Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

I have a declaration in respect of my son, who's a freelancer.

Diolch. Jason.

Bore da, bawb. I'm Jason Thomas. I'm director of culture, sport and tourism.

Diolch.

Bore da, good morning, everybody. Gerwyn Evans, deputy director, Creative Wales. 

Jason, did you want to come in? I see you looking as if you do. 

Thanks, Chair. Steffan covered the point that I was going to raise about the first quarter coverage. Thank you. Diolch. 

Jason Thomas.

Thanks, Chair. Just to come back in on that point as well, we do have a really extensive dialogue with the events industry. We work with them very closely, and of all the sectors that we support, for them, things are probably the most uncertain. They were obviously one of the first sub-sectors to be hit by all of this and are likely to be one of the last fully out, so to speak. One thing that it's important to note is that, in the control plan, at alert level 2, we have provision for pilot/test events in there. So, that will give us an evidence base with which to decide then how far we can go as we move, hopefully, into the rest of the summer. 

The other point that I would make would be that, clearly, England has set out a different approach to events. We need to look at what they are doing there and assess the impact of that as well. We need to take in a wide range of an evidence base with which to inform our decisions. So, there's a lot of work to do over the coming weeks and months, but I think that it is right to say that we do work closely with the sector, and we did go further than England in terms of our cultural recovery fund. We supported the events industry through that. That didn't happen across the border.   

Okay. Thank you. 

I can come back in, Chair, if that's okay.

I think that it's all about having the most robust evidence base that you can possibly have before making decisions. So, at the moment, obviously, throughout the last 12 months, there have been virtually no events across the UK. But in our alert plan, we say that we will move to test and pilot events at alert level 2. In England, they've said that they're going to go slightly further than that, and they've committed to do quite large-scale events at the different tiers in their plan. So, when I say we need to look at England, we need to see that if they do proceed as they've indicated, and they do hold these larger events, we will need to see the analysis of how that's gone to inform our own decision if we are at an earlier stage in our alert level plan, if that makes sense. And it's not just England: we need to look globally as well. Wherever events are taking place where coronavirus is prevalent, we need to look at the mitigations that have been taken and what impact they have had, to inform our own decisions. And if those events have actually caused a spike in transmission, and the mitigations haven't been successful, that's obviously going to be quite significant for us in our own decisions.

If there's an opportunity, Chair, could I come back to the last question point as well? Only relatively briefly.

Yes, siŵr.

Diolch, Chair. So, in terms of the impact that the pandemic has had, as the Deputy Minister's said, clearly, some things have had to slightly move right, if I could call it that, because, effectively, all the team, all the officials, not just stakeholders as well, are absolutely completely consumed by trying to support livelihoods throughout the pandemic and the cultural recovery fund, et cetera. So, I think that's a given.

But there have been these incredible opportunities, if I can call them that, that have been presented to us. The cultural recovery fund itself has allowed us to develop relationships with organisations that we've never really had relationships with before, particularly those on the more commercial end of the cultural sector. We've been able to put in place a cultural contact with those that I think is really groundbreaking and is going to lead to some real structural changes in the whole cultural sector. We've spoken about this in the committee several times over the years, about under-representation and about concerns about social justice and wages in the sector. The cultural contract gives us an opportunity to address some of those over the longer term. And as the Deputy Minister said, the use of technology and just digital output is really transforming many of the players in this sector, and I think that's brought forward progress by a number of years, actually. So, there have been positives.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Minister, can I just start by saying, like yourself and Carwyn, I'm about to enter the next phase and become, as I put it, 'a mischievous citizen's politician'? And I dare say you plan that and a lot more. But I would like to put on record that I've found your contribution in public life a source of constant stimulation. What it's stimulated has not always been agreement, but it's always been of interest, and I'm sure that's the view of all colleagues in this Senedd. So, my best wishes for the future.

I want to ask these questions in a sort of legacy context, really. As you know, committees prepare a legacy report where they reflect on the work they've conducted in the Senedd term and then cast an eye forward, and in that spirit really of looking at the Welsh Government's policies in the fifth Senedd, and then perhaps some of the lessons that whatever Government is constituted after the election you may want to mark. I think it's fair to say that, during this Senedd, there's been a lot of success in getting the very established organisations in the arts field, those that have a lot of institutional capacity for marketing and seeking sponsorship and generous commercial activity as well, to shift really to more self-dependency and to draw less on public funds. And I think this has strengthened the sector. But that whole strategy, obviously, has relied on a business model that's not been viable during the COVID pandemic. I just wonder what you think the consequences are for this, and also for the funding strategy of any future Welsh Government. Will we have to go back and have a transition stage, where more public support is going to have be offered to our flagship organisations? I'll come then on to the rest of the sector, which isn't at that sort of level of national/international importance. But, for that part, which is really important to the Welsh nation in so many ways, do you see the funding model having to change a bit in the next Senedd?

