections of mental health and how it affects children and young people I know has become an increasing area of focus for Welsh Government, as well as local authorities and public health bodies. So, it something that my work has already involved, as probably most of the third sector has been involved in this conversation for the last couple of years at least. But, in practice, it is definitely one of the policy areas that I am conversant in. I'm a member of several networks, forums—whatever the different names are—so, working groups that look at how mental health can be improved for children and young people, for different groups, for ethnic minority groups.

The issues are diverse, but they are also very cross-cutting. There are clear links between increasing mental health needs and, for example, anxiety over climate change or anxiety over the impacts of the pandemic and unemployment and the looming cost-of-living crisis. So, mental health is not something that is separate to the rest of our lives. It's something that cross-cuts and really intersects with all of those areas. Disabilities—we know that mental health needs are hugely more prevalent amongst people who live with disabilities, as well as people with other protected characteristics. So, it is something that I would be very committed to, and it would be one of my priority areas that I would like to focus on.

Great, thank you. And can you just expand on your experience of managing an organisation with a staff team and a budget? Because, obviously, the team that you'll have won't be very big, but it will be vitally important in serving the interests of young people. Of course, the budget will probably remain relatively constrained—we'd love to see more investment in this area—but, obviously, it will require careful management. Do you have that experience, do you think?

Yes, thank you. In fact, you say that it's a relatively constrained budget; I understand it's around £1.6 million per annum, which, coincidentally, happens to be the same budget, more or less, that I have been managing as an annual budget for my current organisation, EYST. And in the third sector, we think of that as quite a large budget, so everything is relative. But, in terms of managing a high number of staff, my current staff team is around 65. I understand in the commissioner's office it's a lower number, but a similar budget. So, I'm very familiar with all the needs around ensuring good financial management, planning ahead, making sure that project budgets are kept to, looking at forecasting ahead, cash-flow forecasts, looking at underspend, overspend, making sure that any changes are reported back appropriately to any boards or, in this case, it would be the audit and risk committee, I understand. So, making sure that, financially, there is complete transparency is something that I've been very used to and have managed very successfully for the last 16 years. And that is something that I'm very competent and experienced in.

Lovely, thank you. Thanks, Chair, that's all from me for now. 

Thank you, Ken. Questions now from Buffy Williams. 

Thank you, Chair, and thank you for joining us this morning. Thinking about what you'd like to achieve during your tenure, how will you measure success in your role? 

Thank you, Buffy. I have said that my three priorities would be, firstly, reducing inequality. I have already spoken about the growing inequality and widening gaps that children and young people are experiencing here in Wales, and so reducing inequality and closing that gap would be one of my key priorities, and it is just not fair that so many children and young people are just not having the same chances and access to education or employment or health as other young people and children in Wales. So, that lack of fairness is just something that has to be addressed. So, how a change could actually be measured is slightly more complicated, but clearly we have child poverty measures, we have attainment rates in accessing education, we have health data outcomes that we could look at, rates of entering higher education and further education, and that kind of data. So, reducing the inequality gap would be one of my key priorities, and I think we could measure that in a relatively clear way through looking at existing data.

Secondly, one of my other priorities would be to support children in what they really want to do and something that they are really, really worried about, which is protecting the environment and preventing a climate catastrophe. This is something that children and young people are hugely anxious about, and it is really important that we as adults actually act on what they care about and are concerned about, and the acting is more important than the saying. So, in the words of Greta Thunberg, no more 'blah, blah, blah', because we have made huge progress in terms of legislation and in terms of various Acts that bind Government and public bodies to protect the environment and so on. However, I am less convinced and less confident about how robustly and urgently we are all acting as leaders in Wales, and I would need to really be advised on the best measures for how we actually measure protecting the environment and preventing a climate catastrophe. But I would be informed partly by how children feel about that and looking to work on the excellent work that the children's commissioner has undertaken recently, in undertaking a large survey with children and young people. So, it is partly about what we actually do, but it's also partly for me about how children and young people feel about what we do and how seriously we are taking this climate emergency. 

