Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Bore da, bawb. I'm Jason Thomas, I'm director of culture, sport and tourism.

Bore da, bawb. I'm the senior financial planning and budget manager within the economy, skills and natural resources group, supporting culture and heritage.

Would you like to add something to that, Jason?

Thanks, Jason. 

Diolch, Weinidog. So, in terms of the actual amounts, we received the £59 million Barnett consequential, and we actually put more—

Sixty four. 

—Welsh Government money into that, so it came to £64 million. Essentially, all of that money—. There is still a small number of projects that we are still appraising, but it's very small. We've effectively allocated the funding to all those projects, and the money's going out of the door and has been going out of the door for a number of weeks now. So, as the Deputy Minister says, there will always be some applicants who apply and are unsuccessful. But, very largely speaking, we've had really positive feedback on the process and the way in which it's been run. So, what we are doing—

Will you do an analysis of it though, so that we can at least understand its— 

Not yet. I'm not going to spend any time on policy analysis or performance analysis while we're still in the middle of this crisis, quite honestly. 

Yes, but for some of the organisations who may have been rejected, they might want to understand how they can improve any sort of criteria for the future. 

Well, yes, but then all they need to do is approach us. Well, they are approaching us, and we've had these discussions and we still have them. But it's not about—. Let's be quite clear. The amount of time and energy that's being used by my officials, colleagues, in ensuring that this funding gets out as quickly as possible and as fairly as possible, has been amazing, and I think it's appropriate for me to say that publicly. Sorry, Jason.  

Jason, just quickly. 

Yes, very quickly, just to add. So, we've obviously built in detailed evaluation into the cultural recovery fund. So, as we are approaching—. We are approaching the last appraisal decisions now. We're going out to tender, in the next couple of days, to evaluate that product, and that will inform, then, the discussions around the CRF potential, too, as the Deputy Minister alludes to there. 

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Deputy Minister, obviously Wales will have to come through beyond this pandemic and rebuild all aspects, really, of life in Wales to some extent. What role would you see for the culture Secretary in that rebuilding process, beyond the pandemic, and if culture is to play the role it should, would that require significant extra funding?

Culture is already giving people hope in this very difficult situation and I'm not talking at an abstract level there. People are missing, as they are with sporting events as well obviously, that participation in cultural activity and in sporting activity and it gives people hope of a return. But it's got to be a safe return and that's why I continually emphasise that it is our public health advisers in Wales, and indeed at the UK level—and again I want to say how marvellous it has been to see the four chief medical officers of health and the senior officials across all the health departments in the UK working together so effectively, and that is essential as we get through this.

And obviously, the role of culture in a return—but I wouldn't use the word 'return', because we can't get back to where we were, because we will have to live with a possibility of a resurgence of a pandemic for many years, and this is something that people don't like to talk about. But if you look at history—and I do know something about the social history of disease in different societies in the past—this is a plague. If it was in the medieval period, we'd describe it as a plague and its effect on society is the effect of a plague. And, therefore, there can be no simple going back; we have to plan carefully and every decision about moving beyond where we are now in terms of lockdown and restriction has to be undertaken absolutely on the public health advice that we get, and there should be no pretence that it's otherwise.

But in taking a longer term view, Deputy Minister, which we have to do, and Jeremy Miles is looking at building back better, as it's described, isn't he, across the piece for Welsh Government and obviously all departments would have a role in that, including culture. In looking at that future, are you considering the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015? Is that informing your approach in looking ahead?

Of course. The well-being of future generations is a central part of our constitution as a Welsh democracy and obviously, everything that we do has to be informed by consideration of well-being and that is why we are so concerned about the impact of a lack of opportunity. But it's not just about—. Culture is a way in which people interrelate. That's what culture really is about—it's about people relating to one another. And because people are unable to physically relate to one another, because of the public health situation, that is particularly painful and people are aware of that. And so, I think we have to always talk about well-being and what will be possible.

But of course, it is the very restrictions and the very difficult situation we're now in that will lead us to a situation where we can share with each other—join with each other in cultural life again, and in sporting life again, and so, the prize there is huge. But the prize is, basically, sticking by the regulations, and there is no way out of that; there are no shortcuts to that. This is why I despair at seeing people who have not been prepared to abide by the regulations, because they prevent the rest of us from going on to a situation where we can live with a pandemic at a level where, hopefully, it is more contained than it is now. But I'm not optimistic about that happening in the short term, and I don't think we should pretend that that would be the case, and not talk about dates and not talk about times when things will change, because there's nothing more debilitating than having a target. People complain to me, 'Why haven't you got targets?' The reason we haven't got targets is because we do not know. We literally do not know how a virus behaves, and that's been proved already by the research that we've had.

Sorry, John, David Melding wants to come in with a supplementary. Is that okay?

Yes.

David.

Thank you, Chair. I think this is a very interesting answer, and I commend the Minister for looking at the future generations' well-being Act and applying it in a very strategic way to the likely demands on the budget in the years to come. I just wonder if you and your department are thinking in terms of what sort of business models, for certainly our larger cultural organisations, will be, given that audience numbers, presumably, will be very limited compared to what they've been in the past, given some of the public health implications that you've been outlining. And I do think you're prescient; I'm not quite sure that our society has fully grasped this point yet, that we will not be returning to normal.

Well, I'm pleased to say that the arm's-length bodies that work with us, and I will mention, obviously, Sport Wales and the arts council in the same breath because they are, for me, equally important in what they do, and they are thinking very creatively. There are people thinking well beyond blue-sky thinking—it is really very encouraging to talk to them, even in this situation, and they will be producing the kind of advice that we need and my successor in this position will need for the future. But that is months and years down the road. But, as you emphasised, it's important to think positively, otherwise people will get depressed.

John Griffiths.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Turning to Brexit, Deputy Minister, and the impact of Brexit on the culture sector, have resources been allocated in the draft budget to address that impact?