Thank you very much, David, for your kind remarks, and the feeling is mutual. So, we'll stop this mutual admiration society and get on with the business.

But I come from a lot of activity in the past with ABSA—the Association for Business Sponsorship of the Arts, which then became Arts & Business—and I was working alongside Rachel Jones, very early on, on the establishment of Arts & Business Cymru, and I am a firm believer in a model of sponsorship that is a mix of the public sector, whether it's central Government or whether it's local government, or increasingly now, hopefully, a consortia of local government in the regions. So, I think that's a very good way of going forward, because it takes me back to the days where I started off, when there were regional arts associations in different regions of Wales, and that brings together, then, the local authority and other public sector providers, along with the arts council. And I can only pay tribute, whenever I speak about this, to the way in which the arts council, under the amazing leadership of Nick Capaldi and the chair, Phil George, and other senior officials there, have led the process. Their ability to get money out of the door, rapidly, has been absolutely amazing. And that proves to me that public sector bodies, with strong leadership and with representative membership—and that means, particularly these days, that we have a look at, well, the colour of the skin and the faces around the board table, and the proportion of gender balance, all those issues, because that's part of the democratisation, as well as the commercialisation, up to a point, of the funding. So, that's the approach, and I think that approach has shown that it can work, and it has worked very well in Wales, even in this crisis.

I suppose what I'm trying to get at, really, is, given that the organisations, some of them, I think, were up to 80 per cent of self-generated funds, I mean, it's really been impressive, but that has not been feasible in the last year and it won't be feasible for, possibly, several years to come. And I just wonder how a future Government is going to have to handle that, and will it need a transitional strategy to get back to where we were before COVID struck? And, of course, this is dependent on things like, you know, will mass audiences be returning, and will that be done safely, and there are a lot of contingencies there. So, I just think, to have some sort of strategic view of that, or are we going to be in an exceptional situation for the foreseeable future, in terms of how we structure our—? What was a very coherent strategy is obviously, now, not been fit for this—. Well, 'not fit for emergency' is probably not the way to put it; it was just not appropriate because of the conditions of the emergency. And that's what I'm trying to get a sense of, when we may be through that phase.

Well, the big benefit that I've seen through this crisis is the substantial increase in digital working, and that, obviously, will continue, and the making of artwork and performance available to a much wider—and a new audience, very often—through all the digital platforms that we have. And that was always a priority for me, to develop the digital side, and I'm very pleased to see that organisations have been able to do that. I see no reason why that side of what we've learnt in terms of ways of working through the crisis cannot but increase exponentially.

Diolch, David—

Let me—. Oh, sorry. Let me just put the question in another way: are any of our major arts organisations—so, these are the ones that are operating at a national and international level—at risk of losing significant capacity in the near future?

Well, I hope I can say that the answer is 'no'. We have worked very closely with the Wales Millennium Centre; there's a very exciting project whereby the National Library of Wales is going to have a space in the millennium centre. I think this is exactly the kind of collaborative working between national organisations that I hope to see. I still manage to link in to the seminars that the WNO—Welsh National Opera—have been staging throughout this pandemic. There's a very good spirit and a very strong sense of determination in all our national institutions, and there's an appetite to work in creative ways.

David, before I bring you back to your questions, I know that your advisors have comments, Minister, but Helen Mary Jones just has a small supplementary. Diolch yn fawr, Helen.

Diolch, Chair. So, I think if I could come back Mr Melding's questions, it's a fascinating line of questions, because it does present almost an ideological challenge, really, for everybody in the sector. If you went back pre pandemic, I'm obviously generalising here, but you could certainly generalise to say that, in terms of where we wanted the sector to be over the previous five, 10 years, possibly even longer, we've wanted the sector to be more commercial and to be less reliant on the public purse. So, we've been driving through initiatives to make them more imaginative and to do that. When the pandemic hit, you could also really generalise and say that those who were the most reliant on the public purse were the most insulated, because their wages were already covered, effectively, by the public purse. So, those organisations that we have been driving to be more commercial then became the most impacted, which is unbelievably challenging. Now, we've worked really closely with all elements of the sector over the last 12 months, and I think it's fair to say that, from the big players to the small players, they do not see an immediate return out of this. It's going to take time for the public and paying customers to be comfortable again to go into venues, and that is going to take some time.