And then my third priority would be looking at the physical and mental health of children and young people. As I've already said, I think mental health has become a huge issue, because children and young people, quite rightly, are so extremely worried about what they see going on in Wales and around the world, not just in relation to climate change but in relation to growing inequality. And they should be worried, but at the same time we need to put things in place to make sure that their mental health is supported, and their physical health, because the two go hand in hand. I've been really, really reassured by the proactive steps taken by the current children's commissioner, for example, in rolling out the Summer of Fun opportunities and the Winter of Well-being programme, because those opportunities have meant that more and more children and young people can actually just get out there and have fun and play in the outdoors with their friends, and really make up for some of the lost time, and they did lose so much during the last year and a half, nearly two years now. So, that is something that I would really like to do more of. And measuring physical and mental health outcomes, I think that, again, there is a huge body of experts there who can help us get the right data in place, but it would also be partly about how children and young people feel, and I would like to do that through rolling out more surveys, such as the commissioner has done recently. Thank you.

Thank you. So, if appointed, how will you respond to new issues that emerge during your tenure?

The first starting point for anything that I would do would be going out to talk to children and young people about how they feel about new issues—hopefully we won't get another pandemic, but whether it's a pandemic, or whether it's a global seismic event such as the death of George Floyd, for example. These events and issues do impact on children and young people's lives in Wales, so the first step would be going out to talk to them and to talk to as wide a range of children and young people as possible, because children and young people are not a homogenous entity—they will have a range of views, experiences and positions and will be impacted in a range of different ways. So, listening, learning, understanding, talking to other public bodies, to other leaders and to other commissioners and looking also not just within Wales, but outside of Wales at what other children's commissioners and ombudspersons are doing across Europe and across the world. None of us has the answer to everything; we can always learn from other people and can take best practice from right around the world and I know that that's something that the current commissioner, Sally Holland, has done really successfully. So, that is something that I'd do anyway. I welcome working with others collaboratively, in partnership, learning from them and taking their best ideas. There's no shame in that at all. So, I would really be looking to work very collaboratively also with Senedd committees, with Members of the Senedd and right across the small but fantastic groups that we have in Wales. That is one of the positives—that we are very interconnected in Wales across sectors, and we can and do work with each other very well.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Buffy. We've got some more questions now from Ken Skates.

Thanks, Chair. I'm just going to ask one or two questions about engagement with young people. How do you envisage reaching out to young people who are often marginalised and don't feel that they have a voice? How would you go about doing so in practical terms?

Thank you, Ken. As well as my experience working for many years with ethnic minority young people, including refugees and asylum seekers, I also founded a small charity for young people with disabilities, which is still very much thriving in Swansea, called MIXTUP. And I have volunteered for that charity monthly—I was at their Christmas party on the weekend, for example. So, that experience has really enabled me to understand more deeply the range of needs that children and young people have, including those who may have communication needs or who may have high levels of anxiety or physical disabilities. So, I have that broad experience, but I just wanted to let you know that my experience has not just been with refugees, asylum seekers and ethnic minority children and young people, for example. So, I think it's about going to the places where children and young people already are, and if those places are not there, it's about talking to the many wonderful community groups and charities that exist in Wales that support children and young people and trying to reach out and identify the different groups through that flourishing third sector and also through schools and through the formal education sector.

But to really reach the most marginalised, I think there's nothing like getting out there, getting on a train and getting into those communities, spending time listening to them, just having a chat, being open to what they want to tell you, going there with no agenda. Once I am in that space, I think it’s really important to have the integrity and the commitment to actually act on what they tell you, because there’s nothing worse than engaging with anyone, whether it’s a child or an adult, and asking them to tell you maybe some quite personal things about how lack of access to education or health has impacted on them, and there's nothing worse than then going away and doing nothing with that. That is exploitative. That is bordering on abusive. That is something where, through my career, I have been very determined to always act clearly and with integrity, and being very honest and transparent about what I can do, what’s possible, what I would like to do, and what is within my control, what is not within my control, and clearly communicating that back to the child or you person that I would engage with, not just leaving them hanging, as it were, not just going there, turning up, taking some photos, and then they would never hear from me again. I think the follow-up is as important as the initial engagement, maintaining that relationship, giving them opportunities to speak for themselves. I hope that I would not always have to be a spokesperson for children and young people; I would hope to really share that platform with children and young people as much as possible, obviously as appropriate to young people's own age and capabilities. But, really, my approach would be all about empowering children and young people to find solutions and answers within themselves, and to be themselves the change that they want to see. I would not try and do things for them; I would try and do things with them.