Yes, certainly. Part of the resources that we have, in terms of our future planning, is to ensure particularly that groups and cultural activity that used to rely heavily on international performance and they're not able to do so—they're not able to do so now because it's a combination of Brexit and the pandemic—that there is a way of ensuring that the activity that they have undertaken, a lot of it benefiting from international inspirations and co-production and co-performance and so on, that all that is still there, and that the practitioners are able to find different ways of practising and continuing their craft and their skills in a way that is within the public health limits, and that's what we've been struggling to do. So, I'm really relating the Brexit situation with the pandemic situation, because they're both, in my book, equally negative towards the development of cultural activity. I don't know whether Jason would like to bring me back to the ground on that.

No, I don't need to do that, Deputy Minister. I think the important thing to consider here, thinking back to the question there, is: has specific money been allocated to Brexit? Our role is to provide funding and guidance to enable organisations that we support to thrive, and that goes across everything that they're responsible for. And, obviously, Brexit, like COVID, is a very significant challenge that's facing organisations, particularly at the moment, into next year and into the future. So, it's not as if there's a specific budget for Brexit necessarily; what we do is we provide funding in the round to support that organisation and the—[Inaudible.] Wales Arts International that's supported by the Arts Council of Wales, clearly, there's a massive impact there, because of the nature of the people who they support. So, they are likely to need a higher level of intervention than other organisations that won't. So, it's just important to put on record that we look at everything in the round, not just specifically for one thing.

Okay. Oh, I think Jo wanted to come in at this point.

[Inaudible.]—to say that, during the preparations, we've also been guided by the COVID reconstruction priorities outlined. So, just to give you some examples of that and budget provision, the creative industries are obviously very important, in terms of employment and the labour market, for a more prosperous Wales. The creative sector's a very important sector and one of the pillars of the international strategy, with annual turnover of £2.2 billion, so, obviously, that will make a significant impact and is one of the considerations that we had when we were preparing the budget. There are other considerations—town centres, more locally, where we've protected budget, for example—and the transformational capital grant; this recognises that museums, archives and libraries are a focal point for our communities and address some of the impacts of poverty, health and well-being for the long term.

Okay, thanks for that. In terms of the sector working in the European Union now post Brexit and the different layers of bureaucracy that that would involve now, is there a central point of contact that's available to help organisations navigate their way through that?

Well, we obviously have been encouraging people to retain their bilateral and multilateral relations. I'm not clear in my mind what the UK Government is pretending to do or trying to do to replicate a UK fund that replaces the European funding, and I've not been convinced that this is functional. But, of course, the jury is out, as it were; we'll see what they will produce. I know Jason's been involved, as other officials have, in discussions about this, but what we're doing—we are working very closely with our Scottish colleagues, bless them; our Northern Ireland colleagues, of course, are working as if they were a united Ireland, if I can use that expression, already, because of this crisis. But it's important for us always to be working alongside our Scottish colleagues in relation to international and what used to be European Union activity. Jason, do you want to comment on that?

Thanks, Deputy Minister. So, yes, I totally agree with everything the Deputy Minister said there. In terms of the single point of contact, we've got our Business Wales helpline. So, that is a single point of contact for all organisations across Wales. So, they are there to provide one-to-one support for businesses. There's a whole stack of information on the website that helps business and organisations to get ready and equipped for dealing with Brexit. So, 'yes', is the simple answer to the question, and we can provide a link to all of that, but I'm sure you're all aware of that anyway.

Okay. Final question from me, then: in terms of lost EU funding, you were saying, Deputy Minister, that there's some perhaps confusion in terms of what UK Government may be doing. Is there anything extra that Welsh Government might do to help mitigate the loss of European funding to the culture sector, or is it a matter of waiting to see what the UK Government come forward with?

Well, quite frankly, I'm not keen to spend Welsh Government resources on what was previously European Union funding. I believe very firmly that the people who brought us here—and, obviously, I make no apology for always having been a European in my attitude; I'm inspired both by Saunders Lewis and Raymond Williams, and will never stop being inspired by those characters, as well as, obviously, other actual Europeans. I won't mention Jean-Paul Sartre this morning, but we have a heritage, a cultural heritage, in Wales, which is internationalist, and therefore it's very important to keep that alive, and nothing can prevent us from doing that.

And I've been very, very supportive of everything we can do on the Erasmus+ programme, and we are discussing, very seriously at the moment, as Ministers in the Welsh Government, how we can help to ensure that this activity continues. Now, that will depend partly on UK funding; it will have to depend on some funding that we generate or some funding that institutions in Wales are prepared to pay for to subscribe for services that they will want to continue. That would be my priority now: to look at how we can make the Erasmus programme, especially, still available for our young, clever students, because we are all young and clever Europeans, as well as world citizens, as well as Welsh citizens. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I want to talk about two things, effectively: the National Museum Wales and the National Library of Wales. Starting off with the national museum, has the national museum appointed a commercial director?

No, but what they've done, with my strong encouragement, is that they've reorganised their senior management team, so that the commercial activity is much more mainstreamed. The proposal for appointing a commercial director did come out of the Thurley review, and what they've done, with our strong agreement, as I said, is to implement that more corporately across the organisation, so that its priorities are much more clearly related to its activity in the private sector and the third sector and its outside partnership activity. It is probably easier for the national museum to be seen as an outside partner because of this, because it's got seven institutional bases. And I think, when we come to develop the museum of the north, as the director general and myself like to call it, because it sounds grander than just a slate museum in the north—it's much more than just slate—when we come to develop that, that will be very much a development that will happen in partnership with the private sector, because it can't happen otherwise. 

Just the one comment: why don't you call it the museum of the ancient kingdom of Gwynedd? [Laughter.] 

We don't do ancient; we're doing the future. The north is also the future.