But then there will also be, I think, a challenge, which is: do we return to that strategic drive, which is to say to be more commercial, because there will obviously be a worry that a pandemic could hit again in the future and they then might be more exposed to it? My own sense of this is that things will return, I guess, more akin to what they were before; those commercially minded organisations will want to get back to that and just try to make themselves even more resilient. I think Mr Melding hit it on the head when he said that we will need some form of transitional arrangements, arrangements to get people back up and running, ultimately, to support the institutions to be more commercial again into the future, although we acknowledge that is going to take even more time now because of all of this. But, ultimately, it's to get commercial organisations back up and running and thriving again. But it is a real, I guess, like I said, ideological challenge for all of us, and we've got to learn from what's happened over the last 12 months.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Just very quickly, yes, I totally agree. A sustainable business model has literally crashed overnight, and I think the approach we have in place now—. There's the short-term approach, the short-term approach being making sure these organisations can survive and are still there at the end of the pandemic—so, the mechanisms we have in place like the cultural recovery fund and the job retention scheme are a key part of that. But then it takes us more towards the medium and longer term approach that we will need to have in place, just to make sure—. We all recognise there will need to be some extended support to make sure these organisations can return safely, but also, very importantly, with consumer confidence, so that they can return sustainably as well into the future. Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Diolch. David Melding.

Thank you, Chair. Thank you for those answers, for all the answers. I think that's helpful to have on the record, and it's certainly been my analysis of the situation as well, so I'm pleased that this type of planning is going on.

The second area—I just want to look at what assessment you make of the Fusion policy. This committee, of course, did quite a lot of work looking at the Fusion policy, and I found it very interesting. I was impressed by the way it was getting the established institutions to really examine themselves. Minister, you've already referred to that in part, in saying that the Welsh Government, in increasing public funding, again, through the crisis, has obviously had more leverage, and they've had more time to attend to some of these matters. But it also looked at the big gaps in community arts provision, particularly the ethnic minorities and those on low incomes and in areas of considerable deprivation, and you quoted Raymond Williams, along the lines of, 'To be human is to be cultural,' which is something I emphatically agree with. Where do we stand with Fusion and how strong a force do you think it needs to be to shape policy in this area in the next Senedd?

Well, Fusion is a programme that we regard as a priority, not least because, of course, it was the brainchild of Baroness Andrews. We both met originally when she was a senior librarian in the House of Commons, before she became a parliamentarian. Kay Andrews has taken a strong interest and has visited us and has had discussions with us about the development of the Fusion programme.

So, there is a total of £250,000 in the budget to support Fusion co-ordinators. These are people that work within communities, that work with local authorities—in my memory, I think it's eight co-ordinators; it may not be, that may not be accurate, and I know one of my colleagues, the officials, will correct me. But the idea is that we create opportunities for individuals to access employment, to work in partnership, and cultural and heritage bodies are, of course, prioritising volunteering opportunities, work placements, training, and encouraging individuals to become involved in local culture. And I sincerely hope that Welsh Government will still, in the future, see the development of the Fusion philosophy and practice as an appropriate priority. As I say, it's £250,000 that is in the current budget. 

Thank you for that. You may recall, Minister, that in our report we thought the Fusion co-ordinators were absolutely key and it was the highest priority, we felt, because, beyond their immediate work, they shape a lot of what's happening in terms of public resources and can give advice also to larger institutions about their own programmes and accessibility. So, I think we would all agree on this committee that it should remain a priority. 

My final question is just to get some idea and an update on where we are with the national contemporary gallery, and also the proposals for a football museum. I think both have had working groups that were in their final stages of coming up with plans. There's a fair amount still in the budget, as I understand it—some £9 million or so. I think what I'd like to get an idea of is what sort of capital investment will there be in Wrexham in terms of making that fit for a national museum site for football, and then the hub-and-spoke idea in terms of the contemporary gallery. If you could just confirm, I think the concept is that there would be some capacity in an existing location that's increased, rather than a completely new venue. But I think it would be useful to know where we are and how spade-ready we are in terms of the next Government being able press the button for this work to proceed. 

Well, we are very spade-ready, I hope. Certainly, I'm very happy with the development in Wrexham, where Wrexham County Borough Council has been leading the project to create a football museum for Wales and, if I can use the expression, a spiritual home as well as a historic home for Welsh football. And I think the potential development, going back to our previous discussion, of commercial funding, which is now available to Wrexham Football Club in a way that it wasn't until recently, gives very exciting possibilities for a public-private partnership in Wrexham. Despite the pandemic, the steering group still has been meeting, and the consultants Fourth Street have produced a business case, which is now under consideration by the steering group. We anticipate a spend of £75,000 of a total of £445,000 project planning grant this year, but we expect the majority of the spend to be happening in the next financial year. So that is definitely progressing.