And what's your view on the use of social media for promoting certain matters? And, in terms of reach, how would you go about using social media to connect with young people?

Social media is like any form of media—it can be used for good or for bad, and the reality is that children and young people are using it more and more, and very often it's the main source of their information, and that is a reality that public bodies and commissioners would have to grapple with and embrace. So, it would be about me and my own office using appropriate platforms in a positive and empowering way, and in an informative way. Also sharing information about the dangers and what can go wrong in using social media, both for a public office, but also for children and young people, and equipping those who work with children and young people to work more proactively and positively and appropriately with social media is something that, probably, I would like to advance as well. Too many teachers and people probably the same age as me actually don't feel confident and don't understand, and that leads to a missed opportunity to really talk to and understand what children and young people are themselves saying. It's a platform for expression, it's a youth-led platform, and we, as maybe the slightly older grown-ups in the room, have to listen to what they're saying. They're trying to use this to communicate with us. There is so much creativity and potential within the different platforms that I think that has to be embraced and supported, rather than seen as something that is automatically feared or viewed as toxic. There are dangerous and damaging elements, of course there are, but it's up to us to really understand and be clearer on how we can mitigate those risks and how we can embrace the positives.

Thank you. Thanks, Chair. That's it now from me.

Thank you, Ken. Questions now from James Evans.

Thank you, Chair. I've got four questions, if that's all right. The first question is—. You know, I go around doing a lot of school visits and talk with a lot of young people, and if I ask them, 'Who is the children's commissioner?', you get a blank face. They don't really understand the role, they don't know what the role does, and I want to know how you intend to build the role, really, so young people, when I go out to schools, know who the children's commissioner is and what they actually do. Because, at the minute, it doesn't seem that they know what that role is actually doing for them.

Thank you, James. I agree with you, although I think progress has been made, as I mentioned earlier, in relation to the idea and the language of children's rights. I think that children do know that they have rights, but I agree that most of them don't know what the children's commissioner is. My own children didn't really know until a few weeks ago. I think what I would do is really try and utilise the fantastic networks that I've already alluded to, which I have very strongly across the third sector. I would utilise those charities and community groups that are already on the same page in terms of their values and their motivations for supporting children and young people in their own communities. They will not need much convincing to open their doors and share opportunities to promote what the children's commissioner is all about and what the office is trying to achieve. So, I would utilise those networks, and that would enable reaching a very diverse range of young people and children right across Wales from different backgrounds, including young people with disabilities, children and young people who are carers, who are LGBTQ, who are refugees and asylum seekers. Children and young people in all of their diversity could be reached through the third sector.

But I think also—and this goes back to the previous discussion on social media—social media can be utilised to really spread the message in a much more powerful way than has been done previously, and I think also involving children and young people in that effort is an opportunity that hasn't been fully exploited, using the power of peers to spread and promote the message. The children's commissioner already has an ambassador programme, which is really excellent, but I think that could be rolled out even further to create more ambassadors, and maybe through the social media space, using young people to promote the idea of what the office is about.

I would like to involve children and young people more proactively, perhaps, during the first year as part of the engagement conversations, in asking them for their ideas, what do they most want from me in this role, what do they see as the opportunities to tell more people about what the role entails and what it means for them. It's not something that should be about me; I really hope it's not. It's about children and young people and empowering them to really understand and stand up for their own rights. We could have children's commissioner ambassadors in every school, and I would really love for it, by the end of my tenure, or hopefully slightly before, for children and young people to really be as conversant with the idea of the children's commissioner as they are with the idea of Childline, for example. Maybe this goes back a few generations, but the idea of Childline—my own children have sometimes said things like, 'I'm going to phone Childline' in a slightly jokey way, obviously. But most children and young know what Childline is and know that they can phone it if they don't agree with what their parents are telling them, for example. I would like most children and young people to feel the same about the children's commissioner, that they know that this is an individual who holds an important role, who is willing and able to stand up to other powerful people, if the law in relation to children's rights is not upheld. I would like for children to know that I will have their back and I'll be there next to them should they need me.