I could go into a long discussion about this, with some other things. But the other point I would make is: are you sure you've got the capability to fulfil the role that would be taken on by a commercial director within the organisation? If you had it, why wasn't it done before?

Well, it's not for me to say what happened before, but, certainly, in my very close relationship and friendship, which I very much appreciate, and cultural advice that I get from the current director general and his colleagues, there are people there whose skills, perhaps, were not—in the senior management now—whose commercial skills and their skills in running a public sector institution for the twenty-first century weren't always appreciated in the past, but they're certainly appreciated by this Minister and this Government. Jason, do you want to say something on that?

Jason Thomas.

Please. So, obviously, things have moved on from the Thurley review in 2017, and just one thing that I would draw out in response to the question would be the appointment of Roger Lewis as the chair of the museum over that time frame. Roger, as many of you will know, has got a very, very strong commercial background himself, so he's brought, right at the helm of the organisation, commercial acumen, and that's completely changed the landscape in the museum. So, I just wanted to put that on the record too, and our appreciation for the work that Roger has done in his time there.

And turning to the national library, how can the implementation of the tailored review into the national library be implemented without additional funding? And how much of that additional funding do you think will come from being generated from non-Government sources?

It's very difficult for the national library to obtain funding from non-Government sources, but, of course, what the national library can do more of, and what I would encourage them to do, is to become a more active senior partner of the library services in Wales generally. It's always been my ambition that the national library should be seen as the apex of the pyramid, if a pyramid has an apex, of the cultural activity that occurs. I think if we have a much better regional partnership between the national library and the other libraries within local authorities, university libraries, community libraries that we have in Wales—there's a lot of energy there and the way in which libraries generally are now used as very active, proactive community centres hasn't quite yet touched the national library in the way that I might like to see. But they are very keen now on looking outside and, the present management of the national library and ourselves, we've been working together on a strategy, and we are expecting a further document from them when they've developed their plans further. Jason, perhaps you'd like to confirm that.

Yes, thanks, Deputy Minister. There are a couple of things within this, I guess. So, obviously, the committee is looking at the tailored review separately. We've been in front of the committee talking about that, I think, just before Christmas. One thing that I'd draw out would be—or two things—so, the tailored review itself, obviously, as Mr Hedges refers to there, says that significant additional funding is required for the library to be able to thrive. Clearly, we are in very difficult times, and, as you'll have seen from our evidence to you, the budget allocations that we're making for next year are still challenging. We are really, I guess, pleased to be able to maintain budgets at this year's level, but that does not go as far as the tailored review report says that we should go. But those are the times that we're in, and, unfortunately, this is across the board for our portfolio as we head into next year, when we're coming through a pandemic. All of us—internally and externally, the organisations that we support—have got really difficult decisions to make in terms of where priorities are. So, we will continue to work really closely with the national library to see where efficiencies can be made, where they can try and come in on the budget that we set out for them, but it is extremely challenging.

Just finally, to the Deputy Minister's points about wider integration with the library community, that's obviously something we are going to work closely with them on, and the same goes for the national museum and their role with local museums. We see how it works with Sport Wales and the Arts Council of Wales, where they have a federated model, where they support all those other organisations, so it's just something that we're looking at and are really interested in exploring further in the years to come.

I'd just like to add to that that we do look at our three great national institutions, the national library, the national museum and the national botanic garden, which is very, very dear to my heart, because it's based in the county of my birth in Carmarthenshire—it's important to realise that those national institutions have a proper national remit, and that they can find ways of delivering it. I would say the national botanic garden, which is why I mentioned them, is a very good example of how it's possible for a national institution, based in west Wales, to be able to have a very strong partnership with all sorts of communities and regional institutions and companies throughout Wales, and that's the model for every national institution. National institutions should not be seen as centralised institutions on a national basis; they should be seen as diverse and delegating institutions.

And finally—. Oh, I think Jo wants to come in.

Yes. If I may come in and add to the comments by the Minister and Jason, the capital allocation is also very important for the library. It is a one-year allocation, and, obviously, the library has worked very closely with us to set out their capital priorities for the next five years. This will include their aspirations for transforming the facilities on offer to visitors and families, some of those recommendations in the tailored review in terms of long-term protection of the building, promoting the digital collection strategy; this funding will go some way to addressing some of the efficient solutions for carbon footprint and may have some long-term efficiencies as well.

Well, the digital collection, obviously, is a key to the treasures of the library being able to be communicated worldwide, and that's a marvellous development. 

And finally from me, any update on your capital programme? I know everybody's capital programme in the last 12 months has been affected by external events. Any update on your capital programme and plans for next year—the next financial year?

Jason.

Thanks, Deputy Minister. If I talk to Cadw, which is the area I've got accounting officer responsibility for, construction can progress even within the current tier 4 restrictions. It is challenging and obviously there are impacts across the board as a result of the pandemic, but we do envisage that our key projects—and there's a multitude of projects across Cadw, but if I just talk briefly about the key ones—Caernarfon, Tretower and Caerphilly, where there is significant allocation next to them, we do envisage that work will be able to progress. We've made these budget allocations on the basis that work can happen. And clearly we will review everything, as we always do, and if things slip, things will slip. But as things currently stand, the allocations that we've set out in the evidence to you, we do believe we will be able to spend that money and continue the progress on those projects. And I think that does go across the board for the other institutions that have applied to us for capital funding. We're obviously acutely aware of the situation and we will continue to review it, but as things stand, as we speak to you today, we do believe that the capital investment programmes as set out will continue. 

Thank you. 

Jason, do you want to say something further about Creative Wales?

Yes, just if you could say perhaps where the £7 million has been spent, that would be helpful.

Thanks, Chair. I think it's just important to say that the £7 million, not to confuse—perhaps it's come across as £7 million to be invested in the brand. It's not that; it's £7 million to be invested in developing the priorities of Creative Wales. That's the thing, then.