Now, the national contemporary art gallery, of course, is something that I took a clear decision about. I didn't want to see a white box built in Cardiff; I wanted something that would involve communities and involve regions throughout Wales. And I have been continually in dialogue with my old friend whose work is on the wall up behind me here, Mary Lloyd Jones, who is a doyenne of the artists in Wales, and she was very determined and very concerned if there was any delay in moving forward with this. So, I'm pleased to say publicly that, following the conclusions of the initial feasibility study carried out in partnership between the arts council and Amgueddfa Cymru and the Rural Office for Architecture, ROA, which has been commissioned to carry out an initial high-level impact assessment for each of the venues that have come forward on the select list—. So, there's a total of 10 prospective locations for the contemporary art gallery, and more detailed work and a final report is due this month. In the meantime, the steering group has continued to work through the pandemic and we've seen some very exciting initiatives, especially under the banner of Celf ar y Cyd. And a total of £1.54 million has been committed to the project, with around £356,000 spent to date.

And, Minister, have you decided or has there been a recommendation yet of where the hub will be and whether that will involve any substantial capital investment?

Diolch. Just to confirm—so, £9 million is the figure for both projects. That's the capital budget we have in place for both projects, and that is earmarked in reserve at this stage. And as the Deputy Minister mentioned there, both projects are following a similar path. There are steering groups in place, guiding activities and guiding the preparatory work there. We are looking to enhance existing facilities, so not looking at any new facilities or distributed model for the contemporary art gallery.

So, we're at a stage where the preparatory work is very much in place; we've been working with consultants in developing business plans and a business case. So, once those plans and cases have been considered by the steering group, the group will then provide advice to the Minister on the final shape and the final proposal to be taken forward. So, we hope we'll be in a position to provide more detail on that after we've considered all the business cases.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Yes, first of all, Deputy Minister, in terms of the recently announced extra funding for the national library and the national museum, could you let the committee know in a little bit more detail than has currently been stated what that funding will be used for?

Yes, I'm very pleased that we were able to come to an agreement within Welsh Government—an agreement for the major institutions that we resource. On the library—and I had discussions only yesterday with the president, Meri Huws, and the chief executive, Pedr ap Llwyd—it's £0.5 million in the financial year 2020-21 for operating costs, enabling the library to implement the pay award on the same terms as the civil service and the contribution to pension costs. And I'm absolutely delighted that we have been able to provide equality of conditions of employment for the people who work in the library on the same basis as the Welsh civil service.

Then we have the tailored review, which you'll be familiar with, and the implementation of the recommendations. There is £0.75 million in the coming financial year for the implementation of the tailored review, and there is a further £1 million in the coming financial year to protect jobs and support operating costs. So, there will be no compulsory redundancies in the library. They are at the moment implementing a voluntary redundancy scheme, and I don't know the exact numbers that that will affect, but it means that the library has stability of funding. Did you want the national museum figures as well? 

Before we go on to the national museum, I wonder if you could tell committee whether that funding for the national library will enable all the recommendations of the recent review to be taken forward.

Well, that is the intention. The £750,000 supports the implementation of the recommendations, and there is a long equivalent of a remit letter that they have and which they've agreed to. So, the library has developed an action plan, and the action plan now combines their strategic thinking with the tailored review with the broader indications that my senior officials and I have put in their letter. The detailed costings have been worked out on the recommendations and, as I say, I met the library earlier this week and confirmed that the partnership will continue to make progress. So, I'm much relieved that we've been able to resolve that issue, and I'm very grateful to the finance Minister and colleagues in the Welsh Government and the First Minister for his support in ensuring this agreement. 

If we can move on, then, Deputy Minister, to the national museum and what the announced funding will do for the national museum.

Well, I'm very pleased that it's confirmed that the final budget for the national museum is significantly higher than in previous years: £6.7 million for 2021-22, which compares very favourably with the £4.2 million in 2020-21 and the £2.1 million in the previous financial year—get those figures right. So, the increased allocation of £6.7 million recognises the importance of the museum's buildings and the costs, of course, of maintaining traditional buildings like National Museum Cardiff within Amgueddfa Cymru. There is a master plan as part of that development, and I discussed that with them again earlier this week, and procurement for contractors to develop the master plan is imminent. The work hopefully with commence in April/May 2022, and there will be 10 years to complete that work, which will mean that the traditional building in Cathays Park will be very much in a fit state. But, in addition to that, of course, there is new investment, especially the investment in what is currently known as the slate museum, hopefully to be known in the future as amgueddfa'r gogledd, the museum of the north, to indicate its greater role. The ambition of the current director general, David Anderson, is that the museum of the north will be a suitable sister museum to the developments to improve the infrastructure in Cathays Park. I look forward to this investment in the north as well over the next financial years. 