I think there are so many opportunities that are in front of us. I think we have a fantastically positive and progressive legislative framework in Wales, which is something to be proud of, but something also to build on and something to make sure that we actually implement in relation to children's rights as a fundamental form of human rights in Wales.

Okay. Thank you. I have got two more questions, Chair. I know you're going to be pushing me for time, but I'm going to ask them regardless, I'm sorry.

Go for it. 

You've talked about some bigger ticket items that affect young people, but there are some lower level items that I believe do affect young people on a day-to-day basis around more young people becoming sexually engaged at a younger age, which is a big issue, limited job opportunities for young people as well, drug misuse problems across our society, and also I was talking about social media and how much that is having effects on young people's day-to-day lives. I just wondered what approach are you going to take to managing, as I call them, the more the day-job issues, rather than the bigger ticket items, because if we don't deal with the little items, we won't sort the bigger items out.

Thank you, James. Yes, absolutely, they are the day in, day out experiences. Unfortunately, too many children and young people are still experiencing the issues that you just mentioned. I have worked in youth homelessness and I have worked in an FE college, so I have worked with, I guess, your average, if you want to call it that, child and young person in Wales. And I grew up in Wales myself so I know what it's like to be a young person living in Wales, which has significantly higher poverty rates and unemployment rates than other parts of the UK. So, I understand all of those issues. I know as well that there are huge amounts of excellent statutory and third sector organisations working in that space to support children and young people with substance misuse issues, who are maybe experiencing homelessness or who may be experiencing sexual exploitation and so on. There's a huge amount of positive work going on. I think more could be done to join up those services. There's often a very disjointed approach, different boundaries to different projects, different projects that stop and start, and I know that the current children's commissioner Sally Holland has done a lot of work in trying to address that through the 'No Wrong Door' piece of work that she drove through. 

In terms of employability, we are, unfortunately in Wales, still unclear about what the future of the replacement funds for European structural funds will be. That is an area of uncertainty, but this just means that we have to redouble our efforts to do everything that we can to really support children and young people and empower them to come up with solutions themselves, to believe in themselves. I like to take—it's a bit of jargon, I suppose—what is now called an asset-based approach, but it just means that you see the potential before the problem; you see the skills and the strengths before the weaknesses and the challenges. I would like to inspire and support children and young people to also take that approach themselves personally, so that they realise that they don't have to wait for somebody to come and help them—not in every case—to get a job or to overcome their issues. Sometimes they have the creativity and the solution within them, or maybe on their doorstep through a local community group, that they could create something brand new and present it to funders, to the powers that be, as an idea that they have.

There is so much creativity, innovation and potential in children and young people right across Wales. They are already leading the way in relation to many things. We have the incredible Youth Parliament that's just been appointed, for example, and I would really hope to be working closely with those youth representatives from right across Wales to understand how they could support their own peers in their different localities, and how they could help spread the message. So, this is a really exciting time to be in this role of children's commissioner. I fully understand that there are huge issues, challenges, needs, priorities, but I think that, working together, we can join up all the dots and make children and young people central to those conversations. We shouldn't always be talking about children and young people without them; they should be amongst us, they should be empowered to be talking to us, we should be listening directly, not always through intermediaries like myself. 

James.

Thanks, Chair. I will ask my last question really quickly, and if I could get a succinct answer, if you don't mind, because I'm running into Sioned Williams's time now, and she won't thank me for it, I don't expect. This role does require you to be independent of Government, even though it's appointed via the First Minister, and I do know that it is hard, sometimes, to be completely independent when you're appointed in this manner. So, can you outline what techniques and expertise you're going to use to make sure that you can be truly independent of Government and actually hold them to account, not supporting them and holding their hand? Thank you. 

Thank you, James. I'm aware of the history and the context of this question, I suppose, and the question around the independence of the role, particularly given that it is appointed and funded by Government. So, I'm aware that it's been a question for quite a while, and also that a previous recommendation to remove it from the Government and give it to the Senedd was not supported or implemented.