Just a couple of things I would draw out, following on from the Deputy Minister's points. We are still to go through the detailed allocations of the £7 million for Creative Wales next year. We've obviously got a new board; they're working with Gerwyn, as the Deputy Minister said, on the detail for the plans for next year, but it is quite likely that a proportion of that money will go towards media investment and go towards productions. To date—we can give you a note on this—but broadly speaking, we've invested in the region of £30 million into creative productions, and we believe that that's generated a spend in Wales in the region of £365 million, so a 12:1 return. It is across all the sectors, and in these bleak times, where we are having to deliver bad news on a regular basis, the creative industries is one area where we do see a lot of optimism. There is still stuff that's going on that is having an impact in a really positive way. So, we do think we want to build on that in the years to come under Gerwyn's leadership and the new board there.

So, effectively, you're saying that the money there will take the place of the media investment budget of previous. Can you just tell us, therefore, how you will learn from some of the issues that emanated from that budget? Obviously, Jason, I think you've said that it wasn't just about what you accrue from that budget, but about the projects that come from it, but obviously you made some losses from that budget. What do you hope to change now, with this new funding that you may not have done with the past one?

Can I just say about the structure? The structure is totally different to what went on before. It was all ad hoc, if I may say so, paying out of Government funds for media activity. When we established Creative Wales, we established an arm's-length body within Government on the same model as Cadw, as it happens. We saw that that worked, and this is all down to Jason when he was at Cadw, who created that new kind of animal, not a quango, not entirely at arm's length from Government, but of course having the authority of its own budget. This is why I'm loathe to say how Creative Wales should spend its budget, because clearly that is a matter for the chair and the board, and that's how I want to see them operating. It's part of the new way of operating, giving people autonomy, cultural autonomy in the way they operate. I'll hand back to Jason. Sorry to interrupt.

I'll keep it brief, Chair, because I can see that you're pressed for time. So, I think it's also important to say that not only are we learning lessons from numerous appearances in front of the committee to do with the media investment fund, numerous audit reports; Public Accounts Committee have gone over the work of the creative industries for a number of years now, and as officials reporting to the Minister, we are duty bound to learn the lessons from those. I think, broadly speaking, everybody says you can make a mistake, but if you make the same mistake twice, then there's a problem there. But I think that the creative industries, these have been growing in Wales for a long time now, and it goes back to—. You can certainly trace it back to the economic renewal plan from 2009-10 in previous Governments, where the creative sector was prioritised. This has not grown overnight; this has grown by dedication, by support, prioritisation, over at least 10 to 12 years now, and many, many people, certainly predecessors of mine, have been involved in all of that. We've built up organisational knowledge on what works and what doesn't work, but I think I should just end by saying that this is an industry that is built on risk, and we're never going to get it entirely right. We will always fund productions that will go wrong, and we will always fund productions that go incredibly right. Over time, we just hope that we get more right than we get wrong. But also, we don't want to create a culture where the officials and the sector take a zero-risk approach, because then nothing will happen, and then we wouldn't see amazing productions like The Pembrokeshire Murders or His Dark Materials or Industry, which was filmed in Wales, which some people might not know. There is so much incredible stuff going on at the moment and it's all been there as a consequence of taking some risk.

Including a lot of use of the old Pinewood building, which I was always criticised about. If we didn't have that building, it wouldn't have been possible to organise the level of production that we've been able to do, or that companies have been able to do. I just thought I'd get that in. And long live Bad Wolf as well, to mention some other companies.

Hopefully a future successor committee can look at and scrutinise the success of Creative Wales.

I am right in that, aren't I, Jason? I think I'm right in that.

Jason.

That's right, Deputy Minister. I think it's similar to the last line of questioning around how we're going to use funding: nothing has been decided in detail below the headline budgets for next year. But we're obviously aware, across the board, really, of the significant pressures that there are on media journalism at the moment, and what we've seen, as I'm sure you'd all agree, is that in the middle of a pandemic, the more accurate, robust and thorough Welsh journalism that we have to report on Wales, the better. So, we do see that there's a role for us in terms of engaging with all of that, but this is a complicated area and people will have different views on Government intervention in journalism.

Just to emphasise what Jason has said, I'm a strong supporter of the arm's-length principle, and there is no more important area for arm's length than media, and autonomy for media is almost more important than creative autonomy. I never thought I'd say that, but I believe that to be the case now, in the present situation we're in.

I don't know, Jo, if you would like to add some detail on that.

Yes, just briefly, because I know Jack has more questions.

Okay, sorry.

[Inaudible.]—the Deputy Minister's comment, that there is funding available for the developments, currently there's £9 million left in central reserves from the Plaid Cymru agreement.

Yes. It's very important to implement agreements with Plaid Cymru.

Of course. [Laughter.] I've asked this question continuously for that reason.

I've been waiting to say that to you. Lovely to see you back, by the way. [Laughter.]

Well, I look forward to that development, and it's down as a legacy, hopefully. 

For both of us.

For both of us, yes. Teamwork, Dafydd. I'll move on to Jack Sargeant finally. Diolch.

Diolch, Chair, and it is wonderful to see you back in the chair of this committee and your fine leadership, as always. It's like you haven't been away. I'll say that there. 

Oh, Jack.

It was pleasing to hear comments back to you earlier from Jason with regard to learning from mistakes. I think there's an element in politics in general, and in Governments and the public sector, where we do need to recognise and rectify a little bit more and, with my industry hat on, carry out some root-cause analysis to make sure those mistakes don't happen again. So, that was pleasing to hear this morning. 

Just moving on to historic environment and Cadw, really, Jason, you mentioned earlier in response to Mike Hedges about capital investment, that you envisage key projects can go ahead, but I don't want to press too much more on that now because I appreciate the time. Perhaps you could compile a list of what projects are going ahead, or planned to go ahead, for the committee to have a further look at. Now, I appreciate that is fluid given the current situation we're in, but I think it is useful information. 