Steffan Roberts.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I just wanted to share the revenue detail as well, just to complement the capital there from the Deputy Minister. So, in a similar way to the library, this was an announcement over two years. So, there's £1.45 million for this—for the current—year to support operating costs, including a pay award and a contribution to pension costs. For next year, it's £2.5 million to support operating costs. So, that complements the capital package, the £6.7 million mentioned by the Deputy Minister. Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Diolch.

Just in terms of the scale of the capital spend that's required, Deputy Minister, I think that we heard from the museum a figure of some £50 million for the backlog in repair and maintenance. As you mentioned, some of that spend will be necessary in terms of visitor facilities at the Cathays Park museum. We also heard from them that there are two buildings at St Fagans that are closed and likely to be permanently closed, given the state of the available capital to the museum. So, in terms of the scale of the challenge, how many years is it likely to take before we are likely to see the sort of progress that we would all want to see in terms of improving those facilities and making the necessary progress?

Again, as I replied earlier, I'm not trying to micromanage the museums' implementation of the funding made available to them. All that I can tell you is that my most recent discussion this week with the museum president, Roger Lewis, and with the director general and with the senior financial and planning staff of the museum—. They are more than implementing currently what was set out in the so-called Thurley review, by Simon Thurley, in 2017 and the recommendations that were made. What I cannot do is give you a figure of when the total capital required to refurbish the whole estate of the national museum will be completed. It'll certainly be well beyond what I can look at at the moment.

The problem that we have, as you know, with public funding, is that we work on an annual basis. It is essential, in my view—and I have said this internally, as well as saying it now to your committee, and it would be very helpful if you could look at this as a committee and perhaps make a recommendation—that, where there are institutions of this kind operating with a substantial capital programme for refurbishment to maintain the quality of the estate, public funds should be able to be distributed to them with a clear indicative basis, that there is an understanding and, of course, helpfully, cross-party support across the Assembly, so that there would be budget planning of capital investment over a longer period than the two years that I am able to do at the moment.

Yes, I was just going to add or raise the point that the Minister made at the end there, really. So, just a couple of points very quickly. So, the £6.7 million is probably the highest level, in terms of capital budget, it's been for many a year in terms of the museum, and that's part of the additional funding made at the final budget as part of the capital stimulus package that was announced recently. I think that's the main challenge there—yes, maintaining the estate across seven sites is a particular challenge, and the fact that we still operate within one-year budgets. The hope and the ambition is that there will be a comprehensive spending review, and, if we had a multi-year budget, then at least there's a longer outlook then in terms of how we can support the museum in managing that estate over a longer period.

Diolch. John Griffiths.

You mentioned the Thurley review, Deputy Minister, and one of the findings of that review was that:

'The Museum feels that it is not being listened to in terms of its funding requirements and that the Welsh Government is not clear about what a national museum is for.'

Now, that was three years ago. How would say matters have moved on in those terms since then?

Well, Welsh Government currently understands exactly what the role of a national museum is, and it's a joy to be working with them with the current enthusiasm in the leadership of the museum, and I hope that this will continue and develop for the future. National institutions—especially when they are managed as they are in Wales, in an internally devolved way—are key spaces for the public, visitors to Wales, and also as part of the education system, working with the national curriculum. The role of a national museum is to provide an image of the future of the country in relation to its material past, and I admire very much the curating skill of the current leadership of the museum and, indeed, the leadership of Roger Lewis himself. And I'm sure that this attitude will continue to thrive for the future.

Okay. One final question from me, then, and it's on historic place names. To what extent has the list of historic place names helped to provide necessary protection? And do we need further protection?

Well, the historic place names, of course, are maintained by another of my favourite nineteenth-century / early twentieth-century Welsh institutions, the royal commission. It's the royal commission that maintains this list. The list of historic place names of Wales has already worked to protect historic place names, and I'm grateful for the support of the local authorities, especially, if I can say, Ceredigion and Ynys Môn, which have been very successful in persuading applicants to retain historic place names. But I will give you an undertaking, to the extent that I can give undertakings at this late stage in a Parliament—we as a Government will continue to keep our policies for Welsh place names under review. We are considering whether there should be further options in the future and, if necessary, that could include legislation. But it's useful to note that what I read on the nation.cymru website recently—the article, I think, coincided with St David's Day—was that the number of people changing their house names into Welsh rather than English was of a ratio of 4:1.