But I think, in practice, although there are some tensions within the formal relationship between the office and the Government, from what I have seen and heard, the role has actually been able to act in a very independent way for the last 20 years. It might be time to review that again, but nevertheless, in practice, myself—I am a person of integrity and somebody who is driven by my own values and principles of social justice and making a difference, so my first line of accountability will be directly to children and young people, and I will always speak directly for them and advocate for their needs and priorities.

I definitely don't see myself as working for the Government; I see myself as working for children and young people. But I'm also aware that it's a balance of power. So, to maintain that power balance and ensure that, as you said, James, I'm not seen to be or in practice working to support them, I think it's important to build allies with a range of other organisations, but also working very closely to complement, enhance and contribute to the work of committees such as yourselves, for example. I see my role as similar to yours in that we would both be here to scrutinise the Government and their effectiveness in relation to children and young people's rights. I would always seek to maintain that balance of power by investing in those relationships and creating strong allies who can support me.

I think that the role of the office of the children's commissioner is very much about maintaining and exerting not just the actual hard legal powers, but the soft powers and the moral authority that is within the office. Because of the successful way in which previous commissioners have carried out their role, they do hold that level of moral authority so that, if they suggest or recommend something, Welsh Government should be listening, as should other public bodies. So, it is a fine balance in terms of maintaining that independence, but it's something that I would definitely ensure that I did myself, because it would be my duty to do so, to actually hold Welsh Government to account and ensure that they are upholding children's rights. And that was my primary motivation and statutory duty to do so. 

Thank you, Rocio. Moving on now to questions from Sioned Williams. I know we're running out of time, but Sioned has some important questions, so I hope you're happy to stay a bit longer to answer Sioned's questions. Sioned. 

Diolch, Sioned. I think there are many opportunities. I've probably already spoken quite a lot about the benefits and the opportunities, but to answer your question about the detail about how I would, I think, for example, giving evidence to inquiries that you may hold or sharing with you the evidence of written reports that I may commission, bringing different stakeholders, including children and young people, to speak directly to you as a committee on different issues, and also utilising the expertise of the very experienced staff team who work for the children's commissioner. So, all of those would be practical ways in which I would see myself and my office contributing to the very important work of the committees in scrutinising Welsh Government. And also I would hope that the favour could be returned in some ways, in that I would hope that your committee could also contribute and support some of the priorities and pieces of work that I would be looking to instigate. I know that that kind of mutually supportive relationship has appeared to have worked very well with the current children's commissioner, and I think that kind of triangulation, if you like, between the Welsh Government, the Senedd committees and the children's commissioner, can be a very, very productive and impactful one.

And then just thinking about some of the challenges, I imagine, like in any area of life—even if I just mentioned a triangle—it could become a little bit too cosy, and that could be one of the challenges in that you can often get stuck in certain paradigms, making assumptions that—because you never talk to anybody outside that triangular bubble, your ways of thinking or your assumptions never get challenged. So, I would hope to mitigate that by really opening and creating and maximising opportunities for children and young people from very diverse backgrounds and walks of life to come into those spaces, to really sense check, maybe, along the way, not just at the very end of a report or at the very end of an inquiry, but to sense check along the way different pieces of work—to come in, whether through an advisory committee or to come in as experts or as witnesses to say how they feel about, maybe, just an idea that is at its very early stages and to build that in regularly through the life cycle of projects and the reporting cycle of the commissioner's office, for example. So, I think that would be one way in which I would mitigate the challenge of just becoming too cosy and too stuck in a certain way of thinking and way of working.

I think another challenge and another potential source of frustration, I suppose, could be how long it takes to work through the mechanics of Government and the bureaucracy of the Senedd. It's a very long time, even for adults, but it's even longer for a child or a young person, so I would hope that we could look at maybe trying—. Well, I think everybody wants to make these things quicker, but I don't know how easy that will be in practice, but maybe just to look at ways of building into that process maybe some quicker wins or some more clear outcomes and impacts and being able to more clearly communicate to children and young people along the way, 'Well, you told us this, we've done this, we're hoping to achieve this by then, but, in the meantime, at least we've done x, y, z.' So, just to show and evidence to children and young people the progress and the steps that are being taken and made along the way, and to be very clear about maybe what some of the things that might take a bit longer are and why that is taking a longer time.