Deputy Minister, you, too, mentioned on Cadw that the visitor income has essentially disappeared, and we all recognise that and understand why. But is the 8 per cent increase in cash terms in Cadw's revenue budget sufficient enough to compensate for this clearly massive decrease in commercial revenue?

No, I don't think it could be, but I'll ask Jason to comment on that in greater detail. What we have been seeking to maintain is the membership of Cadw, and I'm pleased to say—I speak as a member of Cadw myself—membership is still active. Etifeddiaeth y Cymry, the heritage magazine, describes exactly what Cadw is still doing in the middle of this crisis. And I would like to pay tribute to Gwilym Hughes's leadership of Cadw, because he's obviously deeply experienced in the heritage sector, and he has the authority to continue to inspire that sector for the future. Jason, would you like to say something more on that? 

Thanks, Deputy Minister. I think I can answer both of them together, actually, because the 8 per cent that Mr Sargeant refers to there is actually—. That's in the budget for non-cash depreciation to do with the capital investment projects. It's not a revenue uplift as such—it's an accounting treatment, basically, which Jo can speak about with far more expertise than me. What we will do—if the Deputy Minister is content, certainly—is we will provide you with a list of the capital investment projects for Cadw over the next year. We've got a list that goes further than that because, obviously, we have to plan further in terms of the historic environment. So, we can do that. But yes, that 8 per cent is there in terms of non-cash depreciation. 

Finishing the building of Caernarfon castle is the most important one for me to show what a stupid man Edward I was, not even being able to finish his own castle. [Laughter.] 

Thank you for that. If you could just comment further, if we have time, on what activity, then, you think will be restricted on these sites, obviously, with the shortage of funding. Just to move on as well, because I have got one final question on a different area and I am conscious of time, clearly, the pandemic has impacted on a lot of industry, and this has impacted again on the publishing industry in Wales. Is the Books Council of Wales sufficiently resourced to manage the impact of the pandemic?

We have regular and separate discussions with the Welsh books council because, obviously, it's been a strong interest of mine because of my interest in literature. I am very confident in the ability of the Welsh books council not only to support the publication activity, but also to be an exemplar of a public service support model for publishing. The publishing industry in Wales is a very striking example of a managed market where the public sector has been key to the ability to produce—especially in literature and historical texts and other texts, of course, in both languages—material that is of a high scholarly standard and a high publication quality. As I say, the Welsh books council is continuing to do that. But I think there is a case, and I'm sure that this is something that can be discussed now within Creative Wales, where the cyngor llyfrau now sits, to see whether there are economies of scale, but also whether the good practice of the books council may be extended to other aspects of publication, because publication is not just about publishing books, and I'm sure that the activity of the books council will benefit the rest of Creative Wales. I don't know, Jason, whether you'd like to say something further. I think I know you would.

Two quick points. One, I'd draw out the impact of the £750,000 capital investment we've put into the books council this year. That's led them to be able to invest in software and will effectively make them more productive, so that's been very well received there. And just in line with the Deputy Minister's last points there, Helgard, the chief exec of the Welsh books council, is on the Creative Wales board as well, so we've got really good join-up and synergy, and it's really pleasing to see the progress that they are making as an organisation under Helgard's leadership.

Okay, thank you for that. Deputy Minister, I had a discussion yesterday with a constituent about some historical books, so I'll be sure to send them your way for your reading, in time, when you've got time.

Yes, I'll have time to read after the end of this parliamentary session, whenever that will be.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Can I just start by declaring any possible interest, because my daughter has got a degree in Welsh, and may well be entering the world of working in the Welsh language area? So, can I just put that on the record—that questions I ask may have a benefit for my daughter in the future? I just wanted to make that clear.

I've got, really, two questions. The first one is, what are we trying to do within expenditure on the Welsh language—increase its use by those who speak it and increase the numbers speaking it. Now, I'm a great fan—the Minister knows, and some others do—of things like Cymraeg i Blant, so getting children to learn it at a young age, but also things like Twrw Tawe in my constituency, where you have young people in their teens engaging in leisure activities through the medium of Welsh, outside the sort of formal areas. In terms of the Welsh language budget expenditure line, will those continue to be supported at least at the same level as they are now?

Well, first of all, can I just encourage your daughter to help us with our situation, in terms of the need to have more Welsh language teachers in Wales? We'd be very thrilled to welcome her into that fold.

In terms of where we're at, in terms of maintaining the situation relating to things like Cymraeg i Blant, then I can give you an assurance that that will continue to be the case. What's really interesting is the way that lots of these organisations have adapted during the pandemic. So, things like Cymraeg i Blant, they've done a lot of their work online, and some of the figures are quite incredible—500,000 people participating in Cymraeg i Blant activities or, at least, accessing them. These are some quite incredible numbers. And I think the fact that people have managed to switch to online activities has been hugely helpful. The same thing is true for Y Ganolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol. So, that's the situation, and I'm sure we'll want to talk a little bit about the situation there, but they've switched to online learning—that has been really helpful. And, of course, sometimes you can get savings from switching to online learning.

I think we've all learnt during this pandemic that there's a real new way of communicating and maintaining contact. Certainly, as somebody representing Mid and West Wales, this has been a revelation to me. I won't have to do the four-hour's driving to meet six people in future in the way that I have. I can meet a lot more people and lot more regularly through doing things online. So, I think everybody's learnt something.

And the other thing that I think is worth emphasising is that we've all recognised the need to invest in technology, and the importance of technology and why it is essential that the Welsh language understands the importance of keeping up with technology. And that's why I'm really delighted that we've not only started on our Welsh language technology plan, but we have managed to produce a document, before Christmas, demonstrating how we've actually moved things on during this very difficult time. 