So, in that sense, the current system is working, but, as I said to you, it's not for me to try to commit future Welsh Governments, but the option of legislation may well be returned to in the future, if it is seen to be required. But, as I say, the current system being operated by the comisiwn henebion on our behalf, by the royal commission, is working positively.

Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch. Gerwyn Evans.

Thank you. Yes. So, in terms of the action plan that the Deputy Minister referred to there, Helen Mary Jones, it hasn't been developed yet; we're planning to work on that. Obviously, the music sector has been the most impacted by COVID within the Creative Wales remit. We talked about the cultural recovery fund 2 earlier on in the meeting, so we will need to support the music sector through the cultural recovery fund 2, alongside working on opportunities as well. So, we'll be taking a two-track approach to supporting the music industry through the next year.

Can I thank the committee for the recent report into live music, which has helped me and helped the team engage with a lot more partners around how we need to take a music action plan forward? So, we've got a much better overall relationship with the arts council around the working relationship there, much better knowledge and understanding of what our colleagues in education are doing around music. So, while Creative Wales's remit will be around the commercial side of the music sector, there are a lot of positive conversations going on now about taking forward a number of the recommendations that came out of the live inquiry into music. So, really positive, I think, and, hopefully, through this year, we'll be developing the action plan, as the Minister alluded to there.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Only a brief one: I think that there is a great opportunity, if I could call it that, when we look at the action plan for music, to look at what's happening on the high street, to look at regeneration in towns and communities—not just music, the wider creative industries more generally. But, if you look at high streets across the length and breadth of Wales, which have been impacted by COVID, the impact on retail across the board, I do think there's a really strong role for the creative industries to play in the high street of the future. So, I think that's going to feature very much in the action plan as well.

Thank you. Before I turn to my next question, I should say that in the evidence that we've heard over the last year, in various different inquiries, witnesses have been very positive about Creative Wales, and, considering that it was a brand-new institution when the crisis hit and you weren't really set up to be dealing with a crisis or distributing funding or any of that, I think, as a committee, we heard some very positive things, and I think it's right, Chair, to put that on record again and to pass that on, really.

Gerwyn Evans.

Diolch—thank you, Deputy Minister. So, yes, it's a similar situation with screen as with music. So, we did plan to develop industry-led action plans when we launched back in January last year and, obviously, with COVID, we were unable to do that, but we did bring together the engagement groups, which have been very, very useful and very helpful to us working through the pandemic and supporting our cultural recovery fund, design et cetera. And that's been hugely welcomed, the engagement from the sector.

But in terms of screen, it's been pretty successful actually over the last year, even through COVID. So, the sector went back to work pretty early with the guidance that we provided, working with colleagues across the UK to get the sector back as quickly as we could. War of the Worlds filming in Newport was the first high-end drama to be back in production in the whole of the UK, and that was following an investment from the Welsh Government. So, it's a hugely positive story on screen, which has been building up for a number of years.

And I think it's fair to say that we're now trying to take a balanced portfolio approach to our investments. So, it's great that we've got Lucasfilm coming in, and as the Deputy Minister said, they're starting to shoot very shortly, but we want to take a balanced approach because we want to support that thriving indigenous production company structure, and we've run a development funding programme through COVID for them this year, and we'll be doing that again next year. So, we want to provide support at all levels of the screen sector, ensuring that we provide support in Cardiff but outside of Cardiff as well. There's a report due to come out next week from our partners who run Clwstwr through Cardiff University showing that the growth in Cardiff over the past decade has been phenomenal; we need to now try and replicate some of that growth in other parts of Wales. So, there's definitely—. It's an industry-led action plan that we're looking to create this year, and there are definitely opportunities for us to grow the sector, both in the south-east, but around the rest of Wales as well, working much more closely with the public sector broadcasters, aligning all our development funding, so that—. We've have some good success stories of some of our indigenous production companies having small amounts of money picking up 30-series shows on Channel 4, as an example, very recently. So, it's about having that balanced portfolio where we invest, it's not just the big productions that we want to be seen to be investing in.

Helen.

Thank you. My last question is quite a specific one, and this may be, Deputy Minister, that you might want to turn to officials for this, because there are matters of detail. Can you tell us how the agreement with Great Point Media to lease and manage the Seren Stiwdios differs from the arrangement that was previously in place with Pinewood?

Yes, the agreement with Pinewood came to an end on 31 March 2020, and the relationship that we have now with Seren Stiwdios is entirely different. There's a 10-year lease agreement on market terms with an option to acquire and expand. Great Point pay Welsh Government to lease the facility in its entirety, and will seek to bring productions into Wales through their access to a global network of industry contacts. I have met with them and I'm delighted at this new and positive relationship, although, of course, having said that, the name Pinewood was useful in its time, but it's clear to me that this arrangement is much better for the future. 