So, I think just the time that these things take is another big potential challenge, but, hopefully, just being clear and explaining could mitigate some of that frustration.

Outside of Wales, there are—. I think that one of the challenges of working in Wales is the devolved nature of Wales and some areas of work being fully devolved and some being retained by the UK Government in terms of competence. So, I understand that, in the law, the Children's Commissioner for England actually has some powers over some aspects of children's lives in Wales, so I would be looking to create a positive working relationship with the Children's Commissioner for England, for example.

Then, in terms of just learning from best practice, the other children's commissioners in the other UK areas and countries such as Scotland and Northern Ireland would be key stakeholders as a source of people to learn from, but also as a sounding board for myself, because it is a very unique role and that just personal and professional support would be incredibly useful, as well as commissioners outside of the UK and across Europe and the world; I believe the current commissioner has a very effective network, which I would like to maintain.

But I think, coming back to just our nearest neighbours in England, I suppose, we need to recognise that that is an important dynamic that needs to be respected and worked with constructively and productively—so, not only the children's commissioner, but the senior people in UK Government and the particular competence that they have, for example over areas of immigration, of youth justice, and even things like the tax and benefit system are entirely controlled and maintained by the UK Government, although it impacts on children in Wales. So, all of those decision makers in those policy areas at UK Government level would be key stakeholders to really build understanding relationships, to build a level of trust. There may not always be full agreement on ways of working or ways forward, but there needs to be a relationship that is open enough to have robust conversations and try to seek the most positive solution for children and young people in Wales. 

I think, apart from that, I haven't mentioned the UN and the reporting cycle, which happens every five years, I think, and has been delayed due to the pandemic, but will be happening, I hope, within the next few years. The role of the UN and other international legislative bodies in terms of upholding this whole international human rights structure of which the UNCRC is an important component—that would also be an important stakeholder and relationship to develop, and maintain and build on the fantastic work that's already in place.

Sioned.

Thank you. So, as somebody who was brought up bilingually, in English and Spanish, because my parents came here from Chile as refugees, I have seen first-hand how important bilingualism and multilingualism are, and I think it's a crucial and integral part. So, learning a language and being able to speak one's own mother tongue and expressing yourself in that language is crucial to maintaining and celebrating the culture, heritage and identity of a country. So, I fully embrace and endorse the Welsh Government's commitment to continuing to celebrate and promote the Welsh language, and I was really excited to see the way that the requirement was built into the job description for this role. It was done in a very inclusive way. So, it was not, 'You must already speak Welsh' or 'You must already be fluent' and so on, it was, 'You must be prepared to reach that level within a certain time frame', which is a fantastic way forward, I think, and best practice to be followed by others, because it includes and doesn't exclude people from the offset.

I am really excited about the opportunity to continue to learn Welsh. I've already started, as I've just showed you, and I learnt Welsh in school until the age of 11 when, unfortunately for me, I dropped it and did German. It wasn't compulsory at the time. I'm really glad that it is now compulsory to the age of 16, but I think we can still do far more to help more children and young people in Wales really appreciate the language, have high-quality opportunities to learn it, and have maximum opportunities to use it, not only in school, but in employment and in their lives beyond school. So, I think we have come a long way since I was in school, and for the better, in terms of the Welsh language. But there is still further that we can go, and I would really welcome discussions with the Welsh Language Commissioner to see how our different areas of work could align. I think it's just an important and crucial part of our heritage, of our culture, that needs to celebrated and promoted and protected. It's something that needs investing in, it needs active promotion, it's not something that is just going to be there regardless of what we do. It's a choice that we make, and this is a choice that—I'm really happy that I'll be learning more Welsh in the future, so diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much, and that's the end of our session. Thank you very much for staying a little bit longer, but I hope you understand that Members had lots of questions that they wanted to ask you. So, thank you for staying a little bit longer than anticipated. You will receive a copy of the transcript as well. Thank you again, and good to meet you. 

Diolch. And, as Members know, for the next items, as previously agreed, the meeting will go into private session to discuss those.