As the Minister knows, the BBC are now putting out a lot of programmes during the day to help people—children and parents mainly, but aimed at children, both primary and secondary level. S4C have not done that. So, speaking as a grandparent of children in a Welsh-medium school, continually, we always start off one or two steps behind. If you want to see these programmes, which are very well-made, you have to watch them in English. Has the Minister had any discussion with S4C—because I have, without any success—regarding them repeating what's happening in English on S4C during the day aimed at children? 

Well, I think, if you look at the BBC, it's only this week they're really rolling out the very comprehensive resources that they have available. So, it's only this week they're starting, and I can assure you that S4C is doing the same thing now. So, that is a step that is happening now, because there is a huge amount of resources that they have at their disposal. But, of course, we already have resources on Hwb and it's been great to see how people have used that.

One of the real concerns I had during the pandemic was to give assurance and reassurance to people who sent their children to Welsh language schools from non-Welsh speaking families and we needed to keep up the confidence of those parents. And we've done a lot of work with Professor Enlli Thomas from Bangor University to try and calm the fears of parents who send their children to Welsh schools from non-Welsh speaking homes. So, we've been doing a lot of work on trying to provide that online support, on Hwb and other platforms, and we're now working with Rhieni Dros Addysg Gymraeg, who are the Parents for Welsh Medium Education, on a new targeted support programme to address the needs of non-Welsh speaking parents who have those children in Welsh education schools. 

I know education will be discussed by other people later on, I will forward you the correspondence that I had from S4C. Final question from me is: you reduced by £0.2 million or £200,000, which makes it sound like an awful lot more, funding for the National Centre for Learning Welsh. What is the logic behind it? 

I tell you what's happened here is 1) they've done a lot more learning online, which has been incredible. They've got incredible standards—the canolfan dysgu Cymraeg—but they have, as a result of that, managed to make some savings. So, I can give you assurance though that there won't be any reduction in terms of front-line delivery. So, this is about efficiency savings effectively, and what's great is we've managed to use that—we're going to ring-fence that funding that we've saved there to help with the development of a new kind of foundation for the Welsh language in terms of what we call, 'seilwaith' or infrastructure, really, to support the Welsh language. 

I remember, a few years ago, I got a message from one of the universities to say, 'Look, we can't afford to continue paying for a Welsh language dictionary' that they were hosting. And I just thought, 'My God, this is so serious—you can't afford to lose your basic infrastructure'. So, I'm really keen to make sure that we do something to support basic infrastructure so that there is never any risk to undermining the dictionaries and things. So, we're going to be doing a bit more in that space and I'll be making some announcements on that, I think, towards the end of February.

—and I'm looking forward to being able to, one day, scrutinise the Minister. Unfortunately, I can't do that quite yet. Minister, if I could turn to Welsh in education, and we've discussed this morning already the shift to online and online resources. I wonder if you could expand on how the allocation for the Welsh in education budget expenditure line, which remains unchanged from the final budget of last year, reflects the need for rapid developments of teaching and learning resources in Welsh, both hard copy resources, but particularly digital. And I just want to note what the Welsh Language Commissioner has said, and I quote,

'There is a lack of digital Welsh language resources for all age groups, from nursery right through to further and higher education.'

Just in terms of the education resources, one of the things we're of course now very focused on is making sure that the resources are available for the new curriculum and we will make sure that there are resources, not just available for Welsh language, but also for the teaching and learning of Welsh history and culture, and also that we need to make sure that resources are available for post-16 vocational learners and apprenticeships. And I know how much you support the apprenticeship programme.

Just in terms of the gaps, we accept that there are gaps, but there have been huge strides that have been made. With the WJEC and the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, and others, we've ensured that there is access, free of charge, to Welsh language books, to television programmes, and particularly to those blended learning resources that you're championing. There is a lot of information available on Hwb—and I know this because I check it out now and again, just to see how easy it is. Up until lockdown, up until last year, I've been teaching a couple of children Welsh on Sunday evenings, and those resources are really quite valuable and very useful. So, I can testify that those resources are there. But of course, there is new information and new resources that are being added, practically on a daily basis. So, that resource is being added to. And of course, there is now this extra £1 million that's been given to the curriculum review for bilingual resources, so that will be additional funding that is available there.

Sorry, Jack, but Helen Mary Jones wanted to come in briefly, if that's okay with you.

Just very briefly, thinking about resources available for delivering the new curriculum, this committee has heard from the national library that they have a whole range of resources that they could make available if the resources were there for them to be able to digitise some of their content. It's particularly relevant in terms of the teaching of Welsh history, but there are lots of other potential uses. So, I just want to suggest to the Minister, really, if she will have some conversations with Dafydd Elis-Thomas, as the Minister directly responsible, and with Kirsty Williams, as the Minister for Education, to see if there could be some pooled resources across departments. I'm thinking here particularly about resources through the medium of Welsh, obviously, in the context of this discussion, but also more broadly, to support a diverse range of resources for teaching Welsh in ways that are particularly appropriate for different communities across Wales.

Diolch yn fawr, Helen. I can confirm that there has been a significant amount of money put into digitisation of the resources in the national library in recent years. But you're right, maybe we need to consider targeting onto educational resources that would be useful. That is something that I'll take away and maybe discuss with the national library, just in terms of how we prioritise, because there is a wealth of information there that needs to be digitised. But that is an ongoing process, and has been going on for a number of years.

In that context, the other thing that I've been really pushing hard on with S4C is to see if we can use their—you know, they've got so much footage now, that runs over 40 years or so; can we chunk some of their information up and use that for the curriculum? So, that is a conversation that I've been having now for a while with S4C, and they're very keen to do that. I'm just really pleased that they're bringing this information now and they're putting it on mainstream S4C. But I think, probably with the new curriculum, there are opportunities to use S4C's output and maybe see how we can pleat that into use in the curriculum—especially history programmes, and things like that; there's just fantastic information that's available there.