Thank you.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Thank you. I think I would summarise it as the previous arrangement with Pinewood was complicated, and certainly you as a committee and Public Accounts Committee—my predecessor has been here several times discussing Pinewood. We've learnt lessons from the arrangement there, and we're all, hopefully, ready to move on now. We've got a great relationship with Great Point, they're a fantastic team with an amazing track record globally, and the opportunities that they present, going forward, are really significant. They're a really great company to work with. So, the new arrangement is very simple. It's a fairly standard lease arrangement with them that just everybody will be able to scrutinise and understand, and it gives us a really good platform to develop other opportunities, and we are really keen on doing that. 

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

I just wanted to ask a supplementary to Gerwyn Evans based on your answer to Helen Mary Jones on the indigenous sector, and I just wanted to understand: does that mean that you will be looking to develop different strategies, per se, for large-scale operations that may attract international commercial companies, to that of the Welsh scene, and the Welsh language scene, for that matter, as we noted in our report? I just wanted to try and understand what your thinking was in that regard.

Thank you, Chair. It's trying to, as I say, get that balance across what we're investing in. So, we will be working with our screen working group to draft the action plan, but we've obviously been very successful at high-end drama over the last few years. I think there's an opportunity to do more on the factual stuff. There's definitely an opportunity to work with S4C more around some Welsh language productions. So, we will be developing MoUs—memorandums of understanding with each of the PSBs in Wales, and they'll all be around opportunities aligning those development funds, but also taking some of our production companies to the next level, as well, so investing in them to bring in work with bigger productions, so really supporting the grass roots in a way that helps them grow, but, at the same time, if there's an opportunity like Lucasfilm that comes along and we think it's right, at the right time of the year in terms of crew availability, et cetera, we'll take that as an opportunity. But very much the focus will be on supporting the indigenous grass-roots sector and growing and developing them.

Okay, thank you. Naturally, we'll probably have more questions. We took a lot of time doing work on film and television over the years, but we are pressed for time, but it's something—

Chair, can I just say one more thing? Apologies. Obviously, we've got our engagement event next Thursday, which I think yourself and committee members have been invited to. So, that will just set out the first year of Creative Wales and what we're looking to do next year, as well. So, I'm sure you'll have more questions from that event next week, so maybe we could reconvene after that.

Well, maybe so, but whether the timetables allow us with elections running closer to us is another question altogether.

Thank you. Just a few questions, Minister, around the creative industries and around music. One of the issues that we've been exploring on a very practical basis is the availability of facilities, and particularly the availability of quality studio space, which really goes to the core of production and capacity. I was really just wondering about what the Welsh Government's specific plans are, bearing in mind how important this is to the sector, and I know you've commented on this in the past, saying you want to expand it. I wonder, perhaps, if you could just update us on where we are on those thoughts and on those plans.

Well, obviously, capacity of studio space is essential for the development of all kinds of artistic activities, and there's a huge demand across the globe for new content. So, we are continuing to explore options. I can't, at the moment, give you any further information, but I'll turn to Gerwyn again, because, obviously, Creative Wales is very much involved with this activity, if he can indicate any further developments. Gerwyn.

Diolch.

Diolch, Chair. Thank you, Deputy Minister. Yes, there is a huge opportunity for the development of studio space, not just in Wales, in the UK. It's a bit of a competitive position at the moment. As everyone will know, in lockdown, everybody has watched most of the shows on Netflix et cetera, so there's a huge drive for new content across the globe at the moment. We've got some active discussions around the expansion of studios in Wales, but again I don't want it just to be south-east focused; we've got conversations happening in north Wales and potentially down in south-west Wales as well about smaller, bespoke facilities, so we increase the impact further than the south-east region. But there's definitely an opportunity and a market need for new studio space in Wales, and we're in active conversations about a number of opportunities at the moment because if we don't, they will be building them elsewhere in the UK and we'll lose that opportunity to keep the growth. 

If I can, perhaps, follow on from what you've said, obviously, within the next Senedd, this is an area that we really are going to want to focus on and explore, because it goes to the core, doesn't it, of the regeneration of parts of our industry. Will it be the intention to try to set out some sort of strategy or plan or update? How will you proceed when we start, say, the next Senedd, so that we can actually start exploring and looking at this issue and the support and how it is working, and so on?