Diolch. Jack Sargeant.

Thanks, Chair. Minister, you mentioned in response earlier the additional £1 million allocated in the curriculum and assessment BEL—so, there's an opportunity here if you want to expand any further on that. But can I just move on to the milestones in 'Cymraeg 2050'? That is to increase the number of primary school and secondary school teachers who can not only teach Welsh, but also through the medium of Welsh. Can you let the committee know what discussions you have had with the Minister for Education about the limited progress on these targets?

I have regular meetings with the Minister for Education, and this is always an area where we are focused. I can assure you it's not through lack of effort; we are throwing everything at trying to get more Welsh language teachers. You'll be aware that there's already that incentive—the £5,000 incentive—to try and increase the pipeline of prospective Welsh teachers. You'll know that there's a programme now to try and convert maybe some teachers who are able to teach through the medium of Welsh in primary to secondary teachers, where there is a particular problem to try and recruit there. We're trying to make sure that more people undertake Welsh language A-level—so, there's a direct link between the number of people who take Welsh language A-level and the number of people who go into teaching Welsh. There's a £150,000 programme that's going on there. There's a huge marketing campaign that has occurred and is renewed fairly regularly.

I know that the Minister for Education has recently had very positive meetings with the Welsh Language Commissioner and the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol to discuss our plans for increasing the number of Welsh-medium teachers and supporting all teachers to develop their Welsh language ability. You'll be aware of the sabbatical programme, which is again trying to increase the numbers. So, I can assure that this is not through lack of effort; it's not through a lack of ideas. It's one of the appeals that I make very regularly—that if you've got any more ideas for what more we can do in this space, then let us know, because this is a problem for all of us. We're doing all we can, but it's not shifting in the way that we would like it to. So, we're doing our very best. It's less of a problem with primary teachers than it is with secondary teachers.

Thanks, Minister. I think you're right; this is a problem for all of us and collaboration is clearly needed to get us to where we want to be. You've mentioned the sabbatical scheme a couple of times now, and I apologise if I missed this in your earlier answer, but could you confirm when the evaluation report on the sabbatical scheme will be published and whether there is any contingency funding as a result of any changes made to how that scheme is delivered?

Unfortunately, because of the pandemic, we've had to delay the evaluation report, but we're hoping that that's going to be published in February. I think that will make some interesting reading. Because it's an expensive programme, if we're honest, so we need to really work out value for money, how many people, if it's working well. I know that many of the people who take part in it absolutely sing its praises. So, I'm really looking forward to seeing how that works. But also, of course, it's been really interesting to see how that scheme has had to switch onto online. So, that blended learning has become an increased feature, and it will be really interesting to see how we can perhaps build that into any future programmes.

Thank you. One final question from me, Minister, and it's about the £1.65 million allocated within the teacher development and support BEL, which is obviously used to deliver the sabbatical scheme. Do you believe that continues to be sufficient for increasing the number of teachers able to teach through the medium of Welsh?

I think it's probably worth just underlining the purpose of the sabbatical scheme. First of all, it's to improve the Welsh language skills of practitioners in English-medium primary schools. I've been to some English-medium primary schools where, frankly, there's almost nobody in the school who has any Welsh language skills whatsoever. There is a gap there that we need to fill, and so this is an opportunity to do that. The second key aim is to improve, in Welsh-medium or bilingual settings, the skills of teachers in those settings to give them more confidence in their Welsh language abilities. There are lots of people who have gone through Welsh-medium schools now, who perhaps haven't spoken it for years and just need to brush up. There's a lot of space there. And also, there are areas of Wales where people just lack the confidence in their Welsh language abilities, despite the fact that actually they're fine and their Welsh language standard—certainly their spoken language—is absolutely fine. So, it's just about brushing them up so that they're more confident to be able to use it in writing and things.

That £1.65 million is there for this scheme, but on top of that, there's an additional £2 million in the raising school standards BEL. That's also for the sabbatical scheme. So, in total, it's not £1.65 million, it's actually £3.65 million. You can put those two together, but they're basically coming from different budgets. And then, of course, there's that additional funding now to raise school standards. There's funding also in the regional consortia. They've got about £2.7 million to raise standards, and that's to raise standards on Welsh-medium professional learning. So, all of those added together—altogether it comes to about £6 million to improve the teaching of Welsh in our schools amongst teachers who are already in the workplace.

Diolch yn fawr, Minister.

You touched in your opening remarks, Minister, on the Welsh Language Commissioner and the situation with some of the IT matters. In terms of the Welsh Language Commissioner budget expenditure line and some of that capital investment to help with IT, we know that currently there are problems with the systems. So, do you anticipate the need for additional funding and support from Welsh Government to overcome those difficulties?

Well, we've had a situation where, obviously, there was that cyber attack before Christmas on the Welsh Language Commissioner's IT system. It's caused a lot of issues and, obviously, there's a criminal investigation and all kinds of things ongoing at the moment. But just to make it clear, I've been in touch with him and we have given a lot of support from the Welsh Government to try and help him through this really difficult time. So, we've provided, for example, lots of laptops and made sure that our experts in the Welsh Government have been able to talk them through the difficulties that they're going through at the moment. The real tragedy of this, of course, is that we had provided that additional capital for them to upgrade their system last year; we'd provided £385,000. They'd gone out to tender, but the process hadn't kicked in before they had the cyber attack. So, the real tragedy here is that things were in train to try and make sure that this wouldn't happen, and then they just didn't get there in time. So, I am very aware that we need to keep an eye on this situation. We still are not absolutely clear about the extent of the damage that's been caused. And so, until we know that, it's very difficult for us to say whether there will be need for additional help or support. But I'm very open-minded. If that should be the case, then, of course, we'll have to consider that, because this is obviously a very unique situation.