Absolutely, yes, there's definitely an ambition, as I said, to grow our studio infrastructure in Wales. We're working with our partners in the British Film Commission, the BFC, if you're aware of that organisation. They've just been awarded £5 million from the UK Government to look at the supply and demand issues around studios across the UK. They've also got some money to help developers with feasibility reporting, planning, et cetera, so we're working with them to ensure as much of that £5 million is spent in Wales at the moment. And, as I say, we're actively looking at a number of opportunities at the moment, and we don't want just opportunities in the south-east. But we have to move quickly on this as well. This opportunity, I think, probably has a window of the next two years, because there will be so many developments that the supply and demand issue will have gone away. So, we need to move pretty quickly in Wales to make sure that we get the right studio infrastructure quickly. 

As a quick example, I don't know if you're aware of the Strength in Places bid being led by Cardiff University at the moment, which is due for a decision next month. Within that, we've encouraged Great Point Media to be a part of that bid, and if it's successful, money will be awarded to them to develop a virtual production facility at the Great Point Media Seren Stiwdios, because that's where it's moving. We need not just to build empty warehouses where they can film anymore, we have to have certain unique selling points. So, we're looking at what USPs Wales can have within any new studio development, because we don't want just to be competing with all the investments that are happening around the UK; we want to give Wales a number of USPs, and virtual production is where it's at. I don't know if anyone has watched The Mandalorian over lockdown. That was $15 million per episode, all shot virtually. So, we need to be in that space, that whatever we invest in is futureproofed for what the industry needs for the next 10, 15 years. So, definitely, we'll come back with an idea of how we can deliver that in Wales. 

I think some of us will look forward to exploring that in the not-too-distant future. If I can go back to the Minister, and just go on to another area, then, which is in terms of support for journalism. Of course, we've explored this very complex area in terms of the independence of the media but also the role it plays, its importance within our democratic institutions and in Welsh life. And you have indicated in the past, or more recently, that the Government was looking at the idea of how it might support, for example, English language news journalism, possibly the issue of some form of funding. I wonder if you're able to bring any form of update to us on that again. I know this is an area we'll obviously want to explore in future months, but just where we are at the moment. 

Well, I'm pleased to say that discussions at the highest level between Ministers have, in fact, taken place on this very issue, and I will indicate my preference, which is part of the options being discussed, is for something on the Golwg model for the Welsh language. I've always felt that it was not appropriate that there was—because I look at Wales as an officially bilingual country, and therefore we should be funding equally. And the need for effective English language journalism in Wales stands alongside the need for similar provision in the Welsh language. I think the Golwg model, where the Welsh Books Council are the arm's-length body, independent funders, ensures the funding is properly distributed. I would like to see a similar system made available for English language news journalism. There have been discussions, as you must be aware, with the Senedd Commission, on whether they would be interested in supporting or in housing an opportunity for better reportage—I might as well say that—of what goes on in our democratic activities in the Senedd, because that is an important part of our democracy. So, I am optimistic—I'm certain—that this issue is to be taken forward, on whichever model is to be preferred. The important thing here is that we have an arm's-length relationship. Offers have been made by some of the commercial reporting organisations, but I would prefer this to have a public sector distribution mechanism to enable independence from either commercial pressures or, indeed, God forbid, political pressures.

I think we're really looking forward to exploring that in the future, because I think that is a very, very important and quite exciting initiative.

Because of time, if I can move on to the final area I just wanted to talk about. We've obviously had quite a lot of quite detailed and complex discussions around the issue of broadcasting policy, and we're aware of many of the conundrums and some of the conflicts and contradictions that exist within that whole area at the moment, and, of course, we've been preparing our own report. But I'm just wondering in terms of broadcasting policy what your current thinking is, what you think have been the main areas of change that you've been able to initiate, really, over the past few years within this particular area, particularly, I suppose, in terms of increasing the Welsh voice, the Welsh influence within broadcasting policy.

The position of the Welsh Government, and, indeed, my own position, remains that it wouldn't be appropriate to devolve one aspect of broadcasting away from other cultural activities, and, indeed, the whole plethora of broadcasting platforms that currently exist. That is still our position. But during the time I've been working at this job, I am increasingly aware of the importance of having good Welsh representation at the UK level. We have now a memorandum of understanding with Ofcom and the UK Government on the appointment of an Ofcom board member; we are currently exploring ways of strengthening that memorandum of understanding. And Creative Wales here again provides an opportunity for four-nation working. One thing I have learnt from doing this work is the importance of four-nation working, and I'm grateful to my English colleague at the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, Nigel Huddleston, for his strong support to four-nations working. The First Minister, of course, operates a similar relationship now, fairly consistently, with the First Ministers of Northern Ireland and Scotland and with senior Ministers in the UK Cabinet, because England doesn't yet have proper devolution.

We look forward to that development and we'll undoubtedly explore that in the next Senedd. That brings my questions to an end, Chair.