Okay. In terms of the evidence that we heard from the commissioner, when we were scrutinising him on his annual report, Minister, he made it clear that they were in quite a difficult situation in terms of demands increasing but their resources, particularly in terms of staffing, decreasing, and that these budget proposals would ask for a return to the full complement of staffing that they had enjoyed. So, given that a flat budget would be a real-terms decrease for the commissioner's work, how confident are you that we won't see a further impact in terms of the efficiency of the service provided? Because that's a real anxiety for the commissioner in terms of the evidence that we heard.

I think what's more likely to be a problem in terms of efficiency, I'm afraid, is the potential impact of the cyber attack. So, that's the thing we've got to keep an eye on. Lots of us have had flat budgets and we've had to kind of cut our cloth as a result of the difficult situation we find ourselves in. But the other thing is that the pandemic has forced us all to work very differently. So, the Welsh Language Commissioner, for example, has offices scattered around Wales. Well, a lot of that travelling between places now, a lot of that will be able to be cut down because we've learnt how to use new technology. So, there also opportunities that have arisen here, and we'll obviously continue to have those regular discussions with the commissioner to make sure that he can fulfil his functions under the Welsh language Measure. But I guess the issue, then, is to make sure that he's focused on the absolute key things that he needs to focus on.

I think Prosiect 2050 perhaps creates some space for us to step into some of those areas where he has been doing some work, but, actually, we've got an approach within Government now that maybe allows us to fill some of those spaces. Obviously, nothing to do with regulation—that's his space; he's got to be independent. But I guess— . There's an opportunity, I suppose, to let go of some areas where he was working where he may not need to do that work because we now have Prosiect 2050 to fill that gap.

Okay. I know we're coming on to Prosiect 2050, Minister. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Yes, I wanted to bring us on to Prosiect 2050, and you said in your evidence paper that the aim is to mainstream Cymraeg 2050 across all Welsh Government portfolio areas. Can you tell us how that's going? Obviously, I think we'd all accept that, given the impact of the pandemic, getting people to do that longer term thinking across departments may be harder, but how is that progressing? Is it easier in some departments than others? And can you tell us more about the way that Prosiect 2050 will impact in this, in that strategy to embed Cymraeg 2050 across departments?

Yes. The big difference here is that there's a very clear language planning strategy. So, we're going to make sure that we look at empirical evidence to drive the changes that we want to see. There are examples of where things have started to change and where we've seen a significant difference. So, if you look at, for example, the developments in terms of digital, there's a lot of work being done on digital renewal within the Welsh Government—making sure that there are opportunities, for example, for the public to interact much more readily through digital channels. And we're going to be making sure that local authorities have those. It's kind of just modernising Government, really, but we are absolutely now a foundational part of that change that is happening. It's actually easier when you're starting something new, and that digital approach is an example where we are there right from the beginning. So, you're building it in so it doesn't have to be an add-on, and that's our vision for where we'd like to go with anything new, obviously.

There are other examples of where—. What we need is to get people across Government, particularly in leadership positions, to understand that they have a responsibility to lead in a bilingual country. And so one of the things we're doing, for example, with Academi Wales, is we've developed a course for leaders within the Welsh Government, and also leaders across the public sector, to understand their responsibilities in relation to the Welsh language. There are a lot of leaders who don't speak Welsh, and we need to make sure that they have a much better understanding of what it is, why it's so important, and why it needs to be absolutely mainstream. So, that's something that is also happening already.

But there are other things where we're able to perhaps go down a few levels. So, if you think—. Newport council is a great example where, actually, for a time, there was a slight degree of resistance in terms of the Welsh language—John Griffiths will be able to testify to this—but, actually, they've been really transformed in the past year or so; they've really turned over a new approach to the Welsh language. And one of the things that we've been doing with them—. They're going to open a school—John will, I'm sure, testify to this—in an area where there's a lot of ethnic communities, and we've been working with them to talk about how you encourage people to engage in this, what's the language that you use to try and encourage people. So, we've done a lot of research in this space, and it might be interesting, actually, to invite Jeremy Evas to talk a little bit about this. There's a danger that people see it—the Welsh language—as something that divides us, and we need to talk about it belonging to all of us, that we do this together. There are some key words that we need to use, and it's that kind of empirical approach to what works, testing it out with the public, and then using it to drive change that is critical to this Prosiect 2050. I don't know, Chair, if you'd like to invite Jeremy, who's, obviously, in charge of Prosiect 2050, just to say a few words in this space.

Yes. Jeremy Evas.

That's helpful. Obviously, that's got resource—. So, the training, for example, has got resource implications, and there'll be lots of other things that Welsh Government departments will need to do differently or do adapt, as well as the brand—what people say about the Welsh language when people who care about the Welsh language are not in the room. Can you tell us a bit more, Minister, about how that work's going to be resourced? Is there a discrete budget for Prosiect 2050, or is it something that needs to come out of everybody's budgets? How's that going to be managed and, again, putting that context in the question of knowing that this is a very challenging time for budgets anyway, and more challenging still because of the COVID crisis.

Mike Hedges, did you have something you quickly wanted to ask? I think I saw your hand.

Very quickly, we talk about the number of people speaking Welsh, but isn't the key having large numbers in a community? I speak Welsh very poorly, as the Minister is well aware, but if I go to Caernarfon, I speak Welsh, because 80 per cent of the people speak it there; it's the language of the community. I speak it in chapel, because it's a Welsh-medium chapel, and everybody speaks Welsh. I don't speak it on the street, and I think that either small groups in the community or the total community are the key. I'll give you a prediction now: in the 2021 census, there'll be more Welsh speakers in Monmouthshire than there were 100 years ago. I'll also give you a prediction in some of the areas like Ynys Môn; there'll be fewer Welsh speakers there than there were 10 years ago. That really is where the danger—and Ceredigion the same—the danger is that we end up with 25 per cent of the people across Wales speaking Welsh and nobody talking it.